Discussion: NCsoft Acquires City of Heroes!
By
AaronH,
Posted on: 2007-11-06 13:55 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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I would guess that each of us, without exception*, has a favorite axe to grind and hopes it gets more attention with a larger dev team. 
*OK, maybe not EvilGeko.
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There's always MoG.
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You make EG sad...
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He can respec out of it an unlimited number of times: he'll be fine.
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You truly are a mean woman. 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Don't want a response - don't post. It's been like that since the dawn of the BBS era.
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Don't like what other people have to say, don't live here. Freedom of expression, been like that since the dawn of the nation. I'm sorry you don't like my opinion. I'm not going to censor myself for you nor will I not call you, and others, out on your rude behavior.
When a thread reaches this size people generally stop reading, but I'll just talk to the wall here and say:
I like that everyone is being given access to Villains. I hope it helps the redside population to increase. That everyone is being given access to Heroes is good too, though I imagine there were a lot more people out there sans Villains than sans Heroes.
And people who are objecting to this change are just being silly. How's having more people to play with a bad thing? It isn't. So you paid $50 for the game umpteen years ago, who cares? I got a brand new copy of CoH for $7 post-paid (got Villains Collector's Edition for the same price.) Paying next-to-nothing for the games these days is the norm, so just give it to people, no harm no foul.
And CoX now has its very own studio now with a larger Dev team to boot. That sounds great! It remians to be seen exactly what happens in the long run, but like many here I'm predicting the PvP in CoX will have a renaissance of development. NCSoft is a Korean company after all, and Koreans take PvP very seriously.
P.S. I'm a bit shocked and saddened at the low population numbers. This game has had some of the best content in its history added, yet the concurrent population is at its lowest point in 2 years? That's too bad, I was hoping those 30K subscribers were here to stay, but apparently they were just sight seeing.
I'd say at this point CoX's population has "matured", meaning it just isn't going to see a permanent increase in population. The good news is the core population is rock solid and isn't going anywhere.
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
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I dont want CoX to be on the way out. I dont want NCSoft to TREAT it like its on the way out. Id have been just fine with this announcement if it HADNT included gifts to valued customers.
But it did include gifts, and those gifts are aimed at just about everyone else who plays CoX. And then I go back and look at my Auto Assault gifts, and my Tabula Rasa gifts, and I shudder.
In the end, I really dont want gifts from NCSoft on a game I love. It just doesnt bode well.
Im happy to be proven wrong.
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We'll be happy to prove you wrong. I'd like to reiterate the statement, found in a couple places in the announcements: "We are now in a position to make a major reinvestment in the City of Heroes product line.
We're aren't staffing up to sit around and do nothing
Everyone here is very excited with the prospects and plans for the future!
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I wince at the uses of the words Product Line and IP in reference to the sale, it ranks right up there with Ex Lib saying "Players should see a difference".
I've seen a lot of voiced support for the CoH/V IP and "Product Line" but nothing confirmed for CoH itself past i12.
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hmmm. They have an opening for "Powers Designer".
hey Castle, can I use you as a reference?
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*cracks Fanboy upside the head with a Nerf bat*
Silly fool. We want Arcanaville to take that job.
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They can't afford her hourly rate.
That said, give Fanboy the job because he listens to Arcana.
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Bill's right. I steal ideas from... err, listen to Arcana all the time. She's definitely outside their price range too.
me? I'm a poor grad student. I'll work for free CoH and some ramen.
I'm not joking though. I'm really thinking of sending them a resume for this.
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Heck, they already get plenty of my time for free. I'd probably take the job as a hobby if I could telecommute. They probably wouldn't even need to provide training: its not like I don't know about The_I_Win_Button or anything.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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Again you're wrong. As other people have cited here Apple did much the same thing when they lowered the price on the iPhone by $100. Furthermore there are many other examples companies offering some sort of compensation where a fundamental change in the price structure of a product could be taken by customers as shafting them out of something.
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Read what I wrote, I said you had no legitimate expectation of this based on law or general business custom.
You have not suggested any legal necessity that NCSoft do this and you haven't shown that this is general business custom. Anecdotes like the IPhone fiasco don't show a custom. They show what one company is doing to stave off a substantial loss of goodwill among their early adopters.
This is not a comparable circumstance. Here a small group of players is being given a freebie. And another small group of players who recently purchased the second half of the game feel like they are being screwed, although they received a free month with their purchase. NCSoft isn't lowering the price of CoV or CoH, they're giving them away to people who already own the other.
You think you're out $5, the people who bought Iphones think they would have been out $100. Many of those people left their cellular carrier to buy that phone. The difference between the two situations is stark. And it still doesn't prove a custom.
Your request continues to be selfish and unreasonable in my estimation.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
On the subject of being refunded money for buying something that was later given away for free.
Can it be done? Sure.
Should it be done? Absolutely not. If NCSoft has to figure on the possibility of issuing 150,000 subscribers $5 each every time they give something away for free that once was a paid for deal, then they would have to not give these things away for free at all, or charge more for them upfront to cover the overhead.
There are thousands of people who bought CoV (bought mine 2 years ago), and I'm sure each of them has a different opinion on what a 'reasonable' and suspiciously convenient time frame would be for a refund window.
On the other hand, it's a free country; no harm in asking for free stuff.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
On a secondary side note...
I keep seeing people whine about the possibility of "in-game advertising" OH NOES.
When I first logged in to CoX, my first thought was, "I bet Toshiba would pay huge money to be on those billboards."
If NCSoft *doesn't* pursue passive real-world brands to put on the billboards, they'd be very, very foolish.
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I wince at the uses of the words Product Line and IP in reference to the sale [...]
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I cannot disagree more with this sentiment. A total lack of business and commercial sense, which would be implied if we NEVER heard these terms, has killed a vast array of terrific projects, products, services and concepts. You may want to proceed blissfully through your play experience without imagining that your game is being delivered to you partly by "evil" marketeers, but if I like something, I'd like to see it last. CoH can't survive in the long term without a thoroughgoing understanding of marketecture on the part of its controlling interest; no MMO can.
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[...] the possibility of "in-game advertising" OH NOES.
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I'm probably alone in this, but I would find a modern setting MORE immersive if I saw AT&T billboards and Coke cans at the bar in Pocky D. Just, for the love of the gods, keep it appropriate. Put billboard-style ads on billboards, put product-placement items in the appropriate locations, and so forth.
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I keep seeing people whine about the possibility of "in-game advertising" ... If NCSoft *doesn't* pursue passive real-world brands to put on the billboards, they'd be very, very foolish.
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I always thought so, as well. Unlike a lot of games, City has a modern setting that would seem to be perfect for that sort of thing. I don't especially want to see real-world ads on the City billboards, but it still seems like an opportunity lost. The last time I brought up the topic, which was long-long ago, people had the same sort of reactions. They threatened to quit if real ads ever appeared, and they imagined horror stories of advertisers dictating policies. Meh. As long as they're not animated, and they don't pop up dialogs on me, or anything else intrusive, I wouldn't really care. It would even make the setting more real-world-ish.
I'd bet that MUO will have in-game ads. They'll have a similar setting, and a big publisher with a vested interest in ad dollars and the necessary tech to implement it. Is that, by itself, a reason to pursue the idea? No, but in an age where Google became a titan through a decent search engine and pervasive advertising, it's something to consider.
Please try MA arc ID 351455, "Shard Stories: Scavenger's Hunt." Originally created for the Dr. Aeon contest, it explores the wild potential of one of the City's most concept-rich but content-poor settings: the Shadow Shard.
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marketecture
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Please, never use this "word" again. Don't make me leverage your synergy.
Please try MA arc ID 351455, "Shard Stories: Scavenger's Hunt." Originally created for the Dr. Aeon contest, it explores the wild potential of one of the City's most concept-rich but content-poor settings: the Shadow Shard.
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I wince at the uses of the words Product Line and IP in reference to the sale [...]
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I cannot disagree more with this sentiment. A total lack of business and commercial sense, which would be implied if we NEVER heard these terms, has killed a vast array of terrific projects, products, services and concepts. You may want to proceed blissfully through your play experience without imagining that your game is being delivered to you partly by "evil" marketeers, but if I like something, I'd like to see it last. CoH can't survive in the long term without a thoroughgoing understanding of marketecture on the part of its controlling interest; no MMO can.
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Those words and even the actions you're describing do nothing to ensure the "long term success" of the City of Heroes game, only the "brand name."
If you're the type of person who's fine with a "sequel" being released that is just going to require more super leet hardware to run and shelling out for a new game with a familiar brand name and starting over from scratch, then no, those terms won't bother you at all.
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marketecture
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Please, never use this "word" again. Don't make me leverage your synergy.
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OW! My benchmark!
Edited to rub it in: Neologisms FTW!
This post brought to you by the Thunderfire Campaign to Out-Weird the Internet.
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Those words and even the actions you're describing do nothing to ensure the "long term success" of the City of Heroes game, only the "brand name."
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I've said my piece on the topic. I think you're being naive if you think a product like an MMO can outlive its brand-success.
This post brought to you by the Thunderfire Campaign to Out-Weird the Internet.
Score so far: Thunderfire-0, Internet-157893678
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Those words and even the actions you're describing do nothing to ensure the "long term success" of the City of Heroes game, only the "brand name."
If you're the type of person who's fine with a "sequel" being released that is just going to require more super leet hardware to run and shelling out for a new game with a familiar brand name and starting over from scratch, then no, those terms won't bother you at all.
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But it is not the CoH "Game" that will bring NCSoft the most possible revenue over the long-haul, but the "Brand Name".
I'll keep this short, but just do some research for publically traded companies like Marvel or DC (via Warner reports):
Both Marvel and DC began their roots in comics. However, what brings in the most revenue for them, now? Not comics by a long-shot. Not even close. But, rather, licensing their I.P. to toys, merchandise, TV, cartoons, Films, et cetera. Leveraging and Licensing a "Brand Name" does just that, far more than being a "Game Publisher" or "Comic Book Publisher" ever will.
Trust me, I know. Being in the PnP RPG and novel/comic book business, I see it ever day and it HAS to be a part of the business plan (I.P. growth and potential licensing).
I talk to Shane Hensley a bit via email and at Cons (as we both have linking business relationships through other companies in the PnP Industry). Many will remember that Shane was once "Captain Mako" with Cryptic (and even did some of the design documentation for MUO) before leaving to once again work his PnP RPG company (Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment) full-time once again.
The strength in any game publishing . . . be it MMOs or PnP . . . is brand-name recognition and licensing. Look at all the WoW Licenses generating money for Blizzard (if not through royalties, then at least through the Minimum Guarantees that are paid for, up-front, from licensee or licensor). Look at the . . . in the past . . . Everquest licensing: collectible figures, RPG books, Novels, et cetera.
Look at all the Marvel and DC Licensing.
If leveraged right, super-heroes can be a very good commodity in animation, TV, and films.
NCSoft would be a questionable company if they didn't fully intend to do what is necessary to expand the City of Heroes/Villains I.P. into other branches.
Does this mean a new "not everything free" business model versus what we have now, to bring in more revenue for the game?
Does it mean a CoX Sequel?
I don't know. Only NCSoft will, and being publicly traded they can't release any information except before certain, regulated marks prior to release of something.
But the more revenue a Brand Name generates, the greater its licensing potential. The greater its licensing potential, the greater its potential growth.
Now, keep in mind, that follows because when a Brand Name is generating money, better licensees show an interest. Lincensees with the leverage and market penetration in their respective industries to do a lot of possible good for said Brand Name.
When a Brand Name is only Luke Warm, you get licensees like Eden Studios. I love Eden as a gamer. They make some great games.
But where is the CoH RPG for the past 3 years?
Where is the CoH CCG now from its licensee?
And THAT is not good for a licensor trying to build a brand name.
Unlike SWG (Star Wars), WAR (a long time franchise from Games Workshop), Age of Conan (that is obvious), Star Trek Online, Stargate Worlds Online, Pirates of the Burning Sea (following the coat-tails of the Disney movie craze), and a host of other MMOs due out . . . CoX is its own I.P. that, obviously I am sure, NCSoft wants to leverage in the growing super-hero licensing market (and it is).
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But where is the CoH RPG for the past 3 years?
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From the To Make You Cry files: Darren Watts* of Hero Games said at one point on their boards that they approached Cryptic/NCsoft about licensing and were rebuffed. Now that the CoH RPG's reputation is in the toilet after 3 years of vaporware from Eden, he said he's no longer interested.
* Might have been Steve Long, but I'm pretty sure it was Darren.
This post brought to you by the Thunderfire Campaign to Out-Weird the Internet.
Score so far: Thunderfire-0, Internet-157893678
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Those words and even the actions you're describing do nothing to ensure the "long term success" of the City of Heroes game, only the "brand name."
If you're the type of person who's fine with a "sequel" being released that is just going to require more super leet hardware to run and shelling out for a new game with a familiar brand name and starting over from scratch, then no, those terms won't bother you at all.
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But it is not the CoH "Game" that will bring NCSoft the most possible revenue over the long-haul, but the "Brand Name".
I'll keep this short, but just do some research for publically traded companies like Marvel or DC (via Warner reports):
Both Marvel and DC began their roots in comics. However, what brings in the most revenue for them, now? Not comics by a long-shot. Not even close. But, rather, licensing their I.P. to toys, merchandise, TV, cartoons, Films, et cetera. Leveraging and Licensing a "Brand Name" does just that, far more than being a "Game Publisher" or "Comic Book Publisher" ever will.
Trust me, I know. Being in the PnP RPG and novel/comic book business, I see it ever day and it HAS to be a part of the business plan (I.P. growth and potential licensing).
I talk to Shane Hensley a bit via email and at Cons (as we both have linking business relationships through other companies in the PnP Industry). Many will remember that Shane was once "Captain Mako" with Cryptic (and even did some of the design documentation for MUO) before leaving to once again work his PnP RPG company (Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment) full-time once again.
The strength in any game publishing . . . be it MMOs or PnP . . . is brand-name recognition and licensing. Look at all the WoW Licenses generating money for Blizzard (if not through royalties, then at least through the Minimum Guarantees that are paid for, up-front, from licensee or licensor). Look at the . . . in the past . . . Everquest licensing: collectible figures, RPG books, Novels, et cetera.
Look at all the Marvel and DC Licensing.
If leveraged right, super-heroes can be a very good commodity in animation, TV, and films.
NCSoft would be a questionable company if they didn't fully intend to do what is necessary to expand the City of Heroes/Villains I.P. into other branches.
Does this mean a new "not everything free" business model versus what we have now, to bring in more revenue for the game?
Does it mean a CoX Sequel?
I don't know. Only NCSoft will, and being publicly traded they can't release any information except before certain, regulated marks prior to release of something.
But the more revenue a Brand Name generates, the greater its licensing potential. The greater its licensing potential, the greater its potential growth.
Now, keep in mind, that follows because when a Brand Name is generating money, better licensees show an interest. Lincensees with the leverage and market penetration in their respective industries to do a lot of possible good for said Brand Name.
When a Brand Name is only Luke Warm, you get licensees like Eden Studios. I love Eden as a gamer. They make some great games.
But where is the CoH RPG for the past 3 years?
Where is the CoH CCG now from its licensee?
And THAT is not good for a licensor trying to build a brand name.
Unlike SWG (Star Wars), WAR (a long time franchise from Games Workshop), Age of Conan (that is obvious), Star Trek Online, Stargate Worlds Online, Pirates of the Burning Sea (following the coat-tails of the Disney movie craze), and a host of other MMOs due out . . . CoX is its own I.P. that, obviously I am sure, NCSoft wants to leverage in the growing super-hero licensing market (and it is).
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And that's the sort of marketing genius that brought the world "New Coke".
Bottom line, as a consumer, I don't care how much money NCSoft can make off of other products using the "brand name" of the product Im currently paying for. What I care about is the continued support of the current product, which the marketing terms and disclaimer laden speech is not in any real way ensuring. The second I catch wind that NCS is working on a "sequel" for higher end PCs and possibly PS3, and there's still no concrete plans for the current product beyond the next issue, I'm going to withdraw that support and see what else can be found. Heck, even the new job announcements that everyone is championing as NCSoft support for this game are actually stating the positions are for the "City of Heroes/Villains franchise.
The only things I've heard mentioned about the original game itself is that issue 12 is currently being worked on, and any longer term plans aren't being discussed at this time.
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But where is the CoH RPG for the past 3 years?
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From the To Make You Cry files: Darren Watts* of Hero Games said at one point on their boards that they approached Cryptic/NCsoft about licensing and were rebuffed. Now that the CoH RPG's reputation is in the toilet after 3 years of vaporware from Eden, he said he's no longer interested.
* Might have been Steve Long, but I'm pretty sure it was Darren.
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I had lunch with Steve Long at GenCon (at the sports restaurant across the street from the main Con) and discussed (amongst business possibilities between our respective companies) City of Heroes. Let's just say it was a brief discussion.
Early on in our talks about the novels this summer with NCSoft, we mentioned the possibility of salvaging the RPG concept. They were pretty uniterested. Whether this is because Eden is still clinging on to the contractual term-of-life like a drowning man in a tsunami, or just a general lack of interest in licensing it again after the Eden fiasco, is unknown to me. That isn't the type of question one asks a potential licensor.
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The second I catch wind that NCS is working on a "sequel" for higher end PCs and possibly PS3, and there's still no concrete plans for the current product beyond the next issue . . .
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No, THAT is the exact thinking that brought us New Coke and, as far as the MMO Industry is concerned, the NGE over in SWG.
A lack of understanding of one's consumer-base.
Even IF a CoX 2 is designated as a real possibility by NCSoft, I can't see them completely abandoning the original anymore than SOE shut-down EQ1 when EQ2 launched (and EQ1 is STILL supported, mind you).
I predicted to expect a change in business model for CoX over the next year, not a DOOM or end to CoX. Sooner or later, though . . . yes . . . SOME of the money pumped into "Cox 1" or just "CoX", if you will (if there isn't a sequel), will be put into other projects and endeavors. That is just the nature of MMOs, and general product shelf life in general.
As a recovering lawyer, Steve is by default opposed to licensed products, not to mention his experience working on the Star Trek and Lord of the Rings RPGs. Licensed RPG projects can suck a lot depending on the licensor.
This post brought to you by the Thunderfire Campaign to Out-Weird the Internet.
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As a recovering lawyer, Steve is by default opposed to licensed products, not to mention his experience working on the Star Trek and Lord of the Rings RPGs. Licensed RPG projects can suck a lot depending on the licensor.
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On a side note (unrelated to your quote, actually) . . . I may not be a player of HERO or Champions, myself (though many in my company are) . . . Steve Long and Shane Hensley are probably my two favorite people in the current industry. I have a lot of respect for both of them and what they have done; especially when beating the odds they have faced as publishers.
All the changes sound positive, I'm looking forward to seeing where they go from here.
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But where is the CoH RPG for the past 3 years?
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From the To Make You Cry files: Darren Watts* of Hero Games said at one point on their boards that they approached Cryptic/NCsoft about licensing and were rebuffed. Now that the CoH RPG's reputation is in the toilet after 3 years of vaporware from Eden, he said he's no longer interested.
* Might have been Steve Long, but I'm pretty sure it was Darren.
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I had lunch with Steve Long at GenCon (at the sports restaurant across the street from the main Con) and discussed (amongst business possibilities between our respective companies) City of Heroes. Let's just say it was a brief discussion.
Early on in our talks about the novels this summer with NCSoft, we mentioned the possibility of salvaging the RPG concept. They were pretty uniterested. Whether this is because Eden is still clinging on to the contractual term-of-life like a drowning man in a tsunami, or just a general lack of interest in licensing it again after the Eden fiasco, is unknown to me. That isn't the type of question one asks a potential licensor.
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The second I catch wind that NCS is working on a "sequel" for higher end PCs and possibly PS3, and there's still no concrete plans for the current product beyond the next issue . . .
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No, THAT is the exact thinking that brought us New Coke and, as far as the MMO Industry is concerned, the NGE over in SWG.
A lack of understanding of one's consumer-base.
Even IF a CoX 2 is designated as a real possibility by NCSoft, I can't see them completely abandoning the original anymore than SOE shut-down EQ1 when EQ2 launched (and EQ1 is STILL supported, mind you).
I predicted to expect a change in business model for CoX over the next year, not a DOOM or end to CoX. Sooner or later, though . . . yes . . . SOME of the money pumped into "Cox 1" or just "CoX", if you will (if there isn't a sequel), will be put into other projects and endeavors. That is just the nature of MMOs, and general product shelf life in general.
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What would a CoH 2 bring that couldn't be done with expanding the original? EQ2 came about because the original Eq engine was too limited. But CoH is incredibly flexible. I could easily imagine the war walls coming down, new AT's and Powersets, new combo systems, etc all within the same game framework.
We could even say that we're playing CoH 10 already.
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okay if you guys are in the carolinas I am so there.
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Sorry, Washington state here, though once I'm done with my software development classes in June, I'm hoping to have a good reason to move to Mountain View.
Here's to hoping this announcement is DOUBLE good news for me. Staffing up GOOD!
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Uh-oh, do I sense a Digipen student? You know its funny I keep finding out about other CoX players around me but have yet to actually meet any of them lol. Heck one even works in the building acros the street from where I live.
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My self I see cryptic/MS suing NCSoft/CoX if a CoX2 is going to be worked on
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On what basis? This deal allows precisely that outcome.
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Not sure really but its kinda of a gut feeling similar to what happen with Marvel vs Cryptic. It might even be DC this time.