Discussion - Dev Diary: Designing Day Jobs Feature
By
Aisynia,
Posted on: 2008-10-09 16:16 in Developers' Corner
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As far as badges are concerned I am going to make an unpopular comparison. To me, it's like being upset that they aren't giving out the 6 year anniversary badge this year. "Why make us wait!?! It will come out eventually!"
The fact is, it's a system everyone will be in, badger A and badger B will still be getting these badges at the same pace, more or less. Even if it's your most played character I certainly hope that character spends more time offline than on.
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Broken comparison: Veteran Reward Time is gained without regard for on- or off- line time. I would have to specifically avoid a favorite character (my first 50) to collect the badges.
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Not true. You would only have to specifically avoid a favorite character to collect the badges in the shortest amount of time possible. Otherwise, unless you are literally online with only that one character 24 hours a day 365 days a year, you will eventually get all the badges.
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
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This is the first time that a badge has been awarded to a player for NOT actively accomplishing something.
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Not true. There are badges you can get just standing AFK in certain zones. This used to be especially annoying in Siren's Call, due to the way the 'mini game' there is set up.
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Arguably semantics: You're logged in and COULD be doing something. That people choose to AFK their way to it is an option, but not the only one. The same comparison can be made for most of the heal badges and Damage Earned badges.
Would it be better to say "This is the first time that a badge rewarding system is DESIGNED around a player NOT actively accomplishing something"?
@TURGENEV - Freedom Server / IRON / B.A.N.E / HORDE
Turg Fiction: Ghost in the Machine Acts III & IV coming 2012!
Turg Fiction: IX is now LIVE on Architect Entertainment!
Dude, I have 578 badges. A couple of the ones I'm missing are still within reasonably grasp: MSTF, some consignment sales, the 5th invention, and the last Ouroboros badges.
I could probably grab those all in a reasonably short amount of time if I really pressed them... say maybe 2 weeks?
After that, it's the last pillbox badge, 3 damage badges, and 2 inf badges. Each of those is a SUBSTANTIAL time requirement--we're talking months of effort, not days or weeks.
And there are others who have completed most of those already and are down to maybe one or two left.
So can you see how maybe adding in 12+ more badges that take a minimum of 1 month each to "earn" by NOT playing the badge character might be considered a slap in the face? 
I'm not asking you to say that it's right. I don't care if you collect badges or not. In fact, I've been told (today) that I'm "sick" for my obsessive-compulsive gaming habits, specifically those involving badges.
All I'm asking is, try to see things from our point of view.
(Not mine specifically, because I want Day Jobs taken out back and shot in the head execution style, then doused in gasoline and burned, then have its ashes sent back to the marketting department as a warning to stop trying this baited hook B.S. to keep people paying by giving them crap for not playing. 
)
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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This is the first time that a badge has been awarded to a player for NOT actively accomplishing something.
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Not true. There are badges you can get just standing AFK in certain zones. This used to be especially annoying in Siren's Call, due to the way the 'mini game' there is set up.
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Those badges are not designed to be achieved by AFK. Those were meant to be earned by participating in the zones.
I've said for years now (literally) that AFK exemptions such as Task Forces should be removed. That would force people have to do something (even if it is logging on) to earn those time badges.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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This is the first time that a badge has been awarded to a player for NOT actively accomplishing something.
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Not true. There are badges you can get just standing AFK in certain zones. This used to be especially annoying in Siren's Call, due to the way the 'mini game' there is set up.
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Those badges are not designed to be achieved by AFK. Those were meant to be earned by participating in the zones.
I've said for years now (literally) that AFK exemptions such as Task Forces should be removed. That would force people have to do something (even if it is logging on) to earn those time badges.
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Every time I've gone AFK in a PVP zone, I get TPed and ganked by 2 Stalkers and a Mastermind. 
I got my PVP zone time badges by getting Shivans in Bloody Bay, nukes in Warburg, and farming Contaminateds (stupid me should've been doing pillboxes 
) in RV. I think I ended up AFK farming about 45 minutes in Siren's Call, since there's nothing really worthwhile to be gained by going there. (I tried to get the Blue Ink Men Tsoo, but kept getting ganked by teams while I was solo.)
The point is, you can earn those badges through regular play if you play enough.
Day Jobs actually give you LESS credit if you play a lot, making them highly flawed. Other than the rush of endorphins I get every time I see "Badge Earned!" fly across my screen, Day Jobs have nothing to offer someone like me who actually wants to be in the game as much as possible.
Now, I'M GOING TO BED! I MEAN IT THIS TIME! ... ... ...
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Dude, I have 578 badges. A couple of the ones I'm missing are still within reasonably grasp: MSTF, some consignment sales, the 5th invention, and the last Ouroboros badges.
I could probably grab those all in a reasonably short amount of time if I really pressed them... say maybe 2 weeks?
After that, it's the last pillbox badge, 3 damage badges, and 2 inf badges. Each of those is a SUBSTANTIAL time requirement--we're talking months of effort, not days or weeks.
And there are others who have completed most of those already and are down to maybe one or two left.
So can you see how maybe adding in 12+ more badges that take a minimum of 1 month each to "earn" by NOT playing the badge character might be considered a slap in the face?
I'm not asking you to say that it's right. I don't care if you collect badges or not. In fact, I've been told (today) that I'm "sick" for my obsessive-compulsive gaming habits, specifically those involving badges.
All I'm asking is, try to see things from our point of view.
(Not mine specifically, because I want Day Jobs taken out back and shot in the head execution style, then doused in gasoline and burned, then have its ashes sent back to the marketting department as a warning to stop trying this baited hook B.S. to keep people paying by giving them crap for not playing. )
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Again, completely irrelevant to what I was saying.
I did not argue that the time requirement was appropriate (or not).
I simply said that your claim that increasing the number of badges but keeping the amount of time required to get all of them would make it easier to stay competitive is wrong.
If you disagree with that, then fine, discuss that, not the price of tea in China.
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This is the first time that a badge has been awarded to a player for NOT actively accomplishing something.
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Not true. There are badges you can get just standing AFK in certain zones. This used to be especially annoying in Siren's Call, due to the way the 'mini game' there is set up.
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Arguably semantics: You're logged in and COULD be doing something. That people choose to AFK their way to it is an option, but not the only one. The same comparison can be made for most of the heal badges and Damage Earned badges.
Would it be better to say "This is the first time that a badge rewarding system is DESIGNED around a player NOT actively accomplishing something"?
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I'm sure it was intended that you get those badges while doing other things (ie: PvPing) but in practice a not insignificant number of people were rewarded for doing absolutely nothing (or worse, passively impeding other players' enjoyment of the zone). There were epic flame-filled threads on the subject (and on badges in PvP zones in general) when those zones were first put in the game. Interestingly enough, the badgers (and PvPers) managed to survive even though the Devs stuck to their guns and didn't change any of the badges that required stepping into a PvP zone.
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
You apparently missed the part where I said I had OCD.
No, I missed the part where the game has to be designed around that.
With all due respect, people with that kind of disorder need to not play MMOs at all.
I don't even understand what that means.
"Dog in the manger" refers to taking something away from someone else just so they can't have it, even when doing so is of no benefit to yourself. My favorite example pertaining to CoX is the claim that Empath can't be fixed because it would upset people who already have it. Anyone who that is true of needs to have a high-velocity meeting with the business end of a baseball bat.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
I just don't get it.
This game has encouraged alts from day one. You have x number of power combinations per AT, y number of ATs, Z number of slots per server and however many servers.
Now finally they are giving a bonus to whatever alts you are not playing, so when you do get around to playing them again you get something. More xp, a badge, a temp power, some kind of xp/inf/item bonus.
Sign me and my 50+ alts the hell up right now.
If there's someone out there only playing one character, they're playing the wrong game. Go somewhere else where all you do is grind out new stuff for the same guy over and over until they raise the level cap, make all your gear worthless, and then you can do it all again... This is not that game, and thank god it's not. Those games aren't fun, this one is.
Play what you want to play, when you want to play it. Take an extra minute when you log out to park somewhere. Or don't, you'll still get the "patrol" bonus even if you're not working on a job. This is all extra. It's a nifty added in bonus. Even more so than "optional" inventions, you really don't have to participate in day jobs at all if you don't want to.
Anniversary badges, event badges, veteran badges... I just can't see the badge complaints. There's always been something that not everyone can have.
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anyone else know what day job they want?
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Right now, based on the list that they published, all of my alts on all of the servers get moved to the jail, for the experence bonus award.
After that I would go for caregiver and professer, to get the ally rez accolade power.
Next would be midnighter for the ally heal and free salvage.
I will then most likely go for banker next, to get the aoe hold accolade power.
Then Intern, to get the insp drop and the sleep accolade power.
The rest I don't really care much about so will just fill them out in order of the check off list.
Global is @honcho
On Champion
Living Coal LV 50 Fire/Fire Tank
Nature Boy LV 41 Earth/Kin Cont
Great Wacko LV 34 Robot/FF MM
plus many alts
The time it takes to get a badge or the bonuses are just fine IMO. I have 36 toons on my main server. I sure as heck don't play ALL of them everyday. This is a way to get my non-50s to 50 quicker.
I'm not a heavy badger and the temps don't interest me a lot. So I'm thinking log my non-50's off where xp bonuses await. As for my 50's log off where they can earn more cash. Simple and yet effective.
Question, does the influence bonus affect prestige as well?
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Again, completely irrelevant to what I was saying.
I did not argue that the time requirement was appropriate (or not).
I simply said that your claim that increasing the number of badges but keeping the amount of time required to get all of them would make it easier to stay competitive is wrong.
If you disagree with that, then fine, discuss that, not the price of tea in China.
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Oh, see, I was misunderstanding you.
I disagree, in that allowing people to make small but visible steps towards progress in the badge community is better than requiring larger, slower steps. Sure, the end result is that you spent a year off the game, but you have more to show for it, and if nothing else, it feels less detrimental to fall behind because you make progress more quickly.
If you're behind 10 badges for 50 days of off-line credit, then in 5 days you're only behind 9, in 10 days you're only behind 8, and so on.
Since you make more visible progress, it's easier on the psyche. I can't say that this works for 100% of those with a collector mindset, but it should ease the strains on most of them.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Double XP does a level 50 how much good?
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Quite a bit. 50s still accumulate debt, and have to work that debt off before they can gain influence while exemplared down (such as during flashback missions).
Honestly, I think that's obvious enough that it must have been a rhetorical queston.
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The time it takes to get a badge or the bonuses are just fine IMO.
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I'm not a heavy badger and the temps don't interest me a lot.
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No offense, but why state an opinion at all if you're just going to follow up by saying you don't care about the subject?
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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I'm curious...what MMOs put your xp on a cooldown to encourage alts? I've seen that bandied about in this thread, and can't think of any that I've tried that do it. (Which doesn't mean there isn't one; I'd honestly like to know which do.)
As for Day Jobs...I'll also agree with Venture about limiting the number of jobs a character can have.
Each character should only be able to have one job, perhaps two if they're related. You're a (pulling generic jobs out of my butt) Banker and Politician? Want to be a Firefighter? Well, okay...but you gotta stop being a Banker or Politician. Once the dropped job's temp powers and buffs run out, that's it. This could work well with Turg's idea for one badge, many skins, or even locking each character into their jobs forever, if badges are kept individual.
My way, I'd lock professions to a character forever, or place a time limit on how long you have to wait before changing it (not adding another...replacing it). That would make this truly a role-playing feature, and not another outlet for "pokiemanz" catching.
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I sure hope it does. No offense, but it's kind of absurd. That means for the badges you have LISTED, I have to log my main, my badge hunter, my favorite character out... for AT LEAST A YEAR.
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No, it means that to get all the badges, at the earlies possible second, you would have to not play your favorite character for a year, except to log on ever 720 hours and dash to the new spot where you will log off.
Here is an experement, go find out how many hours you have played your toon. Subtract that number from 36,000 hours (24 hours by 365 days by 4 years rounded up). That is how many hours of day job badge credit your toon would have gotten if it was made at the start of game, and day jobs had been in from day one. How many years (8760 hours) has your character already been logged out.
I have a bunch of alts, about 6 of which I play semi-regularly. I'll be getting the badges on all of them, so every 30 days (or whatever the number turns out to be) I'll move all my not played alts to the next job spot I want the badge for. The ones that I play will most likely be moved a few days to a week later at the most. I don't see where this is a big deal. You keep paying your subscription, and moving the toons to the new spot, and you will eventually get the badges, just like you will eventually get the next Vets badge.
Global is @honcho
On Champion
Living Coal LV 50 Fire/Fire Tank
Nature Boy LV 41 Earth/Kin Cont
Great Wacko LV 34 Robot/FF MM
plus many alts
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Even if it's your most played character I certainly hope that character spends more time offline than on.
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I'm currently on 23.75 hours a day (on non-maintenance days) in a heal farm. Hurray for existing broken badges, let's just add some more shall we?
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You don't have to get all the badges. Especially the ones you know are broken. If you know it's a broken design, then you should be able to give yourself an exemption or dispensation from obtaining it. If you truly have OCD as you claim, then this is a sign that you're currently out of control. The paradox of OCD is that your attempt at getting this broken badge gives you the illusion of being in control when just the opposite is the reality -- it's controlling you.
You should be bringing this up to whatever professional is helping you with your OCD. Walking away from that broken badge would be a healthy sign.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
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Again, completely irrelevant to what I was saying.
I did not argue that the time requirement was appropriate (or not).
I simply said that your claim that increasing the number of badges but keeping the amount of time required to get all of them would make it easier to stay competitive is wrong.
If you disagree with that, then fine, discuss that, not the price of tea in China.
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Oh, see, I was misunderstanding you.
I disagree, in that allowing people to make small but visible steps towards progress in the badge community is better than requiring larger, slower steps. Sure, the end result is that you spent a year off the game, but you have more to show for it, and if nothing else, it feels less detrimental to fall behind because you make progress more quickly.
If you're behind 10 badges for 50 days of off-line credit, then in 5 days you're only behind 9, in 10 days you're only behind 8, and so on.
Since you make more visible progress, it's easier on the psyche. I can't say that this works for 100% of those with a collector mindset, but it should ease the strains on most of them.
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It may feel better, but it doesn't make you more competitive.
First, if you've fallen behind due to "extra online time", you will only start catching up if the competition starts spending more time online than you, or if they have already gotten all the badges.
When you start catching up, a larger number of badges/time will increase the rate at which you catch up, but you will still be behind by a larger amount of badges (exception: the very last days where both ways will end up being 1 badge behind).
Example:
1 badge per day vs. 1 badge/10 days
After having spent X time online, you've fallen behind by 20 or 2 badges respectively.
The competition has gained all the badges, so you are catching up.
With the 1/day system you will gain progress faster, but after 10 days you will still be 10 badges behind. With the 1/10day system you would be 1 badge behind at that point.
Basically, if you are disadvantaged by spending "too much" time online, then increasing the badges awarded/time makes you lag the competition by more.
It may feel better, but it doesn't make you more competitive.
Blood Ribbon - 51 days offline
Metal Dragon - 16 days offline
Nightmare Prince - 10 days offline
Valentine Hunter - 8 days offline
Primaeval - 4 days offline
Stark Terror - 17 days offline
Heartbreak Shin - 295 days offline
Embercore - 88 days offline
Agent Sinew - 75 days offline
Mental Arrest - 142 days offline
Rogue Weaver - 83 days offline
It's not exactly hard, even if you play every day, to rack up lots of time on your alts. The way I see it, "patrol time" just meant it's a helluvalot easier to level alts.
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Double XP does a level 50 how much good?
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Quite a bit. 50s still accumulate debt, and have to work that debt off before they can gain influence while exemplared down (such as during flashback missions).
Honestly, I think that's obvious enough that it must have been a rhetorical queston.
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You're quoting the wrong person; I did not say that.
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Blood Ribbon - 51 days offline
Metal Dragon - 16 days offline
Nightmare Prince - 10 days offline
Valentine Hunter - 8 days offline
Primaeval - 4 days offline
Stark Terror - 17 days offline
Heartbreak Shin - 295 days offline
Embercore - 88 days offline
Agent Sinew - 75 days offline
Mental Arrest - 142 days offline
Rogue Weaver - 83 days offline
It's not exactly hard, even if you play every day, to rack up lots of time on your alts. The way I see it, "patrol time" just meant it's a helluvalot easier to level alts.
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*steals several cool names*
Like I need more alts...
(qr) As someone intending to go from being a regular player to being a more casual player, all I can say is "yay!" This is great for me and my alts, certainly. While the Patrol/RestXP bonus is a bit generous (I'm a miser here), this certainly does help prevent playing from feeling like a job. Will certainly help casual players in a Level Pact advance, too.
No - I love it. Hardcore/Regular players are still better off, I think, but casual/infrequent players get a nice boost.
I used to be a badge hunter. Then the number of badges exploded with all the invention and time travel mission badges. At that point I realized I was not willing to put in the effort to get those, which meant I was no longer in contention to get most/all of the badges, my percentage of completion plumented and the whole goal structure just went away for me. I stopped hunting for any badges at that point. At one point I was in the 90%+ range on my main. Now, not so much. Clearly, I am not worthy.
It became one less reason for me to play the game and I've been quite content to let my account lapse from time to time because there aren't enough reasons for me to pay for it in between the times when new mission content shows up. My current paid period ends tomorrow in fact. I'll be back for a 1 month test period when issue 14 is signed, sealed, and delivered in the form currently propossed - that is to say with the mission arcitect orignally hinted at as in issue 13 + the functionality most players asked for (the IMO 'duh' request of using a tool they were familiar with to have some visual control of the system, not just a damn text window). Perhaps all my characters will all have a new badge on them when I get back. Imagine my thrill.
Making it so you can only have 1-2 occupatons at a time, swapping to new ones if you log out for another 30 day at annother location would be a lot less irksome to me as a collector. But a system that flatly says "you may buy one badge (per character) for every $15 you give us - and we've got a years worth stocked up" is just a little too blatant a sales pitch for me. I suspect it'll just the therapy quite a few other badge hunters need to clear up their commitment issues. "You can be back to having nearly a full set... in a year or so."
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Double XP does a level 50 how much good?
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Quite a bit. 50s still accumulate debt, and have to work that debt off before they can gain influence while exemplared down (such as during flashback missions).
Honestly, I think that's obvious enough that it must have been a rhetorical queston.
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You're quoting the wrong person; I did not say that.
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Nor am I talking to you, which is why all of your text was clipped out. Sorry your name appears at the top.
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I was hoping to be able to get extra Vanguard Merits for hanging out there.
Still, I'm not complaining.
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Hopefully that's one of the unlisted ones. I'd love to have Vanguard job and get some kind of extra merits. Maybe put you in "ship raid" mode for a few hours. Every kill = 1 merit. Be great for just running the RWZ arcs and not forcing anyone to do a raid event which can be quite laggy for some, and on other servers maybe rarely done. The vanguard costumes and weapons are frickin awesome, and any easier merit access would be good.