[ QUOTE ]
Jack you can use Latin all you won't, it still doesn't make your argument hold water. The devs have smacked dozens if not hundreds of things that they thought allowed leveling too quickly, most of which didn't generate a single complaint before the correction and many afterwards. Aggro cap changes, AoE limits, and to a certain extent ED are examples of this kind of change. Making the Banished Pantheon in DA harder is another.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you've gone from ignoring a common cause to red herring. Care to actually address my point?
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but I see lots of people making unsubstantiated connections and basing their arguments on assumptions, nothing more.
[/ QUOTE ]
And all I see is one person so stuck in their own dogmatic mindset that they refuse to see evidence for what it is.
[ QUOTE ]
So you've gone from ignoring a common cause to red herring. Care to actually address my point?
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I'm being obtuse here, but I don't see a point. What have you presented that hasn't been refuted? What evidence, other than timing, have you or anyone else presented?
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
You want proof of suppression exploits? Turn on SS, then Snipe, run away, Snipe again. You can kill mobs forever and mobs can never counter-attack. THERE. An exploit that supression fixed. Certainly not the only one but a major one and one I admit I used on mobs I couldn't split/get past otherwise at the time.
There were many examples of jousting used by players because mobs can't kill a player in one shot, so they took advantage of this by speeding past them. That way even if a low HP character got hit he could never get killed because he would be a safe distance away before the mob could make a second attack.
As far as whether the mythos supports it. It doesn't matter. It is a game. It can't be said enough:
When designing a game, the game comes first the mythos second.
If the game isn't fun who cares if it is accurate? It is nice when it can follow the mythos as close as possible but a balanced game is more important. The same goes for players wanting something. Just because they want something doesn't mean it's good for the game.
Finally, the point is moot. It has already been decided, it isn't up for debate. If the Devs haven't repealed it by now they aren't going to. Leave the dead horse be.
----------------------------
You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
Post deleted by Alissara
Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane.
@Alissara - an Angry Angel
The Angry Angels. When it absolutely positively has to be spanked today.
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Castle, one thing that would be very helpful for this kind of discussion would be some numbers that we don't have access to. For example, the question of replay value of the PvP zones in CoX could be well demonstrated by looking at the number of a couple of badges.
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I cannot release those numbers. That would have to come from someone above me!
[/ QUOTE ]
To be 100% honest, I'm not convinced badge counts will be a fair metric.
Fact. I have three badge-"ladies of the evening" ( 
).
Fact. I do not like PvP.
Fact. Two of the three (that are high enough level) have a good may of the "PvP only" badges, because I'm willing to put aside my distaste of PvP long enough to get into the needed PvP zones and get the badges.
So what you may get is a measure of the combined numbers of PvP folks, and those that will tolerate something they dislike long enough to get something they desire.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you have the reputation badges? If so which ones? I've been under the belief (perhaps mistaken) that most people interested in badges avoid those, but do pursue the you've been in X zone for Y time which doesn't of course mean you have to PvP.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
[ QUOTE ]
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Castle, one thing that would be very helpful for this kind of discussion would be some numbers that we don't have access to. For example, the question of replay value of the PvP zones in CoX could be well demonstrated by looking at the number of a couple of badges.
[/ QUOTE ]
I cannot release those numbers. That would have to come from someone above me!
[/ QUOTE ]
To be 100% honest, I'm not convinced badge counts will be a fair metric.
Fact. I have three badge-"ladies of the evening" ( ).
Fact. I do not like PvP.
Fact. Two of the three (that are high enough level) have a good may of the "PvP only" badges, because I'm willing to put aside my distaste of PvP long enough to get into the needed PvP zones and get the badges.
So what you may get is a measure of the combined numbers of PvP folks, and those that will tolerate something they dislike long enough to get something they desire.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you have the reputation badges? If so which ones? I've been under the belief (perhaps mistaken) that most people interested in badges avoid those, but do pursue the you've been in X zone for Y time which doesn't of course mean you have to PvP.
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Ack - my original may show as deleted, mostly because it was a bit necromantic vs Castle's post, and because it didn't bring that much to the table, IMHO. Worse yet, my reply is likely to cause a MAJOR flamefest. If you do want to complain about what I'm about to say, please don't because it's not applicable to this discussion - there are threads that cover it elsewhere.
I have about a 200 rep on Alissara, although it'll have decayed with my temp transition to test for I9.
All I'll say is that even rep badges are not an accurate metric, and wander off mumbling something about a small group of people keeping to themselves in a corner of Warburg.
It bears repeating:
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... and those that will tolerate something they dislike long enough to get something they desire.
[/ QUOTE ]
Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane.
@Alissara - an Angry Angel
The Angry Angels. When it absolutely positively has to be spanked today.
Sounds a bit obsessive 
I can't imagine thats common, but I don't think it would be hard to exclude really die hard badgers from the data set. A filter that looked at the total number of badges and/or one that looked for key hard to earn badges that aren't needed for Accolades would screen that pretty easily.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
[ QUOTE ]
I cannot release those numbers. That would have to come from someone above me!
[/ QUOTE ]
Then could we get some PvP numbers. Not even badges but maybe number of different accounts accessing PvP on a daily basis and how many minutes each spends or total time from all people spent in PvP (ie total occupancy time of each PvP zone)
When you say "Sorry that's gotta come from above me" then we never hear it it's often interpreted as being the same as saying "I can't release that because it would totally validate the opinion that PvP is a wasted venture".
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A large percentage of end users would balk and simply stop playing BF2 at that point -- since there would still be other free alternatives with similar game play styles.
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Sorta like if Cryptic learns a lot from CoH and uses that to make Marvel U Online a superior product people will leave to play MUO? I wonder if NC Soft will start letting Cryptic use a little more money to get more staff and make CoH better before MUO goes Beta/Live and they start leaking customers? All this is assuming MUO will be superior to CoH but you'd have to be pretty stupid to not be able to improve on what is essentially a Non-NCSoft CoH sequel using the Marvel license 
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Perhaps I'm being obtuse here, but I don't see a point. What have you presented that hasn't been refuted? What evidence, other than timing, have you or anyone else presented?
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Well, let's see... you haven't refuted *anything* I have said, at all. So "everything I've said so far" is the answer to the first question. As for the second, well, "everything I have said so far" is also the answer.
Thor, you're usually better than "your point is refuted because I say it is". What's up? Not feeling very good today?
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Perhaps I'm being obtuse here, but I don't see a point. What have you presented that hasn't been refuted? What evidence, other than timing, have you or anyone else presented?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, let's see... you haven't refuted *anything* I have said, at all. So "everything I've said so far" is the answer to the first question. As for the second, well, "everything I have said so far" is also the answer.
Thor, you're usually better than "your point is refuted because I say it is". What's up? Not feeling very good today?
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Jack, please no word games here, I seriously don't see a point. Please write in little words since I seem to be slower today than normal.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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You want proof of suppression exploits? Turn on SS, then Snipe, run away, Snipe again. You can kill mobs forever and mobs can never counter-attack. THERE. An exploit that supression fixed.
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No. The animation time for snipes is so long suppression has ended before the snipe fires. Suppression didn't affect what you describe. Another example, perhaps?
the devious villain known only as asdfjkl;
and feared for his mind boggling look which was created by tapping the random costume button twice, attacks you from inside of the wall where you cannot target him. repeatedly defeating you, over and over. mwahaha haa!
He gloats from his seat of power "JOO JUS GOT TEH PWONZORD NOOOB!!!!11"
yeah, some great "player driven content" there.
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the devious villain known only as asdfjkl;
and feared for his mind boggling look which was created by tapping the random costume button twice, attacks you from inside of the wall where you cannot target him. repeatedly defeating you, over and over. mwahaha haa!
He gloats from his seat of power "JOO JUS GOT TEH PWONZORD NOOOB!!!!11"
yeah, some great "player driven content" there.
[/ QUOTE ]
You've never actually PvP'd, have you?
Well, I haven't played this game since 2004, so I have no idea what I'm talking about (even though back in the glory days I was the masteh) but I wanna chime my 2 cents anyways.
Basically pvp is as fun as the players make it be. If you have jerk-faces in pvp, then it sucks. It's always been that way since begining of player vs player combat (like quake1 and stuff) But if you *fun* polite pvpers, that actually say things like "good fight" or even chat with you afterwards, then pvp becomes fun because now you make buddies - even though they can kill you, your not mad because you know its all in good fun.
PvP starts to become avoidable when the immature peeps start manifesting themselves as avoidable jerks. That might be why the zones are empty (no first hand experience here)
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I did read in a thread that has been removed about Jousting in PvP that Statesman replied to.
I am sorry I did not save it now - why? It was the death knell for smoothly flowing travel powers.
In the thread Statesman was discussing an arena battle where scrappers were jousting and landing Crits and running. He said then something would be done - it was SUPPRESSION.
Uh, for the apologists - Malta, Tsoo, CoT and all the other mobs in the game do not start 100 threads on jousting being unbalanced.
PvP players did.
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And so we come full circle to the original argument. IMO, not only was the PvP community responsible for travel suppression post I4, but some PvPers today want to take it even further by disabling certain powers when travel powers are activated or even inhibit travel power functionality completely in a PvP zone, don't they?
I'm all for letting you guys self-flagellate, but some folks clearly can't see beyond their nose around here. Since our resource-limited dev team is more likely to make global changes instead of PvP ones, I'll try to kill a few extra myths around here to keep travel powers from getting the nerf bat in PvE - again.
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My longest running issue with CoH is that I would rather kill 100 tough villains that take minutes to kill and then level, than mow down eight thousand blades of grass.
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If, and only if, the combat was interesting enough to sustain the length. CoH combat as it stands would fall short by a long way.
When Cryptic increased the Boss hit points the players (by and large) didn't like it. The reason was not (as the Devs sometimes say) because the mobs were harder to kill but because fights became boring and drawn out.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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When designing a game, the game comes first the mythos second.
If the game isn't fun who cares if it is accurate? It is nice when it can follow the mythos as close as possible but a balanced game is more important. The same goes for players wanting something. Just because they want something doesn't mean it's good for the game.
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The problem is that with Suppression the mythos doesn't come second, it is thrown out of the window. Jousting is a significant part of the super hero genre combat. So much so that every single pen & paper game has rules to cover it.
However when the Devs tackled the issue of snipers zipping out of range rather than deal with the short-comings of the mob AI they chose to cripple the player instead. Unfortunately they do this a lot.
Using flight or super-speed to advantage in combat isn't an exploit, its what you would reasonably expect to do in a super hero game.
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Finally, the point is moot. It has already been decided, it isn't up for debate. If the Devs haven't repealed it by now they aren't going to. Leave the dead horse be.
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No. A better solution would do wonders for this game. I've also been told this about things the Devs have later decided to change.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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My longest running issue with CoH is that I would rather kill 100 tough villains that take minutes to kill and then level, than mow down eight thousand blades of grass.
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Though your opinion is somewhat more vocal I'd have to say, overall, it's in the minority as far as CoX is concerned.
The "eight thousand blades of grass," with a few tougher foes (AV/GM's) thrown in for good measure, is more akin to people's vision of what is typical of heroes and villains while "100 tough villains that take minutes to kill," I'm assuming one-at-a-time, is more typical of every other MMORPG (at least the others I have played).
Yes it makes for quick and dirty play at times, but it also gives CoX a unique voice among MMORPG's as far as I'm concerned.
Besides, b/f this change was implemented I'd want proof that the devs could design an encounter that would be interesting over several minutes, not just a bag of health where you cycle the same attacks until the health is no more. The "8000 blades of grass" does a good job of masking this shortcoming IMO.
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Besides, b/f this change was implemented I'd want proof that the devs could design an encounter that would be interesting over several minutes, not just a bag of health where you cycle the same attacks until the health is no more. The "8000 blades of grass" does a good job of masking this shortcoming IMO.
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I think the Eden and Hydra trials heroside do this. You have to accomplish several goals in order to complete the missions.
The new Hamidon trials are also there, requiring concerted teamwork to complete.
The devs are getting a little better in these areas.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
[/ QUOTE ]You've never actually PvP'd, have you?
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that happened to me.
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Though your opinion is somewhat more vocal I'd have to say, overall, it's in the minority as far as CoX is concerned.
The "eight thousand blades of grass," with a few tougher foes (AV/GM's) thrown in for good measure, is more akin to people's vision of what is typical of heroes and villains while "100 tough villains that take minutes to kill," I'm assuming one-at-a-time, is more typical of every other MMORPG (at least the others I have played).
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I concede my opinion may be in the minority with regard to what people want to see in the game, but I disagree that most people think defeating a lot of minor things is more in keeping with a superhero concept. Do you think *any* comic book superhero has wracked up the number of defeats the average player takes to get to level 50? There probably aren't enough criminals in all of Gotham for Batman to have levelled to 50. In all the time I've played CoH, I've probably amassed a larger set of kills than Lobo.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Not directed at Arcanaville:
I just get a kick out of several people claiming "This game wasn't designed with PvP in mind."
I don't think the Devs were/are that shortsighted.
The very first picture I saw of CoH was a screenshot on a gaming website about this new Superhero MMo coming out. The picture sowed 2 heroes attacking each other.
Also, don't you find it odd how closely most of the powersets performed in PvP when I4 hit test? Don't get me wrong, there were some obvious power differences with some sets, but other than Regen getting nerfed and the redo of how defense works, most other things have been "tweaks".
Sorry, but anyone with half of a functioning brain cell could forsee a "City of Villains" game coming after City of Heroes, and PvP would be a natural development.
My thoughts on why things seem kinda messed up:
1) Cryptic Dev team is not nearly as large as alot of other MMOs.
2) Dev team has a pretty limited budget.
3) Dev team is probably spread thin with the addition of other projects such as Marvel Online and the next "City Of" franchise in the works.
Sorry if this doesn't make much sense, sick and on meds.
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Not directed at Arcanaville:
I just get a kick out of several people claiming "This game wasn't designed with PvP in mind."
I don't think the Devs were/are that shortsighted.
The very first picture I saw of CoH was a screenshot on a gaming website about this new Superhero MMo coming out. The picture sowed 2 heroes attacking each other.
Also, don't you find it odd how closely most of the powersets performed in PvP when I4 hit test? Don't get me wrong, there were some obvious power differences with some sets, but other than Regen getting nerfed and the redo of how defense works, most other things have been "tweaks".
Sorry, but anyone with half of a functioning brain cell could forsee a "City of Villains" game coming after City of Heroes, and PvP would be a natural development.
My thoughts on why things seem kinda messed up:
1) Cryptic Dev team is not nearly as large as alot of other MMOs.
2) Dev team has a pretty limited budget.
3) Dev team is probably spread thin with the addition of other projects such as Marvel Online and the next "City Of" franchise in the works.
Sorry if this doesn't make much sense, sick and on meds.
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That all might be fine and good, but the pvp side was not advertised prior to the arenas. So I can see how some folks would not assume that pvp was coming.
Also the implementation, no matter the planning or intention to have pvp eventually, (I would argue due to lack of planning) is something to be desired in SOME cases.
However overall, this game has the best pvp system if I have seen for an MMO in a long time.
As for the ARENA, the crashing more than anything I think drove many folks away. The imbalances also, but maybe less than the constant crashing and unselectable maps..
Also the powersets DID NOT function closely at all in terms of power. Hence the current FOTM phenomenon we see still to this day.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
I just get a kick out of several people claiming "This game wasn't designed with PvP in mind."
I don't think the Devs were/are that shortsighted.
The very first picture I saw of CoH was a screenshot on a gaming website about this new Superhero MMo coming out. The picture sowed 2 heroes attacking each other.
Also, don't you find it odd how closely most of the powersets performed in PvP when I4 hit test? Don't get me wrong, there were some obvious power differences with some sets, but other than Regen getting nerfed and the redo of how defense works, most other things have been "tweaks".
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There's a difference between "intended to have PvP" and "designed for PvP."
Off the top of my head, here are some of the critical design errors in CoH at I3 that needed to be balanced for when PvP was introduced:
1. Defense could lower tohit below zero, making accuracy function nonsensically. Intermediate floor added after arena combat demonstrated this.
2. Difference in resistive damage mitigation from low to high was very high to support PvE requirement of supporting different archetypal roles, but was too high for PvP combat. Unresistable damage added to lower the resistive gap in PvP without altering resistance relationships in PvE.
3. Stacking mechanics allowed teams of players to drive game mechanics beyond balanced-for limits. Problem never fully addressed.
4. Some powersets completely impossible to kill by almost any reasonable means, because damage mitigation was higher than all conceivable damage sources (except for large numbers of attackers). This specifically includes I3 MoG. Not fully addressed for all cases until I5 global defense reductions.
5. Tohit buffs too strong in PvP relative to PvE. Not fully addressed yet.
6. Inspirations unbalanced in PvP in seemingly random ways. Small lucks stronger than small insights. Large insights stronger than large lucks. Not currently addressed.
7. Imbalances sufficiently high for defensive protections in general to require game mechanical changes. Toggle-dropping introduced, and tweaked many times since then.
8. Mez vs Mez protection severely unbalanced in PvP. Addressed in multiple small ways, including the eventual introduction of breakfrees. Never fully addressed.
To believe that CoH was designed for PvP combat, and not just intended for PvP combat, I would have to see evidence that, for most powers and effects, there appeared to be clear evidence that the devs asked themselves "what will happen when a player turns this against another player?" I don't see evidence of that. There was no repel resistance until repel became ridiculously leveraged in PvP, a serious design omission - every effect should have had a counter effect in a game designed for players to attack players. Those kinds of omissions make me think that such thoughts of what would happen when power X was used by a player on another player were not carefully considered when powers were designed.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
However, I remember the "good old days" pre-travel suppression, and at that point no great cloud of players were demanding that travel powers needed gimping, and there was no indication whatsoever pre-PvP that it would occur.
In short, it was a problem that no one noticed because it was causing no one any difficulties. Had it not been for PvP, no one would have cared.
[/ QUOTE ]
Jack you can use Latin all you won't, it still doesn't make your argument hold water. The devs have smacked dozens if not hundreds of things that they thought allowed leveling too quickly, most of which didn't generate a single complaint before the correction and many afterwards. Aggro cap changes, AoE limits, and to a certain extent ED are examples of this kind of change. Making the Banished Pantheon in DA harder is another.
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Just FYI: Ignoring a common cause is just as much a logical fallacy as post hoc ergo propter hoc.
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I'm sorry, but I see lots of people making unsubstantiated connections and basing their arguments on assumptions, nothing more.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends