As a PBAOE, the bubbles would cost something in the district of 45 endurance each to fire.
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Of course it wouldn't make them into tanks. That's not the point. It's that it would make them more survivable for less cost than self buffing entities while simultaneously allowing them to have greater team utility.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
It wouldn't make them into tanks, they would have less health, less damage and no taunt effect (unless they use presence).
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If you're not sure about this, how about some math. Even you should be able to understand numbers, yes? Copied from an different thread discussing the exact same idea (here
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With just Maneuvers and SOs, an FF/* Defender is capable of putting out 44.5% +def to all positions and all damage types but psi (which just leaves 21.1% +def against non-positional psi attacks) for .44 end/sec. With SOs and Weave, an */SR Scrapper is capable of giving him/herself 36.3% +def to all positions and only 5.9% +def to all damage types for .57 end/sec. "But the Defender's lower hit point balances it out!" you say. How wrong you are... 44.5% +def reduces incoming damage by 89% on average. This means that 11% of the damage is coming through. In order to be killed, it would require 9249 damage in a single instant to kill the Defender. 36.3% +def reduces incoming damage by 72.6% on average. This means that 27.4% of the damage is coming through. In order to be killed, it would require 4885.4 damage in a single instant to kill the Scrapper. So the Defender would get 190% of the survivability of the Scrapper at 77% of the endurance cost and the Defender would be able to give this exact same level of defense to everyone else in the group whereas the Scrapper can only provide for him/herself. |
Being able to target oneself with the single target buffs is not a balanced concept. Doing so would cause steep reductions in the effectiveness of said powers.
I, for one, enjoy the fact that my FF fender can make Blaster unkillable and make any pug a dangerous force to be reckoned with. I accept the fact that she solos poorly as part and parcel of being able to render a team unkillable with barely any effort (and yes, 31.5 seconds every 4 minutes is barely any effort).
And hey, you could always team with another forcefielder and both be tankmages.
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I didn't have Mids running, I just picked numbers out of the air.|
Originally Posted by Arondell
How are you slotting that your only getting 30% defense between the individual shields and Dispersion Field? With good slotting you should be getting right around 40%. Throw in a properly slotted Maneuvers and you should be hitting 45% which is the soft cap for defense. Personal Force Field is 75% not 90% and is generally considered to be overkill for defense unless your facing something that has a big accuracy bonus. (e.g. DE eminators or Rularru Eyeballs) Less health is fairly academic when only around 5% of most incoming damage is actually hitting. So basically you get a character that can floor all enemies chance of hitting you while still fighting back. Basically like having PFF except without the disadvantages. Also without counting in any IO sets yet. So yeah I'm seeing a tank mage in the making.
This would also require a fundamental remaking of how the small shields function since you can't target yourself and getting that much defense for yourself for a paltry 7.8 endurance every 4 minutes would be very broken balance wise. Most defenses on that level are toggles. Sounds like a lot of work for something I'm fairly sure the devs wouldn't agree with. |
If you want the numbers from Mids, however...
PFF generates 117% Defense fully slotted (3 slots)
The Deflection/Insulation Shields generate 23.4%
The DIspersion Bubble generates 15.6%
If the Defender could use these powers on himself, he'd have 39% Defense.
Compare to the SR Scrapper
Focused Fighting/Focused Senses/Evasion are 21.6% Defense each
Agile/Lucky are 8.78%
The Scrapper thus has 30.4% Defense overall.
However, he also has more than 300 health more than the Defender, and does twice the damage (meaning he uses half the endurance).
Now, as I say, if that 39% is deemed to be too high, then adjust the powers to compensate. I'm not sure what the numbers would look like for adjusted shields, but it seems to me it shouldn't be terribly big. As I said before, the Defender is paying for higher defense by having less offense. My original idea of dropping the shields by 5% should be sufficient.
Again, if he was able to have that level of defense AND high offense, then he'd be a tank mage. Since he has high defense and low offense, he's not a tank mage.
However, you do make a good point, that most defenses on that level are toggles. Perhaps the trick would be to synchronize the recharge and the endurance cost to compensate.
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Ok....This is one of the big problems with how you try to make your point. In this case you made an assertion regarding Force Field that anyone with even a small familiarity with the set knew beyond any doubt was wrong. Saying such things regarding the factual aspects of your argument hurts the credibility of the opinion parts of your argument.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I didn't have Mids running, I just picked numbers out of the air.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Now, as I say, if that 39% is deemed to be too high, then adjust the powers to compensate. I'm not sure what the numbers would look like for adjusted shields, but it seems to me it shouldn't be terribly big. As I said before, the Defender is paying for higher defense by having less offense. My original idea of dropping the shields by 5% should be sufficient.
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First of all, I wasn't suggesting hard numbers, I was just shooting for ballpark numbers to illustrate my point. I figured people were smart enough to know what I meant without having to look up the actual numbers. You may notice that I did provide the actual numbers when requested (you'll also notice my ballpark numbers weren't so far off the actual ones).|
Originally Posted by Arondell
Ok....This is one of the big problems with how you try to make your point. In this case you made an assertion regarding Force Field that anyone with even a small familiarity with the set knew beyond any doubt was wrong. Saying such things regarding the factual aspects of your argument hurts the credibility of the opinion parts of your argument.
What your suggesting Defenders become sounds a great deal like what Corrupters already are. To make these changes your going to have to convince the devs that Defenders as they stand right now are broken. To do that your going to have to do more then convince people that what you want would be better. Your going to have to convince people that what is out there right now isn't, reasonably, playable. So far you haven't convinced me of the "better" aspect of why this should be done. |
Defenders wouldn't be more like Corruptors since Force Fields aren't avaialable to Corruptors. Further, Corruptors would still do more damage.
I don't have to convince anyone of anything. Anything I've said here is merely my opinion, as solicited by the thread. I suspect you're trying to carry on an argument from a different thread.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
It wouldn't make PFF pointless, since you would still be getting hit. 30% Defense does not equal 90%Defense.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
First of all, I wasn't suggesting hard numbers, I was just shooting for ballpark numbers to illustrate my point. I figured people were smart enough to know what I meant without having to look up the actual numbers. You may notice that I did provide the actual numbers when requested (you'll also notice my ballpark numbers weren't so far off the actual ones).
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The point is the same. I was describing the relationship, whatever the actual numbers were. X does not equal Y. It makes no difference if X is 30 or 39 if Y is either 75 or 90. They're still not equal.|
Originally Posted by Arondell
If you weren't suggesting hard numbers don't use "ballpark" numbers to counter specific points. The difference between 30% and 40% defense is substantial in this game. Using incorrect numbers to illustrate your point does not help.
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Either way, this is off topic.
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You're completely missing the point of all of this aren't you? It's not that FF Defenders solo are going to be balanced against SR Scrappers solo. It's that FF Defenders are going to be harder to kill than SR Scrappers for less endurance while simultaneously being able to grant that same level of survivability to everyone else on their team while the SR Scrapper just hangs around and buffs himself.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
If you want the numbers from Mids, however...
PFF generates 117% Defense fully slotted (3 slots) The Deflection/Insulation Shields generate 23.4% The DIspersion Bubble generates 15.6% If the Defender could use these powers on himself, he'd have 39% Defense. Compare to the SR Scrapper Focused Fighting/Focused Senses/Evasion are 21.6% Defense each Agile/Lucky are 8.78% The Scrapper thus has 30.4% Defense overall. However, he also has more than 300 health more than the Defender, and does twice the damage (meaning he uses half the endurance). Now, as I say, if that 39% is deemed to be too high, then adjust the powers to compensate. I'm not sure what the numbers would look like for adjusted shields, but it seems to me it shouldn't be terribly big. As I said before, the Defender is paying for higher defense by having less offense. My original idea of dropping the shields by 5% should be sufficient. Again, if he was able to have that level of defense AND high offense, then he'd be a tank mage. Since he has high defense and low offense, he's not a tank mage. However, you do make a good point, that most defenses on that level are toggles. Perhaps the trick would be to synchronize the recharge and the endurance cost to compensate. |
Did you completely ignore the post I made giving all of the numbers that you tried to give out, only more accurate and with better analysis, especially when I factored in the hit points you randomly assume will make the Scrapper more survivable? Even with numbers reduced as you would have them (and I don't think anyone else really wants), the Defender is still going to be more survivable simply because defense is that strong.
With 35% +def, 20% of incoming damage is coming through. With 30.9% +def, 28.2% of the incoming damage is coming through. The Defender is taking nearly 33% less damage than the Scrapper is. 35% +def for a Defender would require 5087 incoming damage in order to be defeated. 30.9% +def for a Scrapper would require 4747 incoming damage in order to be defeated.
Even so, the issue isn't that the Defender should be more survivable than the Scrapper because s/he deals less damage. The lower damage means nothing compared to the ability to make everyone else on the team an */SR Scrapper. Your views are exclusive to the soloing domain and completely ignore every other attribute. Claiming that it's balanced because an FF/* Defender and an */SR Scrapper would have equal survivability in a solo context completely ignores the fact that the */SR Scrapper would be next to useless compared to an FF/* Defender on a team, especially when you consider that now the FF/* Defender is doing all of his team play at that exact same, if not better level of survivability.
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Yes he is.|
Originally Posted by Umbral_NA
You're completely missing the point of all of this aren't you?
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Originally Posted by Umbral_NA
Did you completely ignore the post I made giving all of the numbers that you tried to give out,...
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My recommendation at this point is to stop trying.
Edit : I'm thinking of a four word sentence. The first word begins with "Don't". Let the clever among you think of the next three words.
Umbral:
I didn't miss the point, and I didn't ignore your post. I simply didn't comment on it, because we were saying essentially the same thing. Both the Defender and the Scrapper can soft cap their Defense if they use pools. That's why I didn't mention them.
If you go back and look, you'll see that I agreed that there may be an issue with the endurance/toggle issue.
I have no idea what numbers you want. I quoted the numbers directly from Mids. There's not a lot of room for interpretation.
I don't see how Defenders at the Defense soft cap will be harder to kill than Scrappers at the soft cap. If they have comparable defense, they're going to take comparable damage. If the Scrapper has more health, he'll survive longer. This isn't a random assumption, it's just logical. Of course, because he has more damage, the Scrapper is going to take LESS damage.
Lower damage means a great deal. If it takes me longer to defeat a foe, that foe is going to be doing more damage to me before he falls. That's why Tankers have higher defenses and Blasters have lower defenses. Because they defeat foes quickly, Blasters take less damage. Because they defeat foes more slowly, Tankers take more damage.
Moreover, lower damage presently means less return for expended endurance. Thus, becaus they do less damage, Defenders are taking more time, suffering more damage, and using more endurance than other classes.
To say that it doesn't matter because they help teams is, to me, irrelevant.
Tankers bring a significant amount to teams, but still solo well. Blasters bring a significant amount to teams, but still solo well. Controllers arguably bring MORE to teams than Defenders, but still solo well. Scrappers don't bring as much as others, but they solo well, and what they bring to teams isn't irrelevant (damage/boss defeats). Defenders bring significant benefits to the team, but they're not to be able to solo comparably? It makes no sense.
Say what you like, Defenders DO solo. No one has said they should solo AS WELL as Scrappers, only that they should solo better than they do.
Arondell:
Evidently, if I have an opinion that differs from yours, I'm a troll.
/rolleyes
Some people just can't have a civil discussion, it seems.
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I'm going to leave this statement right here where you can look at it.
| To say that it doesn't matter because they help teams is, to me, irrelevant. |
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I don't need to, I know what I said.|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
I'm going to leave this statement right here where you can look at it.
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They do help teams, but so does everyone else. There's no reason that they should be disadvantaged when not on teams when no one else is.
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Scrappers can eat alphas, position spawns, and contribute decent damage to a team (some can do other things as well).|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
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While that particular statement stood out to me as well, the average defender might not be much better than the average scrapper on a team.
I remember reading once, all ATs are support ATs. Defenders do not deserve to be at such a low damage mod. I must admit that I do not comprehend why some people find them hard to keep alive, I think their survivability is OK as is, although a small increase wouldn't be a big deal either (nothing like bubbling yourself, though).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Just so I can be clear:|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I don't need to, I know what I said.
They do help teams, but so does everyone else. There's no reason that they should be disadvantaged when not on teams when no one else is. |
1) What does a scrapper do to help a team, that they don't do solo
2) What disadvantage is a FF under solo compared to a on a team
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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1) Nothing. That's the point. What a Scrapper does for a team is also useful solo. What a Defender (well, FF in this case) does for the team isn't useful solo.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Just so I can be clear:
1) What does a scrapper do to help a team, that they don't do solo 2) What disadvantage is a FF under solo compared to a on a team |
2) The disadvantage is that they have less health, less defense, less damage and less effective endurance. These disadvantages aren't negated on a team, it's just that they're unnoticed because the team does everything for me. I don't have to have high defense, there's a Tanker for that. I don't have to do damage, there's a Blaster for that. I don't have to worry about endurance, because I don't have to do much of anything until it's time to bubble them again.
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1) Scrappers can take and manage aggro. While they obviously do this solo, it becomes a bigger advantage teamed because it removes (or at least lessens) "The Fear".|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Just so I can be clear:
1) What does a scrapper do to help a team, that they don't do solo 2) What disadvantage is a FF under solo compared to a on a team |
2) FF defenders solo do not have a teammate to deal damage for them. FF defenders solo do not have someone else to take aggro (although FF defenders are actually quite adept at dealing with aggro control themselves and for teams, IME).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
My comments on this, in order:
- HOLY THREAD NECROMANCY Batman!
- If anyone wants to go back and reformat the original consolidated list, repost it, and then update it with everything that has been added, weeding out what is already in there (which is a lot) then here's the link to the latest post. Feel free to copy, modify, and paste it. I don't play FFers ever since I "killed off" my namesake, so I'll leave it to a "new generation" to champion FF.
- I hereby label Ultimo as the official Defender Forum Troll™, congratulations!
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1) FF defenders can take aggro incredibly well, especially when you are talking about absorbing a non-psi alpha. (Via PFF, or even better via provoke then PFF)|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
1) Scrappers can take and manage aggro. While they obviously do this solo, it becomes a bigger advantage teamed because it removes (or at least lessens) "The Fear".
2) FF defenders solo do not have a teammate to deal damage for them. FF defenders solo do not have someone else to take aggro (although FF defenders are actually quite adept at dealing with aggro control themselves and for teams, IME). |
2) That is true of anyone who could be teamed with a damage dealer. Two blasters work better than one for example. What specific disadvantage does a FF defender have when solo, that is not true when teamed.
lest examine what ultimo said:
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| There's no reason that they should be disadvantaged when not on teams when no one else is. |
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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They cannot maintain aggro while causing spawn collapse as well as most scrappers. I have indeed admitted that FF defenders are decent aggro monkeys though, so we do not need to discuss that. You asked what scrappers do on teams they do not do solo, I answered. |
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
1) FF defenders can take aggro incredibly well, especially when you are talking about absorbing a non-psi alpha. (Via PFF, or even better via provoke then PFF)
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It is not (recently) being argued by anyone that FF defenders have issues protecting teams. The discussion is that they may provide low output in other areas, usually damage output (for themselves and their team, although, IME, blasters tend to do a lot more damage when they are bubbled, but then again, a tanker provides the same function and yet has a 23% higher base damage mod while being a bit tougher to kill than the standard FF defender).
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
2) That is true of anyone who could be teamed with a damage dealer. Two blasters work better than one for example. What specific disadvantage does a FF defender have when solo, that is not true when teamed.
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Is it too low? I don't know, I like teams, even duos, so I can always hire a blaster to kill for me. But it certainly is among the lowest damage you can get in the game on small teams or solo.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
If I start talking about the 'some powersets are good at some things, and not as good at other things' tip again, people are just going to ignore it, right?
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pretty much I think Talen
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
*** You are Ignoring this comment ***
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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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There isn't much to talk about when you are basically just saying, "Different things are different." How profound. |
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
If I start talking about the 'some powersets are good at some things, and not as good at other things' tip again, people are just going to ignore it, right?
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Especially when I believe the whole premise of the discussion centers on, "different things are too different." Some think they should be less different, others think they should be more different, and sill others think they should stay at the same difference. Also profound.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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The blindingly obvious, when presented to people who have not yet understood it, is profound.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
There isn't much to talk about when you are basically just saying, "Different things are different." How profound.
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Forcefield is a set that lies on one extreme end of the 'survivability' and 'team focus' scales.
They would just have to turn the power into a PBAoE like Accelerate Metabolism and be done with it....
<All the other stuff Biospark said>
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