Thread Title: PvP SG Ladder Entries
By
BattleWraith,
Posted on: 2007-07-13 16:27 in Everything about PvP
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The results would be the exact same as they are now by that means, and I also disagree that it wouldnt give an incentive to run up the score. A dead blaster is one who cannot kill. The best defensive is sometimes an aggressive offense.
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I don't think people care about that as much as the fact that, you know, you established rules for teams that don't get to fight each other in the round robin, confirmed them on the boards, and then just tossed them aside.
Color me crazy, but a kk in arena chat is hardly a binding agreement, and having various JALites say "it's listed" 20 times doesn't make it any more so.
Although, I think what actually irked me the most was saying that you didn't read what people wrote. Lots of people made very good arguments, and you'll see that a consensus ends up being reached by everyone who's not in JAL that, well, if the rules say X is what happens when two groups don't get to fight in the designated period of the round robin, that X is what should happen.
Realize, I have no authority in any of this. This is simply a difference of opinion, I view the matter one way, some of you view it another. Regardless, the ladder rankings are extremely fluid and no one group will own their rung for long. The main thing is to spur on matches and activity, which I think this ladder will hopefully accomplish.
We wish every group the best of luck.
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...it is also not the point, as NDX was one of my favorite SG's out there and I pray they can get their team up and running again.
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If that's true, then maybe you could avoid disparaging us as a group just because Putz hurt your feelings. We were never anything but courteous to you and you're acting like a [male chicken]-sucker.
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...but when you have to work fulltime, go to graduate school, and feed two infant babies every couple hours/change diapers/etc., then maybe you'll understand. Until then, I could care less....I'm happy giving people who can give 110% to the team a chance to shine...
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Which is why I "retired" from test PvP as opposed to joining up with anyone else. Believe it or not, there are other adults who play this game and have responsibilities outside of Co* that take precedent...that being said, maybe I should submit my application to FoL so I can pwn vicariously through Ed, Ownage, and Putz...I mean, hell, just because I don't play for "my team" doesn't mean "my team" doesn't kick [censored] or that I shouldn't get any credit for it. Right?
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I don't think people care about that as much as the fact that, you know, you established rules for teams that don't get to fight each other in the round robin, confirmed them on the boards, and then just tossed them aside.
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A rule was never included in for forfeits because of the nature of the beast. I felt that I should leave out anything on the matter because I had hoped it would not happen, and because people could get to thinking and really screwed over another group. For instance: In an initial ranking process for a ladder where it is left upon the individuals to schedule their own matches and a rule where a match that does not happen will negatively affect the results, there is much trust in the groups who wish to participate that they will indeed make the effort to challenge all. My worries at the beginning with doing it this way instead of making the times for each match myself, were that a group could be made up that really wasnt a PvP group yet they signed up followed all the rules and went to test on the night of the events and fought everyone except one group they had decided they would not face. Now the group they would not face is awarded a loss, and effectively who ever would have organized a scheme as such would have hurt a single group. Or the participating groups could have gotten together and said everyone refuse a challenge by Freaks that way they will have no wins and no losses and be awarded the bottom rung of the ladder. Now I didnt really expect something like that to happen, and that is by no means what did occur, but they are similar in a sense. Esk was challenged they even accepted the challenge, then shortly after challenged they informed JFaL that some of their members had logged and they could no longer fight them. Esk could have chosen to fight them with fewer members or simply not show to a match they had accepted. While the actual fight never occurred the groups in question were in deed accepting that the fight was immanent, and therefore I would consider the group who showed for it the winner when the opponent does not show.
Allow me to ask you this: Whirligig presented a roster and have stated they wish to participate in the ladder, yet they did no matches and therefore have a better standing than a group who had entered and acquired no wins. A group that has no wins has the same amount of wins, zero. So they effectively tie. To break the tie we would look at who beat whom, they did not fight one another so we then go to MoV. In MoV Whirligig has a 0 a team with only losses has a negative MoV. Now I did not touch on this in the rules but I think we can all agree that this should not be the case. Again this is a similar case, but not what we are discussing. I made the deicision in calling it a forfeit and a win going to JFaL because it is the right thing to do. Esk had agreed to the fight but could not field a team due to members
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Although, I think what actually irked me the most was saying that you didn't read what people wrote. Lots of people made very good arguments, and you'll see that a consensus ends up being reached by everyone who's not in JAL that, well, if the rules say X is what happens when two groups don't get to fight in the designated period of the round robin, that X is what should happen.
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Allow me to explain that a little more clearly then. I left Friday afternoon for the weekend and had no access to internet at my destination, so I couldnt keep up to date while I was away. I left to come home at 5:30 this morning after getting 3 hours of sleep and maybe a total of 10 hours of sleep all weekend (it was a long weekend amongst friends and family). I got home this morning and checked the forums quickly and found the thread had doubled and my inbox was loaded. I checked the inbox first and every message was the same question, I went to the thread and skimmed it and made a response. I was tired and after that decided to get some sleep. So when I said i didnt take the time to read the entire thread it was not because I didnt care what people had to say (even though now that I have most of it was a whose [Censored] argument) it was because I figured people wanted to know and I did not want to take the time to read the novel the thread had become while I was still so tired, and instead make a quick response so people could have some insight into my thought on the matter then hit the sack.
|� |�| |�| |� |�| |�����| |����| |� |�| |��� /���
~SNES, NES, GCN, N64, GB, Wii, GBC, GBA, SP, DS~|
|_| \_| |_| |_| \_| .. |__| .. |____| |_| \_| |___/ \___/
and people wonder why pvpers think the pvpec is nothing but a joke. i guess in the end, it just comes to whichever group that can [Censored] the best.
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and people wonder why pvpers think the pvpec is nothing but a joke. i guess in the end, it just comes to whichever group that [Censored] the best.
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"The End" - Fates
moar lima beans plz?
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Your attitude sure did change quick
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This has been my attitude from the beginning...every post I have made has said none of this even matters...rankings will come and go, lol.
Just because a team starts out at the number 1 ranking does not mean they will be ranked accordingly a month, a week, or a day from now...to be honest, they could've just put the team names in a hat and just randomly assigned the ladder rankings, who the hell cares? lol
The best teams will rise to the top, the inexperienced teams will settle towards the bottom, to get so worked up about something so meaningless was silly. Which I told that dude groebuck from the beginning.
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Allow me to ask you this: Whirligig presented a roster and have stated they wish to participate in the ladder, yet they did no matches and therefore have a better standing than a group who had entered and acquired no wins. A group that has no wins has the same amount of wins, zero. So they effectively tie. To break the tie we would look at who beat whom, they did not fight one another so we then go to MoV. In MoV Whirligig has a 0 a team with only losses has a negative MoV. Now I did not touch on this in the rules but I think we can all agree that this should not be the case. Again this is a similar case, but not what we are discussing. I made the deicision in calling it a forfeit and a win going to JFaL because it is the right thing to do. Esk had agreed to the fight but could not field a team due to members
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this whole section to me says you don't understand the own rules that you laid out. whirligig didn't fight anyone.... thus they're 0-7 for that many teams being in the ladder. cause as the rule, that suddenly doesn't apply anymore, states they were in the ladder and didn't fight anyone so they lost all their matches and everyone else in the ladder also recieved a loss for whirligig not fighting (this isn't a big deal because it a loss to everyone and washes out as far as the major standings are concerned). so then whirligig has all losses and another team has all losses and the next tie breaker would be a head up competition.... well that didn't happen so that doesn't settle the tie. the next tie breaker in line is the amount of points/kills these SGs got during the round robin phase. well obviously whirligig couldn't have had a single kill at all and the other team(s) that actually did compete in the round robin would then get the tie breaker because they would have had at least one kill.
too bad that your own rules don't mean anything at all.
the real question would be where to rank "the end" and whirligig since they have no diffinitive tie breakers to establish order between them.
that is if we were to actually follow the rules that were clearly stated before anything even started to happen at all... too bad the rules obviously mean nothing anymore (yay, tier 3s anyone? holding off to the last moment to call all in? maybe even having fake DCs, to get maps you prefer?? all cheese is open when rules stop being followed to the LETTER). also great job understanding and up holding your own rules for this, mr. pvpec chair person and "commisioner of the ladder" you're making everything pointless before it has a chance to even begin.
sure it might be "just" to give jal the win, they would have won if they actually fought ESK, i'll even conceed that much.... however, the rules are the rules and life isn't fair. you have to do what the rules say or all the rules are pointless from that point forward. it's just the way it breaks down, it's a tough break for JAL.... and if they're such a great team like psypunk keeps insisting then they'll beat FoL and OS and take the spot back and keep it in two weeks time.
also just for extra kicks, that "KK" could have been in responce to a number of things that were said before in AC and not directly meant for JFAL. those screenies don't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that ESK agreed to a match with JFAL immediately following their other match.
i suppose this is all a moot point now. but GG, thanks for establishing early that the rules are very easily bent to favor whomever you want to be nice towards at that moment in time.
The MoV for Whirligig would be 0, as they have no score. The groups who have fought and lost do have an MoV, and if they have no wins at all then that MoV is a negative. No MoV = 0. 0 > any negative number.
When a group agrees to a challenge then does not show, the blame should not be laid on the head of those who did show. If you would prefer we go exactly as the rules state then the PvP Captains can make this known here and we can rank groups accordingly. I find abandoning logic and fairness silly. In matters like this it is wise to have some arbitraion after the fact. I think it would be difficult to convince SW, ESK, and HR that Whirligig and The End out rank them and didnt even attend a single match.
Im not here to argue with you, and your accusations of an affinity toward any group in the ladder is laughable at best. If the captains of the SGs wish us to go exactly as the rules state then they can state it here and we will go on exactly how the round robin was presented.
To those of you who wish to state that the PvPEC is a joke and does nothing for PvP, I ask: What have you done for PvP? Do you help it flourish or do you sit by and make petty arguments and attack all those around you? Do you help PvP grow or do you give reason for people to not participate? Stop the degredation of PvP. People complain that the devs pay it no attention, and the devs say it is a very small part of the community. The answer seems simple enough, get more people to join it and the devs will take note. Constant badgering of people does in no way make them wish to play with you.
|� |�| |�| |� |�| |�����| |����| |� |�| |��� /���
~SNES, NES, GCN, N64, GB, Wii, GBC, GBA, SP, DS~|
|_| \_| |_| |_| \_| .. |__| .. |____| |_| \_| |___/ \___/
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To those of you who wish to state that the PvPEC is a joke and does nothing for PvP, I ask: What have you done for PvP? Do you help it flourish or do you sit by and make petty arguments and attack all those around you? Do you help PvP grow or do you give reason for people to not participate? Stop the degredation of PvP. People complain that the devs pay it no attention, and the devs say it is a very small part of the community. The answer seems simple enough, get more people to join it and the devs will take note. Constant badgering of people does in no way make them wish to play with you.
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Thats a catch 22. In the last 2+ years what have the devs done to maintain the pvp community let alone encourage it to grow? The promised tournaments? Bases? The list of things they have failed to do goes on and on. Seems to me pvp in this game survives because of the actions of the players themselves, not the devs. Maybe its a minority because until recently the dev's barley even acknowleged it existed. Just look at when cov was released for example. Remember all the groups that started villain groups on freedom because it was the "official" server? Remember the massive influx of new players on every server that left within a few months?
Perhaps if the devs had at some point stopped to address the issues that exist in pvp or even in this game in general in a reasonable timeframe more players would have remained.
Basically everyone i talk to that left this game for wow says the same thing. Coh is miles ahead gameplay wise. But the devs pissed the potential of the game and the community away.
The ball was in their hands and they dropped it.
Yes pvp is a small part of the community, how can it be anything but when the devs never address its core issues and allow the majority of the playerbase to leave the game.
What do the devs ability, or lack thereof, have to do with the PvPEC?
I have stated to you that Thursday is a bad day for us. I work evenings, and theres a couple others that can't make it either. If you're in such a rush to get it done sooner as you seem so eager, then move it up to Wednesday, and you get to fight us a day earlier. Otherwise it'll have to be next Tuesday at the earliest.
Let me know whether you prefer this Wednesday the 8th, or Tuesday the 14th.
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The MoV for Whirligig would be 0, as they have no score. The groups who have fought and lost do have an MoV, and if they have no wins at all then that MoV is a negative. No MoV = 0. 0 > any negative number.
When a group agrees to a challenge then does not show, the blame should not be laid on the head of those who did show. If you would prefer we go exactly as the rules state then the PvP Captains can make this known here and we can rank groups accordingly. I find abandoning logic and fairness silly. In matters like this it is wise to have some arbitraion after the fact. I think it would be difficult to convince SW, ESK, and HR that Whirligig and The End out rank them and didnt even attend a single match.
Im not here to argue with you, and your accusations of an affinity toward any group in the ladder is laughable at best. If the captains of the SGs wish us to go exactly as the rules state then they can state it here and we will go on exactly how the round robin was presented.
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right.... whirligig and the end don't have a MoV = 0, that is if you followed you're own rules. they both have negative MoVs (that is MoVs that are less than 0), since they didn't fight anyone at all. they'd have the same damn record as any team that lost every match. because as YOUR RULES state, not fighting someone equals a loss. i don't see how you have such a hard time understanding your own rules....
following your rules would put whirligig and the end at the bottom of the ladder. somehow you don't understand that though..... maybe you need a picture drawn for you and someone holding your hand explaining it?
also going off of all the posts by all these various SGs, i believe that most of the SG leaders and even their members would prefer to go by the rules, as they are stated.... and not try to bend them for each individual circumstance that may or may not come to pass....
please re-read your own post stating how the round robin was going to be handled and what would happen if teams didn't fight one another, apply those rules and then go to your rules about the tie breaks and apply those rules. as they have already been plainly stated.
also i didn't say you had an affinity for any SG, you're reading something into my post that i didn't say. all i said is that you decided to bend the rules for the sake of being nice. just because you're being nice to someone or a group doesn't mean that you <3 them and do all you can to help them constantly. it just means you're being nice for that moment in time.
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I have stated to you that Thursday is a bad day for us. I work evenings, and theres a couple others that can't make it either. If you're in such a rush to get it done sooner as you seem so eager, then move it up to Wednesday, and you get to fight us a day earlier. Otherwise it'll have to be next Tuesday at the earliest.
Let me know whether you prefer this Wednesday the 8th, or Tuesday the 14th.
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Ajax,
As I explained elsewhere, I only proposed Thursday because I was notified some people were going to be out of town next week. Well, one of those individuals just quit our SG, so that is not as big of an issue. I apologize for not remembering what nights were bad for FOL based on our conversation a few days ago.
For now, we'll shoot for Tuesday the 14th...
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When a group agrees to a challenge then does not show, the blame should not be laid on the head of those who did show. If you would prefer we go exactly as the rules state then the PvP Captains can make this known here and we can rank groups accordingly. I find abandoning logic and fairness silly. In matters like this it is wise to have some arbitraion after the fact. I think it would be difficult to convince SW, ESK, and HR that Whirligig and The End out rank them and didnt even attend a single match.
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I actually think a vote is a fabulous idea.
It seems reasonable to say that groups that didn't fight any ladder matches don't count as being entered in the ladder, and thus are unranked. That seems to be the majority opinion, but why not have SG leaders put in a vote on that?
I think the best way to do it would to be to count only matches that happened, and that's what many people did recommend in the thread as a way of applying fairness. So then these would be the options to vote on:
Option one: Do exactly as the ladder rules prescribe. That means fights that didn't happen count as a loss for both teams.
Option two: Do the "TGIA decides" method, where TGIA uses "logic and fairness" in deciding if a fight counts as scheduled and thus able to be forfeited. Be forewarned: kk is a binding contract!
Option three: Count only the fights that happened. So, if you group only had a chance to fight 4 teams, losing one match and winning three, you'd be 3-1 without being penalized for not getting a chance to fight the other two teams.
Wow, I can't believe I've missed this thread until now. Great stuff!
1. Really funny about how all the other groups are so mad about JAL being #1. Considering that being #1 at the start is COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS. It means NOTHING. Pretty obvious that most people in this game care more about "being #1" than actually playing the game.
2. Groebuck, do you even do arena PvP? I thought the "FoL nuthugger" thing was a joke.....but I guess it's the literal truth? You spend like 2 hours a day talking trash about JAL and praising FoL.....while having NOTHING to do with either group.....or arena PvP in general. What is wrong with you, seriously?
I don't understand how you guys can be such [censored] to the PVEC when they go out of their way to set somthing up like this for you..
This is going to be the last time I post here, I swearz...
I really don't think that the "match" between JAL and ESK should count for any SG, for the simple reason that it never happened. If there was an attempt of a match, such as a 6v7 or 6v6, then it wouldn't matter, but since the match never happened a winner/loser can't be determained no matter if JAL was heavily favored.
JAL is a great SG, obviously they have skill and have the ability to beat the best this game has to offer. With that said I don't believe it is fair to all the other great SGs to be punished, so to speak, by getting placed under them when they have a superior record.
I just think it is BS what has happend because of this thred.
my sig says it all..
I diddn't believe some people would actually be affected
by all of this [censored], but I guess if you ride an sg to the ground as hard as you guys do, it's only a matter of time before people break..
Just put FoL 1st on the ladder and call it good.
I'll be on fury.
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I just think it is BS what has happend because of this thread
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kk fixed
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Just put FoL 1st on the ladder and call it good.
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Strange...since, as far as I've read, all the FoLers have been saying that OS deserved the top spot.
Kinda shoots a hole into the idiotic theories about them just being selfish and wanting the #1 seed. Maybe it's just that they expect the rules to be observed as laid out beforehand, and not changed on a whim to accommodate the *actual* crybabies.
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I'll be on fury.
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Can I have your stuff?
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I just think it is BS what has happend because of this thred.
my sig says it all..
I diddn't believe some people would actually be affected
by all of this [censored], but I guess if you ride an sg to the ground as hard as you guys do, it's only a matter of time before people break..
Just put FoL 1st on the ladder and call it good.
I'll be on fury.
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sorry for breaking your sg with the truth, and OS should be #1
lol @ u