Nice. With specific problems listed, we can do more than argue the merits of someones +Pie idea. Getting an "consensous" list of problems would go a long way to helping this thread.
[ QUOTE ]
The FF defender (NOTE: defenders, I don't give a rat's [censored] about controllers with FF) herself is under-protected compared other primaries. Further: all FF has going for it is protection; why is the bubbler so squishy compared to her teammates?
[/ QUOTE ]
I understand your concern with this. It makes perfect sense. I know you don't want hear this, but compare it to the situation Controllers and Masterminds have:
*/FF Master Mind + Scorpion Shield
+DEF(S/L) 32.8%
+DEF(Energy) 25.7%
+DEF(Fire, Cold, Neg Energy, Ranged, Melee, AoE, Psionic) 11.7%
+RES(Toxic) 17.5%
*/FF Controller + Frozen Armor
+DEF(S/L) 32.8%
+DEF(Energy, Neg Energy, Fire, Cold, Melee, Ranged, AoE, Psionic) 11.7%
+RES(Fire) 10%
+Res(Cold) 30%
Ice Tank With All Shields
+DEF (S/L, Energy, Neg Energy) 27.5%
+DEF (Fire, Cold) 1%
+RES (Fire) 32%
+RES (Cold) 90%
FF Masterminds and Controllers are _already_ competative with Ice Tankers in terms of Defense. For the most common damage type, S/L, they are actually _better_ than Ice Tankers. They are also better at Fire, Cold, Psionic, Ranged, Melee, and AoE Defense.
You can't buff FF Defense without risking throwing the relationship between Tankers, Controllers, and Masterminds totally out of wack. It's highly unlikely that you'll be able to buff Defender FF Defenses without an outcry from the other FF ATs.
The reason an FF Defender can't match these number is not because of FF. Defenders get more Defense from FF than any other AT. The reason is because Defenders Epics have no shield that provides +DEF. The problem isn't FF, the problem is the design of Defenders.
[ QUOTE ]
4 of 5 mob-affecting powers are useless in AV / monster fights.
[/ QUOTE ]
As to AVs, you know I feel Defenders Detention Field should get a buff so it can cage AVs. Also, With PFF, Taunt, and Aid Self, you can tank an AV (at least long enough for the Tank to get a Rez and get shields back up), which is not something a Kin or other Defender can do. That doesn't mean FF couldn't use a buff for AV fights in its more traditional roll of team support.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
Nice. With specific problems listed, we can do more than argue the merits of someones +Pie idea. Getting an "consensous" list of problems would go a long way to helping this thread.
[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't this what Starfox asked for like 9 pages ago? That makes me smile. 
[ QUOTE ]
Also, With PFF, Taunt, and Aid Self, you can tank an AV (at least long enough for the Tank to get a Rez and get shields back up), which is not something a Kin or other Defender can do. That doesn't mean FF couldn't use a buff for AV fights in its more traditional roll of team support.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have /frequently/ eaten the alphas for the Psy King and Babbage on my 3D. I've also stood up to Dreck and a dozen buddies with my 3D while the tanker bit off more than he can chew.
/em shrug
You don't give enough credit to what other defenders can do.
Just a few of my thoughts on this list.
[list][*]No way of increasing team damage - all other primaries have some way of doing this. /signed [*]Knockback powers are hard to make useful in a team environment without spending hours mastering them. /unsigned It's a true statement, but one I consider to be a plus about FF, not a minus. You're rewarded for the effort you put into learning the powers. [*]Primary gives no way to actively assist in an AV or GM fight. /signed despite the fact PFF + Provoke + Aid Self is the _most fun_ way I've ever done an AV fight. By a long shot. [*]Several powers may be considered "redundant" because they perform the same or similar function. /unsigned I believe this goes back to learning how to use the powers effectively [*]FFer least protected member of the team. /signed with the note that this is due to a flaw in the Defender Epics and improving the FFer's Defense via FF powers seriously risks Controllers and Masterminds stepping on the toes of Tankers and Brutes [*]Constant rebubbling leads to a "boring" or "annoying" playstyle to alot of people.
/signed
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Just to throw this out there, but actually adding straight up damage to FF would help with both items 1 and 3.
The trick is keeping it in line for controllers, which would mean making it immune to containment, and possibly the ability to buff it with damage completely.
Force bolt and RB and repulsion field are the most likely candidates, but RB would need a rework to make the damage even useful.
The other option is to add a -resist effect to force bolt and/or RF.
Detention field is a pretty sucky power if you ask me.
It would be better as a straight up hold or as an immobilize that screws over the targets defense and resistance, but that might be a cottage item.
The second option would help with one and 3 though.
[ QUOTE ]
Several powers may be considered "redundant" because they perform the same or similar function. /unsigned I believe this goes back to learning how to use the powers effectively
[/ QUOTE ]
Eh, there just basically needs to be something more added so that they overlap, but are not so redundant.
If you added a resist debuff to force bolt, damage to repulsion field and defense debuff to force bubble then you have differentiated them quite a bit while still keeping them similar enough (thats just an example of how you could do it) and the core use of the powers unchanged.
It would just make them a little more useful over all.
Quoting magicj for truth and as an example. Emphasis mine:
[ QUOTE ]
I understand your concern with this (FF defenders being squishy). It makes perfect sense. I know you don't want hear this, but compare it to the situation Controllers and Masterminds have:
*/FF Master Mind + Scorpion Shield
+DEF(S/L) 32.8%
+DEF(Energy) 25.7%
+DEF(Fire, Cold, Neg Energy, Ranged, Melee, AoE, Psionic) 11.7%
+RES(Toxic) 17.5%
*/FF Controller + Frozen Armor
+DEF(S/L) 32.8%
+DEF(Energy, Neg Energy, Fire, Cold, Melee, Ranged, AoE, Psionic) 11.7%
+RES(Fire) 10%
+Res(Cold) 30%
Ice Tank With All Shields
+DEF (S/L, Energy, Neg Energy) 27.5%
+DEF (Fire, Cold) 1%
+RES (Fire) 32%
+RES (Cold) 90%
FF Masterminds and Controllers are _already_ competative with Ice Tankers in terms of Defense. For the most common damage type, S/L, they are actually _better_ than Ice Tankers. They are also better at Fire, Cold, Psionic, Ranged, Melee, and AoE Defense.
You can't buff FF [self] Defense without risking throwing the relationship between Tankers, Controllers, and Masterminds totally out of wack. It's highly unlikely that you'll be able to buff Defender FF Defenses without an outcry from the other FF ATs.
The reason an FF Defender can't match these number is not because of FF. Defenders get more Defense from FF than any other AT. The reason is because Defenders Epics have no shield that provides +DEF. The problem isn't FF, the problem is the design of Defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is an interesting observation, and indeed something of a problem, but less than you might think.
At first look this is a glaring example of how FF works better as a secondary than as a primary, which has been a general Defender complaint since day one. What could be done is to add an ice shield to the defender epics. I suppose that might happen at about the same time villain epics get revised. Which might happen, but not soon.
But lets compare to Defender figures using available group powers; Weave and/or Maneuvers.
Defender: Dispersion Bubble + Weave 24% to all
Defender: Dispersion Bubble + Maneuvers 16% to all
Defender: Dispersion Bubble + Weave + Maneuvers 29% to all
These figures are not bad at all. Add in a few percent form Hover and Combat Jumping, and you are very well protected indeed. In the case of Maneuvers it also helps your team. Sure, Controllers and Masterminds can also take these powers, but they get lesser values out of them. I'd go so far as to say that Maneuvers is a 10th power in the Defender version of FF.
But much more can be done if you use positional defense, mainly ranged defense, and ignore typed defense. Using Maneuvers and IO set bonuses, but NO purple sets related to defense, I can get my ranged defense to 40% on a defender. Area Defense really is no big thing, and a FF defender can stay out of melee pretty handily. Using Weave I can get a ranged defense of 47%, which is beyond the soft defense cap. Controllers and Masterminds can't benefit nearly as much from this tactic, as they use typed defense.
The FF defender being squishy is a problem, yes, but it is not a problem that cannot be overcome, and I doubt the Devs will listen to complaints along these lines. After all, all buff Defenders become more squishy than the rest of their team. Changing this would be to change the AT.
As a final note, the FF Mastermind is actually not the Mastermind with th best defense; that honor goes to the Traps Mastermind using Force Field Drone.
[ QUOTE ]
If you added a resist debuff to force bolt, damage to repulsion field and defense debuff to force bubble then you have differentiated them quite a bit while still keeping them similar enough (thats just an example of how you could do it) and the core use of the powers unchanged.
[/ QUOTE ]
All these powers would then pull more aggro, which would be a disasterin the case of Force Bubble.
[ QUOTE ]
The trick is keeping it in line for controllers, which would mean making it immune to containment, and possibly the ability to buff it with damage completely.
[/ QUOTE ]
Controller secondaries don't usually get containment, as far as I can tell. Then again I mainly play /Storm, so I cant be sure there aren't significant exceptions somewhere.
As for preventing any new damage from being increasable for controllers, that seems like sour grapes. Force Field controllers are already far and away the least damage-based and least effective controllers that exist (MagicJ's uber AV-killing Mind/FF Wartroller not withstanding). FF controllers already suffer from the same issue FF defenders do, in that they cant augment or provide damage. Even the high damage pet sets dont make /FF controllers anything but slow, slow SLOW. So throwing them a bone isnt going to change the world.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
[ QUOTE ]
MagicJ's uber AV-killing, GM-Killing, Herding, Farming, Tanking, Chaos Controlling, healing quicker than an Ice Tank with Hibernate, and incredibly good looking Mind/FF Wartroller not withstanding
[/ QUOTE ]
/fixed 
On a more serious note, Controllers do get Containment bonuses from seconday attacks. You're not getting them from Storm because all those attacks are indirect damage. But an FF troller does get them from Repulsion Bomb. But I agree that buffing Repulsion Bomb's damage will hardly make all those Fire/Kins out there wish they rolled Fire/FF instead.
I also put together a new Epic Pool for Defenders. Like fixing Defender cone attacks and reducing the Endurance cost of their nukes, I think this is part of making FF work right for Defenders.
NEW DEFENDER EPIC
41 Hand Clap, Knockback, Chance to Stun_____// There's no such thing as too much Knockback
41 Build Up, +DAM, +ACC__________________// Damage bonus
44 Temp Invulnerability, +DEF(S/L)__________// +DEF shields
47 Fast Healing, +REGEN___________________// +REGEN to counteract catastrophic defense failure
________________________________________// This would have a duration and recharge.
________________________________________// It cannot be made perma.
Very late edit: Hand Clap and Buildup are "placeholder" powers, meaning if folks aren't happy with this idea, they could be replaced without changing the reasion this new Epic is being suggested. Temp Invincibility and Fast Healing are specifically there to buff FF.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
NEW DEFENDER EPIC
41 Hand Clap, Knockback, Chance to Stun_____// There's no such thing as too much Knockback
41 Build Up, +DAM, +ACC__________________// Damage bonus
44 Temp Invulnerability, +DEF(S/L)__________// +DEF shields
47 Fast Healing, +REGEN___________________// +REGEN to counteract catastrophic defense failure
[/ QUOTE ]
The Power Mastery Epic has all of these except Regen. In fact two of the powers you mentioned by name ARE in that Epic set, Temp Invuln and Build Up. Hand Clap in that set is replaced with Total Focus, which is a highly damaging attack that has a GUARANTEED chance to stun (I know this because I use it on level 53 CoT Death Mages all the time). And instead of +Regen, the set gives you a power that can reduce all the endurance that you use for a while. I'd say the set already exists that's close to what you're suggesting, and it's the set that I use.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
NEW DEFENDER EPIC
41 Hand Clap, Knockback, Chance to Stun_____// There's no such thing as too much Knockback
41 Build Up, +DAM, +ACC__________________// Damage bonus
44 Temp Invulnerability, +DEF(S/L)__________// +DEF shields
47 Fast Healing, +REGEN___________________// +REGEN to counteract catastrophic defense failure
[/ QUOTE ]
The Power Mastery Epic has all of these except Regen. In fact two of the powers you mentioned by name ARE in that Epic set, Temp Invuln and Build Up. Hand Clap in that set is replaced with Total Focus, which is a highly damaging attack that has a GUARANTEED chance to stun (I know this because I use it on level 53 CoT Death Mages all the time). And instead of +Regen, the set gives you a power that can reduce all the endurance that you use for a while. I'd say the set already exists that's close to what you're suggesting, and it's the set that I use.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Temp Invul I was refering to is the Blaster version, which is +DEF. The Defender version is +RES.
Very confusing to have different powers with the same name.
Edit: GameAmp lists the Blaster version as +DEF. CoD lists it as +RES. The intent was to have a +DEF shield made available to Defenders.
Nuther Edit:
To avoid confusion, I'll just rename the power.
NEW DEFENDER EPIC
41 Hand Clap, Knockback, Chance to Stun_____// There's no such thing as too much Knockback
41 Build Up, +DAM, +ACC__________________// Damage bonus
44 Temp Invincibility, +DEF(S/L)_____________// +DEF shields
47 Fast Healing, +REGEN___________________// +REGEN to counteract catastrophic defense failure
________________________________________// This would have a duration and recharge.
________________________________________// It cannot be made perma.
Very late edit: Hand Clap and Buildup are "placeholder" powers, meaning if folks aren't happy with this idea, they could be replaced without changing the reasion this new Epic is being suggested. Temp Invincibility and Fast Healing are specifically there to buff FF.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
Quoting magicj for truth and as an example. Emphasis mine:
[ QUOTE ]
I understand your concern with this (FF defenders being squishy). It makes perfect sense. I know you don't want hear this, but compare it to the situation Controllers and Masterminds have:
*/FF Master Mind + Scorpion Shield
+DEF(S/L) 32.8%
+DEF(Energy) 25.7%
+DEF(Fire, Cold, Neg Energy, Ranged, Melee, AoE, Psionic) 11.7%
+RES(Toxic) 17.5%
*/FF Controller + Frozen Armor
+DEF(S/L) 32.8%
+DEF(Energy, Neg Energy, Fire, Cold, Melee, Ranged, AoE, Psionic) 11.7%
+RES(Fire) 10%
+Res(Cold) 30%
Ice Tank With All Shields
+DEF (S/L, Energy, Neg Energy) 27.5%
+DEF (Fire, Cold) 1%
+RES (Fire) 32%
+RES (Cold) 90%
FF Masterminds and Controllers are _already_ competative with Ice Tankers in terms of Defense. For the most common damage type, S/L, they are actually _better_ than Ice Tankers. They are also better at Fire, Cold, Psionic, Ranged, Melee, and AoE Defense.
You can't buff FF [self] Defense without risking throwing the relationship between Tankers, Controllers, and Masterminds totally out of wack. It's highly unlikely that you'll be able to buff Defender FF Defenses without an outcry from the other FF ATs.
The reason an FF Defender can't match these number is not because of FF. Defenders get more Defense from FF than any other AT. The reason is because Defenders Epics have no shield that provides +DEF. The problem isn't FF, the problem is the design of Defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is an interesting observation, and indeed something of a problem, but less than you might think.
At first look this is a glaring example of how FF works better as a secondary than as a primary, which has been a general Defender complaint since day one. What could be done is to add an ice shield to the defender epics. I suppose that might happen at about the same time villain epics get revised. Which might happen, but not soon.
But lets compare to Defender figures using available group powers; Weave and/or Maneuvers.
Defender: Dispersion Bubble + Weave 24% to all
Defender: Dispersion Bubble + Maneuvers 16% to all
Defender: Dispersion Bubble + Weave + Maneuvers 29% to all
These figures are not bad at all. Add in a few percent form Hover and Combat Jumping, and you are very well protected indeed. In the case of Maneuvers it also helps your team. Sure, Controllers and Masterminds can also take these powers, but they get lesser values out of them. I'd go so far as to say that Maneuvers is a 10th power in the Defender version of FF.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you are using the same powers for each example (not including the Epic one).
Here's an Apples-to-Apples comparison. Each power is calculated using 4 Level 50 IO's, and ED is accounted for in the math. The base percentage numbers are taken from City of Data.
Defender
Dispersion Bubble = 16.330% DEF & -8.65 Mag to Hold/Stun/Immob
Hover = 3.062% DEF
Manuevers = 5.716% DEF
Stealth = 4.083% DEF
(Epic) Mind Over Body = 44.908% RES (S/L) [Less for Psionic]
DEFENDER TOTAL = 29.190% DEF & 44.908% RES (S/L) & -8.65 Mag vs Hold/Stun/Immob
Controller
Dispersion Bubble = 12.248% DEF & -10.38 Mag to Hold/Stun/Immob
Hover = 3.062% DEF
Manuevers = 4.287% DEF
Stealth = 3.674% DEF
(Epic) Frozen Armor = 22.046% DEF (S/L/Cold)
CONTROLLER TOTAL = 45.316% DEF (S/L/Cold) or 23.090% DEF (all others) & 0.0% RES (S/L) & -10.38 Mag vs Hold/Stun/Immob
Mastermind
Dispersion Bubble = 12.248% DEF & -5.19 Mag to Hold/Stun/Immob
Hover = 3.062% DEF
Manuevers = 4.287% DEF
Stealth = 3.674% DEF
(Epic) Scorpion Shield = 22.046% DEF (S/L/Energy)
MASTERMIND TOTAL = 45.136% DEF (S/L/Energy) or 23.090% DEF (all others) & 0.0% RES (S/L) & -5.19 Mag vs Hold/Stun/Immob
Summary
Controllers and Masterminds have better Defense values against Smashing/Lethal attacks than Defenders when epic powers are accounted for. Defenders can reduce some of the damage they take, but Controllers and Masterminds work around this by having substantially better chances of not being hit. Only when attack types are outside Smash/Lethal does the Defender show a slight Defense advantage over a Controller or Mastermind.
- B.
Edit: Clarified Controller/Mastermind Defense against Smash/Lethal/other in the Totals and Epic Power line items.
Crey Threat Assessment: Bayne
Virtueverse: Bayne
The Defenders of Paragon
[ QUOTE ]
Controllers and Masterminds have better Defense values against Smashing/Lethal attacks than Defenders when epic powers are accounted for. Defenders can reduce some of the damage they take, but Controllers and Masterminds work around this by having substantially better chances of not being hit. Only when attack types are outside Smash/Lethal does the Defender show a slight Defense advantage over a Controller or Mastermind.
[/ QUOTE ]
That and the fact that Controllers can HOLD enemies, the ultimate defense... Masterminds have alot of bodyguards to soak up damage.... Defender's , especially FFers, don't really have those abilities to "complement" their Defense powers.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Controllers and Masterminds have better Defense values against Smashing/Lethal attacks than Defenders when epic powers are accounted for. Defenders can reduce some of the damage they take, but Controllers and Masterminds work around this by having substantially better chances of not being hit. Only when attack types are outside Smash/Lethal does the Defender show a slight Defense advantage over a Controller or Mastermind.
[/ QUOTE ]
That and the fact that Controllers can HOLD enemies, the ultimate defense... Masterminds have alot of bodyguards to soak up damage.... Defender's , especially FFers, don't really have those abilities to "complement" their Defense powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd add to that the fact that Controllers produce better Mez protection than Defenders do. They end up with a better "common" personal defense potential /and/ better Mez protection than a FF Defender can do. What's up with that?
- B.
Crey Threat Assessment: Bayne
Virtueverse: Bayne
The Defenders of Paragon
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Controllers and Masterminds have better Defense values against Smashing/Lethal attacks than Defenders when epic powers are accounted for. Defenders can reduce some of the damage they take, but Controllers and Masterminds work around this by having substantially better chances of not being hit. Only when attack types are outside Smash/Lethal does the Defender show a slight Defense advantage over a Controller or Mastermind.
[/ QUOTE ]
That and the fact that Controllers can HOLD enemies, the ultimate defense... Masterminds have alot of bodyguards to soak up damage.... Defender's , especially FFers, don't really have those abilities to "complement" their Defense powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Knockback, Stuns, and Detention Field are all available to the Defender FF. That, and Controller AoE Holds are not that great (hint: I have Repulsion Bomb. I skipped Total Domination) means there's not a huge difference in the control ability between an FF Defender and Controller. Especially if the FF Defender takes a secondary and/or Epic with control.
IMHO, the advantage of, say, a Mind Controller over a Defender built to control (either FF or Dark Misma, for example), is the Mind Controller has access to many different types of control and can apply a specialized type of control when the situation calls for it. Defenders tend to have less choice in the types of control available. But both are fine at your basic crowd control.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Force Field, as implemented, is already quite effective. The only thing that bothers me about it is having to recast those shields every 4 minutes on the other 7 members of the group. I would totally play Force Field were it not for that - it looks awesome, and it's awesomely effective.
So my suggestion goes something like:
1) Do something to streamline all this incessant recasting. I really don't care what, so long as the +DEF potency remains in tact.
2) Fix the zone recasting exploit.
But I probably wrote this somewhere on this thread before.
[ QUOTE ]
Knockback, Stuns, and Detention Field are all available to the Defender FF. That, and Controller AoE Holds are not that great (hint: I have Repulsion Bomb. I skipped Total Domination) means there's not a huge difference in the control ability between an FF Defender and Controller. Especially if the FF Defender takes a secondary and/or Epic with control.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you kidding me? You honestly think that a FF Defender, with any secondary, is going to have anywhere near the control of say, a Gravity Controller? Give me a break.
The most controllery secondary is Dark. It has an AoE immobilize, an AoE Disorient, and an AoE knockback. Sonic has an AoE sleep and knockback. Elec has a hold. Energy and Psy have knockback. And let's not forget that you've stated, repeatedly that knockback breaks Defender secondaries, so those must not count as a form of control.
As for EPP, you must be referring to Psychic Mastery. It gives us an AoE Sleep, Hold and single target hold. Dark Mastery gives us an PBAoE disorient. Power has a single target disorient, same with Elect which also has a single target immobilize.
Now, I can see how a FF/Dark/Psychic Master Defender would have some impressive control but to broadly say there isn't a huge difference between the control abilities of a Defender and Controller is stupid. There are 28 different combinations of FF Defenders given secondary and EPPs and maybe 1 or 2 have the control to support your ridiculous statement.
Why does everyone assume that a change to the FF Defender Primary automatically means a change to the FF Controller Secondary?
They can be changed independently.
CDN_Guardian
[ QUOTE ]
Are you kidding me? You honestly think that a FF Defender, with any secondary, is going to have anywhere near the control of say, a Gravity Controller? Give me a break.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that and didn't say that. I said an FF Defender can handle basic crowd control just fine. You only need a single AoE with a decent recharge and a couple of single target controls to do that. For a team that's just running from group to group and killing things fairly quickly, you just don't need an entire primary dedicated to the task of control.
Once you've controlled the group, it doesn't matter that the Controller has more control left "in their pocket" than the Defender. The job of control is done.
Mack008
[ QUOTE ]
Why does everyone assume that a change to the FF Defender Primary automatically means a change to the FF Controller Secondary?
They can be changed independently.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd be more than happy to leave this thread if we can get a red name to guarentee none of the changes that may come from this thread will ever see the light of day outside of the Defender AT.
I don't need +Pie on my Mind/FF and Bots/FF toons. I'm not asking for +Pie. I'm frankly more worried about getting nerfed by someone's great idea for an "improvement".
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
CDN_Guardian
[ QUOTE ]
Are you kidding me? You honestly think that a FF Defender, with any secondary, is going to have anywhere near the control of say, a Gravity Controller? Give me a break.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that and didn't say that. I said an FF Defender can handle basic crowd control just fine.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, what you said was:
[ QUOTE ]
there's not a huge difference in the control ability between an FF Defender and Controller
[/ QUOTE ]
Gee, where did I get you said that? You said nothing about basic crowd control. If you are going to change your tune, at least wait a few bars, not on the next chord.
[ QUOTE ]
I'd be more than happy to leave this thread if we can get a red name to guarentee none of the changes that may come from this thread will ever see the light of day outside of the Defender AT.
I don't need +Pie on my Mind/FF and Bots/FF toons. I'm not asking for +Pie. I'm frankly more worried about getting nerfed by someone's great idea for an "improvement".
[/ QUOTE ]
So you don't even care about FF Defenders?
Great, thanks for the help.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd be more than happy to leave this thread if we can get a red name to guarentee none of the changes that may come from this thread will ever see the light of day outside of the Defender AT.
I don't need +Pie on my Mind/FF and Bots/FF toons. I'm not asking for +Pie. I'm frankly more worried about getting nerfed by someone's great idea for an "improvement".
[/ QUOTE ]
So you don't even care about FF Defenders?
Great, thanks for the help.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, he's made that very clear from the beginning. No interest in making FF Defenders better, no interest in Defenders at all. The ONLY interest MagicJ has is for MagicJ, so that he can do his uber-solo Controller/Mastermind act. And he's convinced that any changes to the FF powers that actually make them useful for a Defender will spell ultimate DOOM! for his uber-soloist toons.
And that he will simply not stand for, no matter how many times he has to contradict himself and blather on nonsensically about game mechanics that only exist in his own mind.
To sum up MagicJ in one blurb (which I would hope will prevent further his further embarrassment by getting him to stop posting, but I'm not holding much hope on that): The FF powers work great on my Controller and Mastermind so I don't want them changed one bit, even if it means that 4/9 powers in the set are utterly useless to Defenders. And if you're an FF Defender who can't get these wonderful powers to work you're either not using them right, have the wrong secondary set, or should have rolled a Controller instead, cause well, Defenders just suck anyway. And no matter what ideas you come up with I'm going to call them either "terrible" or "cottage changes", cause I don't want the powers changed one bit, even if they do suck for Defenders.
Did I sum it all up nicely for you MagicJ? Now will you just [censored] and go troll another forum please?
CDN_Guardian
[ QUOTE ]
But both are fine at your basic crowd control.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you're going to quote me, use the whole quote.
Mack008
[ QUOTE ]
So you don't even care about FF Defenders?
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I'd love to play an FF Defender. But until the underlying flaws in Defenders are fixed, I'm not going to. I can play FF in any other AT without suffering those flaws. Just to keep a running total, here are the aspects of Defenders that need to be fixed that I feel directly negatively affect playing an FF Defender.
<ul type="square">[*]Cones need to be adjusted so they work with Knockback[*]Nukes need to be reduced to 85% Endurance drain so they can be used effectively soloing[*]Defender Epics need to offer a pool that provides a +DEF shield and a way to overcome catastrophic defense failure[/list]
No other AT in CoX that has FF has these types of flaws.
And while we're on the subject, the Defender inherent could use some work too, although I won't list it as something that will stop me from playing an FF Defender.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
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If you added a resist debuff to force bolt, damage to repulsion field and defense debuff to force bubble then you have differentiated them quite a bit while still keeping them similar enough (thats just an example of how you could do it) and the core use of the powers unchanged.
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All these powers would then pull more aggro, which would be a disasterin the case of Force Bubble.
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Maybe you and I are playing different sets, but my FF/dark is already so much of an agro [censored] a little more wouldnt even get noticed.
Especially if it means that stuff dies faster/easier.
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"Solutions" are everywhere. But no problems.
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Keep in mind that these come from the observations I've made in MANY threads over a long period of time. I don't necessarily agree to them myself, but here they are.
Problems GENERALLY seen in ForceField related threads:
<ul type="square">[*]No way of increasing team damage - all other primaries have some way of doing this. [*]Knockback powers are hard to make useful in a team environment without spending hours mastering them. [*]Primary gives no way to actively assist in an AV or GM fight. [*]Several powers may be considered "redundant" because they perform the same or similar function. [*]FFer least protected member of the team. [*]Constant rebubbling leads to a "boring" or "annoying" playstyle to alot of people.[/list]
EDIT: Added last one.