Discussion - Dev Diary: Designing Day Jobs Feature

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I am surprised over and over at how much people complain. This is suppose to be a mini-game to play while ur logged out. Not somethin u have to do as fast as possible, its extra stuff. Why does everyone want everythin instantly? I hear people complain about how that ruined other games becuase of people wantin everythin now now. Calm down it suppose to take time to get rewards, why dont u just complain it takes a year to get the 12 month badge and how bout the devs make it only 6 months while ur all at it. I think this is a sweet thing to add that gives us somethin in which we used to get nothin, not playin.

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It may surprise you, but people with a lot of badges were not given them all in a single day. We earned every single one of them. Some were easy, some took a while, some were a real challenge, such as the Arachnos Flier on villain side (although it is practically given to heroes...:P) and some took many many months. I think we are qualified to give an opinion on what seems like a reasonable amount of time to earn a reward. After all, what else are these message boards for, if not input?

It seems to me that they want day jobs to be given out for 30 days of inactivity. That is on the scale of the more epic badges, such as immortal or the fourth or fifth healing badge. Then you must earn another one for an accolade that rewards you with a minor temp power. I feel that maybe half of that time would be more commensurate to the time that needs to be put in.

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SadysCHICK ALL the Badges! (I can get. 1396)
Full image by David Nakayama
Arc ID 1435: Performing without Annette
Arc ID 7206: Sadystic Tendencies
Arc ID 3864: The Chronicles of (In)FERNIA!

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OK, let's say the time to get the badge was dropped to 5 days. But let's say there are 73 day jobs and 73 badges possible. That would still mean a full year for one character to get all 73 badges. Are you badgers going to ruin things for the rest of us who'd like to see a wide variety of day jobs, but the devs can't do that because it would upset impatient badgers?

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Well, if they separate the Day Job system from the Badge system, increasing the number of Day Jobs wouldn't get any complaints from the "Badge people".

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Or, if they just make the Day Job a SINGLE badge, and the various titles are awarded in similar fashion to the villain Patron badge. That way, you'd have a similar win-win approval while keeping it within the confines of the existing badge structure, rather than making a whole new structure (which arguably should be done) to accomodate this singular feature.

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And as for your other comment, about making 73 badges that take 5 days each? You'd hear a lot fewer complaints about that, because it's a time vs. reward equation.

73 rewards in a year > 12 rewards in a year

You get visible progress faster, and you can stay competitive with the rest of the badge community even if you want to play your badger here and there. Adding 4 hours to 120 still leaves a smaller lag than adding 4 hours to 720.

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Ehm, no.
You'd fall further behind.

Let's say that it's 10 or 100 rewards instead (for easier examples).
By the time you're 1 badge behind in the 10 badge system, you would be 10 badges behind in the 100 badge system. The gap between you and the really really hard core would increase.

A gap of one badge is easier to make up for with other badges than a gap of 10 badges is.

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Say you're in a prison (because let's face it: as an OCD gamer, that's pretty much what badges are to me at this point).

The warden gives you a choice between two options:

1) You can have 6 decent-sized meals a month, one every 5 days.
2) You can have a feast every 30 days.

(Also, every 2 meals you eat comes with a dessert to help tide you over to the next meal.)

You could manage to survive only eating a good meal once every 5 days. But how long would it take before you and the other prisoners (badgers) died out completely waiting for the thirty day feasts?

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Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093

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Another thing I want to mention, in case it hasn't come up already. Lowering the badge amount to 5 days would actually make the system somewhat inconvenient to a casual play with a lot of characters.

This means that the casual player has to log onto each character (easily 12 or so characters) more than once a week (6 times a month) and rearrange their characters (to take maximum advantage of the system). For 12 characters, logging in and out, traveling around, etc. you are easily looking at a half hour of time.

3 hours a month of swapping characters around to take advantage of an offline system seems somewhat ludicrous.

Feel free to debate my numbers, most of them were at random, but I think that they are a safe estimate.

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Sermon
@sermon
One of Six, Cannibal 6

I crown Chad the Forum King of Poignant Analogies. That really nails it down.

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Another thing I want to mention, in case it hasn't come up already. Lowering the badge amount to 5 days would actually make the system somewhat inconvenient to a casual play with a lot of characters.

This means that the casual player has to log onto each character (easily 12 or so characters) more than once a week (6 times a month) and rearrange their characters (to take maximum advantage of the system). For 12 characters, logging in and out, traveling around, etc. you are easily looking at a half hour of time.

3 hours a month of swapping characters around to take advantage of an offline system seems somewhat ludicrous.


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But, if they've got a driven NEED to do that for ALL their toons, they're not exactly casual, are they?

Good math, but bad point.

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And as for your other comment, about making 73 badges that take 5 days each? You'd hear a lot fewer complaints about that, because it's a time vs. reward equation.

73 rewards in a year > 12 rewards in a year

You get visible progress faster, and [color= orange]you can stay competitive with the rest of the badge community even if you want to play your badger here and there. Adding 4 hours to 120 still leaves a smaller lag than adding 4 hours to 720[/color].

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Ehm, no.
You'd fall further behind.

Let's say that it's 10 or 100 rewards instead (for easier examples).
By the time you're 1 badge behind in the 10 badge system, you would be 10 badges behind in the 100 badge system. The gap between you and the really really hard core would increase.

A gap of one badge is easier to make up for with other badges than a gap of 10 badges is.

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Say you're in a prison (because let's face it: as an OCD gamer, that's pretty much what badges are to me at this point).

The warden gives you a choice between two options:

1) You can have 6 decent-sized meals a month, one every 5 days.
2) You can have a feast every 30 days.

(Also, every 2 meals you eat comes with a dessert to help tide you over to the next meal.)

You could manage to survive only eating a good meal once every 5 days. But how long would it take before you and the other prisoners (badgers) died out completely waiting for the thirty day feasts?

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That is not a relevant example.

Will you get more frequent gratification (or nutrition)? Sure.
But that's not what I was talking about, and not the only thing you [color= orange]claimed[/color].

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But, if they've got a driven NEED to do that for ALL their toons, they're not exactly casual, are they?

Good math, but bad point.

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Grant me my point for the semi-casual player at least then?

3-day-a-week-ers with 7 50s like myself.

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Sermon
@sermon
One of Six, Cannibal 6

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Ok, how about this: Can the developers confirm that the double xp bars would double the INF that would normally be earned instead of XP, and the extra debt removal be equally increased at level 50?

It seems to me that all the rest of these rewards are meant for all characters, why would this be an exception?

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If the question is "why are some rewards valuable to a level 50 and why are some not?" that might seem like a reasonable question. But given the apparent design intent, the actual question being asked is ultimately "why would a reward explicitly intended to accelerate levelling not be meant for a level 50?" and in that event the answer is obvious.

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Actually I was not asking either of those questions. I was asking what happens when a level 50 which does the exact same activity (or lack thereof) as any other character. I do understand that you see this as a levelling tool. I don't.

Why specifically exclude a whole class of characters doing the same thing? It seems prejudicial.

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It does not appear to be a reward that just happens to involve XP. It seems to be a reward explicitly targetting levelling speed: the fact that its benefit accrues relative to "bars" of XP and not points of XP or minutes played means its intended to be a proportional levelling speed boost.

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Right now, each bar of XP is worth a set amount each level. Any XP at level 50 is converted to either INF or extra debt reduction. Why not this XP? This is, of course, assuming that it wasn't just left out of the announcement.

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Since there are rewards that 50s can get but not others (epic archetypes, purple recipes) I don't see any specific reason why every single reward must include level 50s as participants, especially when they are so specifically targeted at an activity that level 50s no longer participate in.

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Except that any level can get a purple drop. All the character has to do is sidekick to a level 50 and help beat up level 50+ mobs.

Yes, only level 50s can unlock the Epic ATs. They do this one time only per side. The developers have stated multiple times that will not happen again (other methods will unlock future ATs).

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It's another entirely to say, "I'd rather play Super Buffalo Man, but he's gotta work on that badge (or whatever reward you're going for), so to maximize his earnings, I'll play a different character that I'm really not as much in the mood to play."

"Doc, it hurts when I do <this>!"

"Don't do that, then. $15 copay!"

If you insist on torturing yourself, you have only yourself to blame.

And again: how much are you not "maximizing your earnings" by logging in a character for a few hours? No sympathy if you're keeping a character logged in on heal farms or whatnot. In that case you're choosing which badge you want to work on. It might take you 35 days instead of 30 to get a badge? Build a bridge and get over it.

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Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"

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But, if they've got a driven NEED to do that for ALL their toons, they're not exactly casual, are they?

Good math, but bad point.

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Grant me my point for the semi-casual player at least then?

3-day-a-week-ers with 7 50s like myself.

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I can't, though, because your argument makes the case that it's inconvenient for you to login and shuffle your toons. You CHOOSE to do that. You don't have to. If you want to remain casual, you can just login whenever and do it.

Or, if you MUST have all the badges on ALL of your toons, then choose to login and do the Harlem Shuffle.

I, for one, would only be shuffling one toon around for badge acquirement in a 5 day constriction. That'd be MUCH more relaxing than 30 days of not playing a toon. Sorry, Sermon, your point doesn't really fly there...

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And as for your other comment, about making 73 badges that take 5 days each? You'd hear a lot fewer complaints about that, because it's a time vs. reward equation.

73 rewards in a year > 12 rewards in a year

You get visible progress faster, and [color= orange]you can stay competitive with the rest of the badge community even if you want to play your badger here and there. Adding 4 hours to 120 still leaves a smaller lag than adding 4 hours to 720[/color].

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Ehm, no.
You'd fall further behind.

Let's say that it's 10 or 100 rewards instead (for easier examples).
By the time you're 1 badge behind in the 10 badge system, you would be 10 badges behind in the 100 badge system. The gap between you and the really really hard core would increase.

A gap of one badge is easier to make up for with other badges than a gap of 10 badges is.

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Say you're in a prison (because let's face it: as an OCD gamer, that's pretty much what badges are to me at this point).

The warden gives you a choice between two options:

1) You can have 6 decent-sized meals a month, one every 5 days.
2) You can have a feast every 30 days.

(Also, every 2 meals you eat comes with a dessert to help tide you over to the next meal.)

You could manage to survive only eating a good meal once every 5 days. But how long would it take before you and the other prisoners (badgers) died out completely waiting for the thirty day feasts?

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That is not a relevant example.

Will you get more frequent gratification (or nutrition)? Sure.
But that's not what I was talking about, and not the only thing you [color= orange]claimed[/color].

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Okay, then say you had free time (were playing) for 4 hours. The warden doesn't count time spent outside your cell towards the time between your meals.

Waiting 5 days and 4 hours to eat is still a helluva lot better than waiting 30 days and 4 hours.

You might miss out on a few meals that the more dedicated prisoners eat without you, but since you're waiting less time in between meals, it doesn't mean as much.

(Going by badges again, if you lag behind by 10 badges at 5 days per badge, as was the previous argument, that's 50 days--less than 2 months. That means being behind 10 badges on a 5 day scale is still better off than being behind 2 badges on the current 30 day scale.)

And FYI, if we have to have this at all (and apparently we do), I'm for a 10-15 day scale, leaning towards 14 days (2 weeks). 4-6 months to get 12 badges, as opposed to the currently proposed year.

---

Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093

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Build a bridge and get over it.

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Until the system is gold, I don't need to "Cope". It's an open discussion, and valid points are made reguarly.

I still think my idea is best: Make "Day Jobs" a single badge like the Patron badge redside, with each "earning" as a title adjustment. My big post that explains it is up above somewhere.

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Until the system is gold, I don't need to "Cope". It's an open discussion, and valid points are made reguarly.

I still think my idea is best: Make "Day Jobs" a single badge like the Patron badge redside, with each "earning" as a title adjustment. My big post that explains it is up above somewhere.

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Interesting thought, but what do they do with accolades? Make the temp powers untied to badges (and if so, how does a player keep track of what s/he needs to earn them)? Or did you have another suggestion?

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Sermon
@sermon
One of Six, Cannibal 6

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As far as badges are concerned I am going to make an unpopular comparison. To me, it's like being upset that they aren't giving out the 6 year anniversary badge this year. "Why make us wait!?! It will come out eventually!"

The fact is, it's a system everyone will be in, badger A and badger B will still be getting these badges at the same pace, more or less. Even if it's your most played character I certainly hope that character spends more time offline than on.

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Broken comparison: Veteran Reward Time is gained without regard for on- or off- line time. I would have to specifically avoid a favorite character (my first 50) to collect the badges.

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Build a bridge and get over it.

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Until the system is gold, I don't need to "Cope". It's an open discussion, and valid points are made reguarly.

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Yeah, and you're being awfully rude for it being your birthday. Go eat some cake and mellow out.

I may be bleeping a lot, but at least I'm not directing it at anybody.

EDIT: Oh, and for everybody who says, "You're logged out at least 8 hours a night to sleep," <BLEEEEEEP!> YOU! I have to be at work in just over 7 hours, and this whole concept of Day Jobs has me too angry to sleep.

(The bleepy bit was a joke. Have a nice night, and enjoy your full night's rest. I can't remember the last time I had one. )

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Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093

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Say you're in a prison (because let's face it: as an OCD gamer, that's pretty much what badges are to me at this point).

The warden gives you a choice between two options:

1) You can have 6 decent-sized meals a month, one every 5 days.
2) You can have a feast every 30 days.

(Also, every 2 meals you eat comes with a dessert to help tide you over to the next meal.)

You could manage to survive only eating a good meal once every 5 days. But how long would it take before you and the other prisoners (badgers) died out completely waiting for the thirty day feasts?

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That is not a relevant example.

Will you get more frequent gratification (or nutrition)? Sure.
But that's not what I was talking about, and not the only thing you [color= orange]claimed[/color].

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Okay, then say you had free time (were playing) for 4 hours. The warden doesn't count time spent outside your cell towards the time between your meals.

Waiting 5 days and 4 hours to eat is still a helluva lot better than waiting 30 days and 4 hours.

You might miss out on a few meals that the more dedicated prisoners eat without you, but since you're waiting less time in between meals, it doesn't mean as much.

(Going by badges again, if you lag behind by 10 badges at 5 days per badge, as was the previous argument, that's 50 days--less than 2 months. That means being behind 10 badges on a 5 day scale is still better off than being behind 2 badges on the current 30 day scale.)

And FYI, if we have to have this at all (and apparently we do), I'm for a 10-15 day scale, leaning towards 14 days (2 weeks). 4-6 months to get 12 badges, as opposed to the currently proposed year.

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Ahh, I get it now. A badge, i.e. a graphical symbol of an accomplishment in an online game, is just like food: you'll die if you don't get a badge often enough. Now I understand...


Devs - here's a solution. Remove all the badges from all of these jobs, then there's nothing left for people to whine about.

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CoH/V Fan Videos

I still think my idea is best: Make "Day Jobs" a single badge like the Patron badge redside, with each "earning" as a title adjustment. My big post that explains it is up above somewhere.

I read it. It's wrong. Or more properly, it agrees with me: you shouldn't be able to have all badges on all characters.

If the obsessive-compulsives are willing to accept that, they're playing dog in the manger and need to be smacked.

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Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"

Poll time for the day job badges

My personal opinion, 30 days is too long. I want to be able to play my toons thankyou and have some chance of getting the badges. The last healing badge is bad enough as it is, aswell as the last pillbox badge (both of which I have given up on at this stage because they are ridiculous to get).

I think that 14 days is a good number I would be happy with.

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CHAMPION!

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If the obsessive-compulsives are willing to accept that, they're playing dog in the manger and need to be smacked.

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I don't even understand what that means.

All I know is, you're still being rude and directing it specifically at other forum viewers. Nobody's talking about smacking you... no matter how much we might be thinking it.

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Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093

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The last healing badge is bad enough as it is, aswell as the last pillbox badge (both of which I have given up on at this stage because they are ridiculous to get).

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I long for the days when I've finished with Empath. I'm at 77% right now.

I'm actually looking forward to farming some pillboxes. At least it'll mean getting to play the game again.

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Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093

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Ahh, I get it now. A badge, i.e. a graphical symbol of an accomplishment in an online game, is just like food: you'll die if you don't get a badge often enough. Now I understand...


Devs - here's a solution. Remove all the badges from all of these jobs, then there's nothing left for people to whine about.

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You apparently missed the part where I said I had OCD.

As for the latter bit about completely removing the badges from the Day Jobs? Sweeeeeet. I could just ignore that they ever put this system in, since I have no intention of willingly using it, ever.

Rewards for not playing < being extremely hungover < rewards for playing

(Hmm... I wonder if my character can get drunk and call in sick to his Day Job...? )

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Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093

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Personally, I think this whole idea rocks. As far as double exp goes, about time =)

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And as for your other comment, about making 73 badges that take 5 days each? You'd hear a lot fewer complaints about that, because it's a time vs. reward equation.

73 rewards in a year > 12 rewards in a year

You get visible progress faster, and [color= orange]you can stay competitive with the rest of the badge community even if you want to play your badger here and there. Adding 4 hours to 120 still leaves a smaller lag than adding 4 hours to 720[/color].

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Ehm, no.
You'd fall further behind.

Let's say that it's 10 or 100 rewards instead (for easier examples).
By the time you're 1 badge behind in the 10 badge system, you would be 10 badges behind in the 100 badge system. The gap between you and the really really hard core would increase.

A gap of one badge is easier to make up for with other badges than a gap of 10 badges is.

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Say you're in a prison (because let's face it: as an OCD gamer, that's pretty much what badges are to me at this point).

The warden gives you a choice between two options:

1) You can have 6 decent-sized meals a month, one every 5 days.
2) You can have a feast every 30 days.

(Also, every 2 meals you eat comes with a dessert to help tide you over to the next meal.)

You could manage to survive only eating a good meal once every 5 days. But how long would it take before you and the other prisoners (badgers) died out completely waiting for the thirty day feasts?

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That is not a relevant example.

Will you get more frequent gratification (or nutrition)? Sure.
But that's not what I was talking about, and not the only thing you [color= orange]claimed[/color].

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Okay, then say you had free time (were playing) for 4 hours. The warden doesn't count time spent outside your cell towards the time between your meals.

Waiting 5 days and 4 hours to eat is still a helluva lot better than waiting 30 days and 4 hours.

You might miss out on a few meals that the more dedicated prisoners eat without you, but since you're waiting less time in between meals, it doesn't mean as much.

(Going by badges again, if you lag behind by 10 badges at 5 days per badge, as was the previous argument, that's 50 days--less than 2 months. That means being behind 10 badges on a 5 day scale is still better off than being behind 2 badges on the current 30 day scale.)

And FYI, if we have to have this at all (and apparently we do), I'm for a 10-15 day scale, leaning towards 14 days (2 weeks). 4-6 months to get 12 badges, as opposed to the currently proposed year.

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Still not relevant.

I'm not arguing that the time between badges (meals) would be shorter with more badges awarded in the same time. Of course it would be.

What I am saying is wrong is your claim that
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you can stay competitive with the rest of the badge community even if you want to play your badger here and there. Adding 4 hours to 120 still leaves a smaller lag than adding 4 hours to 720

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(highlighted in orange above)

For a given amount of "away-time", increasing the number of badges awarded in a given amount of time would make you fall behind by a greater absolute amount of badges.

At best you could say that even if you increase the number of badges / time, you'd still be behind (approximately) the same relative amount of Day Job Badges (i.e. you're behind by 10% both if you have 9/10 or 90/100 badges), but Day Job Badges are not the only badges there are. There are over 500 *other* badges, and the number of Day Job badges is small in comparison to this number. It is thus not meaningful to compare your overall standing compared to other badge hunters by the fraction of Day Job badges you have. You have to compare the total amount of badges (absolute or relative) to their total amount of badges, and for both absolute and relative you would fall further behind the more badges/time are awarded by Day Jobs (given a larger amount of non-eligible time for you than for them).


Again, I'm not contesting that increasing the number of badges/time would increase your visible progress.
I am saying that you are wrong in claiming that increasing the number of badges/time would help someone with more non-eligible time stay competitive with the rest of the badge community (assuming that the rest has less non-eligible time).

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This is the first time that a badge has been awarded to a player for NOT actively accomplishing something.


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Not true. There are badges you can get just standing AFK in certain zones. This used to be especially annoying in Siren's Call, due to the way the 'mini game' there is set up.

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Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue