Discussion - Dev Diary: Designing Day Jobs Feature
By
Aisynia,
Posted on: 2008-10-09 16:16 in Developers' Corner
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My things is honestly that this is directed at badgers and its basically makes their mains detrimental to play. So fine, I'll keep my favorite toon thats also my badger perma-loged off. Probably start playing that new other COH knock off coming out, until I wonder why I'm paying for something that I get annoyed at for not really being able to play the toon I wanna.
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I think people need to wait and see how the implementation of this is done. I really don't think that you have to have 30 uninterrupted days of not logging in your character to earn the badge. In fact, I doubt that you have to have 30 single 24-hour consecutive periods where you don't log in the character, based on the wording of the announcement.
Most people don't spend 23.75 out of every 24 hours logged in with one character (to pick the most extreme example from this discussion). All the time that character is logged out, I would guess, will be counting, provided the character is positioned in the right place.
I don't think anyone is going to have to give up anything meaningful to get these badges, unless they absolutely have to get them as fast as possible. And I'll admit that I can't find much to sympathize with in that desire.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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Double XP does a level 50 how much good?
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Quite a bit. 50s still accumulate debt, and have to work that debt off before they can gain influence while exemplared down (such as during flashback missions).
Honestly, I think that's obvious enough that it must have been a rhetorical queston.
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Not as obvious as one might think since the announcement states:
"One thing to note is that if a player has any experience debt, the debt will be removed first before any double experience is applied"
Now, that's open to interpretation (debt is removed at 2X the rate without XP growth being earned, debt must be removed normally "saving" the double XP until you're debt free again, and so on and so forth). So, it may well be that 2xXP doesn't apply to debt and would, in that capacity, be useless to a 50 or it may be that a 50's debt is exempt from that statement.
That said, I have enough faith in the devs that they thought about this before anyone here mentioned it. I admit, I may be wrong about that, they do kinda have their hands full with 2 issues.
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I think people need to wait and see how the implementation of this is done. I really don't think that you have to have 30 uninterrupted days of not logging in your character to earn the badge. In fact, I doubt that you have to have 30 single 24-hour consecutive periods where you don't log in the character, based on the wording of the announcement.
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I just hope these things don't have the same problem the time badges in PvP zones had, where they'd wipe if you logged out (or left the zone) and reset to zero.
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Now, because they tied badges to the system, they bring in a completely different set of competing criteria that it now is a sizable barrier to badge completists
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You can't tell people "be a collector, of some stuff." That's incompatible with the collector mindset, and a good game designer should acknowledge the target audience they are targetting.
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Are you sure most collectors are also completists? There can be value to collecting something, without the goal of collecting all of something. I know a lot of collectors who do not and will not ever have all of something and they still seem happy with their collecting hobby, but I do not know enough of psychology to say which way is the best here.
Completists might get alienated by a system where they can't collect it all, but I and all of my SG mates still collect badges here and there, and not just for the powers and other rewards, even though I think we only have one or two completists amongst us (one for sure, but they seem OK with the fact that it will take a very long time for them to complete, and the other I think is a closet completist).
Perhaps the target is collectors, not completists. That may or may not be a good choice, I have no idea if there is even a real distinction, but it seems to me there is one.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Beyond the amount of time needed to get one, I have one very minor "gripe' about the Day Jobs. While we don't know a lot about the rewards, the main example they use seems strange:
"After an extended log out period, the Professor Day Job will grant you a random piece of tech salvage upon mission completion. This bonus will take 10 days of log out time to earn 2 hours worth of this bonus. However, once you earn the Professor badge you only need to be logged out 8 days to earn the 2 hour benefit instead of 10."
There just feels like there's something "off" intuitively about 8 Days = 2 hour reward. it's not that the reward time is small, it should be for the system, it just feels like a strange "exchange rate" for lack of a better term. If it was something like "10 days offline = 10 hours ability/power" it would make more intuitive sense (though I think the ability might be "overly strong" at that rate, but as an example, it will have to suffice).
It's 3 AM so I hope that makes some sort of sense.
jeeeez 30 freakin days?? screw that, not even gonna touch the day job thing.
RED CAP DAGGERS: if you want them red side on infinity, send a pm i have the mission to get them for dual blades.
I'm curious...what MMOs put your xp on a cooldown to encourage alts? I've seen that bandied about in this thread, and can't think of any that I've tried that do it.
WoW gives a bonus to experience for being "rested". Of course, this is interpreted by most as a penalty for not being rested.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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I think people need to wait and see how the implementation of this is done.
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No, we don't. We're responding to the situation propossed. If that sistuation changes between now and implimentation, great, we'll be dealing with what happens then. If they can change the game, I can change my opinon to keep up 
. But ignoring their statements now just because they aren't final actually deprives the Devs of important feedback on the system as the Devs themselves understand it currently.
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I really don't think that you have to have 30 uninterrupted days of not logging in your character to earn the badge.
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I'm entirely certani you don't have to do it consecutively. They've just (quite deliberately I believe) created a system the makes it the optimum badge-pursuit path to do so, hopefully while you are simultaneously play on of your alts. The emphasis on "make some alts" in this expansion is staggering. The leveling pacts are only for new characters. New powersets are always for new characters. The best path reaping day job rewards is to have lots of alts.
The Devs know that players who play lots of alts typically subscribe longer than players that take one character, run it through all the mission content ("finishing the game"), and move on. Flashbacks were an attempt to squeeze more out of the players that refused to switch to an alt - giving them the ability to see the missions they missed 'the first time through' improved the single character-only player's experience.
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I don't think anyone is going to have to give up anything meaningful to get these badges...
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Other than $180+ to re-complete their badge set or restore their percent accomplished ratio to the same level it is now . I don't expect to see the proposed acquisition values change at all between now and i13 going live no matter what we say. I just think the Devs' have over estimated a number of people's tolerance for carrots at the end of very long sticks. Especially ones with no strategy that accelerattes acquisition (other than don't play, which actually makes these WORSE than veteran badges for collectors).
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jeeeez 30 freakin days?? screw that, not even gonna touch the day job thing.
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You just have to log out in a certain spot each time you log out....
This ain't a bad thing people.
Wish it was more dynamic but whatever- probably go for the hosp and regen bonus.
Or the billy club power......
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
I like the system. Get some bonuses based on where you log out, and even with the badges you don't get the benefit permanently. You still have to log off. Some of the temp powers don't seem like a sure thing either. I don't know that 30 days is too long, but don't decrease it below 20 for sure (IMO). It will be nice to see some things that players don't blow through in a couple weeks. A lot of varied bonuses, I can see different characters picking different things and players preferring one to another. Adds a little RP in a way since you can't easily be 'everything'. I like it, especially since I don't get to play that often.
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i remember seeing some where that the day job badges were linked to costumes
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Day job badges are NOT linked to costumes.
The day job related costumes are free, unlocked at the start, content in Issue 13.
And the 30 days is what we are initially going with. The values may change in beta.
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I sure hope it does. No offense, but it's kind of absurd. That means for the badges you have LISTED, I have to log my main, my badge hunter, my favorite character out... for AT LEAST A YEAR.
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Maybe this is where devs made a mistake. Maybe they should have reduced the time required to get TWO of those badge for accolade but then prevented players to get any further badges from the collection.
It would have been like the Patron badges. Players would have to make a choice and live with it. So youd pick and work toward the bonus you want to have and stick with it. That way, players wouldnt have complained about needing 1 YEAR to get the badges.
Just make job badges exclusive after you earn two of them. So players only get 1 accolade in the end but theyll get it faster than 60 days.
From a RP point of view, it would also make some sense that a character cant have every jobs in the game...
And for those who say that such a system ( like Patron badges ) is screwing badgers, you should know by now that there already badges that are impossible to get ( like Celebrant, Elusive ) as of now. There are players that will never even have a chance to get every badges in game. So my point is maybe it never was intended for someone to get them all.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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jeeeez 30 freakin days?? screw that, not even gonna touch the day job thing.
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One can tell that the devs are really going to need to stress that whole non-consecutive part.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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jeeeez 30 freakin days?? screw that, not even gonna touch the day job thing.
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Now now now now! I want everything NOW!
Does that sound like you? 
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
1. It's an semi-optional system, if you don't like it, don't be an active participant in it and don't whine if you don't plan to use it (at least not continuously).
2. This system is not about badging... it has badges attached to it but the main point of interest are the powers/benefits that come with taking a breather. I cannot sympathize with those turning this into a badge-hoarding issue (the term hoarding being more appropriate than collecting from what I'm seeing)
3. Being that the system revolves around, what is essentially, free powers/benefits; then the current timing protocols are more than appropriate.
4. I've already determined, even before the list came out, that it would be set up so that getting all/most of these powers/abilities would take time and that I would not feasibly be able to get them all. So I made a mental note on what I hope would be available and compared it to the list when it was released. It's about prioritizing what abilities I would like to see on my toon(s) and now that the partial list is out, I've already made a plan of action for both my active and inactive toons.
5. The CoX day/night cycle is extremely disproportionate to RL time. What is it, 2 CoX days per RL hour (I don't know, maybe more/less) but at bare minimum you're looking at 24 CoX days per RL day with 30 RL days putting you at about 2 years of CoX time. That looks like a ton of leeway dictating how many jobs, internships, vocational and associate degrees a person could have stepped through in a year of RL (8640 CoX days/23 CoX years).
Personally, I've held 3 jobs at a time (2 jobs consistantly) for the better part of 10-15 years with changes in the job(s) from relocation and/or wage jockeying. Heck, between paper routes and summer programs (JTPA), I had burned through 7 between the time I was 12 and 18.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
I agree with Yogi 100% , on all of his points. The time should remain 30 days due to the rewards associated with the badges.
Maybe the devs can just add another tab next to accolades and acheviements and call it "Job Titles" to track job status, have no art work, just the title and description and possible progress bar of the different jobs.
Who knows , maybe that'll put a cork in the wine bottle.
These would be known as "Job Listings" , not badges.
~MM
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I'm curious...what MMOs put your xp on a cooldown to encourage alts? I've seen that bandied about in this thread, and can't think of any that I've tried that do it. (Which doesn't mean there isn't one; I'd honestly like to know which do.)
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WoW has their version "rested XP"
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I agree with Yogi 100% , on all of his points. The time should remain 30 days due to the rewards associated with the badges.
Maybe the devs can just add another tab next to accolades and acheviements and call it "Job Titles" to track job status, have no art work, just the title and description and possible progress bar of the different jobs.
Who knows , maybe that'll put a cork in the wine bottle.
~MM
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You know, in the end, devs could simply award every job badges right after I13 go live. That way badgers that lack patience would already have all their shinies.
However, none of the badges would be "activated". Badgers would still have to spend the offline time required to get the accolades and other bonuses.
Actually, i would find that hilarious if devs did that. Badgers would have no ground to complain lol.
"We gave you all the badges! Why you not happy? They dont work? Is that important for you? I thought you cared more about the badge itself than the power attached to it?" 
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
Yeah, that sounds like a plan, maybe they can just jump to the different areas and it would be a location badge to them. I think your on to something.
~MM
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I'm curious...what MMOs put your xp on a cooldown to encourage alts? I've seen that bandied about in this thread, and can't think of any that I've tried that do it. (Which doesn't mean there isn't one; I'd honestly like to know which do.)
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WoW has their version "rested XP"
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To which I think a developer here or elsewhere said...
"Why do I want to encourage people not to play my game?"
I have a splinter in my mind... and it feels like the pain of competition. A pre-emptive way to keep veterans who keep active accounts but don't log in as often from completely fading out? Data mining our log in habits?
I'm a badger but like gameplay more. I think one toon with all of these accolades, depending on recharge, is a bit much. I'm fine with it taking a year to get all of them from a gameplay standpoint alone.
However, I do badge and I'm friends with many badgers... a year of not playing is extreme for one update's goodies. I'd be happier with accolade requirements staying as is... but the badges that can be gotten from this not being so heavy (for mains, this will be a 1 1/2 to 2 year process unless someone finds a cheat... and someone always finds one lol).
Not so heavy meaning: Once you've gone through the process of getting to ONE Accolade and rested long enough to start all of the Day Jobs... you're done badging.
Thank you, City of Heroes, for giving me a superhero social network combined with amazingly smooth game play. Petitions signed with realistic expectations.
I think it's funny that people think the devs are going to force them to stay logged out of their main characters for 30 days consecutively or don't realize that you can opt out of the system already if you don't want a day job by just moving your toon around to different places before you log out, which is why I think the 30 day wait is needed to reassure people that they won't easily suffer the terrible fate of getting a badge or power they don't want.
Looks like people are also clamouring for a way to opt out of being On Patrol too if there isn't one already in place.
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I'm curious...what MMOs put your xp on a cooldown to encourage alts? I've seen that bandied about in this thread, and can't think of any that I've tried that do it. (Which doesn't mean there isn't one; I'd honestly like to know which do.)
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WoW has their version "rested XP"
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To which I think a developer here or elsewhere said...
"Why do I want to encourage people not to play my game?"
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Its all about balance, balance in PvP, PvE and RL...
No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded...
"The potato goes in the FRONT."
I said it before and I'll say it again, rewarding players for being offline brings with it all kinds of SUCK. Especially when you need to beoffline for like a year in total PER CHARACTER.
To quoat SYNDROME! from "The Incredables"
lame Lame LaMe LaME LAME LAME!
Did you guys ever hear of the game called "Eath and Beyond" probably not, and that's exactly my point! They had an "offline reward system" they lasted less then a year (i think) maybe less then two for sure!
Anyway, I guess *more* is always "better" but I can't help but COMPLAIN at the fact that this "new system" probably took them hundreds if not thousands of colective working hours to accomplish, and yet they still have yet to finish working on the Items of Power "content" they promised ON THE GAME BOX OF CoV OVER 2 YEARS AGO!
30 days?! Why would I want to put one of my heroes or villians on the bench for a whole month of payed play time. This is kinda a VERY long time to ask us to bench any character. And to get teh accolades it is 2 months...
Now I appreciate teh 24hrs=bar of double XP, although I think this too could be changed too 1hr=1 bar without hurting us, or making our game experience "to short."
The costumes are unlockable... again?! you have to be kidding... this is the third issue in a role where the costume options have to be unlocked somehow. The first time it was kinda, meh, ok I can manage that. But to unlock these costumes completely, I have to log my character out for 6 accolades! 12 MONTHS! of paid playtime to get all the new nifty costume elements...
New toons won't be able to dress as a civillian as well as a hero who hasn't been played in 12 months...
Please consider a new policy to give us the costume elements you guys make... rather then make us unlock it
Please consider shortening the time offline from a month to a week. Making the neccsary time investment 3 months instead of a year of offline time.
Please consider that we all have altitis in one form or another, but we also have main characters we want to run through new content and this is a easy way to make that hard.
Lastly, please consider that we pay for a game, adding content that basically tells us not to play a main character for a year, is kind of counter productive. We will forget nuances of the character, when we log him back in for combat, and we will basically have a shiny new way to suck...
This is a well thought out system, but I think it needs some user prespective.
To reiterate,
Badge Times are Too Long! (how are you planning on testing these on Test... o.O)
Costume Unlockables are no longer apprciated, some of us want to be able to be the Good Humor Man at level 1. This is definetly a slap to the costume editor junkies.
This is kind of a slap to badge collectors everywhere.
Thanks
~Elvnsword
PS Pardon my spelling, and my layout, practicing my interoffice email...
"when i can savagely beat sheep while issuing ultimatums and torturing people, then i may go back into it" -vara nocturne
Not enough Evil...
I take it back NC SOFT is enough evil for anyone...
QR
Wow, it's true. People on this board really can complain about anything. Considering that I've been in an MMO where your character's skills constantly degraded and it seemed like half the game was just running in place to keep what you had, I'm not going to complain about freebies.
For myself, I would only tweak it a little. I think the double xp bonus is overly generous, and I would trim the badge time back to roughly 25 days. That way if you were playing the alt regularly, your actual calendar earning time would be about a month.
And I have no problem with it taking time to earn all of them. This game is full of badges that can't be rushed, and there is nothing wrong with setting long-term goals.
"Home is where, when you have to go there, they have to let you in."
My things is honestly that this is directed at badgers and its basically makes their mains detrimental to play. So fine, I'll keep my favorite toon thats also my badger perma-loged off. Probably start playing that new other COH knock off coming out, until I wonder why I'm paying for something that I get annoyed at for not really being able to play the toon I wanna.