Make Your FF Change Suggestions Here!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Damage is fundamentally mitigated before it happens through methods designed to prevent it from being applied to a character, after it happens through HP regeneration, or during it's application through damage reduction.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said previous, I don't agree or disagree with Philotic, but I think I see where he's coming from, and where you have a difference in terminology.

You are defining "proactive" as "before the attack". That is, all FF powers are proactive because they prevent the attack from hitting the ally the foe intends to hit. The attack is either deflected, or the foe is prevented from firing. Thus, the damage mitigation is "proactive", it occurs before the attack itself hits.

However, Philotic is not using the term in that fashion. In fact, it really isn't proper to use the term that strictly because we are talking about "proactive" in regards to Vigilance. Vigilance is a power that provides Endurance to the Defender AFTER HIS ALLIES HAVE TAKEN DAMAGE. Therefore one could define "proactive" as taking action not before an attack hits, but before the ally has taken damage. "Reactive" would be an action taken after the ally has taken damage.

In other words, you are entering a grey area here where your allies have already been hit, and you are now taking reactive action to prevent FURTHER damage. Your action is not proactive because you didn't take it prior to the start of combat, as you would in applying bubbles. Instead, you take action during combat, just as the reactive Defender would take action to recover the damage taken not after the combat is over, but while the combat is still going on.

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore FF is proactive. It can only prevent damage from happening. There is NO argument that can state FF removes damage after it takes place (which is the realm of a reactive defense set).

[/ QUOTE ]

In this I have to agree with you. FF can only prevent damage from happening, it cannot remove it. Unless you get Aid Other from the Medicine Pool, which in my opinion goes outside the concept of Force Field, your allies must rest in order to recover any damage they have taken.

To use the terminology above, a reactive set can take proactive action before the combat begins, take both reactive and proactive action during the combat to remove damage and prevent more, and take reactive action after the combat to remove the remainder of the damage. Force Field can only take proactive action before the fight, and proactive and reactive action during the fight. Once the fight's over, the FF cannot help any further.

Then again, Dark's post combat capabilities are limited as well, so that's not unique.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, now things are just getting too complicated. I never meant to cause such a conflagration of terms.

I used the words "proactive" and "reactive" in a very general sense. Proactive sets, in general, protect the team so they take less damage, either thru defense or resistance buffs, or foe debuffs. You are using your powers to protect the team from harm, meaning, BEFORE they take damage.

Reactive sets, in general, restore health and/or endurance and remove status effects AFTER the damage has been taken or the effects are applied. If no damage is taken, then there is nothing for such sets to do.

Now even within sets that are generally considered proactive or reactive there are powers that are of the other, and vice versa. For example, applying Clear Mind to a teammate before a battle with mez-heavy critters (such as Tsoo) would be a proactive use of the power. You are applying the protection to prevent status effects. If you were to wait until a teammate was already mezzed and then cast Clear Mind to break the mez effect, this would be a reactive use of the power -- you used the power after your teammate was already affected.

Here is a real world example.

Proactively taking care of your teeth means you diligently brush and floss, get regular cleanings and fluoride treatments, all in an effort to prevent damage and decay.

Reactively taking care of your teeth means you don't brush or floss much, and your only visits to the dentist are when you're in pain. The dentist then does his best to fix the cause of your pain, whether it be by putting in or replacing a filling, doing a root canal, extraction, etc. These are reactive efforts because the damage has already been done, and the dentist is doing whatever he can to fix it.

Now for most people taking care of their teeth is somewhere in the middle, a little bit of proaction and a little bit of reaction. So there is always a grey area.

But again, I use the terms in the most general of fashions. FF prevents the team from taking damage or being affected by most status effects. This is proactive damage mitigation -- you prevent damage from being taken. If you think about it nearly every tank, scrapper, brute, and stalker protection sets are all proactive in that they prevent the character from taking damage. The only reactive set is Regeneration. Regens can't prevent themselves from taking damage as they have no significant defense or resistances, they can only heal themselves after they have been hurt. Their powers are reactive -- they are used after damage is taken.

So in the most basic way I can say it:

Proactive = preventing the team from taking damage.
Reactive = restoring health after damage has been taken.

Most Defender sets have a little of each. FF and Trick Arrow are the only sets that are entirely proactive. Sonic is close, except for Clarity, which can be used both reactively (after a teammate has been mezzed) or proactively (applied before being mezzed to prevent it), and Storm, which has O2 Boost. Radiation, Kinetics, and Dark are mixed, each having a few proactive and reactive powers. Empathy is the most reactive set, but even so it still has a few proactive powers in it.

And the whole reason for this diatribe is Vigilance. It's designed to give you a greater endurance discount as the team's health drops. Now it's pretty easy to see that "proactive" sets, that is, sets that prevent the team from taking damage, are not going to get as much from Vigilance as sets that are "reactive", that is, do nothing to prevent damage from being taken, but instead heals the team after they've been hurt.

And this was my point in regard to Vigilance. That it is not balanced across all Defenders -- some sets will benefit significantly from Vigilance (especially if they are trying to get the most out of it) and some sets, by their nature, will see very little benefit from Vigilance. In many ways it rewards you for being a bad Defender. A Defender's job is to protect the team, whether it be proactivly or reactively. If you're a really good Defender chances are your team is going to stay healthy most of the time. If you're a bad Defender, then the team isn't going to stay so healthy, and you get rewarded for your incompetence by getting a huge endurance discount. Defiance 1.0 proved that basing an inherent buff on health is a bad idea. Well that's exactly what Vigilance does too. And there is no indication it's going to be revamped any time soon.

Y'know, maybe a better way to put it is "proactive mitigation" and "reactive mitigation". Because even when an FFer is playing reactively by using Force Bolt or Repulsion Bomb when things start to get a little hairy, they are both powers that mitigate damage proactively, meaning they frak up your foes so they can't attack.

Now a Dark or Kin in the same situation, playing reactively, has the option of using either a proactive mitigation power or a reactive mitigation power. They can choose to heal the team (reactive mitigation), debuff/mez the foes so they do less damage (proactive mitigation), or a little of both.

The use of the terms is in reference to the way the powers mitigate damage and is not meant to infer anything about how players use the powers.

[ QUOTE ]
...maybe a better way to put it is "proactive mitigation" and "reactive mitigation". Because even when an FFer is playing reactively by using Force Bolt or Repulsion Bomb when things start to get a little hairy, they are both powers that mitigate damage proactively, meaning they frak up your foes so they can't attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say that FF responds to damage taken by a teammate by proactively protecting them from further damage through the use of the other 6 powers in their primary powerset.

The one power in the FF set that I consider to be both proactive and reactive is Dispersion Bubble. The Mez protection can be applied reactively to others simply by moving the AoE into range of the affected person.

- B.

[ QUOTE ]
And this was my point in regard to Vigilance. That it is not balanced across all Defenders -- some sets will benefit significantly from Vigilance (especially if they are trying to get the most out of it) and some sets, by their nature, will see very little benefit from Vigilance. ...Defiance 1.0 proved that basing an inherent buff on health is a bad idea. Well that's exactly what Vigilance does too. And there is no indication it's going to be revamped any time soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am in agreement with this viewpoint. Vigilance, as designed, does not benefit all defenders equally. Proactive sets like FF function in such a way that they negate Vigilance from activating.

With my FF character I have become accustomed to the fact that for all practical purposes I have a disfunctional inherent power. Teams I particpate on simply do not get damaged with the regularity that makes Vigilance anything more than another "snowball temp power." It looks good in concept but it doesn't hold up well when put to practical use.

- B.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And this was my point in regard to Vigilance. That it is not balanced across all Defenders -- some sets will benefit significantly from Vigilance (especially if they are trying to get the most out of it) and some sets, by their nature, will see very little benefit from Vigilance. ...Defiance 1.0 proved that basing an inherent buff on health is a bad idea. Well that's exactly what Vigilance does too. And there is no indication it's going to be revamped any time soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am in agreement with this viewpoint. Vigilance, as designed, does not benefit all defenders equally. Proactive sets like FF function in such a way that they negate Vigilance from activating.

With my FF character I have become accustomed to the fact that for all practical purposes I have a disfunctional inherent power. Teams I particpate on simply do not get damaged with the regularity that makes Vigilance anything more than another "snowball temp power." It looks good in concept but it doesn't hold up well when put to practical use.

- B.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's interesting, because at one point I respecced all my Defenders out of the Fitness pool thinking that it wasn't necessary due to Vigilance. Well that was a rude surprise. My Dark, Storm, and FFer had to have Fitness respecced back in because there simply was not enough of a buff from Vigilance to keep them from running out of endurance.

My Empath and Trick Arrow are the only two that I was able to keep out of the Fitness pool and have no problems with, even though they both run Assault and Tactics full-time while teaming. I definitely notice the benefit of Vigilance on my Empath as she sometimes runs low on endurance if the team isn't taking much damage and she's doing more blasting than healing. Not sure I see much of it on my Trick Arrow. I think TA is very endurance friendly to begin with, and there are no toggles whatsoever in the set. I do notice that while soloing I really can't run the Leadership toggles without running out of end (which is fine cause I really don't need them while soloing), so I'm probably getting at least enough out of Vigilance while teaming to cover the cost of those 2 toggles.

Thread Rez!

[ QUOTE ]

Force Bolt - Add a low percentage chance (10-20%) to disorient knockback resistant mobs. If Force Bolt can't knock back an AV, at least getting hit in the FACE with a Force Bolt, should have a CHANCE to stun them for a few seconds. It makes us more viable as an asset against AVs, a common FF gripe.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have an issue with force bolt, and it really comes into play when it's balanced against a secondary. Force Bolt is more of a control power than a defense power. While controlling can be used as defense, it's not the main functionality of the set. I have a problem with it coming in on tier 3, and IMO should be moved to at least tier 4, though I think tier 5 would be more appropriate. IMO Force Bolt > Detention Field

I also think there shouldn't be more than a 20 level spread between a power in the primary which offers control and a power in the secondary which also offers control like most blast sets have.

I know I'm in the extreme minority, here, but I like Repulsion Bomb now that it's targeted AoE knockdown. The animation is a bit long, but I use it as an opener in every battle, especially after a tank has just charged in. As I'm FF/Rad, it gives me a chance to jump in and use Irradiation fairly safely.

[ QUOTE ]
I know I'm in the extreme minority, here,

[/ QUOTE ]

No you're not, where would you get that idea from??

The current iteration of repulsion bomb is one of the go-to powers in the set. Good damage and knockdown makes me a happy defender.

Changes to forcefield? This is a long thread, and I am not gonna read it all. My only change would be to make it possible to cancel detention field. I'd use it (who am I kidding, I'd pick it for my team build) if it wasn't a guaranteed team slowdown 99% of the time. Soloing it's decent. Teaming it's a big "[censored] you, bubbler! " every time. Even as a bubbler myself, when I play other characters, I hate it when people use powers that make the mobs untouchable. I'd love it if it could be dropped at will. Make it an expensive toggle. Change the fundamental mechanics of the game so we can cancel click buffs and debuffs (yeah, right ).

Force Bubble should be able to take Knockback IO's and set IO's in general.

[ QUOTE ]
My only change would be to make it possible to cancel detention field. I'd use it (who am I kidding, I'd pick it for my team build) if it wasn't a guaranteed team slowdown 99% of the time. Soloing it's decent. Teaming it's a big "[censored] you, bubbler! " every time. Even as a bubbler myself, when I play other characters, I hate it when people use powers that make the mobs untouchable. I'd love it if it could be dropped at will. Make it an expensive toggle. Change the fundamental mechanics of the game so we can cancel click buffs and debuffs (yeah, right ).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, there's another option for which the tech already exists in Phase Shift. A timed toggle, where after the current duration passes, it automatically detoggles, *or* you can detoggle it early yourself.

The base functionality of the power would stay the same, you'd just be able to switch it off early and not have your scrapper wasting half an end bar (I have enough trouble remembering to rebubble when two-boxing with my fire scrapper and Ice/FFer)

... Actually, I'd like to see this in Dark's phasing too. And Gravity's... Nyaha. Ohhh Caaastle...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My only change would be to make it possible to cancel detention field. I'd use it (who am I kidding, I'd pick it for my team build) if it wasn't a guaranteed team slowdown 99% of the time. Soloing it's decent. Teaming it's a big "[censored] you, bubbler! " every time. Even as a bubbler myself, when I play other characters, I hate it when people use powers that make the mobs untouchable. I'd love it if it could be dropped at will. Make it an expensive toggle. Change the fundamental mechanics of the game so we can cancel click buffs and debuffs (yeah, right ).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, there's another option for which the tech already exists in Phase Shift. A timed toggle, where after the current duration passes, it automatically detoggles, *or* you can detoggle it early yourself.

The base functionality of the power would stay the same, you'd just be able to switch it off early and not have your scrapper wasting half an end bar (I have enough trouble remembering to rebubble when two-boxing with my fire scrapper and Ice/FFer)

... Actually, I'd like to see this in Dark's phasing too. And Gravity's... Nyaha. Ohhh Caaastle...

[/ QUOTE ]

This has been suggested many times by many, many posters in the past, myself included. Seems like a no-brainer to fix these god awful powers, but I'm guessing it's pretty low on the priority list right now.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My only change would be to make it possible to cancel detention field. I'd use it (who am I kidding, I'd pick it for my team build) if it wasn't a guaranteed team slowdown 99% of the time. Soloing it's decent. Teaming it's a big "[censored] you, bubbler! " every time. Even as a bubbler myself, when I play other characters, I hate it when people use powers that make the mobs untouchable. I'd love it if it could be dropped at will. Make it an expensive toggle. Change the fundamental mechanics of the game so we can cancel click buffs and debuffs (yeah, right ).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, there's another option for which the tech already exists in Phase Shift. A timed toggle, where after the current duration passes, it automatically detoggles, *or* you can detoggle it early yourself.

The base functionality of the power would stay the same, you'd just be able to switch it off early and not have your scrapper wasting half an end bar (I have enough trouble remembering to rebubble when two-boxing with my fire scrapper and Ice/FFer)

... Actually, I'd like to see this in Dark's phasing too. And Gravity's... Nyaha. Ohhh Caaastle...

[/ QUOTE ]

This has been suggested many times by many, many posters in the past, myself included. Seems like a no-brainer to fix these god awful powers, but I'm guessing it's pretty low on the priority list right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stupid modem >_> Now then!

I kinda figured this was a long-time suggestion. The sad part is I actually tend to forget these phasing powers even exist, which is why it never occured to me before.

When I'm building a Dark/ or Grav/ character, they're the one thing I just immediately take for granted as something I can skip and not regret, especially on a tight build.

Not to say that they're useless, but they're just so situational to my playstyle that I literally don't even think about them anymore.

QR:

Force Bolt: Add a significant, but not self stacking, -Resistance debuff. This will help the soloing FFer and will allow FF to aid the teams offense against Bosses and AVs.

Repulsion Bomb: Decrease the casting time slightly.

Repulsion Field: Change this power into a ranged Drop like Tar Patch or Freezing Rain. Remove the per target end cost. Let it do some ticks of Energy Damage that will not benefit from Containment in the Controller version. Essentially, make this power into Bonfire but with Energy Damage. This will allow the Force Fielder to create AoE knockback that is not exclusively away from the caster.

The rest of the set is fine as is.

Sure, I'll bite.

Personal Force Field - The only thing about it I don't like is that you can't rest with it on. Perhaps this is a balance thing, but it doesn't strike me as very entertaining to get beaten down to red, PFF and leave the game for 10 minutes while you heal (because Rest hasn't recharged yet - a very common problem for Defenders). Other than this, It's fine as is.

Deflection/Insulation Shield - These are the core shield powers in the set, and like similar powers in other sets, the Defender can't use them on himself. To me, this is both unrealistic and horribly limiting, as it renders us the least defended character on any team, and practically defenseless solo. My solution is to make them useful to the solo Defender. This may sound unbalanced, but I don't see it as such. If it's not unbalanced for the Defender to add 40% Defense to a teammate, why is it unbalanced for him to add it to himself (especially when you consider that the teammate ALREADY has personal Defenses)? I'd be willing to allow for a slight reduction in power to accomodate this.

Force Bolt - It's a decent power as is, my only real complaint is that it does no damage to speak of. I'd like to see it do some damage (I'm reminded of fighting Force Magi who cast a Force Bolt that does sizable damage).

Detention Field - These powers tend to be more of an annoyance than anything. Making the enemy in the DF untargetable would be a big help. A more obvious bubble would also help.

Dispersion Bubble - This is fine as is, however, if the adjustments to DS/IS I suggested above are not to be used, then perhaps increasing the Defense of the DB while reducing the Defense of the DS/IS to compensate might be allowed. The total Defense for teammates would be the same, and it would make the solo Defender more survivable.

Repulsion Field - I've only noted two issues with this power. First, it is rather endurance heavy. Second it is of limited value. Foes frequently push in and one-shot me despite the field. Hover provides better protection for less endurance. I'm not entirely sure what I'd do with it, though.

Repulsion Bomb - This is the only credible attack in the set, and it only does as much damage as Power Bolts, a tier 1 attack. The damage should be increased, I would say double should be sufficient. The animation is a trifle long. Other than that it's fine as is.

Force Bubble - I haven't reached this yet, nor have I ever seen it used, so I can't comment on it.

Hey, this thread is back. Well, why not? I'll add a little.

Personal Forcefield: It's nice, very safe, no real change needed.

Force Bolt: Also nice. It could be interesting if the knockback was unresistable or just really powerful. So you can tell an AV to sit down, now.

Deflection and Insulation Shield: Don't change them, they're good.

Dispersion Bubble: Can't think of anything to add to this.

Detention Field: New animation! Soul Storm's hovering twirl, encased in a forcefield bubble. If you miss THAT, you're not paying attention.

Repulsion Field: Sort of useless. Before ragdolls you could use it to bounce a single target into the air indefinitely, but the severe end cost and single focus on knockback makes it skippable. A chance to stun could be interesting, or giving the enemies an Air Superiority style spin before ragdolling. Adding -fly could be an odd, but interesting addition. But as the power is now, Force Bolt covers most situations where it could be useful.

Repulsion Bomb: It's as powerful as a ranged AoE and has a chance to stun? Keep.

Force Bubble: Personally, I'd want it smaller, but as a placable pseudo-pet. It might violate the cottage rule, but the ability to make a zone where anything hostile is catapulted out, without having to be in the zone could have a vast number of uses. For instance, if we need to run, I could throw one in a tight hallway and the enemies would more or less be unable to follow. Maybe give it a short duration -stealth, since bumping into a wall of force should give some noise.

But the main problem with Forcefields isn't so much that it's broken. It's not. It's very good at what it does. It's just that what it does isn't as needed by teams at large, even if bubbles are always welcome.

Ultimo, it is very, very easy for force-field defenders to give out 40% defence. 45% defence is the soft-cap. 5% from all positions is also not hard to obtain at all.

I have an empathy defender who has 43% ranged defence. What you are proposing has a fairly transparent effect on the defender.

Heroes, Villains ♦ Reviews ♦ Retrospect