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Changing the secondaries does nothing to address the discrepancies between FF and the other primaries.
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This simply isn't true. The only other Defender primary that knocks things around like FF is Storm and Storm provides extra damage powers that aren't hurt by the Knockback. You're not left with killing things for 50 levels using only single target blasts with Storm.
FF doesn't provide that kind of compensation for making your secondary almost useless. And it _can't_ provide it unless the powerset was almost completely reworked to make it a clone of Storm.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but this simply IS true.
It's not the damage component that balances Storm out to compensate for the knockback; it's the multitude of other effects at Storm's disposal.
-Res, slow, -def, -to hit, -recharge, damage and knockdown all provide other ways for Storm to contribute on top of the knockback.
Implementing some of these effects into FF could easily improve the contributions a FF'er could bring to a team beyond the defence, status protection and knockback.
FF does not make our secondaries useless. Why you continue to focus on this is beyond me. Continuing to harp that our secondaries require changing is pointless; the secondaries work with every set, even FF. Even if you are right, that is one primary out of them all that there are issues with.
Which is easier? Changing that single primary? Or every single secondary? I also see that you failed to respond to my earlier post asking how any proposed changes will affect the primary/secondary relationship with other Defender primaries.
[QR]
Ok. I'm not one to say something like this, but after watching MagicJ's video I'd like to offically declare that he/she is not qualified to comment in this thread. I know that's harsh, but the reality is his/her use of Force Fields is based on experience with the set as a Controller Secondary. This fact alone makes any experience she/he has in using the set bias to his/her own techniques. Force Fields as a primary has a very distinct tactic and not having a Power Set to compliment that tactic is the reason why we (the Defender Community) feel certain powers should be re-evaluated. Controllers have the luxury of having Primary Power Sets that compliment the Force Field Set and can over come it's short comings. The general Defender population agrees that Detention Field, Repulsion Field, Repulsion Bomb, and Force Bubble are inaduquate powers. We (the general Defender Community) feel that those powers need to be changed. Your opinion as to the validity of those changes is not helpful because your perception of the use of those powers is from that of a Controller. Unless you have experience with this power set from a Defender perspective you should refrain from commenting on the changes we suggest in this thread.
-The Elite-[50's]Va'Leria�X'hian�Stormy Monday�Radical Burn�Mo'Mentum�Heat-Source�Professor Blaze
-World Wide Evil, Inc-[50s]Soulfire�Perma.Frost�Kold Soul�Foxphyre�Pitch-Black�Corrupt Fusion�Cassanova Brown�Tyler Thorn�Iron Siren�Solaura�Fortunauta Wade�Look'Alike�Arctic Engineer
Valeria, I've played FF in the Defender and Mastermind ATs as well as Controllers. When I'm speaking of the flaws with Defenders secondaries combined with Knockback, it's based on experience. Even if it weren't, it's no great mystery that Knockback messes up blasting.
CDN_Guardian
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FF does not make our secondaries useless.
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You're right. "Useless" is too strong of a word. "Less useful" or "Not up to par with what's available to FFers in other ATs" is a better way of saying it.
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Which is easier? Changing that single primary? Or every single secondary?
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I'd assume changng the secondary is easier simply because it requires very few tweaks. Changing the cones to match the cone of TT and reducing Endurance drain of nukes to 85%. Done.
But A) it's probably better to let the Devs decide such things, and B) taking the easy road isn't justified if it ignores the underlying problem.
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I also see that you failed to respond to my earlier post asking how any proposed changes will affect the primary/secondary relationship with other Defender primaries.
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Well, you and I have had some discussions on that. I'd like to see those changes made independant of FF, even though I feel they're particularly relevant to FF. There's a reason my level 50 Dark/Dark sits on the shelf and my Mind trollers get played. That reason is the Defenders' secondaries.
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Implementing some of these effects into FF could easily improve the contributions a FF'er could bring to a team beyond the defence, status protection and knockback.
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And as I've said, I don't mind seeing FF get some of those things. I _don't_ want to see existing capabilities hurt because of them. In the list of concerns I posted I tried to make it clear where I thought adding such things would hurt FF and where it would not.
EDIT:
You can find my list of concerns on page 34.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
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Changing the secondaries does nothing to address the discrepancies between FF and the other primaries.
[/ QUOTE ]
This simply isn't true. The only other Defender primary that knocks things around like FF is Storm and Storm provides extra damage powers that aren't hurt by the Knockback. You're not left with killing things for 50 levels using only single target blasts with Storm.
FF doesn't provide that kind of compensation for making your secondary almost useless. And it _can't_ provide it unless the powerset was almost completely reworked to make it a clone of Storm.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, changing the secondaries has zero effect on the relationship between the primaries. Nada, zilch, zero. If XYZ primary was better than FF, then it will remain better regardless of changes to the secondaries.
Or mathematically:
If XYZ > FF
Then XYZ + 1 > FF + 1
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Changing the secondaries does nothing to address the discrepancies between FF and the other primaries.
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This simply isn't true. The only other Defender primary that knocks things around like FF is Storm and Storm provides extra damage powers that aren't hurt by the Knockback. You're not left with killing things for 50 levels using only single target blasts with Storm.
FF doesn't provide that kind of compensation for making your secondary almost useless. And it _can't_ provide it unless the powerset was almost completely reworked to make it a clone of Storm.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, changing the secondaries has zero effect on the relationship between the primaries. Nada, zilch, zero. If XYZ primary was better than FF, then it will remain better regardless of changes to the secondaries.
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*sigh* If Knockback reduces the effectiveness of your secondaries, and other primaries don't cause that Knockback, FF will reduce the effect of your secondaries. It's that simple.
If you play a Bots/FF, the bots will still hit despite Knockback. If you play a Mind/FF, Terrify will still hit with Knockback.
If you play a Rad Defender, there is no Knockback to hurt your secondaries. Ditto with Kin. And Dark. If you play Storm, Storm works with Knockback.
The odd man out is the FF Defender.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
*sigh* If Knockback reduces the effectiveness of your secondaries, and other primaries don't cause that Knockback, FF will reduce the effect of your secondaries. It's that simple.
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Excellent! You finally agree that the FF Primary needs to be addressed and not all the Def Secondaries!
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If you play a Bots/FF, the bots will still hit despite Knockback. If you play a Mind/FF, Terrify will still hit with Knockback.
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Hmm... Not a FF Def, and not a FF Def. Irrelevant.
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If you play a Rad Defender, there is no Knockback to hurt your secondaries. Ditto with Kin. And Dark. If you play Storm, Storm works with Knockback.
The odd man out is the FF Defender.
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Exactly. Adjust the FF Primary, not all Defender Secondaries.
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Hmm... Not a FF Def, and not a FF Def. Irrelevant.
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Not at all irrelevant. Unless you just feel an overpowering need to play a Defender, why would you play a Defender FF when the other ATs work better with FF?
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Exactly. Adjust the FF Primary, not all Defender Secondaries.
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So let's look at some of the options for doing that.
* Add damage to FF.
___I'm all for it. I don't think the Devs are, but I certainly am. But this type of change would need to go across all ATs, leaving us right back where we are now: no compelling reason to play FF as a Defender.
* Add damage buffs to FF to make up for the FF Defender having to use mostly single target attacks.
___This doesn't really work. A damage buff needs some damage to buff in the first place. Solve the problem of Defender blasts and Knockback, however, and this becomes a nice option. But this would need to go across ATs, leaving no compelling reason to play an FF Defender.
* Remove the Knockback from FF.
___This would be a "cottage" change to the set, which the Devs have already ruled out.
* Add some other form of +Pie to FF.
___I'm not against this, but it doesn't solve the underlying problem. And again, it would need to go across all ATs, leaving no compelling reason to play an FF Defender.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
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Hmm... Not a FF Def, and not a FF Def. Irrelevant.
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Not at all irrelevant. Unless you just feel an overpowering need to play a Defender, why would you play a Defender FF when the other ATs work better with FF?
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Because Defenders are fun and the combination of Buffing/Debuff & Blasting is what some of us prefer to do.
You're making the assumption that people should choose to be a FF'er first, then should find the AT with the powersets that the set best meshes with. I choose to be a Defender, and picked my powersets according to what looked interesting. I'd say that most people also do this, not the former. I'd also say that it's a demonstration of incredibly bad design if the former is necessary for a powerset to work well.
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Exactly. Adjust the FF Primary, not all Defender Secondaries.
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So let's look at some of the options for doing that....
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See, now you're on track. As in your post before this one, you've shown that FF is the odd man out. It's not the secondaries that are the problem, if they were, Storm would be having similar problems with it's plethora of knockback powers. Storm obviously isn't and that is not solely due to the powers in the Storm powerset that cause damage.
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As in your post before this one, you've shown that FF is the odd man out. It's not the secondaries that are the problem, if they were, Storm would be having similar problems with it's plethora of knockback powers. Storm obviously isn't and that is not solely due to the powers in the Storm powerset that cause damage.
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Well, I edited that post while you were replying. Adding buffs to FF doesn't change the fact a Defender FF will still underperform an FF in any other AT. Fixing the blasts _does_ change that.
I personally would like to play a Defender FF, but I'm not going to do it when that choice gimps me right out of the box.
Edit:
And this _isn't_ an argument against adding buffs if they're needed. It's just pointing out that adding those buffs doesn't change the imbalance an FF Defender suffers compared to FF in other ATs.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
Fixing the blasts _does_ change that.
[/ QUOTE ]
I completely and utterly do not understand why you think this. If this were true, as I've already stated, Storm would be having the same problems; it isn't. Saying the powers in Storm's primary that do damage are the sole reason Storm doesn't have this problem is false as well. On outdoor maps, it's very easy for mobs to be knocked out of range of the damaging primary powers.
I'll iterate and say that it's the variety of effects Storm can apply to enemies that allows it to contribute in every fight.
I also do not understand your fixation on the imbalance between FF'ers in different AT's; this has little relevance when we are speaking about one specific AT. It's in the nature of the other AT's that their primaries work better with FF, but this obviously has no relevance to a discussion of FF as a primary or any relevance to a discussion of Defender secondaries.
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I completely and utterly do not understand why you think this.
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Well, if you're not hitting the baddies with your blasts, you're going to be less effective. The Knockback of FF causes the blasts to miss many of the baddies due to a small amount of scatter.
This scatter doesn't effect Storm. Freezing Rain is large enough that it doesn't matter. Lightning Storm has the range to overcome the scatter. Tornado follows the baddies no matter where they go.
Edit: Similar reasoning applies to using FF in other ATs. Their attacks are designed in such a way that they can overcome the small amount of scatter FF causes.
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I also do not understand your fixation on the imbalance between FF'ers in different AT's
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It's the reason I don't play an FF Defender. For me to play an FF Defender it has to be "as good as" playing FF in some other AT. That doesn't mean "the same as" playing it in another AT. A Mind/FF and a Bots/FF play very differently, yet I play both. It just means that if playing FF as a Defender is noticable worse than playing in another AT, I'm going to play it in another AT.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
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Changing the secondaries does nothing to address the discrepancies between FF and the other primaries.
[/ QUOTE ]
This simply isn't true. The only other Defender primary that knocks things around like FF is Storm and Storm provides extra damage powers that aren't hurt by the Knockback. You're not left with killing things for 50 levels using only single target blasts with Storm.
FF doesn't provide that kind of compensation for making your secondary almost useless. And it _can't_ provide it unless the powerset was almost completely reworked to make it a clone of Storm.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, changing the secondaries has zero effect on the relationship between the primaries. Nada, zilch, zero. If XYZ primary was better than FF, then it will remain better regardless of changes to the secondaries.
[/ QUOTE ]
*sigh* If Knockback reduces the effectiveness of your secondaries, and other primaries don't cause that Knockback, FF will reduce the effect of your secondaries. It's that simple.
If you play a Bots/FF, the bots will still hit despite Knockback. If you play a Mind/FF, Terrify will still hit with Knockback.
If you play a Rad Defender, there is no Knockback to hurt your secondaries. Ditto with Kin. And Dark. If you play Storm, Storm works with Knockback.
The odd man out is the FF Defender.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're really just not seeing the big picture. And despite at least half a dozen of us trying to paint it for you, it's like you're running around with your hands over your eyes going "lalalalalalalalalala".
The Force Field set is sub-par compared to other Defender sets NOT because it's a heavy knockback set that causes it to not mesh well with the secondaries. It's a sub-par set because unlike all the other Defender primaries that are a mix of buffs, foe debuffs, and light control, FF is all buff with heavy-handed controls unsuitable for a Defender. It's as simple as that.
If knockback in itself was the issue, then all */Energy Defenders would have problems as all the Energy attacks have knockback. But that's not the case.
And as others have stated, if there was a problem with the secondaries, then ALL Defenders would have problems, not just FF. But that too is not the case.
Part of the problem with FF as a whole is that as the game has evolved over the years foes have gotten more difficult and various debuffs are often necessary to defeat them. And every single Defender primary has had additional debuffs added to their existing foe debuff powers to compensate for this. Except FF that is, because FF has NO foe debuff abilities.
Along with the increased foe difficulty has come substantial player nerfing, making it all the more important to keep foes grouped together for maximum AoE debuffing, damage, and control. And again we have poor FF, which runs 180 degrees contrary to these needs by having 3 powers that do nothing but scatter mobs instead of control or debuff them.
The problem with FF has absolutely nothing to do with the secondaries. The problem with FF is that a number of its powers hamper the ability of the Defender to defend. Not only with its lack of debuffs, but with powers that do nothing but scatter and spread mobs instead of clump and control them.
And I must reiterate the sentiments of others -- FF is a Defender PRIMARY. If the set as a whole is sub-par in performance for Defenders, then changes should be made to correct this. Improving the usability of FF powers for Defenders will not hurt Controllers or Masterminds, but will only make them better as well.
And even though you have managed to find useful ways of using FFs "undesirable" abilities to your advantage as a Controller, it only underscores how sub-par it is for Defenders. The more you try and prove to us the powers work great for your Mind Controller, the more you are proving the set is broken for Defenders, as we simply cannot make use of the powers the way a Controller can. And I'm sorry, but we MUST come first.
[ QUOTE ]
The Force Field set is sub-par compared to other Defender sets NOT because it's a heavy knockback set that causes it to not mesh well with the secondaries.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've already said, several times, I don't mind seeing FF getting a few buffs so long as those buffs don't break existing functionality.
But that doesn't change the fact that if your cone blasts are hitting very few baddies you're greatly hurting your offense. And that's exactly what Knockback does. I really don't see why I'm even having to argue this obvious, well known, point.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Can we stop replying to Magicj's posts already? This is not moving the debate anywhere.
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[ QUOTE ]
Hmm... Not a FF Def, and not a FF Def. Irrelevant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not at all irrelevant. Unless you just feel an overpowering need to play a Defender, why would you play a Defender FF when the other ATs work better with FF?
[/ QUOTE ]
So the answer to playing a FF Defender is to... not play a FF Defender?
Nice.
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Unless you just feel an overpowering need to play a Defender, why would you play a Defender FF when the other ATs work better with FF?
[/ QUOTE ]
Unbelievable. So your answer to fixing FF Defenders is to delete them and roll a */FF Controller or Mastermind? 
That is the most utterly ridiculous thing I have ever read in this forum. And by God I've read some doozies over the years.
And you're STILL not getting it. The reason FF works better with other ATs is because those other ATs have abilities that allow you to either work with or around FFs shortcomings. It only PROVES that FF is broken for Defenders. And since FF is a Defender PRIMARY, it should work the best for us, not Controllers or Masterminds.
I don't understand why you can't comprehend this very simple, easy to grasp concept.
QR
Thank you Poobah for writing that post, putting into words what everyone else who is not Magicj (and perhaps PK) on this thread is thinking.
Its a Defender Primary first, fix it so its a viable selection for Defenders, and the rest will sort itself out.
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Hmm... Not a FF Def, and not a FF Def. Irrelevant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not at all irrelevant. Unless you just feel an overpowering need to play a Defender, why would you play a Defender FF when the other ATs work better with FF?
[/ QUOTE ]
So the answer to playing a FF Defender is to... not play a FF Defender?
Nice.
[/ QUOTE ]
I believe the answer is to fix real problems with the set. That the majority of the secondary is made significantly less effective by using many of the powers in your primary is a major flaw with the FF Defender.
It's _why_ FF Defenders don't take those powers, can see no use for those powers, and wonder what the Devs were thinking when they designed those powers.
Anyway, at this point I have to agree with Starfox. Argueing over this is getting us nowhere. The opinions of both sides have been extremely well documented. Let's move on.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unless you just feel an overpowering need to play a Defender, why would you play a Defender FF when the other ATs work better with FF?
[/ QUOTE ]
Unbelievable. So your answer to fixing FF Defenders is to delete them and roll a */FF Controller or Mastermind?
That is the most utterly ridiculous thing I have ever read in this forum. And by God I've read some doozies over the years.
And you're STILL not getting it. The reason FF works better with other ATs is because those other ATs have abilities that allow you to either work with or around FFs shortcomings. It only PROVES that FF is broken for Defenders. And since FF is a Defender PRIMARY, it should work the best for us, not Controllers or Masterminds.
I don't understand why you can't comprehend this very simple, easy to grasp concept.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because Magicj plays mind/ff and bots/ff - and the ff part is fine in a complementary role with those sets. Thus it should follow that because it does not with ff/* that the * is the problem.
What Magicj doesn't understand is that we see FF as a defender primary, and compare it to other defender primaries, rather than comparing FF in isolation across other AT's.
I think we're right, since its our Primary, and his Secondary. I don't go whining about my NRG blasts on the blaster boards now do I?
[ QUOTE ]
What Magicj doesn't understand is that we see FF as a defender primary, and compare it to other defender primaries, rather than comparing FF in isolation across other AT's.
[/ QUOTE ]
I _have_ compared it to other Defenders' primaries. The only other Defender primary that causes havoc with secondaries the way FF does is Storm, which also provides ways of compensating for that. FF can't do that unless it's redesigned as a Storm clone.
As for me being here discussing possible changes to the set, I probably wouldn't even bother if so many of the suggestions weren't simply terrible _and_ have a pretty good chance of rippling through to the other ATs if implemented.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
As for me being here discussing possible changes to the set, I probably wouldn't even bother if so many of the suggestions weren't simply terrible _and_ have a pretty good chance of rippling through to the other ATs if implemented.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm trying really, really hard to be polite to you, but since you are starting to behave like a dink again, I'll iterate my earlier sentiment:
Piss off.
Who the [censored] are you to say that any of these suggestions are terrible? Quite being such a jerk off and trying to preemptively strike down these ideas since you are so afraid they might be implemented. Do you you seriously think the devs will read this and spontaneously change the powers according to what we've suggested? Good grief. What an [censored] hole. What type of close-minded loser takes it upon themselves to try and stymie a discussion because they are afraid of the result? Go censor some other poor saps if your entire objective is to stop this discussion.
Again, piss off.
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[ QUOTE ]
What Magicj doesn't understand is that we see FF as a defender primary, and compare it to other defender primaries, rather than comparing FF in isolation across other AT's.
[/ QUOTE ]
I _have_ compared it to other Defenders' primaries. The only other Defender primary that causes havoc with secondaries the way FF does is Storm, which also provides ways of compensating for that. FF can't do that unless it's redesigned as a Storm clone.
As for me being here discussing possible changes to the set, I probably wouldn't even bother if so many of the suggestions weren't simply terrible _and_ have a pretty good chance of rippling through to the other ATs if implemented.
[/ QUOTE ]
I spend the better part of 2 hours coming up with realistic ways of improving FF, not only for the Defender, but for any AT with access to them; ways that actually DO have a chance of being implemented because they do not alter the core function of the power, are not overpowering or imbalanced, and bring all of FFs abilities up to the same usefulness as other Defender primaries and you have the balls to come in here and call my ideas terrible cause because in fixing Defenders they might break your particular Controller playstyle? Well ya know what? [censored] YOU.
Never in over 3 years have I felt the need to do this to anyone, but you obviously are a troll that needs to be excised from this thread.
Welcome to my ignore list, and congratulations on being the first one ever to be on it.
[ QUOTE ]
What type of close-minded loser takes it upon themselves to try and stymie a discussion because they are afraid of the result?
[/ QUOTE ]
The only "censoring" I've tried to do is suggesting we stop talking about the secondaries. We've all had our say, let's move on.
As to many of the suggestions being terrible, well... they are. Sorry, but it's the truth. Calling me names doesn't make them any better.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
The only "censoring" I've tried to do is suggesting we stop talking about the secondaries. We've all had our say, let's move on.
[/ QUOTE ]
Great, you agree with the original premise of this topic. The rest of us agreed on that 400 posts ago when it started.
[ QUOTE ]
Changing the secondaries does nothing to address the discrepancies between FF and the other primaries.
[/ QUOTE ]
This simply isn't true. The only other Defender primary that knocks things around like FF is Storm and Storm provides extra damage powers that aren't hurt by the Knockback. You're not left with killing things for 50 levels using only single target blasts with Storm.
FF doesn't provide that kind of compensation for making your secondary almost useless. And it _can't_ provide it unless the powerset was almost completely reworked to make it a clone of Storm.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage