Caging: Wish List Discussion
3.
My personal preference is for 3. While sonics might be overpowered (unres 30% -res, sheilds that grant 30% +res, and with IOs, the ability to, second for second, keep someone else out of the match), so are emps and fire/ems and everything else we use in the arena. Being reasonably overpowered is okay, being able to make it so that someone else who showed up to play practically doesn't get to is less so. Sonic cage occasionally gets cited as a reason when top players leave, and that's because being able to permaphase someone else has a pretty strong amount of -fun. Just as there's suppression on other mezes, there should be suppression on cage powers. Add a ten second suppression to cage, so a single player can only be caged every other time it's up.
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Since complaints about cage are pretty popular...the current popularity of 2 cage teams...the ladder match for #1 ended with a 2 sonic team vs a 2 sonic team, and Freaks vs. OS saw 4 sonics brought into a match on one side.
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And not a single FF Defender in the mix. Why? Because it is an AT power mix that underperforms even when the cage power is included into the mix. Why does it underperform? Keep reading.
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2. Cage is overpowered since it has no workable counters. Add cage resistance (i.e., a decrease in duration caged) to one or more ally buffs.
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I disagree with this. Bringing cagers already has its downsides....
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I also disagree with the statement. Cage powers have a "workable counter" in the attack roll needed to land the power on a character. The problem in that is the laughable protection Defense brings into play in PVP. People ask for a RESISTANCE function because they know DEFENSE functions don't work like they should in PVP. That means there is a fundamental problem in the Defense vs ToHit system, not in the cage power itself.
Why is it that bringing "cagers" has its downsides? I think it is because the powersets that have cage powers in them are poorly designed for functionality in PVP. Their powers depend on players behaving in a PVE tactial approach (stay close to the "cager", group up, and stay in range of the defense/resistance radius of the cager) rather than the way PVP works in practice (never stop moving, don't group up, and don't let others keep you in range).
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4. Entirely rework defense and tohit. The fact that blasters are regularly caged through pb'd PFF with two forts is the problem, not permacaging.
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This solution addresses the root cause of the issue. In today's code the Defense vs ToHit system is broken for truly effective PVP combat. It needs to be reviewed and reworked instead of applying bandaids to individual powers. Fixing the root cause will allow the various AT's and Powersets to be balanced the way they should have been from the start.
Crey Threat Assessment: Bayne
Virtueverse: Bayne
The Defenders of Paragon
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3.
My personal preference is for 3. While sonics might be overpowered (unres 30% -res, sheilds that grant 30% +res, and with IOs, the ability to, second for second, keep someone else out of the match), so are emps and fire/ems and everything else we use in the arena. Being reasonably overpowered is okay, being able to make it so that someone else who showed up to play practically doesn't get to is less so. Sonic cage occasionally gets cited as a reason when top players leave, and that's because being able to permaphase someone else has a pretty strong amount of -fun. Just as there's suppression on other mezes, there should be suppression on cage powers. Add a ten second suppression to cage, so a single player can only be caged every other time it's up.
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What about FF's cage power? Oh, right. Defense powers are not as effective in PVP as Resistance powers. This screams BROKEN BALANCE to me.
Crey Threat Assessment: Bayne
Virtueverse: Bayne
The Defenders of Paragon
the only thing I like about cage is the fact that its effectively one of the few mezes that actually work, in the end.
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Since complaints about cage are pretty popular...the current popularity of 2 cage teams...the ladder match for #1 ended with a 2 sonic team vs a 2 sonic team, and Freaks vs. OS saw 4 sonics brought into a match on one side.
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And not a single FF Defender in the mix. Why? Because it is an AT power mix that underperforms even when the cage power is included into the mix. Why does it underperform? Keep reading.
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While a FF defender didn't play at all, a grav/FF troller was used it round two.
No TAs and no Darks though. To say nothing of no scrappers or tanks, no blaster primaries other than fire nor secondaries other than EM, and, although I don't remember checking, I'd take a bet that there weren't any defender secondaries other than sonic, psi, or rad.
JAL uses FF a decent bit of the time, I've seen OS run them, and so has VR. FFs aren't gimp by any means, it's just that the power you think of as being central (dispersion) is instead personal, and they instead spend most of their time on disruption via force bubble, which requires multiple IDs to counter.
I vote 5.
Fixing the "-fun factor" .. I dunno, doesn't seem like a legit reason to me. Part of the job of disruption is to make things frustrating / un-fun for the other team. When I go around sleep spamming, my job isn't to kill, it's to frustrate the other team... -fun.
Cage resistance (thanks for citing my reasoning ) = no for the reasons cited above.. and it doesn't seem to merit a major reworking.
I vote 5, leave it as is.
I have no desire to see a cage nerf, the only thing I would like - although it will never happen - is to limit teams to one cager in an 8v8. If both teams run double sonics/FFs you're effectively taking a quarter of the matches participants out, which really cuts down the fun factor. Prior to the ladder's incision there was somewhat of a gentleman's rule in place in regards to not bringing more than one sonic to an 8v8, I would love to see that restored.
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I vote 5.
Fixing the "-fun factor" .. I dunno, doesn't seem like a legit reason to me. Part of the job of disruption is to make things frustrating / un-fun for the other team. When I go around sleep spamming, my job isn't to kill, it's to frustrate the other team... -fun.
Cage resistance (thanks for citing my reasoning ) = no for the reasons cited above.. and it doesn't seem to merit a major reworking.
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Being disrupted is a lot different than being not able to play.
All other mez effects have suppression. Why? Because they decided it wasn't fun for people to be eternally held and never get a chance to fight back. Shouldn't cage fall under those same rules?
One of my favorite PsyPunk posts ever was his "Ask the Devs" parody "Ask the [censored]" that talked about adding a feature that permacaged all players in arena matches. I forget the exact wording, but it did an absolutely brilliant job of talking about how, sure, you couldn't play the game you were there to play, but other players couldn't affect or harm you. How wonderful!
Caging's less of an issue than when it was still bugged and 30 seconds, but I really think it needs supression.
I'd like to add another suggestion, we'll number it #6
6) Add diminishing returns to cage. What I mean by this is Detention field and sonic cage start off lasting 15 second for the first time someone is caged. The second time they are caged, it only lasts 10 seconds. The third time, it lasts 5 seconds. After that, they are immune to being caged for 15 seconds. After the 15 seconds of immunity they can be caged for the full duration again. The time between the first second and third cages is 15 seconds in order for the next level of diminishing returns to take effect. So after the first cage, if the target is caged a second time within 15 seconds of the first cage, then diminishing returns kicks in and they can only be caged for 10 seconds. If the target is NOT caged withing 15 seconds of the first cage, then the next cage will last the full 15 second duration.
I hope that makes sense.
[u]Summary:[u]
1st Cage = lasts 15 seconds
If caged again within 15 sec. then...
2nd Cage = lasts 10 seconds
If caged again within 15 sec. then...
3rd Cage = lasts 5 seconds
If caged within 15 sec. then...
4th Cage = Immune for 15 seconds
**If the time between cages is greater than 15 seconds, the cage lasts the full 15 second duration
You say not being able to play, I say another form of disruption
I vote #7: If you cage any toon with the name Payne in it you will die a slow and horrible death!
I kid I kid...
If anything #3 makes most sense if any change is to be done. However, adding some kind of IO for cage resist or just add cage resist to current IOs could give the player or team the option on what to build for rather than nerfing or redoing an entire power.
I honestly don't see what's wrong with the cage the way it stands now. It's simply another tactic -- a good one, at that -- and the team that counters it best and utilizes its own benefits, will win. How's that different from any other tactic?
Being spiked and killed makes you unable to play, too, for a similar duration of time... that's just how it goes. Taking players out of play is the definition of getting your team the advantage... or something like that. It's late. I'm tired. ;[
I kinda doubt that cage resistance is even possible with the game mechanics, and for that matter, cage suppression may be too.
Generally I'd favor a 10 second cage supression, especially if it supresses only from the same caster. That is, the same cager can't perma-cage 1 person. 2 cagers could (and theoretically they could trade cage targets and keep 2 people perma-caged). I think that would encourage some variety in the targets, without gimping sonics out of matches.
i'm not opposed to #3 at all. in fact i like it.
It would be nice to force some variation in the cage target. but i don't think its game breaking as is. 2 cager teams are really nasty though. i've been trying to think up a good counter that isn't more cagers.
I vote 5.....leave as it is.
5 here, too.
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I'd like to add another suggestion, we'll number it #6
6) Add diminishing returns to cage. What I mean by this is Detention field and sonic cage start off lasting 15 second for the first time someone is caged. The second time they are caged, it only lasts 10 seconds. The third time, it lasts 5 seconds. After that, they are immune to being caged for 15 seconds. After the 15 seconds of immunity they can be caged for the full duration again. The time between the first second and third cages is 15 seconds in order for the next level of diminishing returns to take effect. So after the first cage, if the target is caged a second time within 15 seconds of the first cage, then diminishing returns kicks in and they can only be caged for 10 seconds. If the target is NOT caged withing 15 seconds of the first cage, then the next cage will last the full 15 second duration.
I hope that makes sense.
[u]Summary:[u]
1st Cage = lasts 15 seconds
If caged again within 15 sec. then...
2nd Cage = lasts 10 seconds
If caged again within 15 sec. then...
3rd Cage = lasts 5 seconds
If caged within 15 sec. then...
4th Cage = Immune for 15 seconds
**If the time between cages is greater than 15 seconds, the cage lasts the full 15 second duration
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I like this idea but it seems to harsh to the cager. To be fair, I would make the diminishing returns to be more like taking 2 seconds off the cage duration. Something like it goes from 15-13-11-9-7-5 then stays at 5. And if the time between cages is greater than 15, the cage lasts the full duration.
7: Make cage less binary: -75% dmg buff and buff/debuff effect, and +50% dmg resist, does not stack. No remove from combat effect in pvp since there is no resist.
Why? There are 2 things broken about cages: It removes the player from play, and that player cannot function. 2: Making it suppress or be resisted elimnates a survival tool from bubblers.
The basic idea behind cage is it removes a threat from the game, but the penalty is nothing can target that threat.
In keeping with that idea, it significantly diminishes the damage and debuff effect the target can do, but makes the target very difficult to damage.
How about making cage work as a -RNG power that drops all powers to a distance of 5' [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] and sets powers back to base damage [Ignore Enhancements & Buffs]? This will cover the gap of Villain's lack of -RNG, force the opponent into a more dangerous playstyle (or just wait it out), and remove the unfun aspect of being completely and totally useless.
A *really* good idea, but two possible problems:
-rng won't affect melee AT's, they already fight at that range.
Second, the caged player is fully targettable by all opponents. It would be a nasty debuff, but cage is supposed to make the target difficult to damage as well. Without that penalty it would be a really disgusting uberpower.
If it was possible to make it so all other players get a -rng debuff when targetting the caged player it might work, except for the melee jousting.
#5. It's not that big of a deal.
3. Being perma caged sucks and it still allows them to have someone constantly caged but also allows everyone to play. . .
I'd rather people just stop using cage and strategize around not having it. Not that it's overpowered or cheap or whatever. It's just that it sucks if you've already scheduled your night around a video game (which is supposed to be something you do for fun), stand around for an hour waiting for the match to get started, then finally get in the match and be unable to do anything at all. It makes you feel like you've completely wasted your night.
How about doubling or even tripling the recharge timer on Cage powers?
On the PvP wishlist we originally put:
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2. Cage is overpowered since it has no workable counters. Add cage resistance (i.e., a decrease in duration caged) to one or more ally buffs.
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Since complaints about cage are pretty popular. Most of the issue seems to spring out of permacaging: someone to be unaffectable for 90% of a match is supremely unfun. Part of it also seems to spring from the current popularity of 2 cage teams, and the growing acceptance of the theory that the best way to counter them is simply a better 2 cage team. Afterall, the ladder match for #1 ended with a 2 sonic team vs a 2 sonic team, and Freaks vs. OS saw 4 sonics brought into a match on one side.
However, there have been a few requests to take any comments of cage out, such as the following by Silent Method:
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2. Cage is overpowered since it has no workable counters. Add cage resistance (i.e., a decrease in duration caged) to one or more ally buffs.
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I disagree with this. Bringing cagers already has its downsides.. there are reasons people don't bring 8 sonics to a match. It's bad enough that teams find themselves switching toons in and out based on what the other teams are bringing. This would just lead to more of the same. Oh, you're bringing 2 sonic cagers? Brb, need to log in our <resist to cage buffers>. And, in actuality, people already do counter phase effectively either by extreme levels of defense buffs, or the more popular maneuver, phasing when an incoming cage is likely.
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I've heard the following suggestions:
1. Add cage resistance (of say 30% to 50%) to a long recharge buff that can't be used on many people. If you add 50% cage resistance to AB, for example, you still give the cager the ability to perma cage for a while by switching off the person with AB. You also have to pay the cost of the person with the resistance wasting AB while they're caged.
2. Adding cage resistance (20%-30%) to a permeable but relatively underused buffs such as O2 and Alkaloid would increase usage of those powers and sets as a counter to cage.
3. Add cage suppression of 10-15 seconds, so that after a person's been caged, he can't be caged immediately again. This doesn't affect a sonics ability to keep someone out of a match for the whole time he's in, but does mean that no one will be only affecting self for 90% of a match. Nerfs the -fun factor, without really nerfing cage.
4. Entirely rework defense and tohit. The fact that blasters are regularly caged through pb'd PFF with two forts is the problem, not permacaging.
5. Leave cage as is.
So, what do you think? If your ideas vaguely fit into one of the above 5 categories, beging your post with the number, than continue to explain (or don't, as it suits you). If not, go ahead and post your thoughts any way.
Hopefully we can get a clear majority on fix cage vs. don't touch cage, and leave it on or off the wishlist accordingly.