Not to nitpick or start fights (though that's already been done, forum PvP for the win eh?), but:
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Caging, as it is now, is really really dumb.
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Don't get me wrong, subjective opinions are fine, but it doesn't do an awful lot of good in furthering your point when you try to use them to, well, further your point. The fact that cages aren't fun for the people being caged, should be irrelevant to this discussion. That's the whole point of objective rules.
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The argument that keeping someone perma-dead does the same thing is ridiculous. There are counters to being killed. There is no direct counter to being perma-caged.
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On the contrary, there are counters, which are nearly identical in nature though require a bit more "extreme" effort and good timing: phasing, high amounts of defense / toHit buffs on the opponents, general evasion and staying out of range, et cetera.
I can see someone pointing out, "Well, those counters are way more extreme and difficult to perform," which isn't a valid counterargument because it's not like there are objective match-deciding points for caging players like there are for defeating players.
Furthermore, a lot of the arguments "against" cages in general seem to point out how amazingly broken and powerful the cage is. Such an argument is self-defeating in actual practice... yeah, people have said "why don't you run 8 cagers if they're so good?", which led to sarcastic "we never thought of that before" responses, but seriously: if it's as brokenly good as you claim it is, why not run 8 cagers?
...You don't, because bringing a cager inherently has costs associated with it that make bringing more than "a few" impractical. It balances itself out; all that remains is to learn how to counter the lineups that you face.
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five dollar words aside
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Indubitably!
(to quote Fricti0n)
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Nerf blaze!
it does too much damage and it kills my fun.
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ajax griefing, err caging, me in kickball matches kills my fun 
This thread is a poll asking the players what should be done about caging. How could you say that subjectivity has no place?
And I have never said that cage was OP. Its not. However, it does cause the -fun effect that was previously mentioned. And yes, there are counters to it, but nothing direct. Evading is something that can be used against any tactic, not just caging.
Lets look at Taunt, which would be pretty close to cage in terms of what it accomplishes. Assault and Break Frees both have taunt resist that lowers the duration of taunt. Here are two direct counters to taunt that players can use in addition to the global counters that can be used against everything (evading, phasing, killing whoever is doing it). Give cage some kind of direct counter and it will be on-par with other mechanics in the game.
Im not arguing that sonic or FF is OP and needs to be nerfed. Im arguing that the cage mechanic is broken and should be fixed. Cage allows someone to choose another player and effectively put them out of the match. With no direct counter, the caged player is left regretting even showing up.
-- Currently Playing --
Dexter Labrynth (SS/FA Brute)
Former member of Tribute and Victory Reborn
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On the contrary, there are counters, which are nearly identical in nature though require a bit more "extreme" effort and good timing: phasing, high amounts of defense / toHit buffs on the opponents, general evasion and staying out of range, et cetera.
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That's a little disingenuous, dont you think? Comparing perma-cage to perma death is ridiculous.
Is there a way to heal a cage off of someone? No. Then it's easier to keep someone from dieing than from being caged.
Is there a way to buff someone against being caged? No. So again, keeping someone alive is easier than keeping them from being caged. And please don't try the +defense or -to-hit argument please. That's a BS argument and you know it. Any arena PvPer here knows that buffing +Def is damn near useless with the obscene amount of to-hit available. Even Controller cages hit through PBed Fort and Purples without Aim.
Timing? So lets say I'm clairvoyant and I know that I'm about to be caged...what defense do I have? Phase Shift? So I make myself intangible so you don't have to? Awesome.
General evasion, you say? How do you evade the cage? I can evade a damage spike, sure, because it takes several high damage shots to take me down due to ally buffs...on the other hand, there are no ally buffs to help me evade a cage and it only takes 1 shot to tkae me out of the game. You can't evade a single shot from someone smart enough to put you on follow and who can hit through any amount of +Def you might have.
I voted #3, but I don't really care if cage stays the same. I'll live with it. But your arguments, big words and all, are intentionally obtuse, so please stop trying to obfuscate the issue with disingenuous assertions. 
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Im arguing that the cage mechanic is broken and should be fixed. Cage allows someone to choose another player and effectively put them out of the match. With no direct counter, the caged player is left regretting even showing up.
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Excellent summary.
I wasn't saying that you specifically said cages were OP; I was saying that some people said that.
Subjectivity insofar as "it's not fun" arguments, have no place in an objective rule. I wasn't "up" on the happenings involving storm team rules when the ladder first came around, but I imagine a similar argument was used.
I know people argued that it's not fun to play against storm teams, and there were allegations that there was no counter to a bunch of stormies and that they were overpowered, but the subjective "it's not fun" turned out to be irrelevant in the final decision, and the "there's no counter" argument turned out to be completely wrong.
The parallel to Taunt is a cookie-cutter argument that you could support any issue with... well, let's see, most epic shields that squishies get, have counters to Lethal damage (defense or resistance), regardless of any other effects (some resist fire as well, some resist cold as well, etc). This puts Assault Rifle at a disadvantage just like Taunt is, so we should give all hero shields some direct counter to all other damage so that it's on par with other damage types. ...Right?
If someone spends a match perma-caged, sorry, that's just how it goes. My advice would be to use any one of the counters I've listed before (disrupting opposing cagers and/or their support; using phase before an incoming cage; stacking defense on oneself or stacking -ACC on enemy; general evasion) to try to lessen the cager's effects.
As for the -fun value? Everyone's out to have fun on their own, but of course, the other team isn't going to bend over backward for you if you're not having a positive game experience, whether you're being TK'd, farmed, slowed, mezzed, or in this case, caged. That's just how it goes.
Defense and -ToHit is definitely not a BS argument. Have fun caging someone against a storm team with 2 or 3 Hurricanes on you... or while you've got RI on you when trying to hit a double-power-boosted-Fort Blaster.
With respect to timing, it's not a far leap in logic if you're being perma-caged to assume that when one drops, another one's coming. I can think of at least one JAL player who does this from time to time and manages to avoid being perma-caged... perhaps it's not as difficult as you think.
You know how sometimes you'll go to spike someone, maybe get off one Blaze if you're lucky and then someone calls "he's just running/jumping away" and that it's a futile chase? Pre-emptively avoiding an incoming cage (anticipating the next one, the same way as above) is an option, though admittedly it disrupts your own actions.
...Then again, so does running away from a TK, for instance. So "yes that's an option, but it's a bad one because it disrupts your gameplay" isn't a valid argument.
And please don't nitpick my word usage, nitpick my arguments instead I'm not trying to be high-minded, just trying to avoid misinterpretation.
I would agree that most of the arguments to nerf cage aren't terribly valid, and I certainly wouldn't be upset if Sonic Resonance remained just as it is. Additionally, I'm very hesitant to request any dev involvement in changes because they have a history of very heavy-handed changes (see Fire Blast, Dominators, Containment...).
That said, I do believe cage is a powerful tool that is often the deciding factor in arena matches. IF it needs to be changed, I'd favor the short supression on the same target from the same caster - nothing terribly extreme. And really my only argument is encouraging variety - variety of cage targets and variety of effective line-ups. I'd personally like it, but whether that's worth it or not, I don't know.
The -fun argument is one that basically is just saying that no one wants to show up to a match if they are going to be perma-caged. You say that they should just deal with it, but thats the problem. There is no way to deal with it. No matter what the person does, they are going to be taken out of the match.
Like Goldie said, heavy evading takes the person out without the use of a cage, so you cant even list that as a counter.
Killing the cager might make things slightly more difficult, but all he has to do is use one power on you every 15 seconds, which is not that hard to do. This is also forcing your entire team to change their focus, and most likely go after the less ideal option.
Using phase accomplishes the same thing as evading. You are taking yourself out while you do this. As soon as you go back to doing your primary role, youll be right back in cage.
And every team out there cannot be 3x storms, 2x FFs, 2x emps to try and stack enough defense to stop a single cage.
Every counter currently out there for cage sucks. Any of the ideas mentioned would go a long way to helping the issue...
- resist cage attribute on a current buff like ID or an inspiration
- supression so that a perma-cage is not possible.
And I really cant say that I understand your AR argument. From what I can gather, you are following the rule of thumb of buff under performing sets / powers instead of nerfing the overpowered ones. So your suggesting that every power in the game be made so that it doesnt have a counter? 1-shotting people with blaze wouldnt be a good idea IMO
-- Currently Playing --
Dexter Labrynth (SS/FA Brute)
Former member of Tribute and Victory Reborn
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And please don't nitpick my word usage, nitpick my arguments instead I'm not trying to be high-minded, just trying to avoid misinterpretation.
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I did nitpick your arguments. I don't agree with them. My point was that comparing perma-caging to perma-killing (target farming) is disingenuous as it is far easier to keep someone alive (and in the match) than it is to keep them from being caged (and forcibly kept from actually playing the game).
Are there counters to being perma-caged? Yes, and you can debate the merits of them all day long. That's why this thread was posted.
I guess my question for you is, why exactly would you be opposed to introducing some way to directly defend against caging? If this were two years ago, we could have this same argument regarding perma-taunting. The devs fixed it because there was no way, at the time, to shake the status effect and it sucked (by most accounts). So why shouldn't that happen now with cage?
I don't want to nerf cages, I want a way to defend against them directly, just like taunt. Why is that such a problem? Sonics won't go away like taunting tanks did, they bring enough to a match even without a perma-cage, to justify their spot on the roster. Tanks don't.
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I would agree that most of the arguments to nerf cage aren't terribly valid, and I certainly wouldn't be upset if Sonic Resonance remained just as it is. Additionally, I'm very hesitant to request any dev involvement in changes because they have a history of very heavy-handed changes (see Fire Blast, Dominators, Containment...).
That said, I do believe cage is a powerful tool that is often the deciding factor in arena matches. IF it needs to be changed, I'd favor the short supression on the same target from the same caster - nothing terribly extreme. And really my only argument is encouraging variety - variety of cage targets and variety of effective line-ups. I'd personally like it, but whether that's worth it or not, I don't know.
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That would be fine as well. Like I said before, I dont have a problem with the sonic cage power. I have a problem with someone getting perma-caged for an entire match (or being forced to sit at the top of a really high building the entire match to try and "evade" being caged)
-- Currently Playing --
Dexter Labrynth (SS/FA Brute)
Former member of Tribute and Victory Reborn
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Perma-caging is the very definition of "unfun". Most of us here have experience with using it and having it used on us. Now think about the impact it has on someone who tries out arena PvP by joining a kickball match as a healer or just the most annoying character on one of the teams. We can say that good sportsmanship will keep people from perma-caging but if the game mechanic results in a competitive advantage that is often not true. I have a sonic, I don't want to see the power of the set seriously reduced but I also don't want to spend another 15 minutes of a 20 minute match caged.
There needs to be counters to cage, some sort suppression mechanic, or a combination of the two.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
HOJ spawn camped me with perma cage
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And I really cant say that I understand your AR argument. From what I can gather, you are following the rule of thumb of buff under performing sets / powers instead of nerfing the overpowered ones. So your suggesting that every power in the game be made so that it doesnt have a counter? 1-shotting people with blaze wouldnt be a good idea IMO
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It was sarcasm.. kind of a joking parallel to the "taunt has counters but cage doesn't" argument
And yes, admittedly, some of the counters to a good cager are not always viable, but only in a somewhat similar fashion to death evasion and TK evasion (among other things) not always being viable.
From what I've seen, the argument with possible substance here is the one that cage has no counters. My problem with accepting that is that it doesn't seem like a lot of the methods have been given a fair shake by those attacking them.
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Killing the cager might make things slightly more difficult, but all he has to do is use one power on you every 15 seconds, which is not that hard to do. This is also forcing your entire team to change their focus, and most likely go after the less ideal option.
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Foremost, the latter part of that kind of subjectively assumes that all teams would rather farm something other than sonics.
But the real issue I have (again, going back to the counters not being given a fair shake) is that no, that's not "all" killing a cager does; it also takes away their Adrenalin Boost every time they get it, as well as their Hasten/Geas when they use it. Not to mention, they have to deal with OAS time and re-toggling their toggles, as well as catch up on any buffs they missed out on while trying to evade the incoming damage. That's a pretty significant counter, if you ask me.
Even disrupting the cagers is an option. I'm not saying 4 storms, 2 ff's, 2 emps is a must, but I'm certainly saying that RI from rads can make something of a difference in the short run, but more noticeably, a few Hurricanes can make caging a futile effort, especially for builds missing any of the following: Tactics, Aim, Power Build Up, Geas.
Even Phasing and evasion are still viable.. phasing, in particular. Emps, blasters, rads (as an example, not a sweeping generality that covers everything, of course) all have cyclical jobs... emps get particularly busy during an enemy spike, blasters and rads get particularly busy during their own spike. Not that they're never doing anything else, but it's certainly viable to phase in or hide from line-of-sight between one of those cycles in order to avoid a cage.
The subject isn't what happened to tankers a year or two ago, nor is it what will happen to the poor people who rolled sonics if cage were to be completely neutered altogether. Those topics make for great discussion but aren't exactly arguments.
Like I said, the only argument I've seen in favor of "doing something" to cage that holds any objective substance is the one that cages have no viable counter, and hopefully the above comments address that clearly enough.
Passing that, we're back to the unfun argument, which is a subjective one, so it's one that can't really be debated or put into objective rules. There's no rule against ruining someone else's fun, and if "unfun" is what caging honestly does to some people (I've been near-perma-caged on my blaster before.. can't say it was legitimately "unfun," but that's my own subjectivity, right?), then I don't know what else to say. But it's not another team's problem to accomodate those players' negative experience, nor is it the game's problem requiring dev intervention for the same purpose.
oh and i also think it is FUN as HELL perma caging someone,
so why are yall trying to -fun me???
I have been perma caged on my rad and my blaster lots
of times and yeah its annoying but using the techniques
aforementioned (my 5 dolla word ) i have still gotten kills
and still slapped my unresistable debuff on ppl so i was NOT
taken out of the game i was simply caged while playing one.
I have been caged plenty of times over the last few years
without complaint and i still gladly show up to fight 2 sonic
teams knowing i may be caged most of the time.
it hasnt disrupted my fun yet. ( it is in fact a mini game for
me to shrug cages and lead the cager around and makes my main job more challenging which to me, is fun)
And i have seen good blasters who were perma caged
STILL get the most kills in a match. Even when cage was
30 sec.
Now i cant argue that there is a real counter to cage
in the form of an insp or buff or that there is suppression like
other mezzes, and if everyone still complains even after
its duration was cut in half and it gets "looked at" again so be it.
But if we are nerfing things that are minus fun then please
take out storms, rads, blasters, unresistable dmg, defenders, unresistable debuff, trollers, containment, phase, stealth, EM , slows, -recharge, accolades, web nades, ice tanks, fire tanks,
spine regen, fear, confuse, taunt, placate, AS, stalkers,
corrupters, HOJ, PVE, having to get up to get food and/or drinks, BIOs, AC chat, indoor maps, noobs in SC, bounty
grifers, TP, TP foe, ganking,people who kill me, and people that dont die ez.
(unless i am playing on those toons or using those powers)
no one told me that my game experience would change
with online gameplay i pay to have fun only cage VIOLATES
THE EULA.
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HOJ spawn camped me with perma cage
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orly?
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But if we are nerfing things that are minus fun then please
take out storms, rads, blasters, unresistable dmg, defenders, unresistable debuff, trollers, containment, phase, stealth, EM , slows, -recharge, accolades, web nades, ice tanks, fire tanks,
spine regen, fear, confuse, taunt, placate, AS, stalkers,
corrupters, HOJ, PVE, having to get up to get food and/or drinks, BIOs, AC chat, indoor maps, noobs in SC, bounty
grifers, TP, TP foe, ganking,people who kill me, and people that dont die ez.
(unless i am playing on those toons or using those powers)
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i forgot insp and temps
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i forgot insp and temps
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Those are cheating.
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i forgot insp and temps
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Those are hax
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Like I said, the only argument I've seen in favor of "doing something" to cage that holds any objective substance is the one that cages have no viable counter, and hopefully the above comments address that clearly enough.
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That's the crux of the matter, and no, your above comments *don't* address that clearly enough.
Every "counter" you suggest is a generic counter that can be applied to any situation and any AT/powerset/player/etc. Every power in the game has a way to be directly countered in some way. Cage does not. Many believe it should.
Why do you believe it should remain unique and without a way to counter it?
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Not to nitpick or start fights (though that's already been done, forum PvP for the win eh?), but:
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Caging, as it is now, is really really dumb.
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Don't get me wrong, subjective opinions are fine, but it doesn't do an awful lot of good in furthering your point when you try to use them to, well, further your point. The fact that cages aren't fun for the people being caged, should be irrelevant to this discussion. That's the whole point of objective rules.
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The argument that keeping someone perma-dead does the same thing is ridiculous. There are counters to being killed. There is no direct counter to being perma-caged.
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On the contrary, there are counters, which are nearly identical in nature though require a bit more "extreme" effort and good timing: phasing, high amounts of defense / toHit buffs on the opponents, general evasion and staying out of range, et cetera.
I can see someone pointing out, "Well, those counters are way more extreme and difficult to perform," which isn't a valid counterargument because it's not like there are objective match-deciding points for caging players like there are for defeating players.
Furthermore, a lot of the arguments "against" cages in general seem to point out how amazingly broken and powerful the cage is. Such an argument is self-defeating in actual practice... yeah, people have said "why don't you run 8 cagers if they're so good?", which led to sarcastic "we never thought of that before" responses, but seriously: if it's as brokenly good as you claim it is, why not run 8 cagers?
...You don't, because bringing a cager inherently has costs associated with it that make bringing more than "a few" impractical. It balances itself out; all that remains is to learn how to counter the lineups that you face.
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you use your mouth prettier than a 20 dollar [censored]
I vote #5, leave cage alone.
