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I really do get a kick when someone tries to tell me I don't know how to play a set because I say something derogatory about it. Tell me, what level is your Storm/Non-Sonic Defender, and how many levels did you solo through??
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Actually, my character is 41 and he's Storm/Dark and I soloed him for more than half of those levels.
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Now was this back in I1-5? Because after that and I'd have to call you a big fat LIAR. Or someone who enjoys pain and suffering.
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Go read my guide. Hell, post a new topic asking people if they can solo with their Stormers. Storm is one of the most solo friendly Defender primaries there are. The general mayhem and debuffs should be more than enough to protect you. Dark by the way, is probably the most synergistic combo with Storm out of all secondaries.
A I've already said, go read my guide or ask The Mighty Storm now that she's back.
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Then I guess I just picked the wrong secondary -- Electricity. Cause even at lvl 28 with 3 slotted Stamina, all attacks slotted 1 accy/3 damage/1 end (except Short Circuit which is 3 slotted for end mod instead of damage) I cannot defeat even heroic spawns. If I don't use any primaries and just attack I have just enough endurance to take them out, but I am left dead or nearly dead.
If I drop Freezing Rain on them, even with the -res debuff I run out of endurance before they're all dead. Same with Hurricane. I can keep them from attacking me and take little to no damage, but there is not enough endurance left over for me to kill them. And with 2 single target attacks, one AoE attack, and one PbAoE attack, it's just not possible to form a decent attack chain.
So basically I can protect myself, or kill them (with high risk of death), but not both. Which kinda puts a kink in soloing.
Ok, Mighty One, King of Storm... what the hell do I do?
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maybe I'm building badly or a lousy player - though I think I'm just average and with slow reflexes, but a lot of knowledge of the game - but I can't solo very well with my defenders, even though they're the AT I play most.
I can't manage even a heroic mission versus mobs that stun or hold. If I miss a few too many times in a fight, I run out of endurance and can't protect myself anymore.
I take attacks on my defenders, and I slot them, but, let's take my level 50 kinetic defender for example. She solos about as well as a level 11 scrapper, which means, she can usually do fine in a heroic mission but an EB or a couple of +1 groups too close together and she dies. Or being held without enough breakfrees (and I don't count it as "can solo" if you have to stop in the middle of a mission and go to Pocket D to buy inspirations).
My storm defender couldn't even solo that well with her previous build, but I respec'd her and figured out a strategy for her and now I can solo at that level 11 scrapper (scrapper with no protection from mez and training enhances) by debuffing the heck out of their to hit - hurricane and a couple of dark blast cones. So they miss her a lot. That's her only defense. (storm defender is now level 33, she was created back in 2004)
The problem is that defenders attacks do so little damage, even fully slotted, it takes them much more than twice as long to defeat an opponent than a blaster. And they have powers with more self protection, but depending on the primary, that can vary and be problematic taking too much endurance.
Prior to getting stamina, many defenders simply can't defeat opponents that are resistant to their damage types. They run out of endurance before doing enough damage. The enemy recovers hp faster than they recover endurance to go on attacking. This is because the powers the defender uses to help themself cost a lot more than scrappers self protection powers - because they are really team protection powers. But when soloing the cost is the same as protecting the team - higher even due to lack of defiance - even though the use of the power is much lower. Look at the amount of self healing an empathy defender gets vs a regeneration scrapper, per endurance point used from healing aura vs reconstruction.
So, sure defenders 'can' solo. but it's no fun to me. I like playing defenders in teams. I do have some of that 'add scrapper soloer' mentality, that's why my first 50 was a kinetic defender - she speeds up entire teams' play so I could play at the speed I enjoyed.
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Just wanted to add that your experience closely mirrors my own with Defenders. I can solo on Heroic(that's using my 50 FF/Eng or 50 Storm/Psi) but it is slooow in comparison to my Scrapper, Controller or Tank. Agree on the End issues too. When soloing I have to pay closer attention to endurance than I do other ATs because fights take so much longer. Longer fights mean watching my Health more closely too since "I can't defend myself as well as others" and I have no self-heal.
I just don't find Defenders very fun anymore compared to the other ATs. It's resulted in play with a team or don't play at all.
How about giving Defenders combos so they stand out from the other ATs, especially Controllers? At the very least I wouldn't mind stringing some powers together for an Endurance discount instead of hoping a team member would get wasted so I can do more than maintain toggles and bubble.
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I really do get a kick when someone tries to tell me I don't know how to play a set because I say something derogatory about it. Tell me, what level is your Storm/Non-Sonic Defender, and how many levels did you solo through??
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Actually, my character is 41 and he's Storm/Dark and I soloed him for more than half of those levels.
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Now was this back in I1-5? Because after that and I'd have to call you a big fat LIAR. Or someone who enjoys pain and suffering.
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Go read my guide. Hell, post a new topic asking people if they can solo with their Stormers. Storm is one of the most solo friendly Defender primaries there are. The general mayhem and debuffs should be more than enough to protect you. Dark by the way, is probably the most synergistic combo with Storm out of all secondaries.
A I've already said, go read my guide or ask The Mighty Storm now that she's back.
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Then I guess I just picked the wrong secondary -- Electricity. Cause even at lvl 28 with 3 slotted Stamina, all attacks slotted 1 accy/3 damage/1 end (except Short Circuit which is 3 slotted for end mod instead of damage) I cannot defeat even heroic spawns. If I don't use any primaries and just attack I have just enough endurance to take them out, but I am left dead or nearly dead.
If I drop Freezing Rain on them, even with the -res debuff I run out of endurance before they're all dead. Same with Hurricane. I can keep them from attacking me and take little to no damage, but there is not enough endurance left over for me to kill them. And with 2 single target attacks, one AoE attack, and one PbAoE attack, it's just not possible to form a decent attack chain.
So basically I can protect myself, or kill them (with high risk of death), but not both. Which kinda puts a kink in soloing.
Ok, Mighty One, King of Storm... what the hell do I do?
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Elec is often viewed as the weakest secondary damage wise. It compensates through it's hold, pet, a ranged nuke and it's ability to drain endurance. This isn't to say Elec is bad, just that it synergizes better with some primaries than others.
While a lot of people think Elec synergizes the best with Storm thematically, in-game I believe Dark Blast complements it best.
Elec lacks the 1-2-3 single target attack chain of some sets and it's AoEs recharge in 16 and 20 seconds base. That's slow. Other sets have AoE's recharging anywhere from 8 to 20 seconds.
PM me your build and I'll try to help you with it.
I wonder what majicj thinks of the change to Repulsion Bomb? 
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What did Defenders get? Vigilance. Translation: nothing. Other than some minor additions and/or changes to a few powers here and there (not all good, mind you -- some would be classified as a nerf), Defenders got nothing.
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I do agree that Vigilance is not sufficient when compared to other Inherents. So in that sense, yes, Defenders have not been brought back up to the same level as other Archetypes.
However, I'm not sure that the Defender Inherent needs to boost their damage. The Tanker Inherent does not boost damage. (In fact, it's the only one that doesn't, other than Vigilance) There are those who claim that Gauntlet is useless, or not enough, but I feel that it DOES do the job that is set for it, considerably better than any other Archetype can. So while it may not do what we want it to do as an Inherent, it does seem to be up to a level with them.
Vigilance needs something, but I'm not sure what. And honestly, there are deeper issues with FF (and other sets) that an Inherent can't solve. We want an Inherent to reduce imbalance between Power Sets, not increase it.
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I never suggested Vigilance be turned into a damage buff. I think Defenders secondaries should get an across the board 20% base damage increase -- nothing to do with Vigilance.
I actually like the idea of an endurance discount inherent, especially for a Defender, so I'm ok with the concept. Its the execution that needs help.
I propose that instead of it being based upon the average health of your teammates it be based upon the number of foes within 80' of you. This keeps it thematic to "vigilance", and also makes it fair and balanced to all Defenders, regardless of powersets, slotting, and skill (or lack thereof). Also the power MUST be active regardless of whether you are teamed or solo.
Having it work like this gives you the greatest discount at the beginning of a battle when you're going to be firing up all your buffs and debuffs, and then slowly decreases over time as the foes are defeated and there is less "defending" to do. Allowing it to work while solo will immensely help those Defenders whose chief barrier is constantly running out of endurance.
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But I digress. The Defender AT needs two things: an across the board damage buff and a version of Vigilance that works for the soloist.
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Well, I would say that the damage buff needs to be dependent on the Primary, not across the board. For one thing, starting with Sets that don't HAVE one would be a good start...
(Going off the topic, but I wonder if it would be possible to have an Inherent that somehow adapted to the Primary. Like for instance if you have a lot of offense like Kin, it gives you defense, and obviously with FF it would boost your damage. Maybe base it on what kind of powers you use. Just a thought...)
You're on the money about what is needed for the soloist, though. The Endurance issue is really the same as the damage one. Defenders use so much Endurance because their attacks are so inefficient. Plus, they have to use damage boost powers on top of that, which uses up even more Endurance.
On the other hand, lots of Defender Primaries have either Endurance regeneration or a way to recover Endurance.
Really, the biggest issue with Defenders is that more than any other Archetype, it is dependent on its powers. It has damage buffs that can make it do Blaster-level damage, so it has to have low base damage. It has lots of powers that enable it to avoid attacks and reduce damage, so it is very robust. It has powers that increase its attack rate and recharge Endurance, so it has to have a high Endurance cost. In a way, it's like Masterminds, that have to have weak base abilities to compensate for their henchmen.
The problem comes when you are missing some of those tools. Either because they aren't available, or because you didn't pick up that power. I wouldn't begin to guess how horrid it would be trying to solo a D3 without Tar Patch. (or even without Tar Patch 3 slotted for recharge)
I'm not sure there's a way to fix that without dramatically changing the Archetype.
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Here we will disagree. Defender base damage needs to be raised by 20% for all secondaries. You never balance secondaries based upon primaries or on secondary attributes. Just give every power in every secondary that does damage a 20% increase. Done. This puts us back at a damage scale that is much closer to the .65 of Blaster that we're supposed to be. Remember, Blasters and Corrupters were buffed, but we weren't. We're supposed be at 65% damage of a Blaster, but right now we're about 54%. This needs to be fixed.
And actually, only 3 Defender primaries out of 8 have any kind of +recovery or +end. Empathy has both a self+team and a teammate only +recovery, Radiation has +recovery, and Kinetics has +end and a teammate only +recovery. The thing is, the really useful ones all come late in the set. Empathy gets Recovery Aura at 18. Radiation gets Accelerate Metabolism very early, but the +recovery is very small, just enough to cover the extra endurance used by the +recharge component. And Kinetics gets Transference at 26, but it needs a foe to fuel it.
And trust me, giving Defenders a 20% base damage increase will in no way get them even close to a Corruptor, let alone Blaster, no matter what their primary is. We are flopped with Corruptors, right? So we should do slightly less damage in exchange for slightly better buffs/debuffs. Right now that balance is way off. A 20% damage increase puts things back to where they should be.
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I wonder what majicj thinks of the change to Repulsion Bomb?
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I think at first she'll crap a brick, then realize the knockdown can most likely be turned into a knockback with a KO enhancer.
Then she'll [censored] another brick when she realizes she won't get containment.
Aw... poor thing...
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I wonder what majicj thinks of the change to Repulsion Bomb?
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I think at first she'll crap a brick, then realize the knockdown can most likely be turned into a knockback with a KO enhancer.
Then she'll [censored] another brick when she realizes she won't get containment.
Aw... poor thing...
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*is still doing the Happy Dance*
See? Dreams can come true if you work hard enough. I'd like to take this as a personal victory and shove it in the face of all the nay-sayers.
NCSoft is a business. The business is here to make money, and they can't make money if their customers are unhappy and leave. This change already has made everyone that plays FF happy, except for one person. I'd say that's one step forward.
I'm eagerly and patiently waiting to see what other changes might be coming in the future. Castle has already hinted with his cryptic response that more changes ARE coming, it's just a matter of time. I've waited over three years for this to happen, I can wait a little longer.
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I wonder what majicj thinks of the change to Repulsion Bomb?
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Actually, I believe she already pointed out that with knockback reduced to knockdown, you will be unable to get it back up to its original 10.something magnitude with slotting. So I'm sure she'll say that this has nerfed the power for her as a Controller.
I'm not sure the disorient is going away, though, so it may still set up Containment. As low a chance as that is.
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Here we will disagree. Defender base damage needs to be raised by 20% for all secondaries. You never balance secondaries based upon primaries or on secondary attributes. Just give every power in every secondary that does damage a 20% increase. Done. This puts us back at a damage scale that is much closer to the .65 of Blaster that we're supposed to be. Remember, Blasters and Corrupters were buffed, but we weren't. We're supposed be at 65% damage of a Blaster, but right now we're about 54%. This needs to be fixed.
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And trust me, giving Defenders a 20% base damage increase will in no way get them even close to a Corruptor, let alone Blaster, no matter what their primary is. We are flopped with Corruptors, right? So we should do slightly less damage in exchange for slightly better buffs/debuffs. Right now that balance is way off. A 20% damage increase puts things back to where they should be.
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The problem with that is that Corruptors have a 0.75 base modifier. So if we raise Defender damage any more, whether it's through a base damage buff or a 20% buff to the scale damage of all their powers, Defenders will end up doing more damage than Corruptors. Since Corruptors have only 80% of the defenses of a Defender, that will create an imbalance.
You might argue that Scourge adds to the Corruptor's base damage, raising it above what a Defender can do, however it's already been established that certain Defender builds can come very close to a Corruptor's damage, or even exceed it. Scourge only kicks in late in the fight, and at most, it represents only a 25% increase in damage. In practice, it is probably lower than that, due to wasted damage.
If you want to balance the Corruptor's Inherent, then give Defenders an Inherent that boosts damage. I don't think that's even necessary, though, because of the advantage that the Defender's greater damage buffs represent to his total damage.
Wait a minute... what? Corruptors were buffed? What are you talking about, I haven't heard anything about this. As far as I know, Corruptors went from 75% of the damage of a Blaster to 67% with the Blaster boost, just like we went from 65% to 57%.
I too am very pleased with the planned change to Repulsion Bomb.
On the topic of the difficulty of soloing a Defender, this is by design. It was not intended to be easy to solo. The (albeit dated) COH Manual states this as much in the description for the AT. Even the name suggests that this is a team oriented AT. "Defender" a defends his teammates. Defend is a transitive verb. (An interpretation of self-defense is also possible, but the ultimate self-defense is to avoid battle and not to go looking for a fight. Playing solitaire in the SG base is surely the best defense.)
Defender is the only AT name that is based on a verb whose object is the teammate instead of the enemy. Controllers control a mob. Scrappers scrap with a mob. Blasters blast ... wait for it... a mob. And Tankers "tank" a mob (note that this use of the word is game jargan but it fits the pattern).
I don't think there is good justification for making changes to the Defender AT to make it a better soloist. If becoming a better soloist is a side effect of the changes made for other reasons, that's great.
This is a MMORPG. It is ok to have some parts of it dependent on the MM aspect.
That being said, I have soloed my Defenders. It is very slow going, and I prefer to be on a team. My builds are primarily team oriented, but I don't shy away from choosing powers that help solo when it won't take away from a more team-friendly power.
Soloing a Defender can be very challenging. You don't progress quickly in levels. You have to be very careful to avoid getting in over your head. It requires lots of patience. At times it can require a lot of skill. While these seem like negatives, they are actually neutral statements. They are negatives to many people, but positives to some people who like such challenges. I am in either camp (negative/positive) depending on my mood and what I want to explore/experience in the game session.
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I propose that instead of it being based upon the average health of your teammates it be based upon the number of foes within 80' of you. This keeps it thematic to "vigilance", and also makes it fair and balanced to all Defenders, regardless of powersets, slotting, and skill (or lack thereof).
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I like this idea.
I like the way that it shifts "vigilance" from being vigilant about your teammates to being vigilant about the threat around you so it is still a plausable interpretation of the super ability.
I like also how it turns Vigilance into an ability usable often like other ATs' inherents instead of rarely. If a Defender is serving the team very well, his current Vigilance would be used rarely. And if the Defender likes using his current inherent and letting the team members health decline greatly, it provides incentive to work against the team's best interest (staying very alive and healthy).
If this revised Vigilance is intended to scale with the threat being faced, I would offer the following suggestion as a tweak on it. Factor in the level of the enemy being faced and Lieut/Boss/EB/AV status in addition to the quantity.
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On the topic of the difficulty of soloing a Defender, this is by design. It was not intended to be easy to solo. The (albeit dated) COH Manual states this as much in the description for the AT.
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Actually, the official description of the Defender doesn't say anything about soloing. The manual may say something different, but primarily the Defender is described as the best at strengthening the team. It IS mentioned, however, that the Defender has long ranged attacks, and that he is well defended, "they aren't fragile", are the exact words. So the description doesn't say the Defender can't be soloed, just that he's mainly a team player.
It may be difficult to solo a Defender, because there are so many things to be considered during a battle, and because there can be such a lengthy set-up period. But if the devs did not intend for the Defender to be soloable, they would not have given it ranged attacks. They would have created a second Archetype like the Controller, with primarily team support powers and few attacks. After all, Ranged + Defense is the Tank Mage, and the Defender comes closest to that in CoH. If the devs truly wanted to avoid anything close to the Tank Mage, it would have been easy enough to make Defenders Buff/Debuff + Defense or Buff/Debuff + Melee.
The devs did not give Defenders a Secondary with the intention that it never be used. And sometimes the best defense is a good offense.
In fact, the devs stated particularly when this game was being designed that it was their intention to make ALL Archetypes soloable. Including Defenders, and including Controllers.
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I too am very pleased with the planned change to Repulsion Bomb.
On the topic of the difficulty of soloing a Defender, this is by design...
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I strongly disagree with every single thing you said in your post.
You honestly believe that the name "Defender" in any way defines us as primarily team-support characters? Give me a break.
I play defence in hockey. I'm described as a Defenceman. Does that mean I'm there to support my team and not contribute offensively? Hell no. And if you know anything about hockey, the most devastating hitters in the game are usually blueliners. Same with players renowned for their powerful shots.
See how a definition of a word can be used to support a completely opposite position?
As for being the AT that is supposed to be about team support, where the hell were you before Controllers got containment. That was the team support AT, not Defenders. Since the atrocity that is Containment was brought in, Controller damage is in some cases better than Defenders. The devs have made a complete mess of the lines between ATs in their desire to make any character capable of soloing.
Quite honestly, your analysis of our name as an excuse to define us as a team support AT is crap.
Please, CG.
Don't hold back; tell us what you /really/ think.
And for whoever was on the receiving end of CG's post: Some folks, and probably the majority in this forum, think defenders are properly played as Offenders.
There's a joke in here about being offensive somewhere, too.
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I too am very pleased with the planned change to Repulsion Bomb.
On the topic of the difficulty of soloing a Defender, this is by design...
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I strongly disagree with every single thing you said in your post.
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Everything, or do you not mean his agreement with the Repulsion Bomb change?
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Please, CG.
Don't hold back; tell us what you /really/ think.
And for whoever was on the receiving end of CG's post: Some folks, and probably the majority in this forum, think defenders are properly played as Offenders.
There's a joke in here about being offensive somewhere, too.
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Actually, what I was going to say was, "See, that's where being 'Defensive' can actually be pretty aggressive."
I'm not complaining, though, we've got a little "good-cop bad-cop" thing going.
I'll have to check how good RB is now with the changes, especially after they let us slot for damage.
Actually, the part about Vigilance isn't bad either. As it is, we have the biggest stinker of an inherent out of all the ATs, both hero and villain side.
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Actually, the part about Vigilance isn't bad either. As it is, we have the biggest stinker of an inherent out of all the ATs, both hero and villain side.
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I'm starting to think I have a good idea for an Inherent. Something like current Defiance, where every time you use a Power, you get a short duration buff. However in this case, whenever you use a defensive buff on an ally or debuff on a foe, you get a boost to your damage, and when you use an offensive buff on an ally or debuff a foe's defense, you get a boost to your defense. (Resistance. By "defense" I mean any defensive power)
That would actually raise damage and defense across the board, but more defensive builds like FF would get more offense, and offensive sets like Kin would get defense. It would help balance things out.
I'm not sure how to work control powers into that, though. Maybe they should count as defenses so you get a damage boost.
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Actually, the official description of the Defender doesn't say anything about soloing. The manual may say something different, but primarily the Defender is described as the best at strengthening the team.
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I'm not sure what you mean by "the official description". Where can I read this? I'm not picking a fight here. I'd like to learn more.
The CoH manual on page 9 in the section describing each AT says:
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The Defender is a suitable archetype for grouping, though
soloing is possibledifficult, but possible.
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This does not say the devs never wanted this to be soloed.
Is not the CoH Manual an "official description"?
I am not asserting that Defenders are forbidden from soloing. I am asserting that they are designed for team play for their primary role. Soloing is possible, but difficult by design. I think I wrote as much in my earlier post.
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But if the devs did not intend for the Defender to be soloable, they would not have given it ranged attacks.
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(Now that in the following I'm nitpicking solely for the sake of academic debate.)
I don't see the logic here. Ranged attacks are not specific to soloing.
That would be the connecting logical concept. This is how I interpret your syllogism.
Defenders have ranged attacks.
Ranged attacks can only be used when soloing.
Defenders must have been designed to be able to solo.
Maybe you meant to say "they would not have given it any form of attack."
Defenders have can attack.
Attacks can only be used when soloing.
Defenders must have been designed to be able to solo.
Still it doesn't work. I don't agree with the second statement since attacks can be used for either solo or team play.
I can see the logic in this syllogism though.
Defenders have no attacks whatsoever.
You must have an attack ability to be able to solo.
Defenders were designed only for team play.
Maybe this is what you were thinking of. But that isn't what we have. The first condition isn't met.
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The devs did not give Defenders a Secondary with the intention that it never be used. And sometimes the best defense is a good offense.
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I agree.
On my defenders I use my secondaries often both soloing and on a team. My secondaries do damage and debuff mobs.
I don't see this as being pertinent to the issue of soloing.
Defenders have two powersets: Buff/Debuff and Damage.
Controllers have two powersets: Control and Buff/Debuff.
See anything missing from the Controller description? Yep, Damage. When the game released (which is probably about the time the manual became obsolete) Controllers were the teaming AT, thus no damage powerset.
Unfortunately, because Controllers had so much trouble soloing at lower levels (pre-pet) the developers decided to add in the travesty that is containment, thus granting Controllers what is a third facet or powerset: Damage and throwing a lot of balance out of whack. The primary team focussed AT disappeared, to be replaced by the tank-mages of today.
So yes, Defenders were originally intended to be an AT that was good on a team. But they were not the AT that required teaming, that was the Controllers. What's interesting is that there are Defender builds that are in a very similar soloing boat that Controllers used to be in, and yet there's very little concern about possibly fixing them. FF is one.
At the moment Controllers changed from post pet powerhouses to full game powerhouses, the AT's and their purposes became a lot more skewed, and Defenders inherited the "team player" mantle by default, not by design.
EDIT: I think perception has become reality for a lot of people. The Defender is the "team" AT, and thus no one cares whether they can solo well or not. Those people forget the history of the game, and of Controllers specifically.
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You honestly believe that the name "Defender" in any way defines us as primarily team-support characters?
Quite honestly, your analysis of our name as an excuse to define us as a team support AT is crap.
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You are mistakenly adding words to my analysis. I do not define Defenders as "team support". My appeal to the word choice "Defender" is to illustrate how a Defender is primarily meant to be part of a team. The defender is not designed to be as effective solo as other ATs.
I am surprised that this is such a controversial concept. But I can understand drawing the wrong conclusion if you accidentally misread my post.
The role that the Defender plays on a team is left as an exercise to the reader. Different defender power choices will affect that answer quite a bit. Is this role best described as "team support"? I don't know. Is a blaster's role on a team "team support"? A tanker's? My FF/sonic defender was playing either role recently a tankerless large team.
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I play defence in hockey. I'm described as a Defenceman. Does that mean I'm there to support my team and not contribute offensively?
See how a definition of a word can be used to support a completely opposite position?
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Help me understand how your hockey experience sheds light on my previous argument. Why are you labeled a Defenceman? What are you defending? I'm not an expert on hockey, but my guess is that you are supposed to defend the goal and the area of the ice on that side of the rink. The only thing needed for the term to make sense in that case is that there be a goal and a threat to that goal. No teammates are implied.
If that is the case this differs from my analysis where the CoH Defender is defending their teammates and thus implies the existance of the teammates.
If your role is to defend your teammates similar to the way there are blockers to protect a quarterback in American football, then I can see the parallel. In that case it does have the same logic as my argument. It implies that your teammates exist and thus your role is designed primarily to exist in the context of a team.
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As for being the AT that is supposed to be about team support, where the hell were you before Controllers got containment. That was the team support AT, not Defenders.
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I presume the first sentence is a rhetorical question. If not, I'm not sure why you care, but I was probably in my home office. I'm there a lot. Is it important? I can probably check my old calendars.
I'm not embracing the "team support" term, but for the sake of argument, how is a Controller being labeled as team support relevant to the issue of a Defender also being labeled as a team support AT? I don't see the logical connection. Are you asserting that there can only be one in the game? If a Troller is one, then a Defender must not be one?
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I'm not sure what you mean by "the official description". Where can I read this? I'm not picking a fight here. I'd like to learn more.
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http://www.cityofheroes.com/gameinfo/archetypes.html
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The CoH manual on page 9 in the section describing each AT says:
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The Defender is a suitable archetype for grouping, though
soloing is possibledifficult, but possible.
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This does not say the devs never wanted this to be soloed.
Is not the CoH Manual an "official description"?
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It's been a long time since I read the CoH Manual that was included with the game, but I have never taken it as gospel. As you said yourself, it is outdated. The truth is, there is no "official description", per se. The Defender is what it is, within the limitations set by its Power Sets and stats.
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I am not asserting that Defenders are forbidden from soloing. I am asserting that they are designed for team play for their primary role. Soloing is possible, but difficult by design. I think I wrote as much in my earlier post.
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Technically speaking, yes, you did say that Defenders are described as "difficult to solo". And technically speaking, yes, that is the way they are usually described. However, "difficult to solo" is hardly a point to be debated. Blasters are "difficult to solo". Tankers are "difficult to solo". Even Scrappers are "difficult to solo", if you think you are entitled to just kill everything freely with no risk.
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I don't see the logic here. Ranged attacks are not specific to soloing.
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In what way does a character that specializes (either primarily or secondarily) with ranged attacks NOT find these abilities useful for soloing?
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That would be the connecting logical concept. This is how I interpret your syllogism.
Defenders have ranged attacks.
Ranged attacks can only be used when soloing.
Defenders must have been designed to be able to solo.
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This is logical nonsense. At no time did I say that ranged attacks could ONLY be used solo. Merely that they are HELPFUL solo.
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Defenders have no attacks whatsoever.
You must have an attack ability to be able to solo.
Defenders were designed only for team play.
Maybe this is what you were thinking of. But that isn't what we have. The first condition isn't met.
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This is closer. It is arguing the negative. But how about this:
You must have an attack ability to be able to solo.
Defenders have ranged attacks
Defenders can solo.
This is still an incomplete syllogism, because there may be OTHER things Defenders need in order to solo. But at least it's making some logical sense.
You must have an attack ability to be able to solo.
Defenders have the Brawl attack
Defenders can solo.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
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I really do get a kick when someone tries to tell me I don't know how to play a set because I say something derogatory about it. Tell me, what level is your Storm/Non-Sonic Defender, and how many levels did you solo through??
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Actually, my character is 41 and he's Storm/Dark and I soloed him for more than half of those levels.
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Now was this back in I1-5? Because after that and I'd have to call you a big fat LIAR. Or someone who enjoys pain and suffering.
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Um, ED was I5, right? Either way, Defenders could 6 slot damage and mow through spawns, just like everyone else. Anyone who heavily slotted damage could solo no problem.