Discussion: Issue 13: Architect
By
9thcircle,
Posted on: 2008-08-26 09:40 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
Ok for the day job system will we get an extra costume slot for our job, or will we just transform into a random NPC?
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
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*idley wonders what the benefits would be for logging out at Monkey Fight Club*
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There would probably be a couple of rules against talking about it. 
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I am thinking lots of shaving and therapy afterwards...
"...well I have wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor and I am happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P Dowd (from the movie Harvey)
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Man where should i start??? What are the devs doing? Stalkers get yet another powerset in i13??? OMG and villians get Pain Domiantion??? Aren't they already dominating with widows in pvp??? When are the Heroes gonna get something thats really good? First thing that I think needs to happen in i13 is improving the PB and Ws,you know to make things fair and balanced remember that??? How about pistols for blasters? How about another good damage set for scrappers,Fire melee is great,and 1 more nice set wouldn't hurt.Tanks could use a new good set as well,since brutes have fury,and more powersets than tanks.Man you guys keep giving the villians stuff every issue and keep the heroes behind on the goods.I hope you guys got some more nice stuff to announce,cause right now it looks like a disappointing issue.
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... Yer kidding, Right? All these years people have been moaning about Vside getting hosed, and now you're complaining when it actually gets the goods?
[Stares. In amazement and disbelief.]
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I have to admit that Shields for stalkers does seem a bit misplaced. What do you need with a shield if your main defense is stealth?
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What do you do with a shield? Throw it at your enemy and knock him down! 
Sounds awesome so far can'nt wait to see it 
-Tigs
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Man where should i start??? What are the devs doing? Stalkers get yet another powerset in i13??? OMG and villians get Pain Domiantion??? Aren't they already dominating with widows in pvp??? When are the Heroes gonna get something thats really good? First thing that I think needs to happen in i13 is improving the PB and Ws,you know to make things fair and balanced remember that??? How about pistols for blasters? How about another good damage set for scrappers,Fire melee is great,and 1 more nice set wouldn't hurt.Tanks could use a new good set as well,since brutes have fury,and more powersets than tanks.Man you guys keep giving the villians stuff every issue and keep the heroes behind on the goods.I hope you guys got some more nice stuff to announce,cause right now it looks like a disappointing issue.
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... Yer kidding, Right? All these years people have been moaning about Vside getting hosed, and now you're complaining when it actually gets the goods?
[Stares. In amazement and disbelief.]
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I have to admit that Shields for stalkers does seem a bit misplaced. What do you need with a shield if your main defense is stealth?
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What do you do with a shield? Throw it at your enemy and knock him down!
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No no no! Don't you get it!
It's a CLOAKING SHIELD
Think people!
*holds shield on head and patrol-walks away*
I love all of these features, I have no complaints about any of them, they all look great, they're all things that I'm looking forward to being part of City of Heroes, and I'm delighted that we're at least tentatively scheduled to get them all no later than January. Ish.
That being said, is there any good reason why we can't have half of them, the easier half to implement, as issue 13 in September or October and the other half in December as issue 14?
For one thing, there's a perceptions game in the MMO business. When you more or less promise 3 updates a year and miss that, people who don't know the game well will just see that headline and think that the company isn't investing resources in it. Those of us who know you know that it's the opposite, that you fell prey to Fred Brooks' first law, but to everybody else, it will look bad. For another, with one highly hyped new MMO coming out in less than a month, and a major expansion to one of the big-three MMOs coming out in about a month, this game could really, really use an excuse to be on the MMO industry web pages in late September or early October. And to give one last reason, the more stuff you shove into one issue, the harder that issue is going to be to test, and the more likely you are to accidentally introduce major bugs, just from the sheer complexity of changing too many things at a time.
So seriously, you can't, say, package City Vault, Shields, Pain Domination, some of pohsyb's UI upgrades, and the 2nd wave of Cimerora missions and get it out to beta in September, and call it Issue 13: To the Pain or some such thing?
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It all sounds great -- I'm thinking both Shield/SS and MA/Shields as options for alts. Possibly even a Pain Domination villain.
But... conspicuously absent from this announcement is any mention of further powerset proliferation. Does that mean there simply won't be any this time? I hope that's not the case, since the talk leading up to the Issue 12 release definitely made it sound like proliferation would be an every-issue type of thing.
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Originally, PP was not scheduled for 13. Then, it was added as a Stretch Goal ("If you have extra time...") At this point, it isn't terribly likely, but who knows? Maybe there won't be any bugs in Beta!
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From more than two decades of experience with software development, my first thought when I read that comment was "...and winged monkeys are going to fly out of my posterior..." (or something similar). Good luck with that retreat from reality, though...
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
they could put a limit on how often someone could play a player generated mission (PGM) for rewards each day or three days..after that you could still play but no rewards but say only for getting rid of debt...or a scale of sorts..the first mission..100percent..the second one...80..and so on until nothing...((I could see this as a great tool for people who do not want to make a run to the highest level..or a hard core RPer who has dedicated their lives to taking down a certain threat))
"...well I have wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor and I am happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P Dowd (from the movie Harvey)
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I am seriously displeased...
Thank you for putting in reason number 1 why I quit World of Warcraft two years ago and sold my account.
I suppose the only redeeming quality is that PvP in City of Heroes is stupid pointless, and it's not like the invention sets go so far out of the way to make things lopsided.
But honestly, things like this are a slap in the face to casual gamers who don't have time to go doing TF's and whatnot every night.
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Um, "the casual gamers who don't have time to go doing TF's and whatnot every night" probably are not doing back to back TF/SFs, farming in general, or playing the market. Any change would notaffect them.
Now, what this does do is make TF/SFs fun again rather than a chore that was a side affect of Inventions. I would prefer to do a SF/TF for fun and XP/Badge rather than running Katies/Caps ad nauseum.
I do hope there is a way to earn Merits solo outright, and not jump through hoops by doing a Posi/Cap solo.
Poison Pill
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The Merit System sounds potentionally Game Breaking. It'll destroy the price structure of the BM and WW. If the dev's are smart they'll keep the Uniques and Ultra Rares out of the reward choices otherwise it'll take a lot of fun out of the game. Part of the reason for me doing Tf's is that i dont know if i'm gonna get something uber rare or not.
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exactly this could make things like building a perma dom a joke to do.
I'm concerned with how they will be handling this as well, as this could have substantial repercussions for the player market. Do LoTGs automatically cost more merits than a sting of the manticore? If so, why? It has the same chance to drop, but its bonuses are considered better by players. Will the devs formulate costs based on their bonuses, or will they all cost a flat (high) rate?
hm...
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Exactly this has some bad vibes coming off of it. This could make difficult build's like a perma dom a joke to do. I hope the dev's think about this one carefully. i'd hate for issue 13 to be the expansion that killed city of heroes.
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I'll bet anyone right this second that getting the LoTG 7.5% def/rech is going to take a LOT of merits. It's probably going to take 50+ Katies worth and probably several of the harder TFs. I suspect it will still be quicker to just farm for the money.
I expect market prices to go somewhat lower, but not crash.
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I honestly think all recipe rewards should cost the same amount of merits, a flat fee. After all, the chances of getting any specific recipe as a random drop are also 100% equal. By making one recipe cost more than another, the devs are making a concerted effort to skew the market, something I believe they have said in the past they wish to avoid.
I think all recipes should cost the same, flat price in merits, though how high that is will be a decision for the devs.
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Who said they won't all cost a ridiculous amount of merits? Let's say it takes [arbitrary number] or merits to get any specific Pool C recipe. That number of merits can be earned by doing the:
KHTF - 50 times
ITF - 30 Times
Positron - 15 Times
Shard TF - 5 times
Then that would mean that for most Pool C recipes, you'll be better off either just trying to win them or buying them off the market. Because less recipes will be generated after this change (because presumably people will be taking merits as a reward), the costs for the cheaper recipes might rise a bit, the crap ones will still be super cheap, and the super expensive ones will stay super expensive because in the time you can earn one with merits you can earn the money to buy one.
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I guess we'll see, but those requirements are not very casual friendly and that seems to be what they are attempting to address because casuals don't like to play the market games and can't farm TF's.
If it costs 25hrs of total TF time to purchase a recipe that isn't very casual friendly (30 mins/ katie x 50) + you have to factor in the manditory 3hr wait which would be anywhere from an additional 15hrs (5 shard tfs) to 150hrs (katies).
I'm interested to see how they will balance this out so hardcores aren't able to abuse the system, but still make IO's easier for casuals (which seems to be what they are attempting).
I personally see more value in this system red side where even with funds some recipes just aren't available, but then again way less SF's are run to earn the merits...
I actually hope it drives prices way down, I'm not a fan of purple gear in this game.
No Psi Melee. 
I kept hoping. But other than that...WOW! Can't wait >.> As usual of course.
Now get it to beta, so someone can tell me if fox tails have finally made it as a costume slot. I'll even pay money for it!
What? I'm gonna get the cyborg pack...I'll get the fox tail pack too!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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yes i have been wondering if vault got shafted.............get it..........nm carry on
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Oi Vey...if the reference is what I think they are, the Vault NYC closed a long time ago.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I skimmed through 6+ pages of 'woo boy' to get to some realistic feedback. Here's my concerns:
1. Merits for tf's to get rewards-any CHANCE that might be retroactive? One of my 50's is decked out with EVERYTHING, and that would be pretty cool. I'd hate to have to repeat things. Sorta. 
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You completed the TFs and didn't get any drops at the end? If you got a recipe or SO drop, then you already got your reward; getting merits for them retroactively is double-dipping.
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
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think we will get credit for the raids, TF etc we already completed?
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No. Absolutely not.
Wanna know why?
BECAUSE YOU ALREADY GOT A REWARD, that's why!
Yeesh. THINK, people. Just for a moment. Please.
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I had posed the same question earlier-but I think I was mis-thinking the 'merit rewards' idea. I was thinking of them in terms of a badge, as we often get those for completing certain tf's. Now I'm getting that they are more like Rikti Merits...where you trade in a bunch for a goodie. THEN, I can understand why we wouldn't get them retroactively, as you are correct...we've already received an award.
Basically too many 50's to count, but I'm generally a brute/scrapper/tank kind of guy.
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Man where should i start??? What are the devs doing? Stalkers get yet another powerset in i13??? OMG and villians get Pain Domiantion??? Aren't they already dominating with widows in pvp??? When are the Heroes gonna get something thats really good? First thing that I think needs to happen in i13 is improving the PB and Ws,you know to make things fair and balanced remember that??? How about pistols for blasters? How about another good damage set for scrappers,Fire melee is great,and 1 more nice set wouldn't hurt.Tanks could use a new good set as well,since brutes have fury,and more powersets than tanks.Man you guys keep giving the villians stuff every issue and keep the heroes behind on the goods.I hope you guys got some more nice stuff to announce,cause right now it looks like a disappointing issue.
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... Yer kidding, Right? All these years people have been moaning about Vside getting hosed, and now you're complaining when it actually gets the goods?
[Stares. In amazement and disbelief.]
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I have to admit that Shields for stalkers does seem a bit misplaced. What do you need with a shield if your main defense is stealth?
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You hide BEHIND your shield... d'uh!
well something i suggested is that instead of 1 random recipe at the end of a tf you get the choice of 1 of 4 recipes,i really dont like the idea of extra rewards for creators of popular misson, too easy to abuse, so now instead of getting spam selling us influnce, we will get some saying for the small sum of $19.95, we will give you x number of positive reviews for your misson
Fluffy Bunny 1 Person SG
Rabid Bunny 1 Person VG
Both on Pinnacle
Hobbit's Hole 1 Person SG
Spider's Web 1 Person VG
Both on Freedom
What I like best about this game is task forces. Big, epic ones like Eden, the STF, ITF, Hess. I hate generic radio/newspaper missions. I hope the mission generator at least gets some new maps and isn't a 'create your own generic radio/newspaper mission' machine where the only real user created content is the NPC dialog. It doesn't matter how good a few of them are, most of them will be dull as generic radio/newspaper missions and I'll get bored before open beta.
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I have to agree... I guess most Devs don't PVP, because there no way in Hell that they would give Veat's empathy powersets... They already have a high defense and with Fortitude, that will be very interesting in pvp zones (Siern Call, Warburg and Recluse Victory)...
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just to point out. i do not think that the Pain Domination set would be a power for power copy. The devs prolly know what to expect.
" I don't let me kids play on the Freedom Server" -Oya
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Now, under the new system, you can know exactly what you need to do to get what you want. In my mind this is a much more friendly system for any player - hardcore or casual. We'll have all the details of the token system in a future feature update on Issue 13.
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This reminded me of something I wanted to throw out for consideration as a QoL enhancement for story arcs. Many story arcs, when you complete them, give you a pick-list to select an enhancement to receive. I think that getting the option for a random recipe drop (either from pool B or a rare from pool A), as the TFs do now, might be more desirable for characters, particularly after they reach levels where they start getting IO'd out. Since it was done for TFs/SFs, I know it would be possible, but I don't know what the programming effort that it would entail versus the interest from the players in the idea.
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
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Also, since most of my alts are supposed to be working in Pocket D will there be rewards for logging out there?
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If there is it should probably be something that allows you to make friends with NPCs quicker so you get the Cell # faster.
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Love that idea! /signed
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
MAN. I can't wait to make a Pain domination Defender! Oh wait... Well the name for Villain empathy is weird but it adds some nice name variety amongst Corrupter and Mastermind secondaries. I have a prediction that Pain Domination will be like Thermal Rad, except more like Empathy.
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No Psi Melee. I kept hoping. But other than that...WOW! Can't wait >.> As usual of course.
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lol that is the first thing i said. I love shields... kinda reminds me of a great game i once played. Psi melee is gunna be awsome.
" I don't let me kids play on the Freedom Server" -Oya
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Who said they won't all cost a ridiculous amount of merits? Let's say it takes [arbitrary number] or merits to get any specific Pool C recipe. That number of merits can be earned by doing the:
KHTF - 50 times
ITF - 30 Times
Positron - 15 Times
Shard TF - 5 times
Then that would mean that for most Pool C recipes, you'll be better off either just trying to win them or buying them off the market. Because less recipes will be generated after this change (because presumably people will be taking merits as a reward), the costs for the cheaper recipes might rise a bit, the crap ones will still be super cheap, and the super expensive ones will stay super expensive because in the time you can earn one with merits you can earn the money to buy one.
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I guess we'll see, but those requirements are not very casual friendly and that seems to be what they are attempting to address because casuals don't like to play the market games and can't farm TF's.
If it costs 25hrs of total TF time to purchase a recipe that isn't very casual friendly (30 mins/ katie x 50) + you have to factor in the manditory 3hr wait which would be anywhere from an additional 15hrs (5 shard tfs) to 150hrs (katies).
I'm interested to see how they will balance this out so hardcores aren't able to abuse the system, but still make IO's easier for casuals (which seems to be what they are attempting).
I personally see more value in this system red side where even with funds some recipes just aren't available, but then again way less SF's are run to earn the merits...
I actually hope it drives prices way down, I'm not a fan of purple gear in this game.
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I don't necessarily see that they are trying to target casual gamers specifically. It seems to me this system is more a way to deal with the constant complaints about the fairness of Pool C.
See the devs probably don't want to get into the game where they say, "Numina's are more important than Trap of the Hunter." Sure the vast majority of people would probably agree with that, but the devs don't want to be seen as manipulating the market.
So they can't just remove the "crap" recipes in Pool C.
In addition, they can't just up the drop rate. The TF pool requires completing a TF. In addition, I have to believe that they don't want to make rare loot like the costume pieces (i.e. near worthless).
But what they probably DO want to do is ameliorate some of the unfairness that Lady Luck sometimes imposes. Taking your chances is still there for the gamblers. But for someone who's been trying for a long time to IO out a character, they'll have a way to get what they want. This is probably more important now that they'll be adding even more IO recipes to the game, diluting Pool C even more.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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So uh.....what happen to the coming storm?
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Build up for Issue 14 from what I recall.
Re: Announcement. Yeah, bases, City Vault - you'd think they'd be worth a BLURB in the first announcement. Does that mean they're questionably ready for I13, and may need a pushback to I14?
Overall though, I'm looking forward to it. I REALLY just wanna know if I should overhaul my VG base now, or wait for I13 goodies.
@TURGENEV - Freedom Server / IRON / B.A.N.E / HORDE
Turg Fiction: Ghost in the Machine Acts III & IV coming 2012!
Turg Fiction: IX is now LIVE on Architect Entertainment!
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First veats now empathy for vills......sigh....I sure hope u got something big for heroes coming.
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But...but... I thought the Dev Team hated Villains?
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I think now with VEATs, Pain Domination (numbers pending), and PPP respecs (though not nearly on par with e.g. Force Mastery)... I think Villains are finally getting some respectable love. Not just the hold-your-hair-back-while-you're-throwing-up-kinda love, but appropriate attention.