[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe thats technically true, I think its your opinion
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you sure its not just my opinion?
[ QUOTE ]
You aren't seeing ours.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is not directed to you but....I really don't care what some of you are seeing or believing.
[ QUOTE ]
Theres a difference between 'speaking the truth' and 'stating your opinion', Demilion. Your post was obviously directed towards those of us who aren't fans of threadjacking. So you decide to call it 'elitist'. If we are elitist, why are we trying to preserve posts by *everyone* and not just ourselves?
[/ QUOTE ]
Got your attention there didn't I? You see Dirtwolf, if you ever did put yourself in other positions of players you would understand of what I meant by elitist.
Makes ya get a little fired up doesn't it? 
[ QUOTE ]
A good example of selective moderation, is a thread on one of the other boards where someone offered a bounty on another player... it's been there the whole time I've been participating in the boards.
[/ QUOTE ]
A comment on this:
Yes, that post should have been removed immediately, and for whatever reason, it wasn't. It quickly turned into a mockfest full of tangents, surrealism, Smurfs, Klingon language lessons and general observations. Recently, it was moved to the Games section, where it is now approaching 400 pages of weirdness.
So yes, this should have been modded from the get go, but it has now involved into a sentient life-force...will you now deny it the right to live on?
Back on topic:
Protector is sweetness and light compared to other server forums I frequent. We respect each other, and enjoy our time together. We, in my opinion, police ourselves just fine.
Finally...I like pie.
[ QUOTE ]
Having people say they don't threadjack important threads is belittling to someone who does get their thread jacked, because you're basically saying that their issue isn't important.
[/ QUOTE ]
You know I did say that!
Important thread!
translation: Any thread posing a question or subject that is important to the OP!
Go looky on all my post and see where I threadjack!
On the thread jack post!
Dirt-
I completly agree with you on every statement there!
You also know I agreed with you about the Fact / fiction posting thread.
I told you that I was unaware of the importance that it meant to you and several others inregards to that thread.
If I have to state that Publically I WILL! (I did)
But Fact is This will be a persistant problem no matter what anyone says.
Again I say this is going to have to be something worked on by everyone involved.
I would ask from the devs to define (other than saying "stay on topic") "threadjacking" in their eyes.
Please give an example of an appropriate threadjack and an inappropriate thread jack. I think their is a fine line between the two. Defining the problem is always the first step in coming up with a solution. I have found by not doing this appropriately "KNEE-JERK" reactions take place.
In our case I think there is a scale: On-topic, nearly on-topic, off-topic, humourous banter, debate, arguing, being spiteful/personal attacks, to any worse possible offenses.
Where is the grey area where it is okay?
There are forums for information. This is the protector forum where we have COMMUNITY.
Community includes banter, or life becomes boring. We have sticky threads for information (Maybe we just need to add a few more)
Just my two cents.
View the story of W.A.R.F.A.C.E. and Septimus Bane here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6785073/1/Meus_Profiteor#
my email chrismfears99@yahoo.com
I like your two cents Warface.
[ QUOTE ]
I would ask from the devs to define (other than saying "stay on topic") "threadjacking" in their eyes.
Please give an example of an appropriate threadjack and an inappropriate thread jack. I think their is a fine line between the two. Defining the problem is always the first step in coming up with a solution. I have found by not doing this appropriately "KNEE-JERK" reactions take place.
In our case I think there is a scale: On-topic, nearly on-topic, off-topic, humourous banter, debate, arguing, being spiteful/personal attacks, to any worse possible offenses.
Where is the grey area where it is okay?
There are forums for information. This is the protector forum where we have COMMUNITY.
Community includes banter, or life becomes boring. We have sticky threads for information (Maybe we just need to add a few more)
Just my two cents.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think Warface here nailed it down pretty good. Where are the grey areas?? Are there grey areas in the eyes of the mods??
The end of one story always marks the beginning of another...
Before I go onto my response, I think I need to address this first, since it has the potentional to be a "bad thing".
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You aren't seeing ours.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is not directed to you but....I really don't care what some of you are seeing or believing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Demi, you asked us to look at other peoples' perspectives to get a good idea of what they're thinking which is a great way to start understanding, but by refusing to acknowledge "what some of you are seeing or believing" you're looking for trouble. That statement was the epitome of hypocritical; you're asking us to do something, and won't do it yourself.
What Sooner is proposing would be the best way possible to solve this problem we have here. By doing it we're:
A) Respecting other posters and their opinions.
B) Showing we can be courteous and polite to the others in our community.
and C) Preventing the deterioration of threads that are serious.
We can't just stop there though, and we don't necessarily "have" to do that, but right now it's our only possible solution, and to me it seems the perfect one.
[ QUOTE ]
Demi, you asked us to look at other peoples' perspectives to get a good idea of what they're thinking which is a great way to start understanding, but by refusing to acknowledge "what some of you are seeing or believing" you're looking for trouble. That statement was the epitome of hypocritical; you're asking us to do something, and won't do it yourself.
[/ QUOTE ]
Meh, should have directed it more better and clearly.....so.....here it is
If you think I'm not seeing the picture here of what "your" seeing, then evidently you have not stepped into the shoes of the people that has been attacked.
Again, I am not giving out or stating my problems like some of you think....I am stating that alot of people need to wake up and see of what the hell they are doing to other people even if they think its just a simple joke. Heck, I've done it myself and got rid of that part of my playing but damnit, alot of things need to be looked into on here......and some or most of you on here know what I mean and if you say "No, I don't understand what you mean" then you need to wake up and look around. It may be a game to you but what about the people behind the character/toon? Its a serious thing to some but to others, its just a game thats there for fun.
Just sit back and think about it.
I don't see where anyone was attacked.
Some people think something is a problem and are trying to talk about it. Incidentally, Ex agrees it is a problem and is asking us to work it out ourselves.
That is not an attack.
No one is saying the thread-jacking has to stop.
What I am specifically asking is if we could please come to some sort of agreement so that we can all continue to enjoy our forums.
...Before Ex steps in and controls it for us.
Just jumping back in to answer some of the questions that have been raised.
1) what happened to the "Forum goers have fun here thread." Well most likely someone hit the notify moderator button on a thread or portion of that thread. The moderator taking the notification acted, and I am trying to find the justification on our end. Certainly what they saw goes against the posted forum rules and policies so in some ways there is no fault in them removing it, they were simply upholding the rules. The problem in this case is reporting a thread meant for fun and threadjacking for some reason even if it is fun or threadjacking. This could have happened from a Protector member or not. At any rate the sheer amount of moderation has been called into question from our end.
<ul type="square"> [*]Posts that have notify moderator flagged will get looked at and subject to be hit.
[*]Using quick reply causes your post to be tagged to the post directly above you, creating a chain of posts, sometimes when you remove a post it will take out a portion of the chain. The best solution is to hit the reply button instead of quick reply, especially directly after a threadjacking. Many innocent and constructive posts get removed for this reason alone.
[*]We have asked our moderation team to consider the regular server forums, fun & games, and PWNZ to be on the low moderation level. So in essence there is more leniency when it comes to violations in these areas, and in some ways this is good and bad. Good because the culture and environment here is allowed to be shaped by the people who dwell here. Bad because if an annoying habit forms amongst the community or a person goes a bit crazy one weekend it can appear as the hammer will hit hard all of the sudden out of nowhere.
[*]When posts do get modded there is a tendency to see an outbreak of "I'll show you" type posts directed at getting the moderators attention and basically acting out about the moderation, which in turn equate to more moderation.
[*]The moderators do not troll the forums looking for threads to take out, each action is justified by a report notification. So either people need to adjust what they hit notify moderator on and be a bit more selective or realize that because we do take a hands off approach to the area that when we get called in there is likely to have an action occur.[/list]
What is threadjacking? How seriously do we take it on the forums?
I think these are two questions I saw, and mainly it is making a post on a posted topic that is off topic, the main threat here is that a topic can be completely derailed. When this occurs someone will notify the mods and the situation above occurs where a post that was informative and meant to be on topic disintegrates into a pile of mush that might need either a shovel or translation text to deal with.
Do we take threadjacking seriously? Honestly it would be a thankless and never ending job if we focused our attention on threadjacking and the destruction/elimination of the art. I think the people that take it the most serious are the ones who take the time to plan an event or to tailor a discussion thread only to have it one lined to death...you can see how they might be the people most affected by the results.
In my opinion I don't mind a bit of sift in my daily read, but it is too easy to fall into the trap of overlooking it as something that isn't problematic for more people that are just not verbal about the issue. I look over these boards approximately 6 hours per day, so I see my share and I am unaffected by most. But some people only have 6 minutes because time here is time that they could be playing or doing something else. SO at a glance they want to know what is cooking on the home front.
Solutions...are there any?
Yes, I think there are, and more than just simple awareness.
Here is what I see are necessary components.
1) A commitment to be aware and responsible is a necessity.
2) The fun must go on! So what format can the fun take without imposing or dominating the other topics.
3) Impending Doooommmm--we need to check this, when a post gets moderated, or when something happens we do not agree with or like, we need to be more proactive and positive than reactive and impulsive.
Certainly I could start making a list and watching for culprits, and then send out an onslaught of PM's warning so and so for such and such... but I'm not the thought police, and I am a Community Coordinator....so lets coordinate something that works.
One thought I had over lunch, was to do a post similar to the guide to guide with links to posts that the regulars really enjoy, whether they are located in the forum games, Pwnz, or anywhere on the forums that Protectors Frequently Fly. This would be one way of keeping those who have more time to comment and browse to keep a handy list of topics hot or not, that you all like to follow. This wouldn't be too hard to do, and would probably make a dent into some of the fly by posting that occurs.
Otherwise I am still looking for suggestions and solutions.
What would you do?
Ex
I threadjack. I try to get some posts back on thread by commenting in some way toward the op's posts.
But this area - like other server sections - represents what I see as the core of Protector players. And there's nonstop banter in our globals, which I certainly love to see and participate in.
I realize there are a few people who decide they resent the banter. There's always the /ignore feature, both here and on the server. I ignore different people for different reasons, both here and in game. But I've never bothered to worry about a threadjack - I can see having the OP ask clearly, "hey please guys, I'm serious" and then let the modsmacking begin. But outside of that, I would hope that as long as the op's still continuing their own banter with or without 'on topicness' the mods learn to leave threads alone.
I'm sure that there are piles of mod reports from one or two or four people regularly. That to me, if I were a mod, would mean "ah, they're at it again" but it wouldn't necessarily mean "time to mod the thread".
Ex, the bigger picture here is that honestly our forum seems to be moderated far more often than others - and for completely different reasons. To me that smacks of preferential treatment toward other forums or posters. That may or may not be TRUE, but that's how I see it and feel it reflects poorly on the mod group.
As my PM to you indicated for another thread, it's really time to sit down with the mods - face to face, if possible - and see what they would do 'if' and simply apply a logical test to certain types of posting.
I'm looking for *quality* moderation, not *quantity* of it. Myself, I've been the owner and admin of several long-standing but more private and smaller boards - and only twice in 6 years have I actually had to lay the smackdown on a particular poster for causing damage to the community.
Here, I honestly don't feel as though the community needs interferance or moderation from outside sources.
That said, I do wish that some 'banter' which rapidly changes to outright attacks - witness Demi and Dirt above, which is PLAINLY obvious to pretty much anyone, from both sides - would be either taken to private messages or emails and hashed out apart from the forums where the rest of us don't need to see the heat.
I know I've been recently guilty of having some issues. I settled them privately and apologized. I have yet to see several others do so - modsmacks or no, I'm sure that politeness needs to be cranked up a notch sometimes.
And THAT said, I don't visit other server forums for precisely that reason: there IS no politeness. It's so noticable here, when someone loses their cool over an issue, because NORMALLY we don't. Normally here in Protector we have a pretty good grip on our posting habits.
Not so true on other server forums, which brings me back to the point of: if it doesn't need to be modded, leave it be. Or, please, balance and fairness - if one section's gonna get modsmacked because of threadjacking, please go to the other forums and do the same. Remind others that their behavior is telling of their attitudes. Recent cross posting and attacks came in several waves, and it became very easily seen that protectorites are often singled out for smacking, where other forum goers don't seem to share that aspect.
It's not okay to favor one section over another. Every indication to me, when I dare go out and read other sections of the server area, is that Protector is heavily modded for no apparent reason, and others are left to flame and be angry. Doesn't seem fair. Again, may or may not be true: I don't hang out in other forum areas often enough to get smacked. But my observation is that this is the case.
Xan and Warface have said it best. We need to respect one another, and I think we need to make certain that if a thread 'needs' to be serious - please state so. Make an effort. That's why I have apologized for my own actions, recently, trying to make an effort.
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed
[ QUOTE ]
Some people think something is a problem and are trying to talk about it. Incidentally, Ex agrees it is a problem and is asking us to work it out ourselves.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I say other than sticking to Protector only....Ex should make this a whole forum operation. Can try it and see what problems can and/or could be solved
[ QUOTE ]
Not so true on other server forums, which brings me back to the point of: if it doesn't need to be modded, leave it be. Or, please, balance and fairness - if one section's gonna get modsmacked because of threadjacking, please go to the other forums and do the same. Remind others that their behavior is telling of their attitudes. Recent cross posting and attacks came in several waves, and it became very easily seen that protectorites are often singled out for smacking, where other forum goers don't seem to share that aspect.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you and I were writing our posts at the same time... but honestly this statement points right back to home.
If other servers are doing such and such then it is not being reported by those other areas. Protector seems to have a dichotomy on this edge. Moderation would not occur if reports were not being generated.
So while I could open this up to the entire population, this seems to be a unique problem with this specific community in that we haven't found the gray area, and marked it clearly as such.
Maybe a title system is in order, allow the OP to specify the level of chaos.
I'm just here... seeing what comes about from this. Because I don't believe the problem is with a handful of people, it is those people who I am also tasked with looking after.
I think that what binds you all together can easily destroy you as a group, and I don't want to see that happen.
[ QUOTE ]
I think that what binds you all together can easily destroy you as a group, and I don't want to see that happen.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT!
Come on, people! This is Protector! We can work this out.
Please.. lets find the middle ground. Please?
Get Mods for each forum section and have them monitor it.
You really should go out into the public with this. I'm positive that there are more players out there that is wanting to get problems solved as they are possible victims of some kind of harassment or person that suffered from someone else going around ranting about stuff n'such.....that is way beyond threadjacking.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that what binds you all together can easily destroy you as a group, and I don't want to see that happen.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT!
Come on, people! This is Protector! We can work this out.
Please.. lets find the middle ground. Please?
[/ QUOTE ]
For my time left on here, I'm willing to find it even with a person that hates my guts completely
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that what binds you all together can easily destroy you as a group, and I don't want to see that happen.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT!
Come on, people! This is Protector! We can work this out.
Please.. lets find the middle ground. Please?
[/ QUOTE ]
For my time left on here, I'm willing to find it even with a person that hates my guts completely
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know what person you're referring to, Demi, but I'm glad to hear it. Who else wants to join Demi and me in the middle ground?
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe a title system is in order...
[/ QUOTE ]
This brings to mind an idea I had earlier. Would it be possible to implement some sort of "typing" option for posts? Such as being able to choose between: On Topic, Off Topic, and Both, and then make the different kinds easily distinguishable?
That way we could have "Johnny A" reading through a thread, and let's say he doesn't mind completely off-topic posts and enjoys reading them, so he'll just ignore the differentials and read through normally. Then comes along "Katie B" that finds a thread about a planned event, but doesn't want to sift through "off-topic" posts, she can just look at the area of the post that's around the subject line, and see whether it's one of the three options, and if it's Off-Topic, she can skip it and move on.
I'd like to know if this would be possible, it would probably help. 
*Editted to include a response to Sooner's post above mine*
You forgot to include me! I own the middle ground, or atleast rent it..
Its not that I have decided that I resent the banter. Protector is fun and some of the banter is fun too. Its that the banter shows up everywhere, in almost every thread. By putting people on ignore, it doesnt solve the problem at all instead you get pages of You are ignoring this user and the occasional post which might be something youre looking for scattered occasionally in between.
Like Ex said, some people only have a few minutes each day to read the boards and dont have time to filter out non-related stuff. Best example I could give
there was a post by someone who was looking to get to level 40 quickly. That thread is 4 pages, maybe 5 pages long now, and only 2, maybe 3 people have given him a straight answer to his question (and before the finger-pointing even begins, yes, I was included in the jacking). Were you that person, do you think youd want to wade through all those pages trying to find the answer to your question? How is that fair to the OP? I think there was another thread where someone wanted information about Protector PvPing on the server and bless her heart I think Cierra was the one who answered - but if memory serves, someone chastised her jokingly for giving that answer because it was in the middle of a well played jack. Again, how is this fair to the OP when theyre trying to get answers to their questions? No OP should have to specifically ask that their thread not be jacked. It should be implicitly understood that it shouldn't be.
I am trying really, really hard to see everyones point of view on this, I really am, but for me it just keeps coming back to the fact that we have 2 threads that are devoted to threadjacks and banter (and one of them was even given to us by one of the Mods themselves!). Why isnt this enough for us?
With regards to other servers not getting smacked, well, maybe other servers havent thought to ask the mods for assistance, or dont care enough about their server to try. I dont know, and I dont give a crap about the other servers and their problems. I care about OURS. But its also not fair to the mods to suggest anything other than impartiality when dealing with us. Players asked for help, and they came. As well, frankly, if there WASNT a problem, Ex wouldnt be here trying to get us to talk about it, and come up with a solution everyone can try to agree on.
Ex could have just swooped in, locked every thread, and told us all to smarten up and pointed menacingly to the forum posting guidelines, and said Obey them or Else! but she didnt. She asked for rational conversation in an attempt to get us to come together to solve the problem. Seems to me she thinks Protector is worth working on to get back on track. Lets all cut the accusations, mud flinging and crap and try to work together and get this issue solved.
-River
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe a title system is in order, allow the OP to specify the level of chaos.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hear hear!
On the prior subject of whether other places get modded more often than us, it's likely that other sections posters may have developed a much higher tolerance for 'their' kind of posting, whereas in here it's a different, slicker kind of skin that we put on. You're right - if it's not reported it won't get modded. I wonder how weird and wild it'd get if for one day a week people from other sections would be moved around to other sections and see what kind of reports you could generate...
One thing that I doubt that the forum structure supports, but would be of HUGE HUGE help, is more than just a 'report this post to a mod' button. The report button needs a blank area to fill in WHY the report is being made. Even the most simple boards I'm on usually have those, it's a mystery why this one doesn't.
Even just a dropdown: reporting / flaming; /threadjack or inappropriate message; threat; calling out; etc - based on the forum terms for what is and is not allowed. That way the Mods job would hopefully be made easier, and at the same time it would slow down some of the mod-happy people I've encountered at times. Plus just because a post has been reported does not either guarantee action nor make anyone aware of why it needs modding. A flag of WHY the request's being made would have a huge impact.
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe a title system is in order...
[/ QUOTE ]
This brings to mind an idea I had earlier. Would it be possible to implement some sort of "typing" option for posts? Such as being able to choose between: On Topic, Off Topic, and Both, and then make the different kinds easily distinguishable?
That way we could have "Johnny A" reading through a thread, and let's say he doesn't mind completely off-topic posts and enjoys reading them, so he'll just ignore the differentials and read through normally. Then comes along "Katie B" that finds a thread about a planned event, but doesn't want to sift through "off-topic" posts, she can just look at the area of the post that's around the subject line, and see whether it's one of the three options, and if it's Off-Topic, she can skip it and move on.
I'd like to know if this would be possible, it would probably help.
*Editted to include a response to Sooner's post above mine*
You forgot to include me! I own the middle ground, or atleast rent it..
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is the best idea I have heard yet.
On topic, off topic, mixed.
You walk in with both eyes open.
View the story of W.A.R.F.A.C.E. and Septimus Bane here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6785073/1/Meus_Profiteor#
my email chrismfears99@yahoo.com
[ QUOTE ]
Thread jacking has been going on in this forum for as long as I have been here. Personally, I have found a lot of it to be quite humorous. There have been a few instances where I have seen threads get out of hand, but I thought that those were the exceptions.
20 pages removed from the fun thread? wow!
[/ QUOTE ]
and btw it goes on heartily in (at least several) of the other server forums as well. What's different here? People in the other server forums don't PM Ex Libris.
(edit - which re-reading the thread in more detail - she pretty much verified. We have a 'problem' b/c the drama lovers here make it so. Plain and simple.)
way
too
much
drama
for
a
GAME
Manam and Zekiran,
You both make great points and they both point to the software version of UBB that we are running. We are currently working towards the upgrade of this version, but we do not have word yet on when that will happen and what additional features we will get. We will get a merge thread option which will help in many ways with cross posting etc.
I am afraid our efforts on this first front will have to be more rigid and personal.
Creating a thread that people can add links to other cool threads will help to disperse some of the rapid fire posting.
Creating a topic system that if a person utilizes symbolizes the tolerable level of chaos...this would be more difficult to uphold and see the through but I think would have a decent impact and would help to clarify the gray.
Ex
C'mon people you need to pull together. Families squabble all the time, and thats all this really is, forgive and forget. Don't act like other Protectorites are the enemy that should be reserved for me alone.
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
I still don't see how there is a social ladder here. We were all new once too. We keep trying to say "Oh, people are snotty to new people!" If you ask me, we had non-players on our forums being rude. I can't recall ever being blatantly rude to anyone new posting on the forums, because I remember my first post.
I have offered my help to people in game and on the forums. I think Protector is a very friendly server, even on the forums. For gods sake, look at the post someone made who was moving from Champion. We told him all our jokes, we told him who we were, we welcomed him graciously.
I guess maybe I don't see the rudeness that is being displayed -- If there is an available post, can someone please PM me a link?