Most balance posts in the PvP forum tend to point to the favored sets and say either: 1) Make all sets like them; or 2) Nerf them so they are like everyone else.
The problem with that is that many of these sets were specifically created with the advantages they have because they aren't good at other things. So to fix this would require that we increase the homogeniety in the play experience. This is something that the developers really don't want to do.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Ok first i think you need to Clarify your statements.
It seems like you are talking of strictly the highest levels of Team PVP..in this case Test level team PVP. In that form of PVP there is little room for variations because when the goal is to win you need to have certain builds around like Emps/Kins/Blaster and so on.
However its still not entirely true..the larger a match gets the more room for variations there are..in the Lions Den we call these toons "X-Factor" toons...they are toons that can change the playing field and tip it to your favor if the other team isnt prepared for it. A good example would be a Trick Arrow Defender. In an 8 on 8 or smaller a Trick Arrow defender really doesnt cut the mustard because with less people involved there is less room for error.
However when you expand the number of players to 12 v 12, 14 v 14 etc there becomes alot more room to add X-factor toons to the mix..tanks, scrappers, stormies, bubblers, trick arrow..grav..everything becomes an option because they can bring more to the table that your opponent needs to deal with..and the right toon against the right team can = victory.
I'm not saying that PVP in this game is balanced correctly because obviously its not..however the larger a match gets you will notice how much more balance there is.
Just something you should consider when you post next.
and on a sidenote, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a redname response, it's not likely to be coming. This isn't the first time for this type of thread and won't be the last but they don't get responded to.
"I'm not saying that PVP in this game is balanced correctly because obviously its not..however the larger a match gets you will notice how much more balance there is." -- Bignord
We meet again, Bignord. Best to your SR friend. Your point is noted and true. It's the "obviously it's not" part I'm bothering the Devs about.
EvilGeko, love your posts! I don't usually associate you with defeatism though. Presuming it -can- be done, I'm asking if the devs have the will.
"I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a redname response."
Okay kitten, let's agree to a wager. I'll bet my continued participation in the game that I'll get at least a simple "yes, we're trying" from someone at Cryptic. A thirty-month badge ought'a earn me at least that much consideration, hmm?
That's a very cheap wager considering you're continued participation in the game is already on the line regarding the current state of pvp. You are here for the PvP aren't you?
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Id like to ask the developers a direct question.
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I'm not sure that posting in the PvP Gen Forum is an effective way to do this.
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the larger a match gets you will notice how much more balance there is.
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Even if you're talking about team arena matches only, I wouldn't say that the game is any more balanced as the match size increases. The balance remains the same, it just becomes easier to hide your shortcomings in a large match.
I don't think you'll hear too many X-Factor toons saying "In that 16 v 16 I really helped the team as much as our <Insert Standard 8-Man Team Member Here>"
It's not like one team can make up for its lack of emp and/or kin's in a 16 man match much better than it could in an 8 man match.
If there were more 16 v 16 fights, there would eventually be a few lineups that would be considered "optimal" (as there are today with the 8 v 8 setup), and everything else would be left by the wayside (as it is currently with the 8 v 8 setup).
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So again: do you plan to refine PvP?
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Yes. The dev's will continue to make changes to balance the game in the future.
I think most folks in this forum are pretty jaded about dev intentions about PvP. On the advent of issue 9, you get pretty discouraged that you still see stuff broken since issue 4. Nor do the developers seem to understand about how exactly to balance some of the things they put into place:
* Unresistable damage
* Unresistable debuffs
* Tohit buffs vs. defense
* Stealth vs. +perception
* SJ + SS vs. any other travel power
* Buffs vs. debuffs
* Mez vs. suppression
I'm not sure you can fix some of those things without radically altering the PvE game that the devs feel is their bread and butter. I don't think the devs want to implement an "Enhancement Diversification 2.0" style change just to make this game more PvP friendly.
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"I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a redname response."
Okay kitten, let's agree to a wager. I'll bet my continued participation in the game that I'll get at least a simple "yes, we're trying" from someone at Cryptic. A thirty-month badge ought'a earn me at least that much consideration, hmm?
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hmm. I'll be interested to see if a dev posts here but its been what? 4 months since a red name posted in the PvP forums?
(lighthouse's mod posts don't count)
"I think most folks in this forum are pretty jaded about dev intentions about PvP. On the advent of issue 9, you get pretty discouraged that you still see stuff broken since issue 4." -- Fury
"...its been what? 4 months since a red name posted in the PvP forums?" -- Robobug
My sentiments exactly! I want to see if they still care.
"Yes. The dev's will continue to make changes to balance the game in the future." -- Terpman
:: Honk! :: Y'aint a redname, Terpman. Nice try. But I'd be satisfied if they even said that.
"That's a very cheap wager..." -- CitizenZero
Cheap? What'm I asking Kitten to wager against it? Cheap publicity stunt, maybe. Heh!
"You are here for the PvP aren't you?"
Use search-fu for my guides and you'll find I'm an RPer, team player and explorer of weird powersets, not a hardcore PvPer. I'd -love- to join y'all in serious PvP but I can't bring myself to roll up an Ice/NRG. I want to know I outthought my opponent, not the game. No disrespect to hardcore PvPers. :: waves ::
Just stating that you're not really putting much on the line that already wasn't there.
I am gettin really frustrated at these posts saying PvP is unbalenced. First off any build can be good in PvP depending how u build it and play it. Now im not sure in CoV but in CoH where always worried about stalkers. Most of us building ANTI stalker builds. Anyone can kill anyone in PvP and i dont see unbalenced. Stalkers are crazy. Brutes are great to and so on. I dont really no why people are creating problems for the devs. If u dont like the system then dont PvP
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I am gettin really frustrated at these posts saying PvP is unbalenced. First off any build can be good in PvP depending how u build it and play it. Now im not sure in CoV but in CoH where always worried about stalkers. Most of us building ANTI stalker builds. Anyone can kill anyone in PvP and i dont see unbalenced. Stalkers are crazy. Brutes are great to and so on. I dont really no why people are creating problems for the devs. If u dont like the system then dont PvP
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You're just not experienced enough to see the imbalance or you're a casual PvPer. Nothing wrong with either. However, don't discount the experienced posters when they say something isn't right. They have a point.
"If u dont like the system then dont PvP."
no u cant beet nrg blapper with uh dom u noob lern 2 play lol guile nrg numbah 1 u go now I pk.
(Feel dirty. Must bathe.)
Edit: Thanks, Fury. And just let me add, "o snap magic718 lol lern 2 type kthxbi."
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"If u dont like the system then dont PvP."
no u cant beet nrg blapper with uh dom u noob lern 2 play lol guile nrg numbah one u go now I pk.
(Feel dirty. Must bathe.)
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QFT.
Developers don't look at the PvP section...
<---1337
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EvilGeko, love your posts! I don't usually associate you with defeatism though. Presuming it -can- be done, I'm asking if the devs have the will.
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It's not so much defeatism as a serious inability to see how to fix the problem within the constraints the devs have set.
The devs have said to me directly, that they want to maintain a clear distinction between builds. That means that while you can get some kind of rough, servicable balance in PvE, it's not really possible in PvP.
I play a lot of builds and I'll at least try all of them in PvP (being that I suck at PvP and lose with good builds, I have no ego to break. 
). But I still can't see what we can do to change things without removing those distinctions the devs think are necessary.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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and on a sidenote, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a redname response, it's not likely to be coming. This isn't the first time for this type of thread and won't be the last but they don't get responded to.
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If this is true, then we should pressume that PvP is dead to the Devs?...... right?
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and on a sidenote, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a redname response, it's not likely to be coming. This isn't the first time for this type of thread and won't be the last but they don't get responded to.
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If this is true, then we should pressume that PvP is dead to the Devs?...... right?
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i think that was the OPs point
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and on a sidenote, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a redname response, it's not likely to be coming. This isn't the first time for this type of thread and won't be the last but they don't get responded to.
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If this is true, then we should pressume that PvP is dead to the Devs?...... right?
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working as intended
Refine PvP?
They cant even make freakshow tanks have arms 100% of the time...
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Refine PvP?
They cant even make freakshow tanks have arms 100% of the time...
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All your arms are belong to us...
@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.
Positron Approves This Thread.
"I think that was the OPs point." -- Robobug
Aye.
"Rules of Play sux." -- Fasque
Oh, read it have you? What's the first game mentioned?
Edit: Yep, that shut him up.
"All your arms are belong to us...."
Hee hee! I blame Polaron.
"The devs have said to me directly, that they want to maintain a clear distinction between builds... I still can't see what [they] can do to change things without removing those distinctions." -- EvilGeko
This sounds interesting, EG, but you're speaking in generalities. Can you offer some specific examples?
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Positron Approves This Thread.
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Hi. Im a vet of CoH and CoV, and I want to ask about PvP. Im taking a different approach and Id like to ask the developers a direct question.
I really like the basic framework of CoHs PvP system. I feel its on the cusp of a fabulous game and with more effort, PvP could be a favorite game attraction. Unfortunately the PvP system is significantly, grossly unbalanced and the only ones involved now are die-hards who would play with it no matter how badly the system was designed.
Heres a typical post, by no means authoritative but a good summation.
Controller - Emp or Kin?
Defender - Emp, Kin, Rad or Cager?
Blaster - Ice/EM or Fire/EM?
Scrapper - Are you seriously going to bring anything other than Spines?
Tank - If you bring anything other than EM, its just a taunt bot.
there's no room for variation in the support. Yea, you can mix around the damage a bit, maybe bring an Ice/Ice blaster, or a BS/Regen scrapper, but there's not much you can really change.
The problem for me is that there are only a handful of truly viable PvP powerset combinations; the only way to mix things up is through the combinations you make with those powersets.
We could debate the details but this writers assessment is fundamentally correct. The majority of powerset combinations and even entire archetypes are virtually excluded from PvP.
Ive never PMed or bugged the Devs. So as a holder of a Committed veteran award I feel Ive earned the right to publicly ask Statesman, Positron, Geko and Castle this single question: do you plan to refine PvP?
Im well aware that balancing ATs and powersets for PvP is a difficult matter, especially with PvE concerns. Some refinement has taken place and I appreciate the work involved. For example, I saw Super Reflexes redesigned into a workable set.
Id like to quote from Rules of Play by Salen and Zimmerman, a book on game design. Ive quoted this book before but Id like to bring this directly to the developers attention. Ive condensed the quotations but not to violate the intentions of the writers.
Degenerate strategies often appear in complex games, where the numerous permutations of play sometimes afford shortcuts in the space of possibility What makes a strategy degenerate is not just that it goes against the intentions of the designers it violates the spirit of the game In early editions of Magic: The Gathering certain card combinations were simply too powerful and could destroy a player on the first turn. The publishers of the game declared certain cards illegal, most notoriously the Black Lotus card, in order to keep this kind of play experience in check.
Why isnt a degenerate strategy considered cheating? Degenerate strategies take advantage of weaknesses in the rules of a game but do not actually violate the rules Whether or not a particular degenerate strategy is considered proper is often contextual. For example, the use of a single-technique exploit to beat all of the computer opponents in a hypothetical fighting game might be admired a dedicated player has solved the fighting game like a puzzle If the degenerate strategy is used against other human players, fighting bouts would devolve into uninteresting games with both players relying on the one exploitable technique again and again.
Degenerative strategies can lead to iterative design. It is beautiful to think of a game design as a design in process, which can grow and evolve over time, remaining fresh in response to changing needs and invented strategies.
Before anyone takes offense to the term unsportsmanlike player, please note that in an iterative design environment such players are actually a resource. They find the holes that the designers must fill. They take pride in their ruthlessness but scrupulously never cheat. They detest true cheaters. (Cheaters could be considered a similar resource, of course. I would prefer the term "game-breaking player.")
My diagnosis, and I think every long-time player of CoH will support me, is that CoHs PvP system has degenerated and is in dire need of more regular and diligent iterative design.
Statesman, Geko, Castle and Positron, you will continue to receive my patient support if you assure me you intend a more regular and diligent iterative design. But almost eighteen months after CoVs release if you dont respond, I for one must assume you mean to abandon PvP to its current degenerate state and move on.
So again: do you plan to refine PvP?
Thank you for your time.