[ QUOTE ]
Edit: To use Dark Blast as an example, Night Fall's cone would be changed to match TT's cone and Blackstar would have only an 85% Endurance drain.
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Do you think these changes realistic? Having area shapes not match is a very persistent theme; the only exception is Sonic Blast, but in that case one of them has a knockback. And changing overload attacks (commonly called novas) so they burn 85% endurance would be a very big change to Blasters and Corruptors; less so to Defenders, but any changes would penetratate to all 3 ATS (in some cases to Masterminds/Dominators as well).
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Do you think these changes realistic?
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I think them to be far more realistic and far more useful than the majority of the changes to FF I've seen suggested here. IMHO, this is because they solve actual problems, rather than just throwing +Pie on everything and hoping that somehow makes it better.
As to changes to Blasters and Corruptors, I never suggested that. If there's no problem, no fix is needed. Blasters should absolutely have 100% Endurance drain. Corruptors I've not played, so I don't feel comfortable giving a number for them. But because they do more damage than Defenders, I'll just take a guess that their Endurance drain should be somewhere between 95% and 100%.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Even so, those changes would help FF defenders solo herd. But I am not sure many FF Defenders want that playstyle. All the group problems would remain. Plus you would have perhaps overpowered non FF defenders (though I am not sure thats the case --- but + damage might create some issues with certain debuffing sets). I keep coming back you your point of view is based on a a solo herding playstyle that is not shared with the majority of the posters here as far as I can tell.
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Turning Detention Field into a reverse PFF and giving it the ability to work on friends and foes, assuming the code supports that, accomplishes that while also leaving the core functionality of the power in tact, keeping trouble foes out of the fight until your ready for them.
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I do like the idea that the power leaves the existing functionlity alone. That way, folks who don't like the new feature don't have to use it.
But the new feature seems a bit flawed to me. As examples, consider:
* FFer wants to rebubble team during AV fight. Hits Detention Field by accident, caging the team's Tanker.
* FFer sees Blaster is running low on Health. Cages Blaster just as he click Nova.
I'll also point out that FFers already have a similar, probably better, ability if they take Provoke. Taunting the baddies attacking a teammate and raising PFF gives basically the same benefits as this idea without the drawbacks. Provoke has the added advantage that it can be used in other situations as well.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
Plus you would have perhaps overpowered non FF defenders (though I am not sure thats the case --- but + damage might create some issues with certain debuffing sets).
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I'm not suggesting any +Damage changes be made to fix FF for Defenders.
I do think Defenders should get a slight boost to damage. But _that_ is genuinely not linked to FF. Nukes basically not being useful solo and blasts being greatly hurt by FF's Knockback are linked to FF, in my view.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
I do think Defenders should get a slight boost to damage. But _that_ is genuinely not linked to FF.
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I agree with this. I just view it as a problem independent from FF and thus not sure why its an argument against adjusting a few of the FF powers.
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I do think Defenders should get a slight boost to damage. But _that_ is genuinely not linked to FF.
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I agree with this. I just view it as a problem independent from FF and thus not sure why its an argument against adjusting a few of the FF powers.
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It's not an argument against adjusting FF powers.
The argument for not changing FF powers comes from the fact they work so well. That doesn't mean folks shouldn't suggest improvements, but the improvements need to make the set better. That's not going to be as easy as it first may seem. FF genuinely isn't broken.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
The argument for not changing FF powers comes from the fact they work so well.
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Not for Defenders. If they did, we wouldn't have a 18 page thread.
Again, you're thinking of other AT's, not Defenders.
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Tenzhi
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I presume you got Repulsion Field and Repulsion Bomb mixed up here?
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Not that I'm aware of.
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So, here's what you said about Repulsion Bomb, the power that you currently have to target a friendly to use:
"I do not wish to see this power changed to work off an teammate. I find this power to be extremely useful solo."
And that's what you fully intended to say?
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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[ QUOTE ]
Tenzhi
[ QUOTE ]
I presume you got Repulsion Field and Repulsion Bomb mixed up here?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not that I'm aware of.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, here's what you said about Repulsion Bomb, the power that you currently have to target a friendly to use:
"I do not wish to see this power changed to work off an teammate. I find this power to be extremely useful solo."
And that's what you fully intended to say?
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Repulsion bomb hasn't worked that way for 2 years
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Repulsion bomb hasn't worked that way for 2 years
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Ah, good. As long as the misinformation gets cleared up on one end or the other. 
EDIT: Incidentally, did they ever get around to changing the text or does it still say you have to target an ally with it in the description?
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Repulsion bomb hasn't worked that way for 2 years
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, good. As long as the misinformation gets cleared up on one end or the other.
EDIT: Incidentally, did they ever get around to changing the text or does it still say you have to target an ally with it in the description?
[/ QUOTE ]
STILL says teammate in game. Something that's bugged me for a LONG time.
I'm not going to trudge through this whole thing, but one thing that would actually excite me in Forcefield is if the ST Phase also did damage. The idea of crushing someone with a forcefield seems pretty intuitive to me - but alas, the defender cannae do such a thing.
An idea I just had for Force Bolt: add an Immobilize (with no -knockback effect, obviously) against AVs/EBs only. Immobilize is the only effect that commonly affects them, and Defenders are short on it; this would add something special to Force Field against these opponents.
[ QUOTE ]
As to changes to Blasters and Corruptors, I never suggested that [their powers be changed]. If there's no problem, no fix is needed. Blasters should absolutely have 100% Endurance drain. Corruptors I've not played, so I don't feel comfortable giving a number for them. But because they do more damage than Defenders, I'll just take a guess that their Endurance drain should be somewhere between 95% and 100%.
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The problem here is the same as with the idea to change FF for Defenders only. Someone suggested adding a slow to Force Bubble to the Defender version only. This is VERY unlikely to happen; the devs only do this when a power is obviously out of sync with what the AT does. But who knows, perhaps the End loss is something that can be affected by an AT-specific variable. I doubt it tough.
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I'm not going to trudge through this whole thing, but one thing that would actually excite me in Forcefield is if the ST Phase also did damage. The idea of crushing someone with a forcefield seems pretty intuitive to me - but alas, the defender cannae do such a thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, it could do damage, but any damage it does would be insignificant next to the regeneration of a boss/AV. A -Regen effect would be nice tough; the team can use the time to recover, the caged AV cannot. Perhaps add in s minor DoT just for style (and to interrupt Rest and the base teleport powers).
[ QUOTE ]
Repulsion bomb hasn't worked that way for 2 years
[/ QUOTE ]
I only found this out today.
I have been avoiding this power for years because I thought it worked off of an ally.
Some may say if I've been playing for that long, perhaps I should have known this. Should I? Should I really have to scour the Patch Notes for changes like this, or diligently follow the forums when I could be using my limited free time actually playing? Should new players be required to read every past patch note and cross-check against the in-game information for discrepancies?
Shouldn't I be able to rely on the in-game description of a power being at least reasonably accurate?
Frankly, I think this is more than a simple text bug. It's a disgrace. Players should NEVER have to rely on out-of-game sources for such basic and fundamental information, especially in the absence of an accurate and up-to-date game manual. Forum guides and external websites are certainly useful, but they should never be the only source for something this important.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Repulsion bomb hasn't worked that way for 2 years
[/ QUOTE ]
I only found this out today.
I have been avoiding this power for years because I thought it worked off of an ally.
Some may say if I've been playing for that long, perhaps I should have known this. Should I? Should I really have to scour the Patch Notes for changes like this, or diligently follow the forums when I could be using my limited free time actually playing? Should new players be required to read every past patch note and cross-check against the in-game information for discrepancies?
Shouldn't I be able to rely on the in-game description of a power being at least reasonably accurate?
Frankly, I think this is more than a simple text bug. It's a disgrace. Players should NEVER have to rely on out-of-game sources for such basic and fundamental information, especially in the absence of an accurate and up-to-date game manual. Forum guides and external websites are certainly useful, but they should never be the only source for something this important.
[/ QUOTE ]
QUOTED FOR FREAKING TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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QUOTED FOR FREAKING TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Something we can all agree on. Devs, fix the text please. 
[ QUOTE ]
The problem here is the same as with the idea to change FF for Defenders only.
[/ QUOTE ]
It could be the Devs would view the idea to lower Defender Endurance drain on nukes that way. I don't. Scaling is something that's commonly done to a powerset when its moved to another AT. For example, Dark Misma's heal has a smaller AoE for a Mastermind than a Defender. Mind control powers have a shorter duration for Dominators than Controllers. Things like that. I see lowering the Endurance drain for Defender nukes as scaling. The damage has been scaled down from Blaster damage, the Endurance drain should also be scaled down a bit.
Also, any scaling types of suggestions for FF I think could be made for Defenders only. Change the recharge time on power X. Lower the Endurance cost of power Y. I don't have a problem with _any_ of those types of ideas. It's only when folks talk about adding effects or completely changing a power that I get worried.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
I know the general consensus (probably pulled from a developer comment somewhere) is that if you increase the duration of Force Field bubbles, you have to decrease something else. However, I think that there's simply a user-friendliness problem in Force Field (and other powers such as Speed Boost) in that you have to continually re-apply your Force Bubbles.
So, my suggestion to change Force Fields is this:
1. Prevent stacking from same characters on zoning. (It's an exploit, plain and simple.)
2. Make single target buffed force fields last much longer. Say, 15 minutes or until zoning.
3. Do not nerf anything to compensate for this change.
Yes, I'm aware that there'll probably be people passing out force fields to everybody on the street. I don't care. From my game balance perspective, if you've got something that runs for 4 solid minutes, it stops matter how long it lasts.
Right now, this is the main thing keeping me away from Force Fields and Kinetics. Having to reapply buffs constantly is not fun for me, it's just needless tedium. Other MMORPGs have changed such buffs to a concept of "cast once and it's automatically maintained" and City of Heroes (which is ahead in so many other ways) could afford to catch up here as well.
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The argument for not changing FF powers comes from the fact they work so well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not for Defenders. If they did, we wouldn't have a 18 page thread.
Again, you're thinking of other AT's, not Defenders.
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Although I think I disagree _greatly_ with most posters on this thread as to the extent FF doesn't work for Defenders (I don't think it's bad, just not as good as FF with other ATs), I do recognize that Defender FF could use some Dev lovin.
I'm not trying to take away your +Pie. I just want to A) make sure FF isn't given a feature that is +Pie for Defenders and -Pie for other users of the set, and B) give my own suggestions on changes that would lead me to play FF as a Defender.
Edit:
[ QUOTE ]
However, I think that there's simply a user-friendliness problem in Force Field (and other powers such as Speed Boost) in that you have to continually re-apply your Force Bubbles.
[/ QUOTE ]
/signed for both bubbles and SB.
SB is the _only_ reason I won't play a Kin in any AT.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Who's going to slog their way through 37 levels of FF defending to magically have their problems solved by keeping 15% of their endurance when they're nuke-ing?
Changing the secondary won't make FF any more attractive to prospective defenders - it'll mean more Rads and Kins.
[ QUOTE ]
Changing the secondary won't make FF any more attractive to prospective defenders
[/ QUOTE ]
It would to at least 1. 
If your AoE blasts and nukes don't mesh with your primary, you're left soloing with single targets. I don't need to do that with an FFer in any other AT. This isn't just a small nit pick. Soloing with an FF Defender is much slower than with another AT.
I'm not going to play a build that forces me to spend 50 levels killing things with single target attacks despite the fact the build is one of the best herding builds in the game, has AoEs blasts, and a nuke.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
This is really a separate topic, but here goes:
[ QUOTE ]
I know the general consensus (probably pulled from a developer comment somewhere) is that if you increase the duration of Force Field bubbles, you have to decrease something else. However, I think that there's simply a user-friendliness problem in Force Field (and other powers such as Speed Boost) in that you have to continually re-apply your Force Bubbles.
[/ QUOTE ]
Many, many powers in CoX are "balanced by annoyance". If used to full extent, they are great. To prevent this, they have been made so awkward to use that they become almost useless. Actually, Force Field gets away pretty well here, with just to timed buffs, both on the same, long, duration.
Consider Empathy, with two such buffs, Clear Mind on a 90 second duration and with a horribly long animation, Fortitude with a 2 minute duration and a horribly long recharge. Fully using Fortitude makes you a slave to the recharge timer - the main reason I deleted my level 37 Empathy Defender.
Or consider Kinetics. Increase Density lasts 60(!!!) seconds, and has both animation and recharge long enough to make it hard to put on everyone. Speed Boost lasts 90 or 120 seconds (I'm not sure of the exact duration).
I hate this, and it makes playing ether of these sets horrible. I think the devs should take a page from the upcoming Age of Conan MoG; there, buffs will last 30 minutes or so, but will cease almost immediately if you are not teamed with the buffer. If we apply that, and also remove buffs when zoning, that would be an IMMENSE quality of life change.
Of course some powers would have to be re-tought, such as the self-stacking of Clarity, Thraw, and Clear Mind - which would then affect the magnitude of some extreme mez users like Ghost Widow. But such changes would be good changes in and of themselves, so I see no problem with this.
[ QUOTE ]
Who's going to slog their way through 37 levels of FF defending to magically have their problems solved by keeping 15% of their endurance when they're nuke-ing?
Changing the secondary won't make FF any more attractive to prospective defenders - it'll mean more Rads and Kins.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. Changing the secondaries does nothing to address the discrepancies between FF and the other primaries. If you have more Rads & Kins now, you'll still have more of them afterwards.
Adjusting FF itself is the only way to address the problem. The secondaries are irrelevant.
Well I don't have a huge experience with Force Fields, but I do like how I can apply my shields and then forget about the primary mainly and just shoot with my bow.
Personally I'm not too fond of all the knockback powers, they're nice to have but something I can happily live without. Although I only took FF for RP reasons so I just ignore the powers I don't like. Repulsion field is basically repel from Kinetics as far as I am aware - a power I've tried before and never liked. ><
Still its a shame I skip quite a few of my powers but then I do like but then I do like the fact I can ignore a lot of my primary and still do my basic job - shield allies without feeling like im missing anything much at all. However thats hardly balanced - is it? ^^
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Defender solo damage is a major issue with all Defenders, not just FF, but is really a completely separate issue.
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It's the biggest problem I see with Defenders. One which FF is not only unable to mask, but actually makes worse. So no, the problem with Defenders' secondaries is directly related.
Fixing those problems should be the first step.
[/ QUOTE ]
It might be, but this will NEVER happen. Look at Corruptors; basically Defenders operating at 75% of normal for the buff/debuff (some exceptions), They do 75% base damage, a whoopping 10% more than Defenders. Any increase to Defender damage would make us completely outclass Corruptors. So that avenue is closed. Defender secondaries are simply not on the agenda, because there won't be any changes to them. I think reiterating how much better these powers work on Controllers can have no positive result; the only result I can see a Controller nerf. You are welcome to try to suggest changes to defender secondaries, but anything that improves overall damage is just not realistic.
In other words, any modification to Defenders, and FF defender is particular, must be in the primary set - FF.
You made you point that you do not want FF changed. Duly noted. That venue won't work for Defenders as I've explained. Now, please don't rehash this argument again, as its not going to convince any Defenders, and this is a Defender discussion on how to improve FF. For Defenders. With due consideration for how ATs that have it as a secondary use it, of course, but primary > secondary.
Sorry to say, magicj, but I'm back to where PhiloticKnight was several pages ago; if you can't give any positive suggestions that are valid from a Defender perspective, please leave this discussion alone.