SabreOfParadise :
[ QUOTE ]
The devs have shown no inclination to buff unpopular sets in the past and I don't see why they will suddenly start now.
[/ QUOTE ]
....
Mystic_Poobah:
[ QUOTE ]
Well it took them 3.5 years to finally get around to revamping MoG. If that actually gets done, then I'm gonna say the gloves are off and anything is possible.
Let's not forget that we also will soon be getting real numbers, something that would have NEVER happened under the Emmert regime. Flashback too.
It's the dawn of a new era for CoX, and a lot of the old verboten taboos no longer are. I think it's highly likely FF will get looked at at some point. There is no longer any reason not to. Admittedly, Castle has a full plate right now, but look at the changes he's just recently made -- the aforementioned MoG, Frozen Aura, Defiance, Assassin Strike... Remember, just as Posi no longer has to answer to Jack, Castle is no longer shackled by Geko.
At this point I think any under-performing power or set is fair game for adjustment. We just need to give Castle a good reason to look at them (and hope his datamining supports our position).
[/ QUOTE ]
Quoted for FREAKING TRUTH!
Let just look at the most recent headlines on the CoH main page...
"NCsoft Acquires City of Heroes Franchise and Launches NorCal Studio"
"Manticore Returns!"
"A New Age Dawns!"
Yes, times they are a-changin'. What was once true is now not necessarily. Keep your eyes, ears, and hearts open. Don't lose hope.
Mystic_Poobah, I've already discussed my feelings on these changes and some of them are just flat out "cottage" change that completely rework the power.
Never the less, here are my thoughts on your suggestions.
[ QUOTE ]
1a.) Changing Repulsion Field from a PbAoE to a location AoE similar to Bonfire.
[/ QUOTE ]
A PBAoE can simulate a drop. A drop cannot simulate a PBAoE. In effect, you are requesting that the Devs nerf what you feel to be an underperforming set.
[ QUOTE ]
1b.) A more radical change for Repulsion Field (but still keeping with the core function) is to change it into a Singularity-type pet -- a small mobile field that follows the caster around and knocks back any foes that gets near it.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a cottage change. It's also giving a pet to a non-pet AT.
[ QUOTE ]
2.) Change Repulsion Bomb from a targeted AoE knockback to a cone knockback
[/ QUOTE ]
You can already get a cone Knockback from Repulsion Bomb by using positioning. You cannot get 360 degree Knockback from a cone. Again, you are asking the Devs to nerf what you believe to be an underperforming set.
[ QUOTE ]
3.) Reduce the size of Force Bubble down to 20-25' to match Dispersion Bubble, and add two layers of debuffs, similar to Storm/Hurricane. Those foes stuck at the outside of the bubble suffer a -tohit, -range, and -damage; those that are able to resist the repel effect and enter the bubble still receive those same debuffs but also are hit with a slow/-recharge, -defense, and -regen. We can't change the nature of the power, that being repel, but there is no reason it can't be made much smaller and be the one power with a slew of debuffs that FF really needs.
[/ QUOTE ]
I use the large bubble with geometry and other powers to keep baddies out of action. Reducing the bubble to the size of Dispersion Bubble would effectively remove this capability. Again you are asking the Devs to nerf what you think is an underperforming set.
Force Bubble already duplicates -Speed and -Recharge, as well as -Damage, through changes in the baddie AI.
[ QUOTE ]
The idea is to make Force Bubble into Hurricane v2.0 instead of Hurricane v0.5.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you want Hurricane, play Storm. It's a very nice set.
[ QUOTE ]
4.) Ideally I would love to see Detention Field turned into a reverse PFF, meaning they can't move or attack, but we can attack them with either greatly reduced accuracy and/or damage. It could be tricky to balance in PvP, so if an idea like that is completely off the table, turning DF into a limited toggle would be a huge improvement.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have a problem with making it so the team has some small chance of hitting the baddie in DF. But at the same time this doesn't really solve the problem of the team wasting attacks on said baddie. It just reduces the waste from 100% to 95%.
I don't want to see DF made into a toggle as I believe they'll be some sort of penalty associated with this, such as longer recharge time or greater Endurance cost.
And generally, asking the FFer to use the power intelligently and the team to wait a few seconds for it to drop is not that big of a deal in the first place.
[ QUOTE ]
5.) Add a knockup component and minor disorient effect to Force Bolt. Many foes that have resistance to knockback do not have resistance to knockup, and this extra bit allows the power to affect many more foes. The disorient effect is just another little bonus that, again, has the chance to affect foes immune to other aspects of the power, and can stacked with the other disorients in the set to briefly stun more difficult foes.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've already said I don't care what the Devs do with Force Bolt. They can turn it into a power that does /em alakazamreact for all I care.
That said, the chief advantage of Force Bolt is it's fast recharge. I honestly think any buff the power gets will need to be offset by slowing down that recharge.
BurningChick
[ QUOTE ]
Off the top of my head:
AoE alteration to Ice Melee Frost
AoE alteration to a couple War Mace powers
Damage increase to Force Field Repulsion Bomb
[/ QUOTE ]
Great news and it's a change I have absolutely no problem with.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
This is a cottage change. It's also giving a pet to a non-pet AT.
[/ QUOTE ]
Note that this "non pet AT" can have Dark Servant, Tornado, Lightning Storm, and even Voltaic Sentinel. This is not to say that I think FF needs a pet, but there are definately Defenders that DO have pets.
[ QUOTE ]
Something from Castle: "Damage increase to Force Field Repulsion Bomb".
Hahahahahahahaha.
He's not addressing the power's real problems ... he's just going to make it do more than the current quarter of a brawl of damage. But, I guess, this would make the power a crapton better if you're a controller with a -KB immobilize.
[/ QUOTE ]
Meh... MagicJ is probably crapping her pants right now since she chose Mind Control -- no AoE immobilize in that set. Pity...
But dammit, all that does is make the power exploitable for Trollers and does absolutely nothing to address the issues Defenders have with the power.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
perhaps the brainstorming period is over, and it is time to consolidate?
[/ QUOTE ]
*has a strange coughing fit, points to sig*
[/ QUOTE ]
As you can no longer edit this post, you cannot keep it current. We have had at least 3 players make their own complete versions of FF, with several new ideas, since you posted this summary. In other words, we can consolidate again. It would be much easier to do this time around as you already summed up the stuff before that post pretty neatly.
But these last pages convinced me there might not be a point. Too many people don't want to build, they just want to flash their egos and push their personal agenda - or accuse others of doing so. 
Looks like we cannot acheive any kind of consensus, and that means we get drivel changes.
Like the one Castle is giving us now; a damage increase to Repulsion Bomb. No archetype that has FF does damage anyway, the power has a 30 second recharge and a 3 second animation. Do do worthy sustained damage, it would need a brawl index around seven - or damage scale 2.5. That is simply not going to happen. And even if it did, it would only be a trap for the unwary - radial knockback is not worth what a defender can do with this damage. It would be similar to the damage a blaster does with Explosive Blast, and that is one of the worst powers in the game IMO because of the scatter.
The good news is that this really doesn't really matter to me, as Repulsion Bomb was useless before and remains useless. The bad news is that some players might now take it and use it and reduce their contribution to teams.
This thread looks like it is descending into oblivion. Aw well, Force Field still has some good powers as-is, so I guess it doesn't matter.
Honestly, I don't get what this ...buff?... to RB is supposed to achieve. As of right now, Repulsion Bomb doesn't accept damage enhancements, so it would have to do, out of the box, a /lot/ of base damage to be considered a worthy apart of an attack chain ...
But that much base damage would make it /insane/ for a 'troller who can contain the KB, work the disorient to her benefit, and further boost the damage with containment.
[ QUOTE ]
Mystic_Poobah, I've already discussed my feelings on these changes and some of them are just flat out "cottage" change that completely rework the power.
Never the less, here are my thoughts on your suggestions.
[ QUOTE ]
1a.) Changing Repulsion Field from a PbAoE to a location AoE similar to Bonfire.
[/ QUOTE ]
A PBAoE can simulate a drop. A drop cannot simulate a PBAoE. In effect, you are requesting that the Devs nerf what you feel to be an underperforming set.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it's the other way around. If you want to simulate a PbAoE effect in Bonfire you simply stand in the middle of it. Voila! it's now PbAoE. How do you NOT make the current Repulsion Field PbAoE? You can't. It's always PbAoE, whether you like it or not. And since it's your power, not a pet (as is bonfire), all the aggro is on YOU instead of the pet.
Your logic is flawed here. Detaching it from the caster makes it MORE versatile, not less, unless of course you enjoy running thru the map tossing everything all over the place. Then yeah, this change would put a damper on that kind of recklessness.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1b.) A more radical change for Repulsion Field (but still keeping with the core function) is to change it into a Singularity-type pet -- a small mobile field that follows the caster around and knocks back any foes that gets near it.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a cottage change. It's also giving a pet to a non-pet AT.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I would argue it's not a cottage change. The core functionality of Repulsion Field is AoE knockback. That's what it does. As long as you keep that core function everything else is fair game, at least in my interpretation of Castle's statement regarding core function.
And where is it written that FF can't have a pet? Dark gets a pet. Storm gets 2 pets. */Electric Defenders get a pet too. There is nothing written that says it can't be a pet, as long as the pet performs the same core function. I agree this is a much more radical idea, but if nothing else it shows how we can start to think outside the box and come up with creative changes that still retain a power's core function.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2.) Change Repulsion Bomb from a targeted AoE knockback to a cone knockback
[/ QUOTE ]
You can already get a cone Knockback from Repulsion Bomb by using positioning. You cannot get 360 degree Knockback from a cone. Again, you are asking the Devs to nerf what you believe to be an underperforming set.
[/ QUOTE ]
But again, you're missing the point. The point is to get RID of the 360 degree knockback -- it is counterproductive in nearly every single instance you choose to use it except in 2 situations: you're soloing and only have to worry about yourself; or someone is getting overwhelmed and you're doing a Hail Mary to try and save them. Now again, if you're soloing and love tossing foes all over the damned place, then yeah, this change would suck for you. But for the rest of us that actually like to team and want our powers to be useful on a team, this change is invaluable.
And trying to get Repulsion Bomb to act like a cone KB is a LOT harder than you think due to game mechanics and the differences between the way spherical and conical effects actually work in the game. Trust me, I tried many times to use it that way, and it just doesn't work.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3.) Reduce the size of Force Bubble down to 20-25' to match Dispersion Bubble, and add two layers of debuffs, similar to Storm/Hurricane. Those foes stuck at the outside of the bubble suffer a -tohit, -range, and -damage; those that are able to resist the repel effect and enter the bubble still receive those same debuffs but also are hit with a slow/-recharge, -defense, and -regen. We can't change the nature of the power, that being repel, but there is no reason it can't be made much smaller and be the one power with a slew of debuffs that FF really needs.
[/ QUOTE ]
I use the large bubble with geometry and other powers to keep baddies out of action. Reducing the bubble to the size of Dispersion Bubble would effectively remove this capability. Again you are asking the Devs to nerf what you think is an underperforming set.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I'm asking the devs to IMPROVE an underperforming set for 99.99999999999999% of the people that use it (that tiny left over fraction is YOU). The current size of the bubble makes it very unwieldy and often causes unintended aggro in large rooms or thru walls. It also requires melee teammates to leave your Dispersion Bubble to fight foes stuck at the edge of Force Bubble. And some of those melee fighters (namely Blasters) actually rely on the mez protection and defense in Dispersion Bubble. But I guess that only matter if you actually give a [censored] about your teammates, which I'm gathering you don't.
[ QUOTE ]
Force Bubble already duplicates -Speed and -Recharge, as well as -Damage, through changes in the baddie AI.
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, maybe for the first 10 seconds or so as baddies keep trying to get close to you. Once the AI registers that they can't get into melee range they will promptly switch to their ranged weapons and proceed to beat the snot outta you from 50' away. And since they are all spread out around such a large circumference it will be very difficult for the team tank to gather them in one place and get the aggro off of you.
And I'm guessing you're never used Hurricane then? Cause it does everything Force Bubble does and more, and I can very easily use geometry to trap foes in corners and such.
Yeah, I think I've stumbled onto your theme here -- I love being a badass solo Controller and Mastermind, so any change to any powers that impinge my ability to be the ub3rl33t soloist I am I'm calling a terrible idea and a nerf, regardless of how it might improve an underperforming AT I've already said I hate and will never play. I don't care about anyone else but me. Period.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The idea is to make Force Bubble into Hurricane v2.0 instead of Hurricane v0.5.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you want Hurricane, play Storm. It's a very nice set.
[/ QUOTE ]
So it doesn't bother you in the least that Hurricane, a tier 6 power is significantly better than Force Bubble, a tier 9 power? And that their basic core functions are exactly the same? By the way, that was a rhetorical question. I know you don't give a crap.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4.) Ideally I would love to see Detention Field turned into a reverse PFF, meaning they can't move or attack, but we can attack them with either greatly reduced accuracy and/or damage. It could be tricky to balance in PvP, so if an idea like that is completely off the table, turning DF into a limited toggle would be a huge improvement.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have a problem with making it so the team has some small chance of hitting the baddie in DF. But at the same time this doesn't really solve the problem of the team wasting attacks on said baddie. It just reduces the waste from 100% to 95%.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I'll agree with you there. It shouldn't be a "small" chance to hit them. Although you could do it by granting the caged foe a high defense, I think a better option is to leave defense out of it and apply damage resistance instead. A 50% damage resistance would still require twice the number of attacks to defeat the foe, but it's a whole lot better than what we have now, and that's at least 1 person on the team who is going to waste on average 2-3 attacks or more before they realize a foe is caged. But again, YOU would NEVER make such a mistake, so why should you care if other's waste their attacks and endurance. No skin off your nose, right?
[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to see DF made into a toggle as I believe they'll be some sort of penalty associated with this, such as longer recharge time or greater Endurance cost.
And generally, asking the FFer to use the power intelligently and the team to wait a few seconds for it to drop is not that big of a deal in the first place.
[/ QUOTE ]
Spoken like a true soloist who has never used DF on a team and seen first hand the kind of hate is generates. But then again, it's all about you, isn't it? Considering the average time a team takes to defeat a spawn is 10-15 seconds, and the average time DF will hold a foe is 30-40 seconds, I'd say that's more than having to wait "a few seconds". In the time they're standing around waiting the next 2-3 spawns could have already been defeated.
And there is no reason to think that recharge time or overall end cost will change. They might, but the also might not, especially if the only change is to make it a limited toggle. It doesn't in any way make the power stronger or more powerful, so there would be no reason to alter its stats.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5.) Add a knockup component and minor disorient effect to Force Bolt. Many foes that have resistance to knockback do not have resistance to knockup, and this extra bit allows the power to affect many more foes. The disorient effect is just another little bonus that, again, has the chance to affect foes immune to other aspects of the power, and can stacked with the other disorients in the set to briefly stun more difficult foes.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've already said I don't care what the Devs do with Force Bolt. They can turn it into a power that does /em alakazamreact for all I care.
[/ QUOTE ]
Translation: I don't use the power at all, so I really don't give a crap if it's made better for FFers everwhere. It's all about ME, DAMMIT! ME! ME! ME!
[ QUOTE ]
That said, the chief advantage of Force Bolt is it's fast recharge. I honestly think any buff the power gets will need to be offset by slowing down that recharge.
[/ QUOTE ]
If the target is immune to KB, the power is useless no matter how fast it recharges. Unless of course you enjoying spamming a power that does nothing but 1-2 damage against a particular foe. Yeah, that's sound strategy.
I guess I should have heeded the old adage "be careful what you wish for". It's crystal clear at this point that MagicJ's only agenda is his/her own, and has absolutely no interest or care for anyone else except him/herself. I've said it before and I'll say it again, status quo for the minority = bad; change for the majority = good. And poor MagicJ, you are SO in the minority I doubt you even register in datamining. It's actually painful to read your ridiculous nonsense.
Back to the ignore list you go. Buh-bye!
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I don't get what this ...buff?... to RB is supposed to achieve. As of right now, Repulsion Bomb doesn't accept damage enhancements, so it would have to do, out of the box, a /lot/ of base damage to be considered a worthy apart of an attack chain ...
But that much base damage would make it /insane/ for a 'troller who can contain the KB, work the disorient to her benefit, and further boost the damage with containment.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that's what I said (again, does NOBODY read what I write??)
Defenders aren't going to get much use from the damage, cause they're still not going to take or use a power with uncontrolled 360 degree knockback.
But adding damage will turn this into a Troller's best friend. Slap down an AoE Immobilize, establish containment, and not only do they get NO knockback, but double damage AND an AoE disorient that will stack with Stalagmites, Flashfire, etc.
Cause it's not like Stone and Fire Trollers do enough damage or lack superior control abilities as it is, right? 
[ QUOTE ]
So it doesn't bother you in the least that Hurricane, a tier 6 power is significantly better than Force Bubble, a tier 9 power? And that their basic core functions are exactly the same? By the way, that was a rhetorical question. I know you don't give a crap.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to give a point-by-point reply to your post. You asked me for my opinons on your ideas, I took the time to give them to you. I respect that you have your opinion and you're working for changes that you believe will make FF better. I simply don't agree with you that your suggestions would make things better. I'll leave it at that. We've both had our say.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Good posts Poobah.
[ QUOTE ]
*** You are ignoring this user ***
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm... I'm sorry, did you say something?
[ QUOTE ]
Good posts Poobah.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why thank you! 
[ QUOTE ]
And even if it did, it would only be a trap for the unwary - radial knockback is not worth what a defender can do with this damage. It would be similar to the damage a blaster does with Explosive Blast, and that is one of the worst powers in the game IMO because of the scatter.
[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize that campaigning to get the Knockback removed from FF is a "cottage" change that the Devs have already said they're not going to do, yes?
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And even if it did, it would only be a trap for the unwary - radial knockback is not worth what a defender can do with this damage. It would be similar to the damage a blaster does with Explosive Blast, and that is one of the worst powers in the game IMO because of the scatter.
[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize that campaigning to get the Knockback removed from FF is a "cottage" change that the Devs have already said they're not going to do, yes?
[/ QUOTE ]
Considering the original function and description of Repulsion Bomb it already received a cottage change, and you're putting words into the Devs' mouths if you insist that they will never make "cottage changes". That's not what was actually said.
Even assuming the Devs add the ability to slot damage enhancements in addition to upping the damage, this will not make RB significantly more useful. Team players generally do not want mobs scattered everywhere, and radial knockback, as others have said, is not at all easily turned into cone KB. Even less so if the power has a long animation and the mobs are already aggroed. The reduced effectiveness of AoE's will more than offset any damage done by RB for those without AoE -KB powers to use on enemies.
(This opinion is based on having played the game a little bit on teams using all AT's and having a 50 FF/Rad and several */FF Controllers in the 20's. Oh, and my 50 Grav/Storm and 27 Storm/Sonic have no problems at all using Hurricane to contain spawns in corners/geometry for faster disposal.) 
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Y'know, I was thinking. What if they changed Repulsion Bomb into something very similar to the Nemesis Staff v1? If memory serves correctly, the original Nemesis Staff temp power (not the vet temp, but the one you get from the Freakshow around lvl 30) did a nice chunk of AoE damage with an AoE knockback, but the radius was very small, maybe only 3 ft or so. You would typically get at most maybe 3-5 foes that, again if memory serves, almost always flew backwards, not outwards (I'm guessing due to the small radius). The attack itself looked exactly like Force Bolt, only it had a small AoE and did a LOT more damage.
But that could be a workable solution. Right now Repulsion Bomb has a 12' radius, which can easily contain the max # of targets (16?) and send them flying. Reduce the radius to 3', add a meaningful damage component and keep the disorient and you basically have an upgraded AoE version of Force Bolt. It does damage, still has an AOE knockback and disorient, but is no longer the mass scattering power that Defenders have no use for.
And com'n who didn't absolutely LOVE the original Nemesis Staff? It was one of very few temp powers you wept over when it was gone.
What do you guys think of that?
Not bad at all, I like it.
I would take that version of RB in a heartbeat.
Thirded.
It fits thematically into the set as well as the basic description and function of Repulsion Bomb, and it can use an already existing power's coding/graphical effects.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
[ QUOTE ]
Here's an idea I had to add debuffs and damage to FF without changing existing functionality: combos. Use combos, like those found in Dual Blades, to add abilities.
Here's a few examples: The X -> Y -> Z notation means use powers X, Y, and Z, within the combo time to get the bonus. If you don't do it within the combo time, the powers work as they currently do with no bonus.
Dispersion Bubble -> Personal Force Field
Creates a PBAoE effect the size of Dispersion Bubble. Everyone within this effect is enclosed inside a Personal Force Field. Duration is 15 seconds.
Repulsion Bomb -> Force Bolt -> Detention Field
All baddies within the AoE of Repulsion Bomb are affected by a -Defense Debuff. The baddie in Detention Field suffers -Regen and minor DoT.
Force Bolt -> Repulsion Bomb
Doubles Repulsion Bomb's chance to Stun. Adds 40% chance of moderate damage to all affected by Repulsion Bomb.
Repulsion Field -> Force Bubble
Applies -Resistance and -Recharge to all baddies hit by both powers.
Deflection Shield -> Insulation Shield
Gives +Regen to target similar in power to Spirit Tree. Does not stack with self or Insulation Shield combo bonus.
Insulation Shield -> Deflection Shield
Gives +Recharge, +Recovery to target about 1/2 the strength of Speed Boost. Does not stack with self or Deflection Shield combo bonus.
All powers would need to be used against the same target throughout the combo to get the bonus.
[/ QUOTE ]
Haven't been on the forum in a couple of days. Took me a while to catch up.
Heavens Maj! This is really clever... Inspired even!
BTW I agree Defender's should not pay 100% for nukes and should be doing about 5% more damage overall... So as not to overpower Rad and Kin more then they already are. I love the ability to stack the big stuff to actually effect a GM or AV class foe. And the alternate buffs for the order in which Deflection and Insulation are applied. Really keen.
This compliment coming from the old timer FF/Dark/"Sour Grapes cause nothing so far makes it awesome, as the Epics merely patch the outrageous holes", player.
And everyone was bugging your for not contributing. Heh.
I have no clue if this would be possible but I'd be all for it. The PFF thing though... I still would prefere one we can fight through as "Blasting" (not controlling or masterminding) Defenders.
Nuff said from me. I'll keep looking in from time to time. Not that ya' all need me. 
More quotes from Ex Libris in the Gather Around the Campfire" PvP Thread (but IMO applicable to any community effort to effect change)
[ QUOTE ]
Here is my feedback... narrow down to your three top priorities and tell us exactly how you would like to see them designed for PvP, what elements to currently remove as they impede the game, and give suggestions on what things like "more maps" means. Give us examples of maps that already exists, or of things you think would be cool to see and a picture is worth a thousand words.
[ QUOTE ]
*I am using the example of arena maps in the above suggestion.*
[/ QUOTE ]
Giving us your bug list is great, including steps to reproduce is even better. Giving us a huge list to pull out design changes from is a lot more difficult because we run the risk of releasing something you all don't like. If we are clear about what your "Magic Bullet" is for the collective group, we can work towards meeting that need.
Also keeping expectations realistic is helpful. Handing over a huge list and saying "when you fix this then we will be happy," that's tough especially in MMO development, because fixing one thing can often break something else. Design and implementation take time, and with us bringing on new team members a lot of effort is going to be placed on training new people on our engine and on how to use our tools.
[/ QUOTE ]
The way I read this is; Achieve agreement on a 3-point bullet list, or be ignored.
So, if this thread could move back to Defender issues with FF - which requires that we accept (and to a point ignore; this is about magicj) that there are other points of view, then we could perhaps get something done here.
* Steps back from thread again
[ QUOTE ]
More quotes from Ex Libris in the Gather Around the Campfire" PvP Thread (but IMO applicable to any community effort to effect change)
[ QUOTE ]
Here is my feedback... narrow down to your three top priorities and tell us exactly how you would like to see them designed for PvP, what elements to currently remove as they impede the game, and give suggestions on what things like "more maps" means. Give us examples of maps that already exists, or of things you think would be cool to see and a picture is worth a thousand words.
[ QUOTE ]
*I am using the example of arena maps in the above suggestion.*
[/ QUOTE ]
Giving us your bug list is great, including steps to reproduce is even better. Giving us a huge list to pull out design changes from is a lot more difficult because we run the risk of releasing something you all don't like. If we are clear about what your "Magic Bullet" is for the collective group, we can work towards meeting that need.
Also keeping expectations realistic is helpful. Handing over a huge list and saying "when you fix this then we will be happy," that's tough especially in MMO development, because fixing one thing can often break something else. Design and implementation take time, and with us bringing on new team members a lot of effort is going to be placed on training new people on our engine and on how to use our tools.
[/ QUOTE ]
The way I read this is; Achieve agreement on a 3-point bullet list, or be ignored.
So, if this thread could move back to Defender issues with FF - which requires that we accept (and to a point ignore; this is about magicj) that there are other points of view, then we could perhaps get something done here.
* Steps back from thread again
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really necessary, as I have it on good authority this thread has been read from start to finish by a member of the dev team. Our voices have been heard. Whether or not anything gets changed... we'll just have to keep our fingers crossed.
Force Fields doesn't need much, and--unless the devs are serious about changing their "vision"--it REALLY doesn't need to be corrected so as to lack dud powers. I'd take stinkers like Repulsion Bomb over Black Hole or (current) MoG any day.
Also, asking for things like the X -> Y -> Z combo system is just greedy. FF is not a struggling, weak, or needy set.
That said, making Rep Bomb into some sort of "Bitter Force Bolt" is one of the best ideas for the set that I've ever heard.
Mystic_Poobah
[ QUOTE ]
What if they changed Repulsion Bomb into something very similar to the Nemesis Staff v1?
[/ QUOTE ]
/unsigned.
I use Repulsuion Bomb as an AoE control, not a damage attack. While I don't mind seeing damage added, I don't want the control aspect reduced, especially to the extent you're talking about. I'd consider this to be a "cottage" change, or at least very close to one.
RogueDemonhunter
[ QUOTE ]
BTW I agree Defender's should not pay 100% for nukes and should be doing about 5% more damage overall... So as not to overpower Rad and Kin more then they already are. I love the ability to stack the big stuff to actually effect a GM or AV class foe. And the alternate buffs for the order in which Deflection and Insulation are applied. Really keen.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you. That's extremely kind.
I'll just say again that the primary charm of this system to me is that it protects me from any changes that are added. I'm not too concerned about what the bonuses actually are. But it's nice to see that the bonuses I suggested are fairly popular.
Starfox
[ QUOTE ]
The way I read this is; Achieve agreement on a 3-point bullet list, or be ignored.
So, if this thread could move back to Defender issues with FF - which requires that we accept (and to a point ignore; this is about magicj) that there are other points of view, then we could perhaps get something done here.
[/ QUOTE ]
I did a check on what the items on that PvP list being refered to actually are. Here are the top 4 items from that list Ex Libris refered to:
[ QUOTE ]
Selectable maps 74
Hero-Villain Balance 68 X
Cross-server PvP 49 X
Paid PvP Expansion 47 X
[/ QUOTE ]
He's saying pick the top three from this type of list, if I understand him correctly. When you look at the scope of the changes on this list, something like "Make Defenders happy with FF" doesn't strike me as much work, relatively speaking, no matter how it's implemented. It strikes me as a single line item, and not a very difficult one at that.
As to blaming me for no progress I'll again point out that the suggestions so far have for the most part been fairly poor. It's hardly due to me that the idea of adding a chance to Stun to Force Bolt to "help out more during AV fights" is a terrible idea. It's a terrible idea because it doesn't work. And so it goes with the majority of suggestions made on this thread.
But the low quality of suggested "improvements" isn't even the real problem. The real problem is the suggestions are little more than attempts to grab +Pie without rhyme or reason as to how FF actually plays. In the almost 50 pages this thread has consumed there is nowhere to be found a list of problems with FF that need to be solved.
"Solutions" are everywhere. But no problems.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Because ...
This thread is a list of possible changes.
My list of what's wrong (going back 3+ years):
The FF defender (NOTE: defenders, I don't give a rat's [censored] about controllers with FF) herself is under-protected compared other primaries. Further: all FF has going for it is protection; why is the bubbler so squishy compared to her teammates?
4 of 5 mob-affecting powers are useless in AV / monster fights. The fifth, detention field, is frequently resisted by AVs, and the rarity of caging powers means the effect is almost impossible to stack. This leads to the odd-ball situation where sets like kinetics can frequently out-defend bubblers /and/ provide other useful (de)buffs that make the fight faster. Note: I've got lots of experience with kin and dark against AVs; both are far better than FF in big fights.
Solution 1: take some of the powers few /defenders/ take and retool them so the defender herself is better protected -- preferably in ways that don't bork up her ability to use her secondary.
Solution 2: AV-centric debuffs. And Castle considers AV fights significant enough to have nerfed AS in general gameplay so that it's much stronger against AVs.
Yup: cottages. But the set has /very/ specific weaknesses that will NOT be met with number-twiddling without either borking up stuff (i.e., more def is wrong, and increasing the mag of the KB powers to affect AVs would send minions into another time zone).
Further: the devs cottaged defiance.
Edit: added some bits to Solution 1.
[ QUOTE ]
There is no community. The only thing I have in common with anyone else on this thread is that I play CoH with a FF toon.
There is no good reason why anyone should drop their ideas of what FF should be for anyone elses or for a "greater good" ideal.
I'm not convinced this thread will make a lick of difference to whether FF gets any changes to be honest. The devs have shown no inclination to buff unpopular sets in the past and I don't see why they will suddenly start now. They have all the numbers, they know it doesn't offer the same uitility as other defender primaries and they know its not widely played. Don't hold your breath.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well it took them 3.5 years to finally get around to revamping MoG. If that actually gets done, then I'm gonna say the gloves are off and anything is possible.
Let's not forget that we also will soon be getting real numbers, something that would have NEVER happened under the Emmert regime. Flashback too.
It's the dawn of a new era for CoX, and a lot of the old verboten taboos no longer are. I think it's highly likely FF will get looked at at some point. There is no longer any reason not to. Admittedly, Castle has a full plate right now, but look at the changes he's just recently made -- the aforementioned MoG, Frozen Aura, Defiance, Assassin Strike... Remember, just as Posi no longer has to answer to Jack, Castle is no longer shackled by Geko.
At this point I think any under-performing power or set is fair game for adjustment. We just need to give Castle a good reason to look at them (and hope his datamining supports our position).