[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
one indirectly claims it does the same thing from level 4 to 50
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, that was Rad I was refering to.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was refering to Poobah as the one-trick-pony proponent. Magicj, you have been a consistent (and lonely) proponent of the idea that FF is a versatile set.
[ QUOTE ]
<ul type="square">[*]FF's lack of damage buffs highlights Defender's low damage.[*]FF's Knockback highlights their poorly designed cone attacks.[*]FF's remarkable ability to herd highlights the uselessness of Defender's nukes solo.[*]FF's low Defense for the FFer highlights Defender's lack of a Defensive shield in their Epics.[*]FF's strong ability to keep a team healthy highlights the poor design of Vigilence.[*] The common FF playstyle of shielding the team and then using your other powers means you spend the majority of your time using the flawed secondary.[/list]
[/ QUOTE ]
Nice list, and it immediately leads to the already-proposed changes.
<ul type="square">[*]Give FF a damage buff power[*]Increase the non-buff primaries' utility value to make them actually useful[/list]
The discussion has slowed down, and the amount of new ideas is now a trickle: perhaps it is time to make a new consolidation attempt? Once we have that, we can begin to discuss the viability of the ideas; I propose discussing all ideas for one power at a time.
Hi everyone! 
Consolidation might be a good idea. Before i post anything concerning my ideas on FF, i would just like a clarification (really don't feel like going over all the pages again at the moment. 
):
Are the changes proposed here for the Defender version of Force Fields only to improve it as a primary set over the controller secondary, or is this for all FF in general? As i've seen here and from friends who've played it on both sides, it seems kinda unanimous that FF as a controller secondary is pretty fine as is (in most opinions i've gathered so far). Thanks for the clarification.
Cypher Flash: 50 TA/Rad/Dark Defender
Controller = The Guardian Angel over your shoulder who makes sure nothing goes wrong.
Defender = The Combat Corpsman who bandages your wound, kills a Nazi with a tounge depressor, then hands you a clip of ammo.
NEW Consolidated List of FF Change Suggestions
These suggestions are in order of their appearance in the thread. All suggestions listed so far in the thread have been added here, whether I agree with them or not. MY favorites are listed in yellow.... just cause I can.
[u]General Requests[u]<ul type="square">[*]Add a Defense DeBuff somewhere.[*]Give us a way to add to the team's damage.[*]Suggested power: Force Wall, a placeable "wall" of force that cannot be passed, suggested 40 foot length.[*]Add "movement powers" to the set, like Kinetics has, justified as us giving ourselves and teammates "low friction".[*]Add more contextually-sensitive elements to environments that activate for various effects under various conditions. Similar to dynamite or light-able oil-slicks that already exist in-game.[*]Add a "combo system" to the powerset that would give team buffs or enemy debuffs depending on in what order powers were used.[/list]
[u]Power Specific[u]
Personal Force Field:<ul type="square">[*]Allow slotting for +Res.[*]Allow the field to be "suppressed", allowing the bubbler to fire through it with either a loss of defense or with a severe defense and/or resistance penalty.[*]Allow the user to affect allies while in the field.[/list]
Deflection and Insulation Shields:<ul type="square">[*]Switch the Defense percentages between Dispersion Bubble and Insulation and Deflection Shields.[*]Make them into PBAoE auras.[*]Add +Recovery to Insulation Shield.[*] Prevent stacking from same characters on zoning and make them last 15 minutes or until zoning.[*]Speed up the cast times.[/list]
Dispersion Bubble:<ul type="square">[*]Replace the sleep weakness with an immobilize weakness.[*]Add +Recovery to all allies.[*]Increase the size to the same as Force Bubble, or switch their sizes.[*]Add some defense debuff resistance.[/list]
Force Bolt:<ul type="square">[*] Add a low percentage chance to disorient, or a minor disorient.[*]Increase the toggle dropping ability.[*] Increase the knockback magnitude.[*]Add -Damage or -Resistance.[*]Add more damage to the power.[*]Add KnockUP Mag as well.[*]Add an immobilize component against AVs/EBs/GMs only.[*]Give it a 25-30 damage base.[/list]
Detention Field:<ul type="square">[*]Add a short-term placate effect to anyone that tries to attack the enemy that's detained.[*] Change to a timed toggle power so that it can be turned off at will but is forced off if left on too long. [*]Change the graphic to where its super super obvious that thing has been detained.[*]Add a power icon to the bubbler's status window to show when the field is about to lift.[*]Make the target of the field unable untargettable by anyone (possibly until 5 seconds before the power deactivate).[*]Make the detained target unable to affect itself as well.[*]Add -Regen to the detained target.[*]Allow it to target enemies or allies.[*]Make Cold, Fire, Energy, and Neg. Energy attacks directed at the detained target become small radius AoEs of the same damage type - a splash effect. [*]Change to a Mag 4 Sleep.[*]Allow player attacks to "move" the detained target even if they do no damage.[*]Change to an immobilize and adds -Accuracy to the enemy.[*]Make into a targettable AoE.[*]Make into a "reverse Personal Force Field". The enemy has high Defense and Damage Resistance but can't attack.[*]Add damage to the Detained enemy while it's inside the field.[*]Increase the immobilize magnitude and add -teleport.[*]Reduce duration and recharge, and allow us to slot it for duration.[*]Change to a toggle that has an increasing endurance cost to maintain.[/list]
Repulsion Field :<ul type="square">[*] Increase the endurance cost per hit and increase the "pulse" rate of the knockback pulses, or change the pulse rate the the same as that of Repel in Kinetics.[*]Add a knockback magnitude modifier that is based on the radius distance away from the PBAoE; the closer to the center of the PBAoE the higher the magnitude of the KB.[*]Either increase the magnitude to make it more powerful or decrease it to make it knockdown.[*]Add a small percent chance to disorient or a +Slow effect to enemies.[*]Add a "negative Power Boost" effect: reduces all enemy effects i.e. mez durations, defense buffs, heals, etc.[*]Give it a larger radius but decrease the pulse rate.[*]Alternatively, make it half the size of Dispersion Bubble and increase the knockback magnitude.[*]Change it to a PBAoE click power that disorients and knocks back all foes.[*]Change into a Defender version of Bonfire: It would be a placeable AoE knockback object.[*]Change it into a pet that follows you and has it's own PBAoE Repel ability.[*]Give it a 25-30 damage base, and add a ToHit check.[*]Add +Resistance to the user.[/list]
Repulsion Bomb:<ul type="square">[*] Decrease the animation and/or cast time SUBSTANTIALLY.[*]Increase the chance to stun substantially, or change the knockback into knockdown.[*]Increase the recharge time of the power to 2 or 3 minutes and/or increase the endurance cost. (Assuming that one or more of the items above are done as well)[*]Increase the damage the power does to that of a tier 1 blast.[*]Change it to an AoE or cone version of Force Bolt.[*]Change into a Defender version of Bonfire: It would be a placeable AoE knockback object.[*]Add a -Defense, -Resistance or -Regen.[*]Change it back to ally-targeted, or fix the description in-game.[*]Add a Transference effect.[*]Make it a placeable AoE or targeted AoE with a "reverse knockback" effect that sucks all enemies towards it.[*]Replace with a "Frostworks-Like Shield".[*]Change to a single target ranged 100% chance of Stun power.[*]Change it to be exactly like "the old Nemesis Staff".[/list]
Force Bubble:<ul type="square">[*]Increase the chance of knockdown/back.[*]Make it give +10% Resistance to all, or 5-10% Defense bonus to the FFer.[*] Make it the same radius as Dispersion, or switch the radii of the two powers.[*]Increase the magnitude of the Repel effect and/or add a +Slow component to the power.[*]Reduce the endurance cost or the recharge.[*]Change to a -Damage, -Speed, -Recharge, -Accuracy, -ToHit, or -Resistance aura. (Pick and choose your DeBuffs)[*]Add a +ToHit or +Damage, +Regen or +Recovery to allies. (Pick and choose your Buffs)[*]Make it exactly like Hurricane[*]Change to a 30 second click power instead of a toggle.[*]Give all allies within +perception.[*]Make mobs "stick" to the edge of the power.[*]Make force bubble into two bubbles: Inner bubble same size as dispersion and act as FB does now, outside bubble would be the same size as FB is now, but does KD instead of repel.[*]Similar to the previous suggestion but: an inner bubble that pushes out, and an outer bubble that pushes in.[/list]
All similar or identical suggestions were removed.
Please consider the following guidelines with your future suggestions:
No Cottages: The smaller the change, the more likely it is to become reality.
Maintain the Theme: Force Fields is known best for damage mitigation, it is also known for Knockback, Repel, and "Phasing".
Equivalent Exchange: For balance reasons, it's easier to give something up to get something. No free lunches unless something is vastly underpowered.
Please feel free to post your future suggestions here. I will offer no more negative criticisms of them.
Here is a shortcut so that you can refer to this post in the future as a new "starting point": http://tinyurl.com/3a8ly8
I realize that this is just a collection of ideas, but that list still strikes me as needlessly greedy. A few tweaks (including some listed) would be nice, but most of these are completely over the top. FF is not i4 Ice Armor, it really doesn't need large makeovers to its powers.
It's nice that we have a list, though.
Edit: Wait, it's not an ally-based AoE any more? What is it now?
Personal Force Field: I really like the supression idea where the defenses drop if you attack. Give the allowed attacks an accuracy penalty akin to Group Flight, and perhaps only allow the Tier 1 and 2 attacks from the secondary, so that you can't abuse sniper attacks. Perhaps also reduce the range of any attacks that are allowed.
Deflection Field: Any buffs to this power should reduce the duration of the bubble. I like this power as-is.
Force Bolt: Increase the chance of detoggles. Add some type of anti-anti-knockback power that would reduce the protections the target has without increasing the magnitude of the bolt. Alternatively, allow knock-back enhancers to increase the magnitude of the KB.
Insulation Field: Any buffs to this power should reduce the duration of the bubble. I like this power as-is.
Detention Field: Make it more obvious; make it opaque or have some "DO NOT ATTACK" graphic posted above it, whatever. Allow it to take hold duration enhancers. Alternatively make it work like the Hibernate toggle in that you can turn it off early but it cannot go past a certain time.
Dispersion Bubble: I like swapping sleep -> immob weakness. Also add defense debuff resistance. Anything else might reduce the effectiveness of the power.
Repulsion Field: I really like the Bonfire idea. Include chance for stunn.
Repulsion Bomb: Super Force Bolt, akin to Nemesis Staff.
Force Bubble: Add -Dam and -Acc to Smashing and Lethal Attacks
DestineeFable's Guide to an MSTF run (fixed!)
My latest AE madness
[ QUOTE ]
Edit: Wait, it's not an ally-based AoE any more? What is it now?
[/ QUOTE ]It's been enemy-targeted for over two years.
...
Yeah.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
[ QUOTE ]
It's been enemy-targeted for over two years.
...
Yeah.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I haven't played in over two years. Okay, I've been back for three months, but what did you expect me to do? Actually take the power and try it, with the old description still up? That'd be like respec'ing into Call of the Wolf (Katana Taunt) based on some desperate hope that it now works like Focus (Claws cannon).
Oh, and I HATE the idea of making PFF supress like a stealth ability or travel power. If I had to wait ten seconds to activate it after performing my last attack, I'd respec out of it without a second thought.
Edit: Spelling.
magicj's updated list of concerns with changing FF
Link to this post
Additions/changes in yellow.
[u]General Concerns[u]<ul type="square">[*]Force Fields generally works as-is for every AT other than Defenders. This suggests to me that the problem is with Defenders' secondaries, not Force Fields. This general concern is based both on which ATs tend to complain about FF and which don't, and from personal experience playing FF in varous ATs including Defenders. I have no wish to see FF "fixed" by designing it to match these flaws. A few fixes to the design of Defenders that would help FFers are:
__________Correcting Defenders' cone blasts so they work with the Knockback of FF and reducing the Endurance cost of Defenders' nukes to 85% will vastly improve the FF Defenders' (and other Defenders') ability to solo without disrupting FF in other ATs. Correcting the cones will also make the Knockback powers more attractive to Defenders who team regularly.
__________Adding a Defender Epic Pool that offers a +DEF shield and a way to overcome catastrophic defense failure will solve the problem of FF Defenders being underprotected without overpowering or nerfing Controller and Mastermind Defense.
__________Reworking Vigilence so that it provides some sort of useful bonus to Defenders, including FF Defenders. [*]I personally see it likely that any changes other than minor tweaks to existing capabilties will ripple through to ATs other than Defenders. Because FF is working so well for me in other ATs, I personally don't want to see this happen. [*]I do not wish to see any changes in Force Fields take priority over known issues, such as the performance of Defense based sets against ToHit buffs, particularly in PvP.[/list][u]Power Specific[u]
Personal Force Field:<ul type="square">[*]FF already has the ability to protect the player with Dispersion Bubble. This, combined with Epic/PP shields offers significant personal protection while still using other powers. I don't see any great need to modify PFF to add to that protection. As an example, an FF Controller with Dispersion Bubble and the Epic Ice Shield has stronger Smashing/Lethal Defense than an Ice Tank. [*]Any change to the power that significantly lowers it's Defense will cripple not only this power, but the entire set. I consider PFF to be the single most important power in the set. It is _the_ keystone power of Force Fields.[*] Any change that significantly increases the recharge time of this power will be crippling. [/list]
Deflection and Insulation Shields:<ul type="square">[*]I have no concerns about these powers and don't consider them to be key powers in the set for ATs other than Defenders. Useful, yes. But not key.[/list]
Dispersion Bubble:<ul type="square">[*]I'd like to see this power retain it's current Defensive capability. I do not wish to see its Defense increased (due to Controllers and Masterminds then having too much Defense) or lowered as part of a trade off for an "improvement". [*]I don't want to see it's Hold or Stun protection lowered.[*]I naturally have no objection to adding Sleep protection, so long as there is no trade-off in Defense or Hold and Stun protection.[/list]
Force Bolt:<ul type="square">[*]I personally don't consider this to be a key FF power for any AT other than Defenders. I have no concerns with changes to this power.[/list]
Detention Field:<ul type="square">[*]I have no objection to buff the Defender version of this power so that it can "cage" AVs.[*]I have no objection to making this power more visible.[*]Other than that I do no want to see any changes to this power's existing capabilities. Specificlly, I don't want to see it changed to a toggle unless the Endurance cost of running the toggle is slight and the toggle recharges almost instantly after being turned off. [*]I have no objection to the Devs adding +Pie to the power, so long as existing capabilities are kept.[/list]
Repulsion Field :<ul type="square">[*]I do not want to see this power changed to a drop. Such a change would _reduce_ it's effectiveness. A PBAoE toggle can simulate a drop simply by standing in one place. A drop cannot simulate a PBAoE toggle.[*]I do not have any objection to buffing the power's current capabilities, such a pulse increase or Endurance reduction if the Devs feel such changes are not overpowered. I do not consider such buffs to be a need.[*]I do not consider adding +Pie to this power to be a need, but would not object to it.[/list]
Repulsion Bomb:<ul type="square">[*]I do not wish to see this power changed to Knockdown as this _reduces_ the capabilities of the power. All Knockback powers can be made to cause Knockdown with the use of positioning. The reverse is not true.[*] I do not wish to see the power changed to a cone, as this would _reduce_ the capabilities of the powers. A cone effect is already possible with the use of positioning. But a cone power cannot provide 360 Knockback with positioning.[*]I do not wish to see this power changed to work off an teammate. I find this power to be extremely useful solo.[*]I have no objection to buffs to existing capabilities such as damage, Endurance cost, casting and recharge time if the Devs feel such buffs are not overpowered. I do not consider such buffs to be a need.[*] I do not consider +Pie to be a need, but would not object to it.[/list]
Force Bubble:<ul type="square">[*]I do not wish to see the size of the bubble changed. Its large size is extremely useful in a variety of situtations, including herding, finding hidden baddies, and using it with other controls and geometry to mimic a Hold. A smaller sized bubble can currently be mimiced by the FFer backing up. [*] +DEF should not be added to this power as it will provide too much Defense to Controllers and Masterminds when combined with their +DEF Epic shields. A small amount of +RES could be added, but I don't feel it's needed. [*]I do not want to see any other form of +Pie added to this power. In particular, I do not wish to see a -Speed, -Recharge, or -Damage capability added.[/list]
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's been enemy-targeted for over two years.
...
Yeah.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I haven't played in over two years. Okay, I've been back for three months, but what did you expect me to do? Actually take the power and try it, with the old description still up? That'd be like respec'ing into Call of the Wolf (Katana Taunt) based on some desperate hope that it now works like Focus (Claws cannon).
Oh, and I HATE the idea of making PFF supress like a stealth ability or travel power. If I had to wait ten seconds to activate it after performing my last attack, I'd respec out of it without a second thought.
Edit: Spelling.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd be a little bit more reticent about commenting on a thread when you haven't played the set in question for 2 years.
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and I HATE the idea of making PFF supress like a stealth ability or travel power. If I had to wait ten seconds to activate it after performing my last attack, I'd respec out of it without a second thought.
[/ QUOTE ]
And on my defenders I never take PFF in the first place because I *can't* attack though it.
Moreover, you could hypothetically *never* attack out of a supressable PFF as is described above and you'd always have the PFF protection, so voila problem solved. You gonna respec out of that?
DestineeFable's Guide to an MSTF run (fixed!)
My latest AE madness
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's been enemy-targeted for over two years.
...
Yeah.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I haven't played in over two years. Okay, I've been back for three months, but what did you expect me to do? Actually take the power and try it, with the old description still up? That'd be like respec'ing into Call of the Wolf (Katana Taunt) based on some desperate hope that it now works like Focus (Claws cannon).
Oh, and I HATE the idea of making PFF supress like a stealth ability or travel power. If I had to wait ten seconds to activate it after performing my last attack, I'd respec out of it without a second thought.
Edit: Spelling.
[/ QUOTE ]
[Second edit:] Suppression usually does not turn off a power when activated, so you wouldn't be waiting 10 seconds to turn it back on. With defensive powers suppression normally just cuts the value in half for the duration of suppression. In the case of PFF i can't imagine that it would be made suppressible without first drastically slashing its current values. Personally i'd rather leave it as is, but would probably keep it even if it was changed.
The "... Yeah." was meant as a response to the (presumed) disbelief someone would feel when finding out that the most basic description of a power was completely wrong for over two years. It was intended as a sort of sarcastic comment regarding the Developer/QA attention the powerset has received until extremely recently. (Though i'm pretty sure the RB description on test is still unchanged/wrong.)
[i]Edit: As of now on test the short and long description has been modified to list damage as moderate.
The short description just states "Ranged (Targeted AoE)", the longer description still says "Projects an expanding Force Bubble around an ally that knocks down and Disorients nearby foes."
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
[ QUOTE ]
Edit: As of now on test the short and long description has been modified to list damage as moderate.
The short description just states "Ranged (Targeted AoE)", the longer description still says "Projects an expanding Force Bubble around an ally that knocks down and Disorients nearby foes."
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow. They can increase the damage of the power tenfold, but they can't correct a text error in the power's description that's been around for two years?
Just wow.
Couple of counterpoints/questions:
[ QUOTE ]
Correcting the cones will also make the Knockback powers more attractive to Defenders who team regularly.
[/ QUOTE ]
How do you propose to correct the cones, and how does that make knockback powers more attractive to teams?
[ QUOTE ]
Adding a Defender Epic Pool that offers a +DEF shield and a way to overcome catastrophic defense failure will solve the problem of FF Defenders being underprotected without overpowering or nerfing Controller and Mastermind Defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lack of defense has much less to do with the squishiness of FF in the later levels than the sleep hole in dispersion does, and since FF already have access to tough/weave and maneuvers, adding a defense shield would allow the FF to get too much defense.
Either that, or the shield would have to be typed defense instead of positional, and would make it pretty much useless considering IO interaction.
To put it in perspective, a FF who has wants to can get 34%+ defense and 65%+ smash/lethal resists.
[ QUOTE ]
Reworking Vigilence so that it provides some sort of useful bonus to Defenders, including FF Defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats a defender issue, not an FF issue.
In fact, anything that deals with secondaries would be a defender issue as well, and really doesnt belong in this thread, it should have a thread of its own.
[ QUOTE ]
I personally see it likely that any changes other than minor tweaks to existing capabilties will ripple through to ATs other than Defenders. Because FF is working so well for me in other ATs, I personally don't want to see this happen.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lifes rough. If its broken, it needs to be fixed.
Odds are that if it works for defenders it will work well for other sets also. Heck, it will probably be better than it is now.
As for specific powers:
[ QUOTE ]
Blah blah blah, I dont want them changed because I like them how they are blah blah*
[/ QUOTE ]
We understand.
No really, we do.
It sucks to have something you like get changed, but that doesnt mean the change doesnt need to happen.
Whether you will admit it or not, FF is not built correctly for defenders or anyone else.
Sure, controllers and masterminds have ways to work a round the problems of the set (and sometimes even use said problems to their advantage) but that doesnt change that the problems exist.
By the way, you telling us to ignore the man behind the curtain isnt going to work.
Even the scarecrow can see through that trick, and the poor thing doesnt even have a brain...
* Quote modified for brevity and entertainment value. Its also exactly what my brain saw when I was reading, so as far as im concerned its a valid quote.
Consolidation time - or culling time if you prefer. A free-for-all duck shoot on others' ideas. Please try to keep it civil. Magicj has already begun. I'll start this off by commenting on the ideas as presented here.
[u]General Requests[u]<ul type="square">[*]Add a Defense DeBuff somewhere.[/list]Not thematic, and +damage both fits better and is more useful. Lets unify around that instead.<ul type="square">[*]Give us a way to add to the team's damage.[*]Suggested power: Force Wall, a placeable "wall" of force that cannot be passed, suggested 40 foot length.[/list]There are only round drop effects in this game, so this falls under the "bonfire-lookalike" power suggested for Repulsion Bomb.<ul type="square">[*]Add "movement powers" to the set, like Kinetics has, justified as us giving ourselves and teammates "low friction".[/list]Very non-thematic to me. <ul type="square">[*]Add more contextually-sensitive elements to environments that activate for various effects under various conditions. Similar to dynamite or light-able oil-slicks that already exist in-game.[/list]Not a FF change; stay on topic people<ul type="square">[*]Add a "combo system" to the powerset that would give team buffs or enemy debuffs depending on in what order powers were used.[/list]Definitely a "cottage the way I see it. Dual Blades have this as their special - it is their only side effect. To activate, these need to hit. The proposed FF versions would be automatic, free candy. This won't happen. <ul type="square">[/list]
[u]Power Specific[u]
Personal Force Field:
<ul type="square">[*]Allow slotting for +Res.[*]Allow the field to be "suppressed", allowing the bubbler to fire through it with either a loss of defense or with a severe defense and/or resistance penalty. *Allow the user to affect allies while in the field.[/list]On suppression: What COULD be done here is something akin to what the new Rage does - a -999% damage boost. But I'm afraid this isn't going to happen. This power is just too powerful and has too much utility (mainly to non-Defenders), even if it has a steep learning curve and seems pretty useless to casual users. Also, this would be nonintuitive - there needs to be some VERY obvious indication that the power is suppressed, and I still think this would lead to may players mistakenly relying on a suppressed PFF.[/list]
Dispersion Bubble:
All solid ideas, tough the + Recovery fits better in a completely revamped Force bubble IMO.
<ul type="square">[*]Replace the sleep weakness with an immobilize weakness.[*]Add +Recovery to all allies.[*]Increase the size to the same as Force Bubble, or switch their sizes.[*]Add some defense debuff resistance.[/list]
Force Bolt:
<ul type="square">[*] Add a low percentage chance to disorient, or a minor disorient.[*]Increase the toggle dropping ability.[*] Increase the knockback magnitude.[*]Add -Damage or -Resistance.[*]Add more damage to the power.[*]Add KnockUP Mag as well.[*]Add an immobilize component against AVs/EBs/GMs only.[*]Give it a 25-30 damage base.[/list]None of these ideas is stellar (including my own delayed knockup idea), this power does what it does pretty well. Only change I can see is replacing it with something else, which is a cottage change.
Detention Field:
<ul type="square">[*]Add a short-term placate effect to anyone that tries to attack the enemy that's detained. *Make the target of the field unable untargettable by anyone (possibly until 5 seconds before the power deactivate).[/list]Merged these two suggestions; they are essentially the same. I could see a short-duration placate (1 second or so) to everyone, making those who have the detainee targeted target someone else. But attacking the detainee actually does something now; it lets you built (a little) aggro on them, predisposing them to attack you when they get out. I think making the FX more obvious is a much better solution. <ul type="square">[*]Reduce duration and recharge, and allow us to slot it for duration.[/list]This was my solution to the above problem - we get to decide how long the power lasts through slotting. The drawback is that a power than now requires no slotting would require some to keep its present duration. The bonus is a shorter recharge. I think this version would better fit how the power is actually used.<ul type="square">[*]Change the graphic to where its super super obvious that thing has been detained.[*]Add a power icon to the bubbler's status window to show when the field is about to lift.[/list]While it would be nice, I don't think this can be done, as the duration is not fixed but varies depending on the level and rank (minion, boss etc) of the detainee. <ul type="square">[*]Make the detained target unable to affect itself as well.[/list]Add a hold, you mean? Too strong, and doesn't make sense thematically<ul type="square">[*]Allow it to target enemies or allies.[/list]Cannot be done with the current engine<ul type="square">[*]Make Cold, Fire, Energy, and Neg. Energy attacks directed at the detained target become small radius AoEs of the same damage type - a splash effect.[/list]Pretty sure this cannot be done with the current engine<ul type="square">[*]Allow player attacks to "move" the detained target even if they do no damage.[/list]Pretty sure this cannot be done with the current engine, as the insubstantial effect would break any such effect<ul type="square">[*]Make into a targettable AoE.[/list]There is a reason no-one ever takes Black Hole, a power much less useful than this one<ul type="square">[*] Change to a timed toggle power so that it can be turned off at will but is forced off if left on too long. Change to a toggle that has an increasing endurance cost to maintain.[/list]This is impossible; toggle powers can't affect insubstantial enemies (which is that this power does). <ul type="square">[*]Increase the immobilize magnitude and add -teleport.[/list]A good idea, fits thematically and makes the power do what it is purported to do. Particularly the weak immobilize is annoying - NOTHING should move this field. <ul type="square">[*]Increase magnitude so the defender version reliably cages AVs.[/list](Magicj's suggestion that didn't get included in the summary). If this isn't already so, it is a very good idea.<ul type="square">[/list]The ideas below are "cottage" changes or miscellaneous bonuses that add little real playability and are out of focus.<ul type="square">[*]Change to a Mag 4 Sleep.[*]Change to an immobilize and adds -Accuracy to the enemy.[*]Make into a "reverse Personal Force Field". The enemy has high Defense and Damage Resistance but can't attack.[*]Add -Regen to the detained target.[*]Add damage to the Detained enemy while it's inside the field.[/list]
Repulsion Field :
The list of suggestions here is very chaotic; perhaps a more fundamental discussion on whether we want this power at all, and what it is supposed to do in such a case is needed. My idea is still to merge this with Force Bubble, perhaps simply by layering them; make one power that has the effect of presently running both the powers.
<ul type="square">[*] Increase the endurance cost per hit and increase the "pulse" rate of the knockback pulses, or change the pulse rate the same as that of Repel in Kinetics.[*]Add a knockback magnitude modifier that is based on the radius distance away from the PBAoE; the closer to the center of the PBAoE the higher the magnitude of the KB.[/list]This could be done by having several concentric layers of effect, but would tax the system a lot more; don't think its realistic<ul type="square">[*]Either increase the magnitude to make it more powerful or decrease it to make it knockdown.[*]Add a small percent chance to disorient or a +Slow effect to enemies.[*]Give it a larger radius but decrease the pulse rate.[*]Alternatively, make it half the size of Dispersion Bubble and increase the knockback magnitude.[*]Change it to a PBAoE click power that disorients and knocks back all foes.[*]Change into a Defender version of Bonfire: It would be a placeable AoE knockback object.[/list]Agree with magicj - this doesn't sit well here (much better on Repulsion Bomb).<ul type="square">[*]Change it into a pet that follows you and has it's own PBAoE Repel ability.[*]Give it a 25-30 damage base, and add a ToHit check.[/list]Damage aura on a Defender? Because Blasters love them so dearly? No thanks.<ul type="square">[*]Add +Resistance to the user.[/list]
Repulsion Bomb:
Another chaotic suggestion list, which to me suggests that this power needs to be replaced entirely.
<ul type="square">[*] Decrease the animation and/or cast time SUBSTANTIALLY.[*]Increase the chance to stun substantially, or change the knockback into knockdown.[*]Increase the recharge time of the power to 2 or 3 minutes and/or increase the endurance cost. (Assuming that one or more of the items above are done as well)[*]Increase the damage the power does to that of a tier 1 blast.[/list]This is now being done, which I think is very sad. It might make people hurt their teams with scatter in order to cause insignificant damage. It is another power that helps Controllers (with immobilize) a LOT more than defenders, which means Controllers will resist a later change to make the power actually useful. Overall, BAD news to Defenders.<ul type="square">[*]Change it to an AoE or cone version of Force Bolt.[*]Change it to be exactly like "the old Nemesis Staff".[*]Change into a Defender version of Bonfire: It would be a placeable AoE knockback object.[*]Add a -Defense, -Resistance or -Regen.[*]Change it back to ally-targeted, or fix the description in-game.[*]Add a Transference effect.[*]Make it a placeable AoE or targeted AoE with a "reverse knockback" effect that sucks all enemies towards it.[*]Replace with a "Frostworks-Like Shield".[*]Change to a single target ranged 100% chance of Stun power.[/list]
Force Bubble:
I stand by my idea to combine this with Repulsion Field; the two are too similar to exist in the same set. This leaves a power open for something entirely new, that should include +damage like a super-Assault (an energizing effect).
<ul type="square">[*]Increase the chance of knockdown/back.[*]Make it give +10% Resistance to all, or 5-10% Defense bonus to the FFer.[*] Make it the same radius as Dispersion, or switch the radii of the two powers.[*]Increase the magnitude of the Repel effect and/or add a +Slow component to the power.[*]Reduce the endurance cost or the recharge.[/list]End cost is already very low.<ul type="square">[*]Change to a -Damage, -Speed, -Recharge, -Accuracy, -ToHit, or -Resistance aura. (Pick and choose your DeBuffs)[*]Add a +ToHit or +Damage, +Regen or +Recovery to allies. (Pick and choose your Buffs)[*]Make it exactly like Hurricane [*]Change to a 30 second click power instead of a toggle.[/list]Absolutely not! One of its main assets is that it can be turned off!<ul type="square">[*]Give all allies within +perception.[*]Make mobs "stick" to the edge of the power.[*]Make force bubble into two bubbles: Inner bubble same size as dispersion and act as FB does now, outside bubble would be the same size as FB is now, but does KD instead of repel.[/lsit]If you switch the outer and inner effect, I could sing on this idea
- Similar to the previous suggestion but: an inner bubble that pushes out, and an outer bubble that pushes in.
Phew, hope I managed most of the formatting bugs and false references on this beast of a post.
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* Increase magnitude so the defender version reliably cages AVs.
(Magicj's suggestion that didn't get included in the summary). If this isn't already so, it is a very good idea.
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There is no "mag" for the cage affect, there is only the chance to hit. If you have some extreme accuracy on the power, it will hit anything. Most people just don't add full accuracy to it. It's not like Holds or Sleeps that have Magnitude, there is no such thing as a "Cage Magnitude". Take a look at it's entry on RedTomax' site. The only "mag" the power has is called OnlyAffectsSelf, and AFAIK, there is no such thing as "resistance to OnlyAffectsSelf". I could be wrong.
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Repulsion Field :
The list of suggestions here is very chaotic...
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Not really chaotic at all, the list does NOT include repeat suggestions, and MOST people offered the same suggestion, which was this:
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*Increase the endurance cost per hit and increase the "pulse" rate of the knockback pulses, or change the pulse rate the same as that of Repel in Kinetics.
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The rest are miscellaneous "+Pie" that other people wanted to throw in there. Most people agree that this power would be more useful if it wasn't "pulses" but more like Kinetic's Repel, namely, "always on, always repelling".
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Repulsion Bomb:
Another chaotic suggestion list, which to me suggests that this power needs to be replaced entirely.
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Wrong again. This is what happens when you take out the "number of votes" for each idea and consolidate similar ideas into one. Again, MOST people in post after post requested the EXACT same changes to the power that they said would make them want to take it:
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# Decrease the animation and/or cast time SUBSTANTIALLY.
# Increase the chance to stun substantially, or change the knockback into knockdown.
# Increase the recharge time of the power to 2 or 3 minutes and/or increase the endurance cost. (Assuming that one or more of the items above are done as well)
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As a final note, I really, honestly, truly think that the idea of "throwing out" a power completely and replacing it with a new power is out of the question. Especially for an almost four year old set. I don't think such talk about replacing powers is constructive at all, and in my humble opinion, the suggestions where a power is completely changed into a new power are the least helpful type of suggestions.
No Cottages.
I never really thought Cage magnitude was a problem; only magicj mentioned it. If his idea about insufficient magnitude was relevant, I supported increasing it. If it isn't then all is well on that issue. I think I recall caging even Giant Monsters (if very briefly), so I think this is as it should be. A quick test on some GM would be good; it would let us kill the issue completely if successful.
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*Increase the endurance cost [of Repulsion Field] per hit and increase the "pulse" rate of the knockback pulses, or change the pulse rate the same as that of Repel in Kinetics.
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Are you seriously saying people wanted to increase the variable part of the End cost? I haven't counted hands here, but this is nor my impression at all. Especially combined with a more rapid pulse, this would make this a "drain end on self" power. If anything, having the end cost/target removed was what I saw requested.
Wording might be confusing us here.
Basically, people just want it to do what it's SUPPOSED to do consistently, instead of half-[censored] like it does now. And the people I've seen posting have been willing to accept an increase in the cost to get it to happen.
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I never really thought Cage magnitude was a problem; only magicj mentioned it.
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Actually, it was BurningChick who said it doesn't reliably cage AVs, I believe. I simply pointed out that the Controller version does cage AVs (there's an example of me doing that in the video in my sig) and if the Defender version didn't, I have no objection to seeing it get buffed. In other words, I wouldn't consider that to be "stepping on the toes" of Controllers.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
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I never really thought Cage magnitude was a problem; only magicj mentioned it.
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Actually, it was BurningChick who said it doesn't reliably cage AVs, I believe. I simply pointed out that the Controller version does cage AVs (there's an example of me doing that in the video in my sig) and if the Defender version didn't, I have no objection to seeing it get buffed. In other words, I wouldn't consider that to be "stepping on the toes" of Controllers.
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Since this thread has started I've tried to capture "the big four" in the STF. Think of how useful it would be to the team for a FF'er to capture one of them when the pull goes bad. I was unable to affect any one of them despite multiple attempts. The power was slotted with ACC and Recharge IO's at that time.
- B.
Crey Threat Assessment: Bayne
Virtueverse: Bayne
The Defenders of Paragon
A QR for the 'troller:
Knock down is turned into KB quite easily by using KB enhancements. Lowering the mag of Repulsion Bomb's KB actually /increases/ the power's utility by letting players slot (or not, as the case may be) in order to achieve the desired effect.
Also: buried in this thread I dug up the CoD numbers for DF showing that 'trollers get more mag out of the power than defenders.
Always been my experience that there is a magnitude limit for Detention Field. It does not seem to work on Elite Bosses or even deep purple bosses. Its not an accuracy issue. I have the power slotted for accuracy and there is no report of the power missing in these circumstances.
So I agree with you -- up its magnitude a bit and it becomes very useful. I also am among those who think the graphic needs to be made more obvious. That's all I really want changed to the power myself.
"Fixing" FF is a difficult problem because its not exactly broken. I mean the big 3 powers are REALLY effective. The problem is that this makes fixing the set harder rather than easier.
Most of my list of changes (way back on page 1 I think) were more quality of life types of things. I almost prefer soloing my bubbler because then I can use all my powers. In a group, I really cant use half of them or at least not nearly as frequently or effectively. And suprisingly, she soloes okay -- just very very slowly.
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Knock down is turned into KB quite easily by using KB enhancements. Lowering the mag of Repulsion Bomb's KB actually /increases/ the power's utility by letting players slot (or not, as the case may be) in order to achieve the desired effect.
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QFT
I would love it if they just made a blanket change to the set and turned down ALL the KB numbers by default to just under 1 so that they are all KD by default. Then guess what? You slot in one KB enhancement or not, and it acts like a "switch" that turns it into knockback or not.
I REALLY think that this idea more than anything would make the set infinitely more playable to the average player.
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one indirectly claims it does the same thing from level 4 to 50
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Um, that was Rad I was refering to.
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I believe this was a reference to the opposing viewpoint, not yours.
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<ul type="square">[*]FF's lack of damage buffs highlights Defender's low damage.
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And it's the only set that does so as acutely.
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[*]FF's Knockback highlights their poorly designed cone attacks.
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Or perhaps it just highlights how limited it is in this context?
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[*]FF's remarkable ability to herd highlights the uselessness of Defender's nukes solo.
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Again, FF is also the only set where this is a serious drawback. Also depends on WHICH secondary is being used. Also, good tank will be able to outherd a FF defender WHILE being able to do some decent damage.
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[*]FF's low Defense for the FFer highlights Defender's lack of a Defensive shield in their Epics.
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I'm in agreement here. Sort of. However, I would reverse this saying that FF's low Defense is further highlighted by the Defender's lack of a Defensive shield in their Epics.
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[*]FF's strong ability to keep a team healthy highlights the poor design of Vigilence.
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Actually ANY defender doing a good job will highlight the poor design of Vigilence.
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[*] The common FF playstyle of shielding the team and then using your other powers means you spend the majority of your time using the flawed secondary.[/list]
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Then maybe CHANGING the FF set to give some more USEFUL things to do (other than be a tank, which I have no desire of doing while playing an FF, nor do I think this was an intended role).
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This doesn't mean that FF couldn't use a tweak here or there. But this thread has been an extremely poor way to go about it right from the beginning. It's been little more than insults, ideas that don't even work with existing game mechanics, and "cry moer" in hopes the new Dev team will throw some +Pie your way just to shut you up. I can only hope no ideas from this thread ever see the light of day.
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And cynicism and blanket-statements go a long way toward truly making this set useful for the average player. Thank you!
=^..^=. o O (Nothing to see. Just a cat.)
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*Recipient of a Sentai Sage thumbs up of approval.
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