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This whole argument about whether Defenders need more damage being broken down into semantics is mind boggling to say the least.
There is no doubt that the amount of damage defenders do, especially at lvl 50, is painful to deal with to say the least. That said, it is very hard to determine how much damage is enough.
Should an empathy defender be able to 1 shot an even con minion with a basic tier 2 attack? Probably not. (I chose empathy for the lack of self damage buff and lack of enemy debuff).
Should they be able to solo at the same clip as a blaster? I honestly cannot decide, but lean towards no. The reason being that if the kill potential is as great for both ATs, why ever team with a blaster? I can instead pick up a defender for de/buffs and damage.
Also as has been brought up, soloing is a very different affair depending on primary. Soloing on rads, kins, darks, TAs, and even storms isn't undoable. However, emps, FFs and sonics all have nightmarish times. This is almost entirely based on whether the primary power pool is buffs or debuffs. What always interested me about the concept of being able to solo as a defender, the two "strongest" blaster primaries are not available to defenders. I often wished I could go around causing havoc with a Kin/Fire or Rad/Ice defender, but these options aren't even available. This makes me think that it was always designed to keep defenders from becoming too offensively potent.
As how to fix this, it has to be a vigilance chance. Frankly if it added both endurance and damage in a manner of some team defiance, that would be one option. But then again, it doesn't reward a well built team where no one is at risk of dying. I would prefer a sort of power build up defiance, where every attack gives a slight boost to secondary effects other than damage. Or, as has been mentioned, the opposite. Buff/debuff/heal powers cause a boost to damage, as if you were feeding off the powers you were giving to others.
I think some sort of change like that would greatly help the oft neglected secondary power pools of defenders. Yet, I do resist complaining too much, as I rarely have issues finding teams that wouldn't love to have a defender along.
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I've addressed a lot of your points, and I share much of your sentiments.
No, I don't think a Defender should solo as easily as a Blaster. They never could; they never should. I also don't think they should solo as well as a Corruptor -- again, with Corrs having blasting sets as a primary, buff sets as secondaries.
*BUT* that doesn't mean that Defenders have to be at the bottom of the list. They should be *slightly* less effective at soloing than a Corruptor, just the way a Corruptor is *slightly* less effective as a buffer/debuffer than a Defender is.
And Defenders should solo at least as well, if not slightly better, than Controllers, considering Defenders do get a Blast set. The fact that a Controllers' Control set does vastly more damage than a Defender's Blast set due to Containment means there is a problem.
I dunno. Maybe the devs just opened up a huge can of worms with AT inherents and Defenders got shafted because they are 1 of 2 out of 11 ATs that didn't get a damage buff. So it now becomes a balancing issue -- do they stick to the tried and true AT modifiers (which, btw, have been altered in the past, namely for tankers when it was shown their damage output was too low) and ignore the inherents, treating them as just a class-specific bonus? Or do you factor them in to the balance equation, even if it means having to adjust the AT modifiers in a way that doesn't look right on paper, but performs right in the game?
Y'know, I just don't know. I'm not a dev, I don't have all the answers (hell, I don't even have most of the answers). But I *do* play the game, a lot, and have been doing so for 3 1/2 years. And I've played every single AT the game has to offer, and have enough alts that cover nearly every power set in the game.
And while it's only my opinion based upon my own experiences over the past 3.5 years, but I can say without a doubt or any lack of certainty that Defenders right now are gravely underpowered in the Blast department. The .65 AT modifier just ain't cutting it anymore.
And I don't know how else to say it. If the devs think that Defenders are exceptionally well-balanced, it's very clear they haven't played enough of them solo. No one in their right mind would ever try to say that Defenders are capable soloists, at least no one that has played them. And just because they *can* solo on heroic is simply not enough. If the pace is so slow and laborious that it feels more like a chore instead of a fun game, well then that right there should be your benchmark.
IMO any character should be able to solo on heroic, and it should be a BREEZE, not a chore nor a challenge. Heroic should be the setting for the days you just want to plow thru things mindlessly without having to strategize, or stock up on inspirations, or worry about needing teammates to help with the final boss (or lt). But you simply cannot do that with most Defenders, not even on heroic.
I've said it before, I'm not really in favor of changing their inherent from an endurance discount power into a damage buff. It's not what Defenders are supposed to be the best at. But they do get a Blast set for a reason. And Blast sets should do more damage than Control sets.
Get Vigilance working right so it's usable by all Defenders, both solo and in teams, regardless of sets (basing Defiance off of health was never a good idea; it's no better an idea on Vigilance). This will alleviate much of the endurance issue they face due to such low damage attacks. Then raise their AT damage modifier to just a hair under a Corruptor's.
Defenders and Corrupters are not really all that different in principle. One should get slightly more damage, the other slightly better buffs. But right now one gets a lot more damage, while the other still only gets slighty better buffs.
You could make a similar comparison to Brutes and Tanks, as they are structured much the same way. Brutes inherently do more damage than Tanks, but get slightly less protection. And Brute Fury allows them to do a LOT more damage than a tank, but they have to work for it. And that's fine. Cause Tanks have excellent protections that make them extremely valuable on a team, but they also do more than enough damage to solo efficiently despite having an inherent that doesn't buff their damage (some have endurance issues pre-stamina, but so do a lot of Scrappers and Brutes). So we know having a damage buff inherent is not a necessity to be able to solo. And when the devs realized tank damage output was sub-par (after many months and a few thousand forum posts) they adjusted the AT damage modifier for tanks so they did more damage across the board, and didn't have to mess around with their inherent.
I'm just seeking the same kind of balance for Defenders. If the current modifiers are .75 for Corruptors and .65 for Defenders, raising it to .7 or even .725 still keeps them below Corruptors but increases Defender base damage by 11.5%. And even though the modifiers would be very close, Corruptors are still going to do a lot more damage due to Scourge. Get Vigilance working right so even a solo Defender can get a useful benefit from it (base it upon the # of foes near the Defender, not theirs or their teammates health), and the combination of slightly more damage and better endurance management should make Defenders much more capable soloists without having any kind of significant impact while teaming. An 11.5% damage buff + better endurance management is in no way going to make a Defender uber. But the combination will surely make them better balanced and allow much more variety in how they can be played.
The discussion about Vigilance and general changes to the Defender AT really belongs in a thread of its own. Much as Force-Field Masterminds and Controllers and their issues.
Could we try to discuss Force-Field Defenders here?
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The discussion about Vigilance and general changes to the Defender AT really belongs in a thread of its own. Much as Force-Field Masterminds and Controllers and their issues.
Could we try to discuss Force-Field Defenders here?
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Eh, I'm considering asking the mods to remove the sticky, I think the thread has fulfilled it's purpose, and I can almost guarantee that Castle already knows all of the ideas that we've suggested. He might even have it written down somewhere. I think I'm going to ask to have the sticky removed.
Anyone have any objections to this?
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This whole argument about whether Defenders need more damage being broken down into semantics is mind boggling to say the least.
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...Yeah. I agree that Defenders could use a bit more damage, but expecting them to solo as well as *anything* else, even post-GDN Controllers, is something I don't agree with. (Previously, I'd have said that Controllers should have been worse, and sometimes they were.)
I think Vigilance should give you endurance reduction (and maybe even a small +Damage) when your team is at HIGH health. That would be both functional and logical, unlike the current (what am I going to do on my FF, "Bubble Faster?" Or is Force Bubble supposed to have prohibitive endurance use?). Still, as it currently, is, I consider that Negligence probably wasn't intended to be useful, and is therefore doing its job nicely.
(Now I'm just trying to figure out how Storm/Elec is having trouble with bosses. Shouldn't the whole "knocked down in a corner with no accuracy or endurance" thing help with that? I'm no fan of Elec for Defenders, but other than being slightly slower than other sets it's not THAT weak.)
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The question is, where do you feel they should land? Prior to all the global nerfs, defenders had roughly 2/3 the damage of a blaster (the idea being that the superior buff/debuff options made up the slack).
After the global nerfs, the introduction of inherents, etc, up through now, Defenders now do roughly 1/3 as much damage as Blasters (including their bonus damage for Defiance as part of their damage). Corrupters, OTOH do roughly 3/4 the damage of Blasters, with only a small penalty on their buff/debuff powers compared to Defenders.
I do find it odd that you feel Controllers should be better soloists than Defenders, however. Consider that up until Containment they were literally the worst soloists, either until 32 and their pet or up the entire scale (after the pet nerf but before containment).
Personally, I think simply increasing our base damage up to where we'd be on par with our position relative to blasters from back when and we'd be fine. We'd do only a bit less damage than Corrupters, but then Corrupter buffs/debuffs are only a bit less powerful than ours in the first place.
Vigilance could probably use some kind of change, as having an inherent based both on player HP (like Defiance was changed from) and on how poorly you are doing your job (weak/dead party members are not a sign of a great Defender) seems a bit crazy to begin with. Maybe some kind of benefit to buffs/debuffs based on how many (of your powerset) have been applied to the target, or maybe a containment-like effect on targets that are under the effects of a debuff from your powerset?
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This whole argument about whether Defenders need more damage being broken down into semantics is mind boggling to say the least.
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...Yeah. I agree that Defenders could use a bit more damage, but expecting them to solo as well as *anything* else, even post-GDN Controllers, is something I don't agree with.
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Why? As it has been repeatedly stated, Controllers were the original team-support AT, not Defenders. Containment threw that out of whack because of all the whiners who knew they were choosing a support AT but didn't like not being able to do damage. If Defenders whine enough, can we get pie too?
Quit honestly, I have absolutely no clue as to how some people form their opinions. Your opinion isn't based on anything even remotely approaching logic or rationality, nor is it based on what was the original design of the ATs. So please, explain why you disagree with Defenders soloing as well as Controllers.
I suspect it has to do with "I play Controllers, and I don't think you Defenders should be as good as we are." If that is the case, bend over and shove that argument where the sun don't shine.
When threads start containing posts with the words "bend over", they've jumped the shark.
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This whole argument about whether Defenders need more damage being broken down into semantics is mind boggling to say the least.
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...Yeah. I agree that Defenders could use a bit more damage, but expecting them to solo as well as *anything* else, even post-GDN Controllers, is something I don't agree with. (Previously, I'd have said that Controllers should have been worse, and sometimes they were.)
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Why?
On what do you base your assertion that Defenders should have the most difficulty soloing of any Archetype? (Or any hero Archetype, at least, I don't think you're comparing to villains)
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That conclusion doesn't logically follow from the first two statements. It can be inferred but not logically deduced. "Little use" is not the same as "no use". That is why I didn't chose it to complete the logic.
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*I* didn't make the logical statement. *YOU* did. *I* phrased my statement within a paragraph giving the statement context. I made a statement that did not have to be limited to deductive and not inductive logic. It was *YOU* who chose to express the statement in such a way in order to dismiss my arguments.
Even if I were convinced of your sincerity in wanting to understand me, which I am not, you reworded the argument into such a way that you could totally invalidate my statement without even considering its meaning. Which, as I said previously, is utter nonsense.
At this point, this argument is about nothing but technicalities and terminology. Which is a waste of time, effort and bandwidth.
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When threads start containing posts with the words "bend over", they've jumped the shark.
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it's invoking hitler.
http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/ffi/ffi3.htm
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This whole argument about whether Defenders need more damage being broken down into semantics is mind boggling to say the least.
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...Yeah. I agree that Defenders could use a bit more damage, but expecting them to solo as well as *anything* else, even post-GDN Controllers, is something I don't agree with. (Previously, I'd have said that Controllers should have been worse, and sometimes they were.)
I think Vigilance should give you endurance reduction (and maybe even a small +Damage) when your team is at HIGH health. That would be both functional and logical, unlike the current (what am I going to do on my FF, "Bubble Faster?" Or is Force Bubble supposed to have prohibitive endurance use?). Still, as it currently, is, I consider that Negligence probably wasn't intended to be useful, and is therefore doing its job nicely.
(Now I'm just trying to figure out how Storm/Elec is having trouble with bosses. Shouldn't the whole "knocked down in a corner with no accuracy or endurance" thing help with that? I'm no fan of Elec for Defenders, but other than being slightly slower than other sets it's not THAT weak.)
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It comes down to not enough damage, not enough endurance, and a horrible attack chain. If I use the debuffs, I run out of endurance before they're dead. If I skip the debuffs, it's a race to see who can kill who first (sometimes I win, sometimes they win). Bosses pose a particular threat because I only have 2 single target attacks, 6 second recharge on one, 10 second on the other. The best attack chain I can create is
Lightning Bolt
Charged Bolts
<wait 4 seconds>
Charged Bolts
Lightning Bolt
<wait 2 seconds>
Charged Bolts
<wait 4 seconds>
<repeat>
That's only 5 attacks over 20 seconds. With 3 damage SOs it comes out to 255.6 damage over 20 seconds, or 12.78 dam/sec. With 1 end redux SO, total end cost over 20 seconds is 24.5, or 1.225 end/sec.
If I drop Freezing Rain beforehand it increases damage to 407.4 damage over 22 seconds, or 18.64 dam/sec. End cost per second increases to 1.734.
Beginning to see the problem? Even with FR's debuff I can't do enough damage fast enough. And it's not sustainable. I'd basically do one chain with FR, then another without, repeat.
Since your garden variety lvl 28 boss has between 1000-1200 HPs, it would take me about 2 minutes to defeat him, factoring in his regen.
And there is no way I could mitigate boss damage for 2 minutes, even if I threw in Snow Storm, Steamy Mist, and Hurricane. Yeah I could keep him off his feet most of the time, but I only have 638 HPs and no self heal. And what is that for a boss? 3-5 hits?
I'd be lucky to last 30 seconds.
The only way it can be done is by using massive amounts of inspirations. And I shouldn't have to eat my entire tray just to defeat a single even level boss.
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The only way it can be done is by using massive amounts of inspirations. And I shouldn't have to eat my entire tray just to defeat a single even level boss.
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I think that's the thing that gets me. I can do somewhat better than that, about half the time it works okay. But that half the time I find that I'm completely without any alternative but to go buy a tray of Lucks, I have to say, "What is going on here?"
I expect that for an EB, not an even level Boss.
The thing is, I think that although every other AT can deal with that situation fine, being forced to resort to Inspirations is what the devs WANT. I suspect that's what they mean when they say Defenders are "balanced".
<QR> Alright, sticky successfully removed, please resume with your silly conversations. 
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And there is no way I could mitigate boss damage for 2 minutes, even if I threw in Snow Storm, Steamy Mist, and Hurricane. Yeah I could keep him off his feet most of the time, but I only have 638 HPs and no self heal. And what is that for a boss? 3-5 hits?
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I've been pinning an even con crey power tank (35) using nothing but hurricane and steamy mist for over 5 minutes now, and so far i've regenerated to full health between each of his hits, since they're so far apart. It seems when I use snowstorm he runs away
But yeah, it did take me over a minute to kill him using charged bolts, ball lightning, and sand of mu.
+1 Vortex Cor Leonis Archon. Nope, he can't kill me, even though he got a crit on me before I tagged him with hurricane.
+1 Tank Smasher. Nope, he can't kill me either. He might be able to on the off chance that he could get in range to hit me with handclap (and it not miss).
+1 greater devoured. Nope. Though I did find the swarms entertaining.
If you're using more powers than I am at a lower level and dying where I am constantly at full health, I think your analysis is lacking something.
Either you're embellishing the truth, or you haven't slotted hurricane. That's how it appears, that is.
edit: I'll add that being mezzed completely ruins storm, but that's true for any defender, and not what you're alluding to in your statement.
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<QR> Alright, sticky successfully removed, please resume with your silly conversations.
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Thank you. It was getting hard to restrain the urge to post something snarky.
I'm pulling for FF. Hopefully you guys will get what you want.
I have no problem soloing bosses with my ff/elec, even purple ones. The key isn't damage via an attack chain, its short circuit. Slot SC with end drain and in two applications with a tesla cage or ball lightning spaced between them (to keep the -recovery debuff on the boss) the boss won't be able to fight back because they'll be at 0 end. Combine that with ball lightning and the minions/lewys will be out of end too. And before you ask, "what'ya do between those 1st two short circuits?" Well thats what force bolt is for, by the time the boss gets back up you'll have nuked his end a second time and he won't be able to fight back. If the boss is particularly dangerous, well then I can hit PBU and drain all his end in one go. This trick works amazingly well, but yes, it is slow, but who builds an FF defender to solo anyway? Finally, don't forget the volt pet, cast it before you go in, and you get 10 additional(but random targeted) charged bolts during the fight.
Using this exact trick is what enabled me to kill a cyst crystal solo after the entire team had died/fled (granted I did use one small purple at the beginning of the fight to give me time to drain all the clouds).
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The only way it can be done is by using massive amounts of inspirations. And I shouldn't have to eat my entire tray just to defeat a single even level boss.
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I think that's the thing that gets me. I can do somewhat better than that, about half the time it works okay. But that half the time I find that I'm completely without any alternative but to go buy a tray of Lucks, I have to say, "What is going on here?"
I expect that for an EB, not an even level Boss.
The thing is, I think that although every other AT can deal with that situation fine, being forced to resort to Inspirations is what the devs WANT. I suspect that's what they mean when they say Defenders are "balanced".
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I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now, as they are working on other ATs right now. I'm hoping once they're done with Stalkers and Blasters a good hard look will be given to Defenders.
I was giving Vigilance some more thought. Maybe the whole idea of basing it on some constantly changing value isn't such a good idea. I would say the biggest problem with Vigilance is that it's inconsistent. Sometimes you get a huge buff, and sometimes you get nothing, and you often have no control over it. This makes it very difficult to build a Defender. It's frustrating to be on one team and never run out of end, and the next day be on another team and always running dry. How can you possibly hope to manage your endurance if it's always changing?
So then I thought, well what if Vigilance was just a flat out endurance reduction, like an auto Conserve Power, giving you a 50% reduction of all end costs. And that's it. No fuss, no muss. This way you're always burning endurance at the same rate and don't have to constantly be concerned with whatever conditions are necessary to make the power useful. I mean, health and endurance are really the 2 most important attributes you have. And not being able to effectively manage them can be a real headache.
Not only would this provide a stable buff, but it indirectly could improve Defender damage output without actually having to give them more damage. A 50% end reduction is equivalent to 1.5 SOs. So if you normally slot 1 end reducer in a power, you could replace it with something else and still come out ahead. And if you were able to replace the end reducers in your attacks with recharges, you'd be able to attack more often using less endurance. Faster attacks = higher dps, without any change to the powers or the AT damage modifiers.
And with a constant and consistent buff you can have one solid build that works well with large teams, small teams, and solo.
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The key isn't damage via an attack chain, its short circuit.
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Well, not for nothing, but this is an example of, "A Defender shouldn't rely on his Secondary for something his Primary should give him." If you say things like, "Well, my FF does fine because I use my Electric Blasts to do X", well, anyone who doesn't have Electric Blasts obviously can't do X.
Of course, there is some amount of overlap, one of the strongest features of Radiation Blast is the disorient in Cosmic Burst, and other sets have their status controls, too. I'm not saying that Defenders shouldn't be allowed to use or rely on such powers, it's just a slippery slope when you start trying to judge a Primary based on synergy with a Secondary.
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And there is no way I could mitigate boss damage for 2 minutes, even if I threw in Snow Storm, Steamy Mist, and Hurricane. Yeah I could keep him off his feet most of the time, but I only have 638 HPs and no self heal. And what is that for a boss? 3-5 hits?
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I've been pinning an even con crey power tank (35) using nothing but hurricane and steamy mist for over 5 minutes now, and so far i've regenerated to full health between each of his hits, since they're so far apart. It seems when I use snowstorm he runs away
But yeah, it did take me over a minute to kill him using charged bolts, ball lightning, and sand of mu.
+1 Vortex Cor Leonis Archon. Nope, he can't kill me, even though he got a crit on me before I tagged him with hurricane.
+1 Tank Smasher. Nope, he can't kill me either. He might be able to on the off chance that he could get in range to hit me with handclap (and it not miss).
+1 greater devoured. Nope. Though I did find the swarms entertaining.
If you're using more powers than I am at a lower level and dying where I am constantly at full health, I think your analysis is lacking something.
Either you're embellishing the truth, or you haven't slotted hurricane. That's how it appears, that is.
edit: I'll add that being mezzed completely ruins storm, but that's true for any defender, and not what you're alluding to in your statement.
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Ok, so where exactly should I get those extra slots for Hurricane from? Pull them out of my [censored]? Even if you don't count the extra powers you have 11 more slots than I do. The only powers that have extra slots are Freezing Rain, Hover, Fly, and the four attacks, 3 of which are 1 accy/3 dam/1 end, and Short Circuit with 4 EndMod set IOs. Oh, and Stamina, that has 2 extra slots. I could replace the end reducer with a tohit debuff, but that would only make my end problems worse.
And honestly, I don't see how pinning a boss against a wall and chipping away at him for 2 minutes is even remotely considered "fun". Electricity is just not a very good damage set. Where other sets get a "high" or "superior" short range single target attack, Electricity gets Tesla Cage (useless against a boss). And instead of a nice moderate damage cone attack we get Short Circuit, more of a debuff than a damage power.
I have never had Voltaic Sentinel, so I don't really know how much of a help it is for a Defender. I guess I'll find out someday.
The funny thing is, Electricity is really harsh for a Defender, but it works really well for a Blaster. The very first character I ever created is Electric/Electric. Now that's a pretty fun combo, even though I'm not big on Blasters.
I might just take this Defender back over to the test server and tweak her as a team-only character and leave it at that. No sense in driving myself crazy over it. That's pretty much the way all of my Defenders are going. I really prefer to have a balanced build, but it's just not worth the frustration.
Wanna know the other funny thing? I have an Ice/Storm troller who seriously ROCKS.
Just only one that sucks is the Defender.
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The key isn't damage via an attack chain, its short circuit.
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Well, not for nothing, but this is an example of, "A Defender shouldn't rely on his Secondary for something his Primary should give him." If you say things like, "Well, my FF does fine because I use my Electric Blasts to do X", well, anyone who doesn't have Electric Blasts obviously can't do X.
Of course, there is some amount of overlap, one of the strongest features of Radiation Blast is the disorient in Cosmic Burst, and other sets have their status controls, too. I'm not saying that Defenders shouldn't be allowed to use or rely on such powers, it's just a slippery slope when you start trying to judge a Primary based on synergy with a Secondary.
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But there is something to be said with that kind of synergy. Had I chosen Dark as a primary, I could stack the Petrifying Gaze with Tesla cage and hold a boss. Or Storm with Dark and do the same trick with Thunder Clap and Dark Pit (Psi, Sonic, Rad, and Archery have single target disorients as well). Dark and Rad work well together -- one debuffs accy and resistance, the other debuffs defense.
It just irks me that the unnatural pairings seem to synergize better than the natural ones do. Dark/Rad is a much better combination than Dark/Dark, IMO. And Storm, with which you think Electricity would be the perfect match, isn't. They are both long on control and short on damage. Storm is better paired with Archery, Energy, or Psi -- sets that are more damage-oriented.
Oh well. C'est la vie.
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Ok, so where exactly should I get those extra slots for Hurricane from? Pull them out of my [censored]?
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and Short Circuit with 4 EndMod set IOs
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Right there.
I do like having short circuit slotted for endmod. Don't misunderstand.
However, if you're going to skip slotting one of the most powerful tohitdebuffs in the game, then comment on your inability to survive something that debuff makes trivial, then you can shove the condescension back into your [censored] where I just found the slots. (edit: that sounded a bit more cross than I intended. I just though it sounded funny)
5 slots (I have 3tohit and 2endredux) on 1 power to survive any solo content with ease unless you go looking for harder things. We obviously have different build priorities, but don't act as though it's impossible.
This appears to be aside from your actual point, so I'll just state I agree otherwise, especially with elec's unimpressive damage for soloing defenders.
I'd suggest changing Force Bubble... I'm afraid to because there are some hard cores out there that dig pushing enemies around and there's tons of people that resist any and all changes to the game... They like having useless powers, unbalanced ATs, inherents that are useless... what are these people? Masochists? ... Or as they're called in game "PvPers".
Well here goes anyway. How about instead of force bubbles repelling enemies, it be turned to a big mobile debuff. Enemies within it suffer a reduction to their accuracy, slowed movement, and every once in a while, get knocked down. This would cause a lot of aggro onto the force fielder though... maybe it could give the guy a 10% defense/resistance bonus to make up for it.
Keeping enemies at range is not a defense at all. Many enemies don't even try to use their melee attacks and all of them have a range greater than the diameter of the Force Bubble. This is a throwback from the days of Stateman's dream that keeping enemies at distance is a form of defense which... doesn't work!
I remember building my earth/storm controller. I resisted for the longest time taking my mass immobile until I finally gave in and took it so I could out damage defenders by giving my enemies knockdown immunity and unleashing tornado and lightening storm on them. Well I hardly ever use it unless I'm on a very defensive team. I could either have earthquake and freezing rain knocking them down and rendering them helpless or I could use stone cages... and DIE!
"The bird of Hermes is my name. Eating my wings to make me tame." -The Ripley Scroll
Check out my Deviant Art: http://darkauthor81.deviantart.com/
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I'd suggest changing Force Bubble... I'm afraid to because there are some hard cores out there that dig pushing enemies around and there's tons of people that resist any and all changes to the game... They like having useless powers, unbalanced ATs, inherents that are useless... what are these people? Masochists? ... Or as they're called in game "PvPers".
Well here goes anyway. How about instead of force bubbles repelling enemies, it be turned to a big mobile debuff. Enemies within it suffer a reduction to their accuracy, slowed movement, and every once in a while, get knocked down. This would cause a lot of aggro onto the force fielder though... maybe it could give the guy a 10% defense/resistance bonus to make up for it.
Keeping enemies at range is not a defense at all. Many enemies don't even try to use their melee attacks and all of them have a range greater than the diameter of the Force Bubble. This is a throwback from the days of Stateman's dream that keeping enemies at distance is a form of defense which... doesn't work!
I remember building my earth/storm controller. I resisted for the longest time taking my mass immobile until I finally gave in and took it so I could out damage defenders by giving my enemies knockdown immunity and unleashing tornado and lightening storm on them. Well I hardly ever use it unless I'm on a very defensive team. I could either have earthquake and freezing rain knocking them down and rendering them helpless or I could use stone cages... and DIE!
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Yeah, Stone Cages does seem to annoy critters a lot worse than other AoE Immobilizes do. Not really sure why. Trick is to let the tank grab aggro BEFORE you stone them.
I have a Stone/Sonic troller and a bunch of months back I was on a team with another Stone troller who insisted upon opening every battle with Stone Cages before the Tank ran in and grabbed aggro. And he died. Every single time. Like 10x in a row. Now I know stone tends to be *dense*, but this was just a bit ridiculous.
He also had a nasty habit of using Stone Cages on top of my Earthquake. I sent him a tell kindy asking him to wait till Earthquake had run out before stoning them, as it renders Earthquake useless. He responded very irately that this was his favorite power, and if he didn't use it he'd have no other good powers to use. He was level 22 btw.
Sigh...
So... You dont have 'cane slotted up, and your complaining about your survivability?
I can understand the lack of damage (even though your stormy can buff his damage where my FF cant) but with a few slots of investment you can pretty much make yourself unkillable by a single boss.
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So... You dont have 'cane slotted up, and your complaining about your survivability?
I can understand the lack of damage (even though your stormy can buff his damage where my FF cant) but with a few slots of investment you can pretty much make yourself unkillable by a single boss.
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I apologize, I wasn't aware we gained XP for debuffing things to death. My bad.
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This whole argument about whether Defenders need more damage being broken down into semantics is mind boggling to say the least.
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...Yeah. I agree that Defenders could use a bit more damage, but expecting them to solo as well as *anything* else, even post-GDN Controllers, is something I don't agree with. (Previously, I'd have said that Controllers should have been worse, and sometimes they were.)
I think Vigilance should give you endurance reduction (and maybe even a small +Damage) when your team is at HIGH health. That would be both functional and logical, unlike the current (what am I going to do on my FF, "Bubble Faster?" Or is Force Bubble supposed to have prohibitive endurance use?). Still, as it currently, is, I consider that Negligence probably wasn't intended to be useful, and is therefore doing its job nicely.
(Now I'm just trying to figure out how Storm/Elec is having trouble with bosses. Shouldn't the whole "knocked down in a corner with no accuracy or endurance" thing help with that? I'm no fan of Elec for Defenders, but other than being slightly slower than other sets it's not THAT weak.)