Schattendrachen

[ QUOTE ]
You mean people take other travel powers besides Super Jump? Wierd.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, unfortunately jumping does not necessarily fit concept for everyone. =p

[ QUOTE ]
Fly needs to be slower than the others... it's the only one that you really don't need to be active to use (auto pilot)
I don't neccessarily think that it needs to be substantially slower, but if it were as fast as the risk and attention required by the others? who would bother with any of the others?
Teleport actually is extremely hurt by lagging. A lot of the time I find myself hitting the ground before my next port finishes animating because of the lag, I often am falling when I pop back in.

I will agree that hover is humiliatingly slow. Seeing the mundane NPC pedestrians walk faster than you hover around? and the speed makes it impractical for anything beyond hover/sniping (and using fly between mobs)

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll note that I agree that fly needs to be slower than the others, provided that both are similarly enhanced. What I'm saying is that the top end of fly should meet up with the bottom end of superspeed (since the midpoint of superjump is at about the bottom of superspeed, and that speed increase should put us into the range that it you might not be competitive in a race with the superjump or superspeed guys, but you can at least pretend that you aren't standing still when they go by) and that flight should require the same number of enhancements to reach cap, instead of four times as many.

Oh, and I, too, think a vehicle set of some kind (even if it's a rocket powered unicycle) would be cool, but I'm not sure how you differentiate it from superspeed on the travel power.

[ QUOTE ]
Let me ask you this, Blue Collar:

What should FLIGHT be faster THAN?

And why?

I mean, if it was faster than teleport... no one would take teleport. Except maybe for concept.

If it was faster than SJ, well, people would still take SJ for concept and the other powers in its pool, but why should the characters who might accidentally get thrown into a mob or who might miss their landing and take a load of fall damage be further penalized by also having what would then be the slowest travel power in the game?

If Fly was faster than SS... well, damn. Safe, vertical travel or ground-based and weaving between buildings and getting lost all the time? What would YOU pick? Especially given that the speed pool would then only have ONE good power: Hasten.

Don't get me wrong, i'd LOVE to see Fly's speed increased so that i don't have to 3-slot Fly and Swift or get buffed JUST to reach the cap, which is a really lousy cap, but I just can't see any reason to make flight faster than any of the other travel powers.

Perhaps as a compromise, i think maybe having SS, and keeping it active, should boost your flight speed. Obviously, you drain more endurance doing that, which i think is a fair trade-off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, your choice of travel powers really *should* come entirely down to concept, but still. We are stuck with the limitation that SJ lacks the safety that Flight has, and SS while keeping the safety (being stealthed while running and being out of range before they can attack if they happen to see you run them over) lacks vertical mobility.

As far as what flight should be faster than, do you consider it fair that an unenhanced SS is noticeably faster than a capped Fly?

What about SJ with a single SO, versus Fly w/3 SOs and Swift w/3 SOs?

What about the fact that it only takes 2 SOs to cap SS and SJ, but slotting both Fly and Swift with several SOs to get there for Fly?

How about that you need only take a total of two powers to SS or SJ at capped speed (SS/SJ and a prereq) versus needing a third power to do so with Fly (Fly, it's prereq, and swift), as you can't slot Fly itself with enough bonus to reach it's own cap?

As far as SS boosting flight, unless it boosted it by the speed you get from SS on the ground (ignoring the normal flight cap in the process), who would take SS/Fly over taking both SS & SJ? The SJ/SS route you would be much faster for an equal number of powers.

Fly needs a speed boost and an adjustment to how it scales. Specifically, it needs to be in the same general league as the other travel powers, although it should probably have the lowest cap of them (but a cap somewhere around where you aren't so slow that people with unenhanced travel powers can still outrace you). It also needs it's scaling adjusted so that it can be capped in the same number of enhancements as SS/SJ.

Hover also needs to stop being the only travel power that makes you go slower than base, non-sprinting run speed. Something as simple as removing the debuff to fly speed from the power would do it. It would still be weaker than Combat Jumping (since Combat Jumping increases your ability to Jump from base numbers), while seeming less like a punishment for daring to want a superhero that can fly.

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, I don't meet many people who don't take both SS and SJ. When you put the two together, you have just as much "straight line" manuverability as fly. Even if there's a building you can't jump straight over, you can run around it. There's literally no obstacle that slows you down going "as the crow flies" from one point to the other unless you're just not paying attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me get this straight, you are suggesting that taking 2 powers from the Flight pool be equivalent to taking 4 powers between the Leaping and Super Speed pools?

[ QUOTE ]
Secondly, flight, as a power pool, pales in comparison to both Speed and Leaping. Speed gives Hasten and Acrobatics, Leaping gives Combat Jumping.. Flight gives Hover's anti-knockback and.. uh.. a very situational group fly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Acrobatics is in Leaping, first off. Other than actually making you go *faster/higher* than your base numbers, Combat Jumping is a lot like Hover. A weaker version of the normal travel power that doesn't suppress and has a DEF buff. Hasten and Acrobatics are very nice powers. Hasten is taken by a lot of players because of how powerful it is, and Acrobatics is great for avoiding being knocked around or Held as often. In comparison, Air Superiority is good for melee characters, as it gets the target somewhere they (or their team) can reach it better. Hover is like Combat Jumping, except that it's the only power in a travel pool that makes you move more slowly. Again, removing the penalty to base fly speed when using Hover would make it tolerable.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Something like base speed 56.9, max speed 94.5? At that point, it maxxes out at unenhanced SS, it's still slower than everything else, and it should only take two slots to cap speed (though it needs the full benefit from both to cap, whereas SS and SJ only need 43% and 56% total enhancement).

Follow with a simple tweak to hover -- hover no longer debuffs your base flight speed (meaning you would fly at the same speed as your unenhanced run speed, as base run and base fly speeds are identical). That way, Hover is not the only "travel power" that actually makes you slower.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should fly be "slower than everything else"? Because you can just fly in a straight line unobstructed? That's the same logic Blizzard used when making their first flying mount in WoW's expansion slower than the cheaper epic ground mount; I disagreed with it there and I disagree with the premise here.

First of all, I don't meet many people who don't take both SS and SJ. When you put the two together, you have just as much "straight line" manuverability as fly. Even if there's a building you can't jump straight over, you can run around it. There's literally no obstacle that slows you down going "as the crow flies" from one point to the other unless you're just not paying attention.

Secondly, flight, as a power pool, pales in comparison to both Speed and Leaping. Speed gives Hasten and Acrobatics, Leaping gives Combat Jumping.. Flight gives Hover's anti-knockback and.. uh.. a very situational group fly.

To summarize, SS and SJ are superior travel powers, speed wise, and both pools provide excellent synergy with other powers whereas Fly is slower and the pool provides little to no synergy with other powers. Doesn't this strike anyone else as being just, well, wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fly should be slower than everything else as it minimizes risk while maximizing mobility. SJ can land you in nasties and gives less control than flight, as well as less vertical movement and control. SS gives you the highest speed, but with an absolute lack of vertical mobility.

If you look at my numbers, I used base SS speed for capped flight speed, which should be fast enough not to be a burden compared to choosing other travel powers, then set the base speed to the number that two enhancements would put it at cap (just as SS and SJ do), as opposed to the 8 required currently.

I also requested that Hover not remain the only "travel" power that makes you move slower. The most reasonable answer to that is to have it let you fly at "base flight speed", which is your unenhanced running speed, still modified by swift of course, since swift buffs both run and flight speeds.

It maintains the general rule that increased vertical mobility = reduced lateral mobility (hence SS is faster than SJ is faster than flight) but doesn't make flight suck nearly so much. A capped Fly would be a base SS or a partly enhanced SJ.

I figure it's a better answer that wanting things to work in the other direction, and demanding a -jump -run component to Combat Jumping. =p

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Quinz, I totally forgot about Axe and Mace for Brutes...cant imagine why ...and I dont know about you, but mental manipulation sounds like a totally new set to me, and infact will include a brand new power just for those poor, beleagured heros who are continuely screwed by the devs. So yeah, I guess as it stands its 5 to 5. I think I still made my point

[/ QUOTE ]

Mental Manipulation, like Electric Assault will be a new set pieced together from parts of existing sets, but will also have one completely new power (likely because there wasn't an appropriate power from Psychic Assault or Mind Control to fit a particular spot in the "template" they use to design powersets). Essentially, arguing that Mental Manipulation is more of a new set than Electric Assault basically comes down to there being a wider array of electric powers in the "Melee + Ranged attacks" pool than psychic powers in the "Melee + Soft controls" pool to build mental manip from. Essentially, you are [censored] because you want to be a victim.

[ QUOTE ]
Hey all,

This idea popped into my head recently and so far I can't find it suggested anywhere else so I'll throw it out here:

My understanding (which could be totally wrong) is that each power has it's own unique code where all the FX, animations and so forth are set out. The difference between 'weapon' powers and 'power' powers is a section of code that calls up a weapon model and slots it into the power animation attached to the player's character.

The recent breakthrough in weapon customization now enables us to choose alternative weapon models that can be used in the various power animations, without otherwise altering the original animation.

This made me wonder how difficult it would be to add the 'weapon code' to non-weapon power sets. Thus adding weapon/equipment/talisman models to these powersets that could then be customised through the existing weapons customisation system. It is still NOT power customisation but the popularity of weapon customisation would transfer across to other powersets quite well I think.

For example one Fire Blaster could select rayguns or wristcannon models attached to their hands as part of their power animations that would suit a tech/science origin while another player could choose from various talismans, glowing glyphs, magic rings or even a wand or staff as the source of their power.

Of course I am probably overlooking dozens of programming difficulties that the Devs have already investigated and there would be a significant amount of art/design resources required to create the new 'weapon' models so I'm not expecting this overnight, but I'd be interested to find out if it was at all feasible for a future issue.

What do you guys think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Presuming the FX for each power aren't hardcoded, I don't see why they couldn't allow some degree of customization (along the lines of weapon customization). I'm sure we could think of at least 2-3 "styles" for each type of power, for example a hard-lined Raven-style variant for Dark as opposed to the default fuzzy FX.

While we're talking about minor graphical changes, I'd kill for a black aura that both looked black and wasn't full body (read, not body tendrils).

[ QUOTE ]
Dear Devs,

I understand you guys get a lot of crazy requests for travel powers, but that's due to the lack of balance between them. Players should be able to take any of the powers for their characters because it fits their concept instead of which they find less annoying. I understand you guys worry that everyone will take Fly, but if you let each power shine instead of giving them almost all of them their own gimps, this won't be a problem.

Fly
- Base Speed: 49.7 fps
- Max Speed: 86 fps (5 slotted Fly and 3 slotted Swift)
The slotting necessary to achieve the cap is not an error. I've checked it with Mids' Hero Designer. No one should have to put that many slots into two different powers to hit their speed cap. Like Super Jump and Super Speed, it needs to be able to attain it's cap in no more than two slots. Personally, I believe Fly needs to able to achieve Super Speed's base speed at it's max, but AT LEAST fix that. I mean c'mon, 6 slots?!

[/ QUOTE ]

Something like base speed 56.9, max speed 94.5? At that point, it maxxes out at unenhanced SS, it's still slower than everything else, and it should only take two slots to cap speed (though it needs the full benefit from both to cap, whereas SS and SJ only need 43% and 56% total enhancement).

Follow with a simple tweak to hover -- hover no longer debuffs your base flight speed (meaning you would fly at the same speed as your unenhanced run speed, as base run and base fly speeds are identical). That way, Hover is not the only "travel power" that actually makes you slower.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This whole argument about whether Defenders need more damage being broken down into semantics is mind boggling to say the least.

[/ QUOTE ]
...Yeah. I agree that Defenders could use a bit more damage, but expecting them to solo as well as *anything* else, even post-GDN Controllers, is something I don't agree with. (Previously, I'd have said that Controllers should have been worse, and sometimes they were.)

I think Vigilance should give you endurance reduction (and maybe even a small +Damage) when your team is at HIGH health. That would be both functional and logical, unlike the current (what am I going to do on my FF, "Bubble Faster?" Or is Force Bubble supposed to have prohibitive endurance use?). Still, as it currently, is, I consider that Negligence probably wasn't intended to be useful, and is therefore doing its job nicely.

(Now I'm just trying to figure out how Storm/Elec is having trouble with bosses. Shouldn't the whole "knocked down in a corner with no accuracy or endurance" thing help with that? I'm no fan of Elec for Defenders, but other than being slightly slower than other sets it's not THAT weak.)

[/ QUOTE ]

The question is, where do you feel they should land? Prior to all the global nerfs, defenders had roughly 2/3 the damage of a blaster (the idea being that the superior buff/debuff options made up the slack).

After the global nerfs, the introduction of inherents, etc, up through now, Defenders now do roughly 1/3 as much damage as Blasters (including their bonus damage for Defiance as part of their damage). Corrupters, OTOH do roughly 3/4 the damage of Blasters, with only a small penalty on their buff/debuff powers compared to Defenders.

I do find it odd that you feel Controllers should be better soloists than Defenders, however. Consider that up until Containment they were literally the worst soloists, either until 32 and their pet or up the entire scale (after the pet nerf but before containment).

Personally, I think simply increasing our base damage up to where we'd be on par with our position relative to blasters from back when and we'd be fine. We'd do only a bit less damage than Corrupters, but then Corrupter buffs/debuffs are only a bit less powerful than ours in the first place.

Vigilance could probably use some kind of change, as having an inherent based both on player HP (like Defiance was changed from) and on how poorly you are doing your job (weak/dead party members are not a sign of a great Defender) seems a bit crazy to begin with. Maybe some kind of benefit to buffs/debuffs based on how many (of your powerset) have been applied to the target, or maybe a containment-like effect on targets that are under the effects of a debuff from your powerset?

[ QUOTE ]

Actually the Controller story is the other way around. Controllers didn't lose their control abilities so that they could be given Containment. Controllers lost their control abilities because Jack Almighty deemed them overpowered in his new GDN and ED world. He didn't like it that a single Controller could hold an entire 8-man team spawn for longer than it took the team to defeat them. To use his terms, no risk.

And even though Trollers were very difficult to solo up to level 32 (about as difficult as soloing a Defender is now... except Defenders don't magically get better at some point), after they got their pets they were gods. You'd hold the entire spawn and let your army of pets flatten them. Soloing was a BREEZE. Again, no risk.

After controls and pets were nerfed to hell, now there was no way for a Controller to solo at all. Your mez powers didn't last long enough for you to attack with impunity, and you were now limited to 1 moderate damage pet. Giving them a damage buff was the only way to salvage the AT. A side-effect of this was that Trollers became better soloers across all levels, not just after getting their pets.

But this was never a priority, it was merely a side-effect. Prior to all the nerfing, Jack had no issue with the way Controllers were. It was a struggle to get to 32, and then you got seriously rewarded for your diligence. It had nothing to do with Containment. Containment was put in place because Controllers were left un-soloable after all the global nerfs. And one thing that Jack always insisted upon was that every AT should be able to solo on heroic. This is why you no longer get bosses on heroic, because after critters were buffed many Defenders and some Trollers couldn't solo a single boss.

Nice to see not much has changed, at least for the Defender.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, some defender builds have a tendency to play in a controller-like manner, but without the benefits of containment. For example Dark/Dark has an AE snare, AE disorient, AE Immobilize, AE Fear, ST Hold, and AE Intangible all available to them, as well as a controller-style pet at 32. A Dark/Dark can, with some luck regarding accuracy, solo bosses and such, but it takes a LONG time compared to what others can do the same in (essentially fighting based on attrition, using the dark heal to buy more time while hitting them with enough -acc that they only rarely hit you [senile asthmatic vs what say a scrapper can achieve]).

I recall someone above saying that 9/12 AT Inherents buff damage? 9/12 also do not require a team to function (Warshade, Peacebringer, and Defender only gain a benefit while teamed, and Defender only gains this benefit when he's doing his job badly).