[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I for one would sure love to see a Dark/Sonic Defender solo an AV or GM without having to use an entire tray of blue skittles...
[/ QUOTE ]
Even if you can't afford IO's to boost your recovery, the IO system still frees up slots that you can use to slot End Reduc all over the place.
[ QUOTE ]
But they can't solo for [censored].
[/ QUOTE ]
Speak for yourself, my Rad/Sonic has been able to solo Invincible since level 6--and without using blue candy since around level 30.
[ QUOTE ]
by and large Defenders can't solo worth a damn.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you don't try to, you won't succeed. My 33 Emp/Rad has three attacks, but she is very good on a team. My FF/Dark is okay in both situations. Psynado's Storm/Psy is quite impressive all around. It just depends on your build.
[ QUOTE ]
And as I've stated this before numerous times, it's mostly due to AT modifiers that have not changed in 4 years, even though 9 out of 11 ATs have gotten inherent abilities that buff damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
What and the huh now? Defenders were the only ones not nerfed by i5 and i6. 
This, really, is the reason that Defenders are the most powerful AT--they're still oldschool.
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders do significantly less damage than they should because of this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Debatable. This is not CoV, we are not all wannabe Blasters.
[ QUOTE ]
Factor in that Vigilance is completely borked and does nothing for you at all...
[/ QUOTE ]
Fixed it for you. Anyway, you have to take it in context: "Negligence" was added only as a formality, since the other 11 AT's all had inherents at that point. It's not really supposed to be a buff.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, you speak of specific builds, oddly enough those that all revolve around resistance debuffs... hmm...
Try playing a Defender that *can't* buff their own damage with multiple powers, like FF/Psi, or Trick Arrow/Archery, or Storm/Electricity.
Cherry picking the perfect combination of primary and secondary and then twinking them out with IO sets does not magically mean that's the way it is for the entire AT. That fact that the only way to have a decent solo Defender is to have multiple resistance debuffs, self heals, self recovery, or multiple IO sets only underscores there is a problem with the set. Even the most n00bish of players should be able to pick any two Defender sets that appeal to them and be able to efficiently solo without having to scour the forums for an optimum build guide or farm for influence to be able to afford set IO at 4 mil inf each.
Take any combination of Scrapper sets, and they are all effective solo and on teams. The same holds true of Controllers, Tanks, Corruptors, Dominators, Stalkers and Masterminds. Yes, some combinations are more effective than others, but even the worst matching sets are still effective.
You simply cannot say that about Defenders.
And Vigilance is not supposed to be a buff? So why then does every other AT get a useful inherent except Defenders? And you don't call that a nerf? Or at the very least imbalanced?
This is totally off topic, but any Storm or Trick Arrow Defender that can't solo probably has no clue how to play the sets. Those are two of the stronger soloing sets.
Quite honestly, the only primaries that might have issues soloing quickly are Emp and FF solely due to their inability to buff damage, but that said, their only issue is speed.
[ QUOTE ]
This is totally off topic, but any Storm or Trick Arrow Defender that can't solo probably has no clue how to play the sets. Those are two of the stronger soloing sets.
Quite honestly, the only primaries that might have issues soloing quickly are Emp and FF solely due to their inability to buff damage, but that said, their only issue is speed.
[/ QUOTE ]
I really do get a kick when someone tries to tell me I don't know how to play a set because I say something derogatory about it. Tell me, what level is your Storm/Non-Sonic Defender, and how many levels did you solo through??
Storm has too many toggles and runs out of end too quickly. It also only has 1 high end cost resistance debuff power that can't be made perma, and typically doesn't last long enough to defeat an entire spawn. Oh, and no self heal or end recovery.
Trick Arrow only becomes viable after you get Disruption Arrow. Endurance isn't too much of a problem as you don't have any toggles, but with no self heal and the -resistance power late in the set, it's a pain. And let's not forget the sheer uselessness of Entangling Arrow and Flash Arrow, and the stupidly long time it takes to slap down Glue Arrow, Poison Gas Arrow, and Acid Arrow -- that is if you're not already dead halfway thru that chain.
Actually, I've found Empathy to be one of the better soloists, simply because of self healing and recovery buffs. If you don't have to worry about endurance, and can regenerate or heal all your damage, you can just go to town. You have little to no downtime between spawns like other Defenders do. Without debuffs taking on bosses can be tough, but if you stick to heroic you shouldn't encounter any. And a lot if it depends on your secondary. Some are better against bosses than others.
FF is kinda middle of the road. Having only 1 toggle keeps end costs low and provides a decent amount of protection, but unless you pair it with Sonic it's pretty slow. You won't run dry like you will with Storm, Dark, or Rad, but you won't move very quickly either.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is totally off topic, but any Storm or Trick Arrow Defender that can't solo probably has no clue how to play the sets. Those are two of the stronger soloing sets.
Quite honestly, the only primaries that might have issues soloing quickly are Emp and FF solely due to their inability to buff damage, but that said, their only issue is speed.
[/ QUOTE ]
I really do get a kick when someone tries to tell me I don't know how to play a set because I say something derogatory about it. Tell me, what level is your Storm/Non-Sonic Defender, and how many levels did you solo through??
[/ QUOTE ]
I played both TA/Psi and Storm/Energy to reasonable levels. (24+) I deleted them both to make way for other characters, not because they were unreasonable soloers.
Yes, defenders shine in teams. But no group of defender sets is unplayable solo. They may solo too slowly for your tastes or be built poorly for soloing, but every set is more than capable of it. To be so utterly awesome on a team...well, that's the tradeoff you're looking at. Sorry.
[ QUOTE ]
I really do get a kick when someone tries to tell me I don't know how to play a set because I say something derogatory about it. Tell me, what level is your Storm/Non-Sonic Defender, and how many levels did you solo through??
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, my character is 41 and he's Storm/Dark and I soloed him for more than half of those levels.
[ QUOTE ]
Storm has too many toggles and runs out of end too quickly. It also only has 1 high end cost resistance debuff power that can't be made perma, and typically doesn't last long enough to defeat an entire spawn. Oh, and no self heal or end recovery.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, Snowstorm + Hurricane + Steamy Mist are crazy expensive to run. That was sarcasm by the way.
Combine it's AoE -res, -def, slow, knockdown and stacked -recharge, it's not terribly difficult to kill an entire spawn if you have a secondary that does good AoE. Add in Lightning Cloud and Tornado? It become that much easier. Oh yeah, there is that AoE disorient that will stun minions in case you need it.
[ QUOTE ]
Trick Arrow only becomes viable after you get Disruption Arrow. Endurance isn't too much of a problem as you don't have any toggles, but with no self heal and the -resistance power late in the set, it's a pain. And let's not forget the sheer uselessness of Entangling Arrow and Flash Arrow, and the stupidly long time it takes to slap down Glue Arrow, Poison Gas Arrow, and Acid Arrow -- that is if you're not already dead halfway thru that chain.
[/ QUOTE ]
You realize they sped up the animation times right? Also, the main -res power is Acid Arrow; available at lvl12. With slotting it's up every 6-10 seconds. I agree the early levels can be difficult, but if you have problems clearing a spawn after Oil Slick and EMP Arrow become available, sorry, but you need to learn your set a little better.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I've found Empathy to be one of the better soloists, simply because of self healing and recovery buffs. If you don't have to worry about endurance, and can regenerate or heal all your damage, you can just go to town. You have little to no downtime between spawns like other Defenders do. Without debuffs taking on bosses can be tough, but if you stick to heroic you shouldn't encounter any. And a lot if it depends on your secondary. Some are better against bosses than others.
FF is kinda middle of the road. Having only 1 toggle keeps end costs low and provides a decent amount of protection, but unless you pair it with Sonic it's pretty slow. You won't run dry like you will with Storm, Dark, or Rad, but you won't move very quickly either.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not much to say here, I know lots of good players that solo their Emps and FF'ers.
You've made some good points about the FF set so far Poobah, but your points about Defenders not being able to solo are ridiculous. The only people who cannot solo as a Defender are the people that:
1) have no clue how to play their set and/or haven't given it time to develop
2) intentionally gimped themselves for soling by playing some "pure" support character
3) are ADD addled meatheads who can't handle anything less than the leveling speed of Scrappers or whatever FoTM build they get their jollies off of.
Yeah, I gotta say Poobah, everytime I read one of your posts, all that goes through my head is a picture of Yogurt, shouting at the top of this lungs...
Who dares enter the sacred and awesome presence of the everlasting know-it-all?!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is totally off topic, but any Storm or Trick Arrow Defender that can't solo probably has no clue how to play the sets. Those are two of the stronger soloing sets.
Quite honestly, the only primaries that might have issues soloing quickly are Emp and FF solely due to their inability to buff damage, but that said, their only issue is speed.
[/ QUOTE ]
I really do get a kick when someone tries to tell me I don't know how to play a set because I say something derogatory about it. Tell me, what level is your Storm/Non-Sonic Defender, and how many levels did you solo through??
[/ QUOTE ]
I played both TA/Psi and Storm/Energy to reasonable levels. (24+) I deleted them both to make way for other characters, not because they were unreasonable soloers.
Yes, defenders shine in teams. But no group of defender sets is unplayable solo. They may solo too slowly for your tastes or be built poorly for soloing, but every set is more than capable of it. To be so utterly awesome on a team...well, that's the tradeoff you're looking at. Sorry.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yet Tanks can do both. Scrappers can do both. Controllers do more than double the damage of a Defender with AoEs and Containment, get 88% of a Defender's buffs/debuff values, AND 125% of Defender mez values in their secondaries (yes, Controllers can use any mez power in their secondaries better than a Defender's primary). Why do you all accept this imbalance as gospel? Have years of Emmert's tyranny simply bled your souls dry?
Defenders once were very capable soloers. They are no longer. I just want everything to be balanced properly given the current game mechanics, not the mechanics of 4 years ago. I don't think that's a lot to ask.
Defenders were never nerfed. Never. Other ATs were nerfed, and then they were later given bonuses that put them past where they were BEFORE they were nerfed. Defenders have simply not been touched. Does that mean that Defenders are now worse of COMPARATIVELY? Probably, yes. Does that mean that Defenders were NERFED? No, we still operated just as good as WE used to. The only difference being now that other ATs operate better. I can live with that.
We still rock harder than any other superteam when we all get together.
MAJOR UBER EXTRA UPDATE!!!!!!!!
I just sent Castle a PM asking WHY he added damage to Repulsion Bomb. The buff seemed to come out of nowhere and it made no sense to me. I asked him where the reasoning came from, and he responded... Here is his unedited response, which he gave me permission to post:
[ QUOTE ]
Well, the reasoning is simple:
Force Fields has a couple powers which are unpopular, repulsion bomb being one. Of those, Repulsion bomb was the easiest to address, since it already had a good list of options. I started by increasing the damage; which you guys are seeing now. I then changed KB to KD, and stripped Containment bonuses from it -- changes which haven't hit the Training Room yet.
[/ QUOTE ]
You heard it here first, Repulsion Bomb WILL BE KNOCKDOWN!!!!!!!
*does a happy dance*
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but nobody ever said that the Tier 9 power has to be the most powerful. Everybody just assumes that.
Just as an example, Foot Stomp is a very powerful attack, but going by Scrapper sets as a guide, you would find Knockout Blow in that slot.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I understand your point. Foot Stomp get's its tier 9 status not because it does a lot of damage (it doesn't really), it's because it's the only AoE in the set, and is superior to powers like Whirling Hands in both damage, damage mitigation, and size of AoE.
[/ QUOTE ]
TAKING TIER 9s OF SCRAPPERS AS AN EXAMPLE, you would assume Knockout Blow would be the Tier 9. Obviously to a Tanker, an AoE attack doing massive damage and a strong status effect would be more useful for aggro management than a single target attack, and in fact that single target attack comes in MUCH handier coming earlier in the Tanker's progression, so he doesn't have to wait until level 38 to do reasonable ST damage.
For a Brute, however, who can pick up KO Blow at 8, the advantage of being able to get such a strong power early is obvious. Of course, the Brute must also wait until later to get Rage, so he won't get a damage boost until then. Either way, I think you'd be hard pressed to say that Foot Stomp is a better attack than KO Blow, or that given their choice, any Tanker or Brute would skip KO Blow and take Foot Stomp. So the "strongest" power in the set is not necessarily the tier 9.
Likewise, which is the better power, the old Moment of Glory (or even the new one) or Instant Healing? I'm just saying that you don't have to trade Force Bubble's place with some other power just because that power becomes "stronger" than it, or more like the click Tier 9s of other sets. Right now I think it can be argued that Dispersion Bubble is the major power in FF, not Force Bubble.
[ QUOTE ]
What and the huh now? Defenders were the only ones not nerfed by i5 and i6.
This, really, is the reason that Defenders are the most powerful AT--they're still oldschool.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just to correct this statement, Defenders WERE nerfed by ED and the GDN. It just wasn't mentioned as upfront by the devs, so some folks may have missed it. All Defenders had their defensive buffs and debuffs cut by around half, though, just like everyone else. Force Field, of course, did get their Def cut in half. The debuff sets, I believe, got a smaller reduction, but they also got their Enhancements changed from the 100% schedule to the 60% one, so their slotted defense was reduced as well.
ED, of course, dropped the maximum for all powers from 6 Enhancements to 3 Enhancements. Buff and debuff powers were effected the same as everyone else.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really do get a kick when someone tries to tell me I don't know how to play a set because I say something derogatory about it. Tell me, what level is your Storm/Non-Sonic Defender, and how many levels did you solo through??
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, my character is 41 and he's Storm/Dark and I soloed him for more than half of those levels.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now was this back in I1-5? Because after that and I'd have to call you a big fat LIAR. Or someone who enjoys pain and suffering.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Storm has too many toggles and runs out of end too quickly. It also only has 1 high end cost resistance debuff power that can't be made perma, and typically doesn't last long enough to defeat an entire spawn. Oh, and no self heal or end recovery.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, Snowstorm + Hurricane + Steamy Mist are crazy expensive to run. That was sarcasm by the way.
Combine it's AoE -res, -def, slow, knockdown and stacked -recharge, it's not terribly difficult to kill an entire spawn if you have a secondary that does good AoE. Add in Lightning Cloud and Tornado? It become that much easier. Oh yeah, there is that AoE disorient that will stun minions in case you need it.
[/ QUOTE ]
So what you're saying is I need to wait till I get to level 32 before I can solo a Storm Defender, and only if I pick a secondary with lots of AoEs... Uh-huh...
So which powers do I give up so that I can have a travel power, the fitness pool, and all those AoE attacks, cause you have your Stormy taking all but one power. Now do you go with Leadership? Cause as a Defender you should as you get the best values from it. But oh poo, that's another 2 toggles to run... where oh were will I find the endurance to run 5 toggles, an AoE debuff that uses 1/5th of my end, AND attack?
And at level 32 with all those wonderful Storm powers, a travel power, fitness, and leadership, I have room for, lemmeeseee, THREE attacks!!! Wow, how UBER am I??
So what exactly do you do pre-level 20 when you don't have Stamina or SOs? You certainly can't run 3 toggles using 0.57 end/sec (assuming 1 lvl 15 IO end reducer in each), spam Freezing Rain, AND attack. Certainly not with a base recovery of only 1.667
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Trick Arrow only becomes viable after you get Disruption Arrow. Endurance isn't too much of a problem as you don't have any toggles, but with no self heal and the -resistance power late in the set, it's a pain. And let's not forget the sheer uselessness of Entangling Arrow and Flash Arrow, and the stupidly long time it takes to slap down Glue Arrow, Poison Gas Arrow, and Acid Arrow -- that is if you're not already dead halfway thru that chain.
[/ QUOTE ]
You realize they sped up the animation times right? Also, the main -res power is Acid Arrow; available at lvl12. With slotting it's up every 6-10 seconds. I agree the early levels can be difficult, but if you have problems clearing a spawn after Oil Slick and EMP Arrow become available, sorry, but you need to learn your set a little better.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, I have to get halfway thru the game before I can effectively solo? And I'm not sure I would call Acid Arrow the set's "main -res power". Yes, it's available earlier and does more than just -res, which is nice. And it's by no means a bad power (TA already has 2 stinkers, 1 questionable, and 1 that's still borked... I thank God it's a decent power). But it's a very small radius, only 8 feet, lasts only 20 seconds and requires an accuracy check. And though it's easily slottable to recharge before it expires, I don't think it stacks if you cast it again (tho I admit I'm not 100% sure of this -- my guess, knowing the devs, is that only the damage stacks. I don't think I've ever stopped long enough while playing to check to see if the other effects stack).
Disruption Arrow is a much larger AoE, can be slotted for perma, requires no accuracy check, and has a shorter cast time. It's only downside is that it's unmovable. But that shouldn't be a problem if you're a good little TA Defender who knows Glue Arrow always comes first.
And unlike other -res debuffs in other sets that are 30%, both Acid Arrow and Disruption are only 20% each. Which means you really need both to have the same effectiveness that Sonic, Dark, and Rad get in just one power (I left out Storm because Freezing Rain is not permable -- all the others are). Well actually with both you're actually 10% better, so in some ways it kinda balances out I guess.
[ QUOTE ]
You've made some good points about the FF set so far Poobah, but your points about Defenders not being able to solo are ridiculous. The only people who cannot solo as a Defender are the people that:
1) have no clue how to play their set and/or haven't given it time to develop
2) intentionally gimped themselves for soling by playing some "pure" support character
3) are ADD addled meatheads who can't handle anything less than the leveling speed of Scrappers or whatever FoTM build they get their jollies off of.
[/ QUOTE ]
I admit I am sometimes a bit heavy-handed when I combine "Defender" and "solo" in the same sentence. But I still don't think that any AT should require "time to develop" before they can solo. Controllers were like that for the longest time until they got their pets. They were given Containment offset the loss of control and to give them better damage so that they were less dependent upon the pet. But somewhere along the line Defenders wound up in the same boat.
I don't believe I've ever come straight out and said "Defenders can't solo" (and if you can find a quote of me saying that, well, I was being over dramatic). If I say something to that effect it's usually followed by a qualifier like "for [censored]", or "worth a damn", "to save their lives", etc.
I have said on a number of occasions that although I think it's possible for any Defender to solo, it's an unrewarding and unpleasant experience for most, and wasn't always like this. Some combinations of sets are better at it than others, but I still don't think any are all that good at it, at least not enough that I find it fun.
It does get easier as you get higher in level, again, depending upon the sets. I have a lvl 37 Dark/Rad Defender who is not too bad at soloing. As long as I don't raise the difficulty too high he rarely ever comes close to dying, but even with Tar Patch it takes a long time to kill things, and he often runs out of end.
It can be done, but it's not fun, unless you enjoy slow and laborious. And I keep coming back to the same two things: the imbalanced AT modifier and the ineffectiveness of Vigilance.
If the AT modifiers were rebalanced taking inherent damage buffs into account, Defenders would get a well-needed base damage increase of ~20%. This would put them back to 65% of Blaster damage when you include Defiance.
And if you changed Vigilance so that you got an endurance discount based upon the number of foes near you instead of the health of your teammates, then you'd get use out of it both solo and on teams. Basing it on the number of foes is appropriately thematic, and doesn't reward a crappy Defender while penalizing a really good one. Nor does it favor reactive sets like Empathy versus proactive sets like FF. And I think as we learned with Defiance 1.0, anything based on health is just not a good idea. Hell, even if they left Vigilance exactly as is and just added the Defender's health into the mix, it would still be grossly imbalanced, but at least you'd get to use it solo.
Kheldians and Tanks are the only other ATs that get inherents that are useless while solo. For Tanks it's no big deal as they don't need aggro control while solo. But it would be nice if they did something for Kheldians.
I'm not saying that soloists should get some kind of special benefit, but they shouldn't be penalized either. And right now, Defenders and Kheldians both get penalized for soloing.
Y'know, I just thought of something. I have 2 accounts. I should roll up a dummy toon and have him team up with one of my Defenders. Let him die at the beginning of a battle, and I should get a nice 56% endurance discount from Vigilance. Hmm... I'd be using 1/2 normal endurance, but would be fighting 2x the foes. An interesting test, something I just might play around with on the test server where I can see the numbers.
[ QUOTE ]
I have said on a number of occasions that although I think it's possible for any Defender to solo, it's an unrewarding and unpleasant experience for most, and wasn't always like this. Some combinations of sets are better at it than others, but I still don't think any are all that good at it, at least not enough that I find it fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is the biggest issue, not that Defenders as an Archetype are unable to solo, but that specific POWER SETS are unable to solo. Or at least make it so tedious that it becomes a frustrating experience for the player.
By comparison, there are no Power Sets for Tankers or Scrappers that are unable to solo. They may have more or less capability than others, Regen may be considered uber, and SR somewhat slower to level, but your ability as a Scrapper is not that much changed by your Power Set. You can solo as a Scrapper because you are a Scrapper, not because you are a Regen Scrapper.
Likewise, when Controllers had trouble levelling to 32, prior to Containment, they ALL had trouble soloing to 32. No Power Sets specifically were easy to solo. Kin might have given you a bit of a boost, but with only weak attacks for Kin to boost, it wasn't really enough. You in essense had to build your Controller as something else, take attacks from the Power Pool and fight much like a Dominator, in order to solo. (And I can say this for sure because I did this)
Once Containment came out, it didn't give any specific advantage to any Power Set or another. Rad or Kin was the best choice for a soloing Controller, but Containment still provided the majority of the damage boost, and even an Earth/FF could solo. Maybe not well, but by using some of the tactics of the early days and picking up Pool attacks it could be done.
Now, Rad and Kin Defenders are NOT difficult to solo. I don't know where you could get such an impression, if that is in fact what you are saying. Dark can be somewhat slow, but I've soloed a D3, and I know it's possible. It's slow, but no slower than playing a Tanker. I've never played Storm, but my understanding is that it is VERY strong solo, possibly even stronger than it is on a team, because of the problems most teams have with knockback. Solo, you can use knockback to your heart's content, because the only person you have to make happy is you.
Trick Arrow, eh, if you want to call that hard to solo, then go ahead. I disagree, but then, I haven't gotten far enough to say one way or another. I suppose I don't have to have played Rad or Kin either, though, to believe those who say that they are extremely soloable. TA seems to have a reputation of being somewhat weak. But it did get a boost lately.
That leaves FF, Sonic, and Empathy. FF is what this thread is about. Sonic, IMO, is not really a soloable set, it has some strengths that FF doesn't, but it lacks some things FF gives you. My own experience found it tedious. I've never played Empathy, but my understanding of the set is that it's going to be fairly hard to solo. I've heard some people say they do very well with it, but they may be either overestimating the ease of it, or there could be something to do with the Endurance recovery powers which somehow compensates.
Now, I, personally, would like to see those three sets get buffs to make them more soloable. Maybe TA as well. But there are those who accept the role of those sets as "support only", including, according to some posts I've read, some of the devs. Maybe that'll change, and maybe it won't, but really, I feel that soloability should be based on Archetype, and not Power Set. All I can do is try and recommend changes based on that.
Wow! Now my Ninja/FF can take it! I took Replusion Bomb once and hated it. The recharge is way too long for its use.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
maybe I'm building badly or a lousy player - though I think I'm just average and with slow reflexes, but a lot of knowledge of the game - but I can't solo very well with my defenders, even though they're the AT I play most.
I can't manage even a heroic mission versus mobs that stun or hold. If I miss a few too many times in a fight, I run out of endurance and can't protect myself anymore.
I take attacks on my defenders, and I slot them, but, let's take my level 50 kinetic defender for example. She solos about as well as a level 11 scrapper, which means, she can usually do fine in a heroic mission but an EB or a couple of +1 groups too close together and she dies. Or being held without enough breakfrees (and I don't count it as "can solo" if you have to stop in the middle of a mission and go to Pocket D to buy inspirations).
My storm defender couldn't even solo that well with her previous build, but I respec'd her and figured out a strategy for her and now I can solo at that level 11 scrapper (scrapper with no protection from mez and training enhances) by debuffing the heck out of their to hit - hurricane and a couple of dark blast cones. So they miss her a lot. That's her only defense. (storm defender is now level 33, she was created back in 2004)
The problem is that defenders attacks do so little damage, even fully slotted, it takes them much more than twice as long to defeat an opponent than a blaster. And they have powers with more self protection, but depending on the primary, that can vary and be problematic taking too much endurance.
Prior to getting stamina, many defenders simply can't defeat opponents that are resistant to their damage types. They run out of endurance before doing enough damage. The enemy recovers hp faster than they recover endurance to go on attacking. This is because the powers the defender uses to help themself cost a lot more than scrappers self protection powers - because they are really team protection powers. But when soloing the cost is the same as protecting the team - higher even due to lack of defiance - even though the use of the power is much lower. Look at the amount of self healing an empathy defender gets vs a regeneration scrapper, per endurance point used from healing aura vs reconstruction.
So, sure defenders 'can' solo. but it's no fun to me. I like playing defenders in teams. I do have some of that 'add scrapper soloer' mentality, that's why my first 50 was a kinetic defender - she speeds up entire teams' play so I could play at the speed I enjoyed.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really do get a kick when someone tries to tell me I don't know how to play a set because I say something derogatory about it. Tell me, what level is your Storm/Non-Sonic Defender, and how many levels did you solo through??
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, my character is 41 and he's Storm/Dark and I soloed him for more than half of those levels.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now was this back in I1-5? Because after that and I'd have to call you a big fat LIAR. Or someone who enjoys pain and suffering.
[/ QUOTE ]
Go read my guide. Hell, post a new topic asking people if they can solo with their Stormers. Storm is one of the most solo friendly Defender primaries there are. The general mayhem and debuffs should be more than enough to protect you. Dark by the way, is probably the most synergistic combo with Storm out of all secondaries.
A I've already said, go read my guide or ask The Mighty Storm now that she's back.
[ QUOTE ]
So, sure defenders 'can' solo. but it's no fun to me. I like playing defenders in teams. I do have some of that 'add scrapper soloer' mentality, that's why my first 50 was a kinetic defender - she speeds up entire teams' play so I could play at the speed I enjoyed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, you do have to build somewhat for soloing, you can't just take a Defender build for team support and go soloing on Unstoppable. Likewise, if you build for solo, you might not be as good at team support. There are advantages, of course, chances are if you're build for solo that means you have damage buffs, and those buffs will boost your team's damage too. But they might not have the defense they'd have otherwise.
Then again, that's true of any Archetype. You can build a Tanker or Controller that is more support oriented. You might be able to solo on occasion, but you can still run into situations where you need a team. Even a Blaster can run into that problem, and that's with an AT which really doesn't have an option for team support.
On the other hand, it can be a matter of experience. When you solo a Defender all the time, you learn what it takes to solo. Your fingers begin to react automatically to situations you're used to. I've had real problems recently because I've started teaming on a regular basis, and the truth is, I just don't have a lot of experience with that. I often find myself flailing because my response to certain situations isn't instinctive yet.
[ QUOTE ]
MAJOR UBER EXTRA UPDATE!!!!!!!!
I just sent Castle a PM asking WHY he added damage to Repulsion Bomb. The buff seemed to come out of nowhere and it made no sense to me. I asked him where the reasoning came from, and he responded... Here is his unedited response, which he gave me permission to post:
[ QUOTE ]
Well, the reasoning is simple:
Force Fields has a couple powers which are unpopular, repulsion bomb being one. Of those, Repulsion bomb was the easiest to address, since it already had a good list of options. I started by increasing the damage; which you guys are seeing now. I then changed KB to KD, and stripped Containment bonuses from it -- changes which haven't hit the Training Room yet.
[/ QUOTE ]
You heard it here first, Repulsion Bomb WILL BE KNOCKDOWN!!!!!!!
*does a happy dance*
[/ QUOTE ]
That right there just made a FF/* character for me. 
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders were never nerfed. Never. Other ATs were nerfed, and then they were later given bonuses that put them past where they were BEFORE they were nerfed. Defenders have simply not been touched. Does that mean that Defenders are now worse of COMPARATIVELY? Probably, yes. Does that mean that Defenders were NERFED? No, we still operated just as good as WE used to. The only difference being now that other ATs operate better. I can live with that.
We still rock harder than any other superteam when we all get together.
[/ QUOTE ]
OK, first off I never said Defenders were nerfed, at least not specifically as an AT. We suffered like all other ATs thru GDN and ED, which were both major nerfs to everyone, not just Defenders.
So in that regard, yes, we were nerfed along with everyone else.
But I've been through all this before, and I don't want to rehash it again. Everyone was nerfed. Critters were buffed. And then most ATs were buffed with an inherent ability that increased their damage output. Some ATs, like Tanks and Blasters, got a straight, across the board base damage increase. Some ATs have even had their inherent abilities buffed multiple times (yes, I'm talking to you Dominators).
What did Defenders get? Vigilance. Translation: nothing. Other than some minor additions and/or changes to a few powers here and there (not all good, mind you -- some would be classified as a nerf), Defenders got nothing.
So what do you call it when you nerf all ATs and then start buffing all but one of them back up? A reverse-nerf?
So yeah, we're operating at the same level as we were after ED -- massively reduced buffs and debuffs and 50% less damage.
And while critters and other ATs have been repeatedly buffed since, we've been virtually untouched.
Call it what you will, but it's still not right.
Now maybe I could live with it if critters weren't buffed and given all sorts of mez and status effects, more HPs, greater resistances, more damage, etc. But they were. The game was made harder, and everyone besides Defenders were buffed to compensate. How is that not some kind of nerf?
[ QUOTE ]
What did Defenders get? Vigilance. Translation: nothing. Other than some minor additions and/or changes to a few powers here and there (not all good, mind you -- some would be classified as a nerf), Defenders got nothing.
[/ QUOTE ]
I do agree that Vigilance is not sufficient when compared to other Inherents. So in that sense, yes, Defenders have not been brought back up to the same level as other Archetypes.
However, I'm not sure that the Defender Inherent needs to boost their damage. The Tanker Inherent does not boost damage. (In fact, it's the only one that doesn't, other than Vigilance) There are those who claim that Gauntlet is useless, or not enough, but I feel that it DOES do the job that is set for it, considerably better than any other Archetype can. So while it may not do what we want it to do as an Inherent, it does seem to be up to a level with them.
Vigilance needs something, but I'm not sure what. And honestly, there are deeper issues with FF (and other sets) that an Inherent can't solve. We want an Inherent to reduce imbalance between Power Sets, not increase it.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have said on a number of occasions that although I think it's possible for any Defender to solo, it's an unrewarding and unpleasant experience for most, and wasn't always like this. Some combinations of sets are better at it than others, but I still don't think any are all that good at it, at least not enough that I find it fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is the biggest issue, not that Defenders as an Archetype are unable to solo, but that specific POWER SETS are unable to solo. Or at least make it so tedious that it becomes a frustrating experience for the player.
By comparison, there are no Power Sets for Tankers or Scrappers that are unable to solo. They may have more or less capability than others, Regen may be considered uber, and SR somewhat slower to level, but your ability as a Scrapper is not that much changed by your Power Set. You can solo as a Scrapper because you are a Scrapper, not because you are a Regen Scrapper.
Likewise, when Controllers had trouble levelling to 32, prior to Containment, they ALL had trouble soloing to 32. No Power Sets specifically were easy to solo. Kin might have given you a bit of a boost, but with only weak attacks for Kin to boost, it wasn't really enough. You in essense had to build your Controller as something else, take attacks from the Power Pool and fight much like a Dominator, in order to solo. (And I can say this for sure because I did this)
Once Containment came out, it didn't give any specific advantage to any Power Set or another. Rad or Kin was the best choice for a soloing Controller, but Containment still provided the majority of the damage boost, and even an Earth/FF could solo. Maybe not well, but by using some of the tactics of the early days and picking up Pool attacks it could be done.
Now, Rad and Kin Defenders are NOT difficult to solo. I don't know where you could get such an impression, if that is in fact what you are saying. Dark can be somewhat slow, but I've soloed a D3, and I know it's possible. It's slow, but no slower than playing a Tanker. I've never played Storm, but my understanding is that it is VERY strong solo, possibly even stronger than it is on a team, because of the problems most teams have with knockback. Solo, you can use knockback to your heart's content, because the only person you have to make happy is you.
Trick Arrow, eh, if you want to call that hard to solo, then go ahead. I disagree, but then, I haven't gotten far enough to say one way or another. I suppose I don't have to have played Rad or Kin either, though, to believe those who say that they are extremely soloable. TA seems to have a reputation of being somewhat weak. But it did get a boost lately.
That leaves FF, Sonic, and Empathy. FF is what this thread is about. Sonic, IMO, is not really a soloable set, it has some strengths that FF doesn't, but it lacks some things FF gives you. My own experience found it tedious. I've never played Empathy, but my understanding of the set is that it's going to be fairly hard to solo. I've heard some people say they do very well with it, but they may be either overestimating the ease of it, or there could be something to do with the Endurance recovery powers which somehow compensates.
Now, I, personally, would like to see those three sets get buffs to make them more soloable. Maybe TA as well. But there are those who accept the role of those sets as "support only", including, according to some posts I've read, some of the devs. Maybe that'll change, and maybe it won't, but really, I feel that soloability should be based on Archetype, and not Power Set. All I can do is try and recommend changes based on that.
[/ QUOTE ]
You make some very good points here that I agree with. My biggest issue with soloing Defenders is two fold: you don't do enough damage to efficiently defeat foes, and don't have enough endurance to fuel your buffs/debuffs and attack at the same time.
Vigilance could help alleviate the endurance problem if it, at the very least, allowed the Defender's own health to be used in the calculation.
So by the nature of these two issues, it's easy to understand why sets with low end usage, damage buffs, resistance debuffs, +end/+recovery and healing/+regen are going to be the most effective at soloing. Anything that lets you do more damage using less endurance is going to make it easier for a Defender to solo.
And your secondary is just as important as your primary, at least as far as soloing is concerned.
But I think the fact that you have to pick and choose "optimal" sets if you want to solo a Defender clearly indicates there is a problem with the AT.
Just like there was with Controllers until they got Containment. Interesting to note, of all pre-Containment trollers, Illusion was generally considered the easiest to solo because you got perma and multiple Phantom Armies at lvl 18, and back then they did a considerable amount of damage. All other trollers were by and large teammate-only until they got their pet at 32, which again were very powerful and stackable; you could easily have 2-3 Singularities or Jacks out, or a small army of Imps.
After all control abilities were nerfed and Trollers got Containment, all the pets were drastically nerfed and limited to one set at a time. And because of ED, PA is no longer permable.
And because the Illusion set has no fast recharging AoE mez power that establishes containment, they went from one of the easiest sets to solo to one of, if not the, hardest. How's that for a kick in [censored]?
But I digress. The Defender AT needs two things: an across the board damage buff and a version of Vigilance that works for the soloist.
Take care of those two things and all Defenders regardless of sets should be able to solo a lot better.
[ QUOTE ]
MAJOR UBER EXTRA UPDATE!!!!!!!!
I just sent Castle a PM asking WHY he added damage to Repulsion Bomb. The buff seemed to come out of nowhere and it made no sense to me. I asked him where the reasoning came from, and he responded... Here is his unedited response, which he gave me permission to post:
[ QUOTE ]
Well, the reasoning is simple:
Force Fields has a couple powers which are unpopular, repulsion bomb being one. Of those, Repulsion bomb was the easiest to address, since it already had a good list of options. I started by increasing the damage; which you guys are seeing now. I then changed KB to KD, and stripped Containment bonuses from it -- changes which haven't hit the Training Room yet.
[/ QUOTE ]
You heard it here first, Repulsion Bomb WILL BE KNOCKDOWN!!!!!!!
*does a happy dance*
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm... veeerrryyyy iiiiiinteresting...
Would definitely be worth a test run to check it out once it's up. I just hope it's not nerfed in some other way to make up for the change, like increasing the end cost or recharge time, or removing the disorient.
[ QUOTE ]
maybe I'm building badly or a lousy player - though I think I'm just average and with slow reflexes, but a lot of knowledge of the game - but I can't solo very well with my defenders, even though they're the AT I play most.
I can't manage even a heroic mission versus mobs that stun or hold. If I miss a few too many times in a fight, I run out of endurance and can't protect myself anymore.
I take attacks on my defenders, and I slot them, but, let's take my level 50 kinetic defender for example. She solos about as well as a level 11 scrapper, which means, she can usually do fine in a heroic mission but an EB or a couple of +1 groups too close together and she dies. Or being held without enough breakfrees (and I don't count it as "can solo" if you have to stop in the middle of a mission and go to Pocket D to buy inspirations).
My storm defender couldn't even solo that well with her previous build, but I respec'd her and figured out a strategy for her and now I can solo at that level 11 scrapper (scrapper with no protection from mez and training enhances) by debuffing the heck out of their to hit - hurricane and a couple of dark blast cones. So they miss her a lot. That's her only defense. (storm defender is now level 33, she was created back in 2004)
The problem is that defenders attacks do so little damage, even fully slotted, it takes them much more than twice as long to defeat an opponent than a blaster. And they have powers with more self protection, but depending on the primary, that can vary and be problematic taking too much endurance.
Prior to getting stamina, many defenders simply can't defeat opponents that are resistant to their damage types. They run out of endurance before doing enough damage. The enemy recovers hp faster than they recover endurance to go on attacking. This is because the powers the defender uses to help themself cost a lot more than scrappers self protection powers - because they are really team protection powers. But when soloing the cost is the same as protecting the team - higher even due to lack of defiance - even though the use of the power is much lower. Look at the amount of self healing an empathy defender gets vs a regeneration scrapper, per endurance point used from healing aura vs reconstruction.
So, sure defenders 'can' solo. but it's no fun to me. I like playing defenders in teams. I do have some of that 'add scrapper soloer' mentality, that's why my first 50 was a kinetic defender - she speeds up entire teams' play so I could play at the speed I enjoyed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow... thank you for taking the time to chime in. It's nice to know that it's just not me.
[ QUOTE ]
But I digress. The Defender AT needs two things: an across the board damage buff and a version of Vigilance that works for the soloist.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I would say that the damage buff needs to be dependent on the Primary, not across the board. For one thing, starting with Sets that don't HAVE one would be a good start...
(Going off the topic, but I wonder if it would be possible to have an Inherent that somehow adapted to the Primary. Like for instance if you have a lot of offense like Kin, it gives you defense, and obviously with FF it would boost your damage. Maybe base it on what kind of powers you use. Just a thought...)
You're on the money about what is needed for the soloist, though. The Endurance issue is really the same as the damage one. Defenders use so much Endurance because their attacks are so inefficient. Plus, they have to use damage boost powers on top of that, which uses up even more Endurance.
On the other hand, lots of Defender Primaries have either Endurance regeneration or a way to recover Endurance.
Really, the biggest issue with Defenders is that more than any other Archetype, it is dependent on its powers. It has damage buffs that can make it do Blaster-level damage, so it has to have low base damage. It has lots of powers that enable it to avoid attacks and reduce damage, so it is very robust. It has powers that increase its attack rate and recharge Endurance, so it has to have a high Endurance cost. In a way, it's like Masterminds, that have to have weak base abilities to compensate for their henchmen.
The problem comes when you are missing some of those tools. Either because they aren't available, or because you didn't pick up that power. I wouldn't begin to guess how horrid it would be trying to solo a D3 without Tar Patch. (or even without Tar Patch 3 slotted for recharge)
I'm not sure there's a way to fix that without dramatically changing the Archetype.
[ QUOTE ]
Well I for one would sure love to see a Dark/Sonic Defender solo an AV or GM without having to use an entire tray of blue skittles...
[/ QUOTE ]
Even if you can't afford IO's to boost your recovery, the IO system still frees up slots that you can use to slot End Reduc all over the place.
[ QUOTE ]
But they can't solo for [censored].
[/ QUOTE ]
Speak for yourself, my Rad/Sonic has been able to solo Invincible since level 6--and without using blue candy since around level 30.
[ QUOTE ]
by and large Defenders can't solo worth a damn.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you don't try to, you won't succeed. My 33 Emp/Rad has three attacks, but she is very good on a team. My FF/Dark is okay in both situations. Psynado's Storm/Psy is quite impressive all around. It just depends on your build.
[ QUOTE ]
And as I've stated this before numerous times, it's mostly due to AT modifiers that have not changed in 4 years, even though 9 out of 11 ATs have gotten inherent abilities that buff damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
What and the huh now? Defenders were the only ones not nerfed by i5 and i6.
This, really, is the reason that Defenders are the most powerful AT--they're still oldschool.
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders do significantly less damage than they should because of this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Debatable. This is not CoV, we are not all wannabe Blasters.
[ QUOTE ]
Factor in that Vigilance is completely borked and does nothing for you at all...
[/ QUOTE ]
Fixed it for you. Anyway, you have to take it in context: "Negligence" was added only as a formality, since the other 11 AT's all had inherents at that point. It's not really supposed to be a buff.