[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: P.S. This doesn't really have anything to do with the discussion about changing the FF Defender primary.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure it does. These are more examples of capabilities I don't want to lose when (if) any changes occur.
And of course I used the Medicine pool when soloing 3 groups at once on a 7 man unyielding mish without using inspirations, temp powers, vet powers, attack powers, or my primary.
When we "fix" the "broken" FF set, I want to still be able to do that.
[/ QUOTE ]
So what's your suggestion for the change? I've stated before that Forcefield is handily outperformed by multiple other competing sets, regardless of AT. How do we make them better?
=^..^=. o O (Nothing to see. Just a cat.)
(_ _)~
*Recipient of a Sentai Sage thumbs up of approval.
..v
(==)b
[ QUOTE ]
I've stated before that Forcefield is handily outperformed by multiple other competing sets, regardless of AT
[/ QUOTE ]
Put together a video of a Sonic soloing 3 groups of Nemesis at once in a 7 man unyielding mish and surviving for over 7 minutes without using anything but Sonic, power pools, no attacks, and an Epic shield and then I'll believe that some other primary can possibly _equal_ what FF can do.
As to suggestions, I've already made some. You can see them at the top of this page. I've also outlined the types of changes that I believe would hurt the capabilities of FF as well pointing to areas where folks could add their ideas for changes without worrying me. You can find that list on page 34.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've stated before that Forcefield is handily outperformed by multiple other competing sets, regardless of AT
[/ QUOTE ]
Put together a video of a Sonic soloing 3 groups of Nemesis at once in a 7 man unyielding mish and surviving for over 7 minutes without using anything but Sonic, power pools, no attacks, and an Epic shield and then I'll believe that some other primary can possibly _equal_ what FF can do.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, YOU'RE the one who keeps telling everyone to go roll a Stormy. 
=^..^=. o O (Nothing to see. Just a cat.)
(_ _)~
*Recipient of a Sentai Sage thumbs up of approval.
..v
(==)b
[ QUOTE ]
I've put together another video starring everyone's favorite FF heroine, WhisperWitch. This video uses no Mind or temp powers or inspirations. It demonstrates how to use chaos control and hibernation to survive a team wipe and was shot by running a 7 man unyielding mish solo.
Staying Alive With Force Fields Tutorial
[/ QUOTE ]
Why the edit at around 3:50?
That video is crazy. I would've died at least 3 times. Long before that if I was dealing with Rikti, who would have put me to sleep and killed me several times over.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
[ QUOTE ]
Here's an idea I had to add debuffs and damage to FF without changing existing functionality: combos. Use combos, like those found in Dual Blades, to add abilities.
Here's a few examples: The X -> Y -> Z notation means use powers X, Y, and Z, within the combo time to get the bonus. If you don't do it within the combo time, the powers work as they currently do with no bonus.
Dispersion Bubble -> Personal Force Field
Creates a PBAoE effect the size of Dispersion Bubble. Everyone within this effect is enclosed inside a Personal Force Field. Duration is 15 seconds.
Repulsion Bomb -> Force Bolt -> Detention Field
All baddies within the AoE of Repulsion Bomb are affected by a -Defense Debuff. The baddie in Detention Field suffers -Regen and minor DoT.
Force Bolt -> Repulsion Bomb
Doubles Repulsion Bomb's chance to Stun. Adds 40% chance of moderate damage to all affected by Repulsion Bomb.
Repulsion Field -> Force Bubble
Applies -Resistance and -Recharge to all baddies hit by both powers.
Deflection Shield -> Insulation Shield
Gives +Regen to target similar in power to Spirit Tree. Does not stack with self or Insulation Shield combo bonus.
Insulation Shield -> Deflection Shield
Gives +Recharge, +Recovery to target about 1/2 the strength of Speed Boost. Does not stack with self or Deflection Shield combo bonus.
All powers would need to be used against the same target throughout the combo to get the bonus.
[/ QUOTE ]
I like the idea a lot !
However I am not sure the current tech allows for toggles to trigger combos. I am thinking in particular to your Dispersion->PFF combo.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've stated before that Forcefield is handily outperformed by multiple other competing sets, regardless of AT
[/ QUOTE ]
Put together a video of a Sonic soloing 3 groups of Nemesis at once in a 7 man unyielding mish and surviving for over 7 minutes without using anything but Sonic, power pools, no attacks, and an Epic shield and then I'll believe that some other primary can possibly _equal_ what FF can do.
[/ QUOTE ]
I believe within the scope of this sort of challenge, a radiation defender could stand in the middle of overlapping spawns with RI and EF locked onto one of the targets, slotted CC holding most things below bosses, LR slowing things down dramatically, and RA healing whatever gets through, with EMP as the emergency panic button. I don't believe you'd even need any epic powers to replicate this level of performance in broad levels. The main difference is that while FF is getting a lot of its damage mitigation via critter scatter and knock, rad would be doing so via maximum clustering of the critters so all effects have their maximum effect.
I'm a little less certain about dark, although weirdly dark does have one bit of trickery up its sleve it can use to beat the letter of the challenge, if not perhaps the spirit of the challenge, and that is that I'm pretty sure Black Hole can be made perma. It would be very hard to kill a dark defender that was deliberately making as many targets intangible as possible as continuously as possible, over and above the rest of the debuffing capability of the set (and the fear).
I wouldn't want to try this with Empathy or Kinetics, though. TA and Storm, I think could go either way: I'm just not certain. I think a sufficiently skilled player could probably do it with TA and Storm, especially with the medicine pool and epic powers.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
I believe within the scope of this sort of challenge, a radiation defender could stand in the middle of overlapping spawns with RI and EF locked onto one of the targets, slotted CC holding most things below bosses, LR slowing things down dramatically, and RA healing whatever gets through, with EMP as the emergency panic button. I don't believe you'd even need any epic powers to replicate this level of performance in broad levels.
[/ QUOTE ]
Could be. It's always difficult to tell what a talented person could do with a set. But I've played most Defender sets, and until I see them do it, I'll be skeptical.
It's easy to say "I'll throw out Freezing Rain and Snow Storm and Tornado and I'll be just fine". It's a bit harder to actually do it.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've put together another video starring everyone's favorite FF heroine, WhisperWitch. This video uses no Mind or temp powers or inspirations. It demonstrates how to use chaos control and hibernation to survive a team wipe and was shot by running a 7 man unyielding mish solo.
Staying Alive With Force Fields Tutorial
[/ QUOTE ]
Why the edit at around 3:50?
That video is crazy. I would've died at least 3 times. Long before that if I was dealing with Rikti, who would have put me to sleep and killed me several times over.
[/ QUOTE ]
The original title to the video, "Stayin Alive", was confusing some folks. They were asking "Why not just stay inside PFF?", which is a reasonable question if your only goal is to survive.
Changing the title made it clear I was focusing on chaos control and hibernation.
Edit:
I also took off the word "tutorial" because, as PK pointed out, it's hardly a step by step tutorial. There's no such thing as a step by step method for chaos.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've put together another video starring everyone's favorite FF heroine, WhisperWitch. This video uses no Mind or temp powers or inspirations. It demonstrates how to use chaos control and hibernation to survive a team wipe and was shot by running a 7 man unyielding mish solo.
Staying Alive With Force Fields Tutorial
[/ QUOTE ]
Why the edit at around 3:50?
That video is crazy. I would've died at least 3 times. Long before that if I was dealing with Rikti, who would have put me to sleep and killed me several times over.
[/ QUOTE ]
The original title to the video, "Stayin Alive", was confusing some folks. They were asking "Why not just stay inside PFF?", which is a reasonable question if your only goal is to survive.
Changing the title made it clear I was focusing on chaos control and hibernation.
Edit:
I also took off the word "tutorial" because, as PK pointed out, it's hardly a step by step tutorial. There's no such thing as a step by step method for chaos.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I mean, why is the video edited at about 3:50 in? It cuts from one scene to another with a very quick fade. If you pause it right there you see the two scenes overlapping.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
<QR>
Here is a suggestion from forumite Neuronia, who sent it to me in a PM:
[ QUOTE ]
I'm putting aside the Controller aspect as I think it skews things more to the side of extreme safety and doesn't have much relevancy to the topic.
Rolled a FF Defender yesterday (went FF/Psy) so I'll have more to report as I crest 50. One thing I *did* want to get back to was Detention Field changes.
I turned my attention to Peacebringer Quantum Flight (No, I'm NOT asking we get a travel power added to DF, that's not Cottage Country, it's silly), wherein you do have a Toggle with an increasing endurance cost as you maintain it.
In this case, you could capture your foe for a variable amount of time. Endurance costs would increase exponentially until evetually either:
i)The toggle would 'break' from lack of endurance recovery.
Problem with this...with Recovery IOs could be made 'permable'
i)Timer on the power would drop it after a set period, irregardless of the amount of Catch a Breath or recovery associated.
This would turn DF into a sort of 'soft' Control for the Forcefield user. We might want to increase the recharge time somewhat though, if we're getting an autohit Toggle.
Other considerations, if the target would break line of sight (this is obviously more of a consideration in the case of a player affected) the Toggle would break and need to be reapplied.
I am somewhat uneasy at the Toggle aspect, esp. vis-à-vis player vs. player interactions, but this seems, at least to me, to be somewhat of a better compromise.
Lastly, I do think it's possible for the Devs to code the changes to the Defender version only. I'm a little foggy at the moment but I'm sure this has happened in the past.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I mean, why is the video edited at about 3:50 in? It cuts from one scene to another with a very quick fade. If you pause it right there you see the two scenes overlapping.
[/ QUOTE ]
PFF is in the lower right hand corner of my tray. There seems to be a bug in the sytem where clicking that spot is not always picked up. There where several times during this video where this happened. I clicked PFF and it didn't come up. The cuts are all skipping over the healing required when this occurs. One time when it happened is still in the video. You'll notice I aggroed the 3rd group when I was at 1/4 health. I'm not dumb enough to do that. That was the bug in effect.
Don't worry, I didn't skip over deaths or near deaths. I never died during that video, even when PFF didn't activate when clicked. And you got to see all the near deaths that occured. All you missed was healing required due to that bug. The intent of the edits was to speed things up and give a better representation of how FF works, or would work, without that bug.
PK:
[ QUOTE ]
I'm putting aside the Controller aspect as I think it skews things more to the side of extreme safety and doesn't have much relevancy to the topic.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd really like to see Castle say this on this thread rather than someone who has *cough* an entire day's experience playing FF.
Castle, can you guarentee any changes you make to Defender's FF will not affect other ATs, now or in the future? I don't want to get stuck with a slow recharge endurance draining toggle Detention Field or 9/10's of the other ideas on this thread. Ever.
Edit:
I'm not trying to "call you out", Castle, I just don't know how else to do this. This is a very important issue to me and I'm very concerned that changes will be made to my favorite toons that would, IMHO, ruin them.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's an idea I had to add debuffs and damage to FF without changing existing functionality: combos. Use combos, like those found in Dual Blades, to add abilities.
Here's a few examples: The X -> Y -> Z notation means use powers X, Y, and Z, within the combo time to get the bonus. If you don't do it within the combo time, the powers work as they currently do with no bonus.
Dispersion Bubble -> Personal Force Field
Creates a PBAoE effect the size of Dispersion Bubble. Everyone within this effect is enclosed inside a Personal Force Field. Duration is 15 seconds.
Repulsion Bomb -> Force Bolt -> Detention Field
All baddies within the AoE of Repulsion Bomb are affected by a -Defense Debuff. The baddie in Detention Field suffers -Regen and minor DoT.
Force Bolt -> Repulsion Bomb
Doubles Repulsion Bomb's chance to Stun. Adds 40% chance of moderate damage to all affected by Repulsion Bomb.
Repulsion Field -> Force Bubble
Applies -Resistance and -Recharge to all baddies hit by both powers.
Deflection Shield -> Insulation Shield
Gives +Regen to target similar in power to Spirit Tree. Does not stack with self or Insulation Shield combo bonus.
Insulation Shield -> Deflection Shield
Gives +Recharge, +Recovery to target about 1/2 the strength of Speed Boost. Does not stack with self or Deflection Shield combo bonus.
All powers would need to be used against the same target throughout the combo to get the bonus.
[/ QUOTE ]
I like the idea a lot !
However I am not sure the current tech allows for toggles to trigger combos. I am thinking in particular to your Dispersion->PFF combo.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks. I like the idea too. It provides a way to introduce new capabilities without disrupting those of us who are very happy with the current FF set.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
ExLibris in a PvP discussion. Emphasis mine.
[ QUOTE ]
We also have a lot of niche groups asking for some special attention, and some of those communities have really proven that they can work well together to be able to prioritize what they, as a community would like to see happen. Removing the guesswork from our end is invaluable and that is one reason that it is crucial that you all as a community can work out your differences.
Many of those groups are in the same boat as you are in that they haven't had specific changes for their game style in a long time.
[/ QUOTE ]
While the thread has no direct bearing on us (it is on smack talk in PvP), it shows how the devs and mods think; if a group can get its act together and unify around what they want, they can actually get something done. Posting this to show how important it is that we try to get some consensus around here.
This thread has been quiet for a time; perhaps the brainstorming period is over, and it is time to consolidate?
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks. I like the idea too. It provides a way to introduce new capabilities without disrupting those of us who are very happy with the current FF set.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be a bit more detailed:
Coming from a Bots/FF, I liked your idea setup because :
- I would not be forced into taking many powers that would be counter-productive for my bots (scattering mobs)
- I would be more active [even when solo] applying combos to others. I particularly like the bubble sequences, they would provide a new gameplay dimension: choosing the right combo buff by changing buff sequence.
A few concerns:
- I am not sure you can have combos that use toggles
- Repulsion Field->Force Bubble combo debuff would be quite tricky to use and probably detrimental to FF playstyle (keep mobs at range) unless the effect sticks to the mob (à la TA)
[ QUOTE ]
perhaps the brainstorming period is over, and it is time to consolidate?
[/ QUOTE ]
*has a strange coughing fit, points to sig*
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
perhaps the brainstorming period is over, and it is time to consolidate?
[/ QUOTE ]
*has a strange coughing fit, points to sig*
[/ QUOTE ]
You might want to add the combo idea to the general section unless its listed somewhere else and I missed it.
It's an interesting idea and worth some dev time to investigate, at least in my opinion.
Synergy Lvl 50 Def FF/Electric/Psy - Protector
Cimarron - Protector Mascot
My DA Page
[ QUOTE ]
<QR>
Here is a suggestion from forumite Neuronia, who sent it to me in a PM:
[ QUOTE ]
I'm putting aside the Controller aspect as I think it skews things more to the side of extreme safety and doesn't have much relevancy to the topic.
Rolled a FF Defender yesterday (went FF/Psy) so I'll have more to report as I crest 50. One thing I *did* want to get back to was Detention Field changes.
I turned my attention to Peacebringer Quantum Flight (No, I'm NOT asking we get a travel power added to DF, that's not Cottage Country, it's silly), wherein you do have a Toggle with an increasing endurance cost as you maintain it.
In this case, you could capture your foe for a variable amount of time. Endurance costs would increase exponentially until evetually either:
i)The toggle would 'break' from lack of endurance recovery.
Problem with this...with Recovery IOs could be made 'permable'
i)Timer on the power would drop it after a set period, irregardless of the amount of Catch a Breath or recovery associated.
This would turn DF into a sort of 'soft' Control for the Forcefield user. We might want to increase the recharge time somewhat though, if we're getting an autohit Toggle.
Other considerations, if the target would break line of sight (this is obviously more of a consideration in the case of a player affected) the Toggle would break and need to be reapplied.
I am somewhat uneasy at the Toggle aspect, esp. vis-à-vis player vs. player interactions, but this seems, at least to me, to be somewhat of a better compromise.
Lastly, I do think it's possible for the Devs to code the changes to the Defender version only. I'm a little foggy at the moment but I'm sure this has happened in the past.
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
Y'know, not to be a [censored] or anything, but I made this exact same suggestion TWICE in this thread. Does anyone actually read what I write???
I too think changing DT to a limited toggle would greatly enhance the usability; mostly because you'd be able to bring it down whenever you chose (or like the current version, would come down on it's own after a short period of time, say 30 seconds).
The reverse PFF idea could be applied with this one, separately (because if you can actually attack what's inside DF you don't really care much about when it comes down), or not at all. It was just another suggestion.
And I'm going to address MagicJ for a moment (and yeah, I'll have to un-ignore so I can read the response)
Please read over the changes to FF that I posted, and explain to me, in detail, why you think those changes would after the various FF powers in such a way that your Mind Controller would lose the ability to do what she can do now.
Because as far as I can see it, all the changes (besides the alternative change to Repulsion Field) still retains all the same basic functionality of the current FF powers, but makes them better and more useful for EVERYONE who uses them, not just the Defender.
So please, take a moment, review my suggestions 1 by 1 and discuss why you think my ideas would drastically alter the playstyle you are so protective of.
[ QUOTE ]
A few concerns:
- I am not sure you can have combos that use toggles
- Repulsion Field->Force Bubble combo debuff would be quite tricky to use and probably detrimental to FF playstyle (keep mobs at range) unless the effect sticks to the mob (à la TA)
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, with software you can do anything you like. So the only issue with the toggles will be if the Devs want to do it. If the Devs want toggles to work in combos, they will.
But as far as the given combos producing given results, these ideas are just suggestions. I don't mind at all if folks give ideas for other combos or other results from existing combos.
Mystic_Poobah
[ QUOTE ]
Please read over the changes to FF that I posted, and explain to me, in detail, why you think those changes would after the various FF powers in such a way that your Mind Controller would lose the ability to do what she can do now.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've already posted a list of concerns with the various ideas on this thread. You can find it on page 34. If I missed some of your particular ideas, could you re-post them so I don't have to dig through 45 pages of stuff, and I'll tell you my thoughts on them.
Starfox
[ QUOTE ]
some of those communities have really proven that they can work well together to be able to prioritize what they, as a community would like to see happen
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll only add that telling people to leave the thread because their favorite toon is not a Defender, campaigning to have folks put on ignore, and in general dismissing concerns is in no way "working together".
This thread has, for the most part, been nothing other than a collection of bad ideas and various folks bullying others to try to get their favorite bad ideas implemented by the Devs.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
some of those communities have really proven that they can work well together to be able to prioritize what they, as a community would like to see happen
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll only add that telling people to leave the thread because their favorite toon is not a Defender, campaigning to have folks put on ignore, and in general dismissing concerns is in no way "working together".
This thread has, for the most part, been nothing other than a collection of bad ideas and various folks bullying others to try to get their favorite bad ideas implemented by the Devs.
[/ QUOTE ]
I took you off ignore so I could see your response to Poobah, and I already regret it.
Dismissing concerns? Do you not see what a pathetic hypocrite you are when in the next sentence you state that this thread is nothing more than a collection of bad ideas? Again, who are you to judge anything?
If you want us to work together, know what would really help? You shutting your mouth about how bad you think some of these ideas are. You honestly expect us to show you any consideration when you are completely unwilling to show any yourself?
Talk about bullying, you are one of the worst in the thread. You continually harp about the same points and continually call everyone else's ideas stupid, bad or terrible and then you have the nerve to complain about other people's behaviour.
Frankly, I think we need to just sit down, be quiet, raise our hands and get teacher to come and check out our work BEFORE we start calling our classmates stupid. Frankly, it's not the average forum-goer's job to say this poster or that idea is bad or stupid. The red-names have far more inside knowledge than any of us do. Sometimes we just have to trust them to do their jobs. Once they've considered things, they can throw it back to us for verdict.
=^..^=. o O (Nothing to see. Just a cat.)
(_ _)~
*Recipient of a Sentai Sage thumbs up of approval.
..v
(==)b
Mack's unsolicited recommended changes (now cottage free!):
[u]Detential Field[u]: Make a Toggle, with a max time, and a hefty Endurance cost.
[u]Repulsion Bomb[u]: Reduce the Knockback, increase the chance to Stun from 40% to 80%.
[u]Force Bubble[u]: Reduce the magnitude of the Repel, but add a -Slow component to compensate.
Pretty sure all of these were previously mentioned by various folks, but felt they were worth repeating.
[ QUOTE ]
Mystic_Poobah
[ QUOTE ]
Please read over the changes to FF that I posted, and explain to me, in detail, why you think those changes would after the various FF powers in such a way that your Mind Controller would lose the ability to do what she can do now.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've already posted a list of concerns with the various ideas on this thread. You can find it on page 34. If I missed some of your particular ideas, could you re-post them so I don't have to dig through 45 pages of stuff, and I'll tell you my thoughts on them.
[/ QUOTE ]
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....ue#Post10019171
That post contains the abbreviated version of my suggestions. Please explain to me, in detail, why these changes are terrible, and why they will have such a drastic impact on your Controller. Cause from the way I see it, none of the changes (save 1B) change the powers so radically that they cannot continue to be used in exactly the same manner as they are now. Unless of course your whole playstyle is about crowd scatter. If that's the case, then yeah, we're gonna have a problem...
There is no community. The only thing I have in common with anyone else on this thread is that I play CoH with a FF toon.
There is no good reason why anyone should drop their ideas of what FF should be for anyone elses or for a "greater good" ideal.
I'm not convinced this thread will make a lick of difference to whether FF gets any changes to be honest. The devs have shown no inclination to buff unpopular sets in the past and I don't see why they will suddenly start now. They have all the numbers, they know it doesn't offer the same uitility as other defender primaries and they know its not widely played. Don't hold your breath.
Something from Castle: "Damage increase to Force Field Repulsion Bomb".
Hahahahahahahaha.
He's not addressing the power's real problems ... he's just going to make it do more than the current quarter of a brawl of damage. But, I guess, this would make the power a crapton better if you're a controller with a -KB immobilize.
[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: P.S. This doesn't really have anything to do with the discussion about changing the FF Defender primary.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure it does. These are more examples of capabilities I don't want to lose when (if) any changes occur.
And of course I used the Medicine pool when soloing 3 groups at once on a 7 man unyielding mish without using inspirations, temp powers, vet powers, attack powers, or my primary.
When we "fix" the "broken" FF set, I want to still be able to do that.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage