Discussion - Dev Diary: Designing Day Jobs Feature
By
Aisynia,
Posted on: 2008-10-09 16:16 in Developers' Corner
Yeah, Gothika, that is exactly my take on badging.
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Now, because they tied badges to the system, they bring in a completely different set of competing criteria that it now is a sizable barrier to badge completists
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You can't tell people "be a collector, of some stuff." That's incompatible with the collector mindset, and a good game designer should acknowledge the target audience they are targetting.
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Are you sure most collectors are also completists? There can be value to collecting something, without the goal of collecting all of something. I know a lot of collectors who do not and will not ever have all of something and they still seem happy with their collecting hobby, but I do not know enough of psychology to say which way is the best here.
Completists might get alienated by a system where they can't collect it all, but I and all of my SG mates still collect badges here and there, and not just for the powers and other rewards, even though I think we only have one or two completists amongst us (one for sure, but they seem OK with the fact that it will take a very long time for them to complete, and the other I think is a closet completist).
Perhaps the target is collectors, not completists. That may or may not be a good choice, I have no idea if there is even a real distinction, but it seems to me there is one.
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That's me. I like getting badges and I go out of my way to get them when I can, but I'm under no illusion that I'll ever have them all and some of them just aren't worth the time for me to get. I'm fine with that. I don't need them all, let alone need them all right this second! I like that there'll always be another badge to go find. I think I would be disappointed if there ever came a point when there were no more badges to get.
Honestly, I think even the completists would be disappointed if there ever came a time when they didn't have another badge to shoot for. If Positron came out and said "Ok, we've run out of ideas for badges so we won't be adding any more to the game" would there really be people who feel "Ah, now I have all the badges, my character is complete"? What would such a person do with their character at that point?
There will always be new badges added to the game so the 'badge bar' will always be raised. The Day Job system, like the Vet Reward system, is just more overt about letting people see that. Even if they reduced the time to get the current job badges, they'll probably just add more anyway. It's a system designed for Sisyphus.
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Bolded part that expresses my deepest philosophy of badging.
...and while I have your attention:
BRING BACK FEMALE NIPPLES IN I14 !!!
That's something we can all agree on 
I'm not crazy on the rewards for not logging in.
I'm even less crazy about the idea of the double experience. I go out of my way NOT to long in on double XP weekends. I hate the idea of not earning every single iota of XP I receive (ie I hate stuff I do not earn myself. Free stuff... bleah!).
That may put me in the minority, but to me, I prefer to create my 50s by earning every bit of XP the hard way. No "express elevators" like PLing or Double XP Weekends for me.
So the idea of being handed free stuff for having not logged in... not my cup of tea.
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Playing being the major point here. If you gain only for NOT PLAYING it defeats the point of RPG.
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You gain far, far more for playing the game than you ever would for not.
And if you base your roleplay around having an Accolade/badge that says 'Police Chief', then you're doing it wrong.
EDIT: Was there this kind of uproar over earning XP for dropping a mission? I didn't have to work for that XP! Take it away!
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
I heard it said somewhere, if you think you're leveling up to fast, earn some debt to take care of that problem, lol
or play at Villainous your whole trek to 50
or use Ouroboros to catch the contacts you missed
or exemplar down with lower level friends before you get out of their range
or do a leveling pact
or focus on soloing over teaming
did I miss anything?
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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jeeeez 30 freakin days?? screw that, not even gonna touch the day job thing.
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Now now now now! I want everything NOW!
Does that sound like you? 
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Not really. There are quite a few numbers between 30 and zero (even if you just stick to integers).
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But regardless, giving rewards away for not playing is a weak and desperate tactic that I had hoped CoH/V would have been bigger than. I don't blame the developers for the <more bleeping!>-up that is Day Jobs; I blame marketting.
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I don't agree with this at all. That said, it seems to me that there should be an option to "opt out" of Day Job rewards for folks who don't want to participate.
Global name: @k26dp
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I don't agree with this at all. That said, it seems to me that there should be an option to "opt out" of Day Job rewards for folks who don't want to participate.
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There is an opt out option (except for the Patrol XP), don't log out in a 'Job Area' .
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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jeeeez 30 freakin days?? screw that, not even gonna touch the day job thing.
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Now now now now! I want everything NOW!
Does that sound like you?
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Not really. There are quite a few numbers between 30 and zero (even if you just stick to integers).
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Yeah, the comments that are basically saying, "If 30 days is too long for you then that must mean you want it instantly!" hold no water. Lowering the requirement to 15 days still gives the badges/accolades/powers a level of commitment and should placate those that somehow think wanting to get badges in a reasonable timeframe is greedy.
Nobody is asking for these things to be rewarded instantly. It's just that 30 days is simply too long. The devs need to be more reasonable on this one.
"...freedom isn't a commodity to compromise." -- Captain America, New Avengers #21
Guide to Base Teleporters
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I'm curious...what MMOs put your xp on a cooldown to encourage alts? I've seen that bandied about in this thread, and can't think of any that I've tried that do it. (Which doesn't mean there isn't one; I'd honestly like to know which do.)
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WoW has their version "rested XP"
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Lord of the Rings online also has it (so theres #1 and #2 for MMO subscriber base). Been a while since I played, but I think Everquest II had it also.
In general its a leveling-the-field effect against heavy players. Play frequently and for long stretches and you build up less extra credit and play longer periods without the added reward.
And like most things in this issue, rewards playing alts, allowing lots of characters to increase their at rest credit while you flit from character to character like a humming bird using up that credit in small bursts of activity.
"Are you a min/maxer (even a novice one)? Then play multiple characters."
At this point is should have been "Issue 13: Alts-a-palooza" 
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Don't forget that these are just the first of the day jobs more will come in following issues. Not to mention the Issue 14 badges, Issue 15 badges and Issue 16 badges that won't be being earned by a badge collector while they are sitting off line to get the Issue 13 badges.
I could deal with a Single Job Badge like the Patron Badge or having the badges awarded on a 10 or 15 day cycle. If the Accolade bonus powers are a deal-breaker for the Devs I would just drop these bonus powers all together to get a shorter time frame for the Accolade badge. If the Accolade bonus is a big deal then link it to more than 2 day jobs to make 45 or 60 days to get the power.
I see a bow wave of badging time building up from this implementation that will discourage the collectors from even trying. And collectors are usually pretty hard core players as well. Badge Collection is one of the mini-games within CoX that attracts and retains players and this implementation in my opinion is a negative.
Collectors are part of the CoX community as are PvPers, RPers and just plain Gamers. They are just important as any of the other parts of the Community even if their views are different than your own.
Protector Server
Woeful Knight (BS/Regen/Body Scrapper)
Kevin Christian (MC/FF/Primal Controller)
SilverCybernaut (Eng/Dev/Munitions Blaster)
Apixie OhNo (Fire/Fire/Pyre Tanker)
Y'ru Glowen (Rad/Rad/Psy Defender)
It doesn't really reward people for playing alts either. You'd earn a lot more by playing the character.
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As for opting out, you can not use any of the active powers granted, and everything else is fairly small.
People seem to think they'll be losing entire levels. You are earning EXP at double the rate, not getting free EXP. And only one bubble for 24 hours (up to ten bubbles). You're not gonna be speeding by much content.
For those that think 30 days is too long, what are your playtimes?
Myself, I tend to play A LOT because I work from home and hop on to do a little gaming every now and then. It will take me forever and a freaking day to get this on my namesake since I can log in for a Katie, log out then log in to to do some crafting.
At my rate of downtime...maybe logged out...14-18 hours a day (being very generous here) so...98 hours of learning per week. That's about 3 or so days of offline progression...eek that's two months to get one month!
Well, I guess I'm saying 'bye!' to my main so I can get these as soon as possible and then logging her back in. This is going to kill my marketeering though. 
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
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You know, in the end, devs could simply award every job badges right after I13 go live. That way badgers that lack patience would already have all their shinies.
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God, you really do completely miss the point don't you? Badge-hunters don't want everyone in the game to just abruptly have 12 more badges. That just dilutes the %-of-accomplishment value of every real badge.
Essentially badge hunters want every badge to represent a modest amount of work you can accomplish as a facet of playign the game. That's why the Veteran rewards are annoying, why time-in-zone ones are mildly irritating and why these are outright offensive. A good badge collection says "I've played this game, and played it quite a bit and fairly well." These new ones have no meaningful acquisition strategy to them and seen in and amongst their tropies for playing all aspects of the game will now be a big poo-category saying "I spent a lot of time NOT playing the game."
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"We gave you all the badges! Why you not happy? They dont work? Is that important for you? I thought you cared more about the badge itself than the power attached to it?"
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Here, lets clear that up for you: Don't care in the slightest about the powers. Didn't want any badge "given" to us. Want badges that can be earned by our own efforts in the game rather than watching the turning of the hands of a clock.
But you keep trying to mock what you obviously don't understand. This game clearly has such a massive fan base that it can readily absorb some folks being dismissive of their fellow players having found a way to enjoy a sense of accomplishement from the game for a while longer after you realize there are only about 6 mission goals in the whole game [/dripping sarcasm].
I'm curious...
The dev diary states (about the Professor Day Job) that "This bonus will take 10 days of log out time to earn 2 hours worth of this bonus.".
Does this bonus gradually accrue, or is it a threshold situation where the entire award is given at the end of those 10 days?
i.e. if I spend 5 days offline, do I get 1 hours worth of the bonus, or will I have to wait until I've spent 10 days offline at which point I will be given 2 hours worth of the bonus?
If it's the former (and "Most rewards take 10 days of logged out time to reach the maximum benefit." can be interpreted as suggesting just that), then each hour of offline time is worth 2/10/24*60 = 0.5 minutes worth of bonus.
So, if a character is played 4 hours per day (thus spending 20 hours per day offline), they would earn 10 minutes worth of bonus per day.
The thing is, there is usually some amount of "dead time" when you first log on a character. You may say a few words to friends, maybe do a quick check of the Market, get from the Day Job location to the mission, etc... You may also want to find a team, and if you are going to play with friends, all of you may not log on at exactly the same time.
This all eats into those 10 minutes.
Many (most) of these bonuses also trigger upon mission completion, so in order to get a benefit you will need to finish at least one mission in what remains of those 10 minutes.
Basically, this would in many cases seem to lead to what is effectively no-gain situations (as opposed to non-optimal gains) for characters that are played daily.
So, do the bonuses gradually accrue, or is it a threshold sitution where the entire award is given at the end of the 10 days? If they gradually accrue, is this the intended behavior?
So, let me get this straight:
You've been collecting coins for 4 years; something you picked up from dad or grandad or uncle... and they decide they want to impart their collection to you... either all at once or maybe 1 coin at every christmas and/or birthday...
Or grandma Betty signed you up for a coin of the month club...
This would offend you?
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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I'm not crazy on the rewards for not logging in.
I'm even less crazy about the idea of the double experience. I go out of my way NOT to long in on double XP weekends. I hate the idea of not earning every single iota of XP I receive (ie I hate stuff I do not earn myself. Free stuff... bleah!).
That may put me in the minority, but to me, I prefer to create my 50s by earning every bit of XP the hard way. No "express elevators" like PLing or Double XP Weekends for me.
So the idea of being handed free stuff for having not logged in... not my cup of tea.
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Cool... so now you can find creative ways to gather debt prior to logging off. While you are away from the game it will be burning off the debt before you can receive any XP.
And to those who are saying, "Maybe they can treat them like the Patron badges" Uhm...why not just make the choice NOT to have to get more than one?
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As for people worried that this won't get tested during Beta... you forget we have access to Mender Silos, Ouroboros, and the Pillar of Ice and Flame... we can manipulate time. It's a perk.
(For those who do get into beta, you will notice that the "Time to Earn" is DRAMATICALLY reduced, for exactly the reason of testing the rewards and badges. Around the time of Open Beta, the times will be restored to a far less accelerated state, and we can ensure those are working before we go to Live)
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I understand your vast powers of time manipulation, Posi. It just seems a little odd to adjust the "time to earn" of Day Jobs based on Beta, when either the time to earn you test will be entirely ficticious, or the beta will not go long enough to actually test it. Either way, I'm not seeing how the beta experience will contribute any useful data points for the earning rate (I'm sure it will help test the jobs themselves).
For myself, I like collecting badges where I can but I long ago stopped trying to be a completist. So in that sense I don't mind the 30 day timer. But it does seem like a very long time to wait, too long to be something I'm actively working towards. It takes some of the fun out of the system knowing that I'll only be able to play with it in the month (or two for accolades) after I decide to acquire it.
To be honest, the system feels a little disjointed. On the one hand, the powers and badges associated with it encourage people to get all of them. On the other hand, the long timers and the fluff nature of "day jobs" encourage people to pick one or two and stick with them. I guess that might allow different types of players to each find something good in the system, but I think it's more likely to result in widespread disatisfaction.
-D
Darkonne: Pinnacle's (unofficially) mighty Dark Miasma/Radiation Blast enthusiast!
Be sure to check out this mighty Arc:
#161865 - Aeon's Nemesis
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It doesn't really reward people for playing alts either. You'd earn a lot more by playing the character.
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You'd gain more on that character by only playing that character, but your "total rewards" would be higher if you split your time between characters.
i.e if you are going to play two characters to level 50, then all other things being equal you would get there faster if you alternate between playing the two.
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People seem to think they'll be losing entire levels. You are earning EXP at double the rate, not getting free EXP. And only one bubble for 24 hours (up to ten bubbles). You're not gonna be speeding by much content.
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That would depend on how much you play the characters in question.
For people who tend to spread their time among many characters, it is not hard to end up in a situation where you will spend a significant fraction of the time in double-XP mode (something you can mitigate by altering your playing patterns, i.e. start playing those characters in longer blocks of time, but that may not be desirable for everyone).
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jeeeez 30 freakin days?? screw that, not even gonna touch the day job thing.
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Now now now now! I want everything NOW!
Does that sound like you?
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Not really. There are quite a few numbers between 30 and zero (even if you just stick to integers).
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Agreed, I don't want everything "now now NOW!" I just want it in a reasonable amount of time. I'd also like to, y'know, earn them through playing the game, but that's apparently that's not going to happen. 
Yes, I'm heal farming. I hate it. Everybody I've spoken to in heal farms has basically said that they're only doing it because it's the only option they have to get the badge. (I had the medicine pool for over a year and only got about 3/4 the way to the first healing badge, which itself isn't even 1/100th of the final badge.) Pretty much everyone agrees that it's not the fact that it takes 6+ months to *ahem* "earn," it's that you earn it by not playing--and if you're not playing, then you're not having fun.
I would probably shut up completely if the badges were reduced to 10 days, and complain significantly less if they were reduced to 15.
Or at the very least, my complaints would stop being about badging and get back to the fact that they're trying to get us to keep paying them to not play the game. Yes yes, I can make as many alts as I want... I've been here for over 4 years, I've made and deleted more alts than I can possibly remember. It's the characters that I have now that I care about, and I don't care to earn "free stuffs zomg!" for the time I'm not playing them, and especially don't want to be penalized for playing them.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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How does the counter work? If I am logged out for 8 hours do I get a 1/3 of a day credit, or do I need to be logged out the full day. I assume it's the first
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The counter is based on seconds, so every second you are logged out you are getting credit.
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Now I admit I havent taken much of an interest in this whole "day jobs" but that sounds very much like being rewarded for NOT playing your characters.....
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I don't agree with this at all. That said, it seems to me that there should be an option to "opt out" of Day Job rewards for folks who don't want to participate.
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There is an opt out option (except for the Patrol XP), don't log out in a 'Job Area' .
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There appears to be a least a few folks who don't even want that reward.
Global name: @k26dp
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How does the counter work? If I am logged out for 8 hours do I get a 1/3 of a day credit, or do I need to be logged out the full day. I assume it's the first
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The counter is based on seconds, so every second you are logged out you are getting credit.
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As always, you rock, Positron! Thanks!!