Click Powers, Animation rooting and You
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2007-01-25 11:30 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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3. Self Heals will not root
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Does this mean that pp Aid Self will no longer need interupts since it will no longer root you? Now you will be able to cast this on the fly if your not rooted correct? Or is the definintion of interrupt being changed from movement or being attacked to just attacked? Or will this be an exception to rule, or does the rul not apply to power pools?
Interruptable powers never root you - you can always move as soon as they begin activating. Such will, however, interrupt said power.
The two mechanics are completely separate.
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You may have noticed some click powers that used to root you and now dont. These powers snuck their way into the wrong build (see what happens when we dont root them), and most of these will change back in the next build that makes it to live. Consider this an official heads up.
Again, sorry for the confusion this has caused. Well get it all sorted out shortly and we thank you for your patience and understanding.
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I think it's time you guys fixed your development process.
It's broken.
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um, I hate to chime in here but...
The 9th level power for dark armor scrappers (the self rez) will now root you according to the power descriptions listed here and beforehand. This power just got significantly worse with no improvements.
If I rez and I'm rooted (unable to flee as long as it's activating) it means I'm going to die again. Especially since it's going to be nearly impossible to activate the dark armor toggles in time.
Dark armor keeps suffering with no love from the developers.
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Lol come on now we all know that if this actually is the case on live then it will be changed shortly.
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If it is a click and you don't want it to root, then you're asking for another exception to the rule.
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So?
Really, what would be the problem if IR's description said "unlike other click powers, this power does not root you in place while activiting." sounds like "the secondary damage of this power does not build Fury" or "unlike other stealth powers this does not reduce your movement speed" any other exceptions to general power design rules. Yes, it's asking for an exception, as you say, but it seems a very reasonable request given the nature of the power.
Siphon Speed is not a good comparison as it's also a debuff.
Group Fly wasn't used as a comparison cause it's toggle vs click here - I'm not sure IR could ever be a toggle like GF because of range and movement issues. Guess you could revamp IR completely to be a toggle that anchors on anyone in range when it's activated, but I'm not sure how balanced that would be.
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Interruptable powers never root you - you can always move as soon as they begin activating. Such will, however, interrupt said power.
The two mechanics are completely separate.
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To put it another way, even though you click them, they're not Click Powers - they're Interruptable Powers, a completely separate catagory not governed by any of this.
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Another post from the Animation Dept.
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Hey everyone. The changes to toggle power animations and the standardization of what does and doesnt root you should now be up on live. I just wanted to clear up any confusion about some other changes to click powers that also happened at this time. The only intended changes to rooting were supposed to be for toggle powers at this time. Were in the process of standardizing click powers to follow their own set of rules, but theyre not going to be slightly different than the rules for toggles.
Right now, our intent is to use these rules for click powers:
1. AOE Heals will not root
2. Self Buffs will not root
3. Self Heals will not root
4. Everything else will.
You may have noticed some click powers that used to root you and now dont. These powers snuck their way into the wrong build (see what happens when we dont root them), and most of these will change back in the next build that makes it to live. Consider this an official heads up.
Again, sorry for the confusion this has caused. Well get it all sorted out shortly and we thank you for your patience and understanding.
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Out of curiosity just how far does this new balance idea extend? It is clear that rooting times for powers mentioned above were not standardized for balance, no does it appear animation times were/are. The rooting portion seems to be on the fix boards, atleast for the powers you mentioned. However:
1) Can we expect such a fix to trickle down into the attacks also? For example, if blazing arrow has a 3 second rooting and blaze roots for but 1 second can we expect to see some sort of standard where all attacks root for the same amount of time or root for a standard amount of time based on the damage they do?
2) Is there any thing in on the plate that would suggest the rooting fixes will continue and we will see some sort of animation standard for balance issues? So that a set like elect. which has about 2 second animation times balances with a set like ice which has about 1 second animation times as far as the damage per second (dmg / animation) is concerned. This type of balance ties directly to chain potential and to a certian extent burst potential for sets, so can we exepect to see a fix to balance issues regarding these factors in the future?
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Is IR a toggle or a click power?
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Click power.
Self/AoE buff (+jump)
No effect on mobs/no debuff.
I've already forgotten about most of you
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You may have noticed some click powers that used to root you and now dont. These powers snuck their way into the wrong build (see what happens when we dont root them), and most of these will change back in the next build that makes it to live. Consider this an official heads up.
Again, sorry for the confusion this has caused. Well get it all sorted out shortly and we thank you for your patience and understanding.
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I think it's time you guys fixed your development process.
It's broken.
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Obviously there was confusion or a lack of clarity among the devs over the scope of the changes. When the changes hit Test, we, the players, caught the discrepancies. Within a week, a new patch dealt with most of the discrepancies and we've been informed that the next few patches will deal with the rest.
The Community Rep and a Developer and the animator were all reading and responding to our posts over this. As much as I've been critical of the development and QA process in the past, this round of changes and patches had exemplary responsiveness from NCSoft and Cryptic.
I am well pleased. I wished the development and QA of all the patches and issues went like this.
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Another post from the Animation Dept.
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Hey everyone. The changes to toggle power animations and the standardization of what does and doesnt root you should now be up on live. I just wanted to clear up any confusion about some other changes to click powers that also happened at this time. The only intended changes to rooting were supposed to be for toggle powers at this time. Were in the process of standardizing click powers to follow their own set of rules, but theyre not going to be slightly different than the rules for toggles.
Right now, our intent is to use these rules for click powers:
1. AOE Heals will not root
2. Self Buffs will not root
3. Self Heals will not root
4. Everything else will.
You may have noticed some click powers that used to root you and now dont. These powers snuck their way into the wrong build (see what happens when we dont root them), and most of these will change back in the next build that makes it to live. Consider this an official heads up.
Again, sorry for the confusion this has caused. Well get it all sorted out shortly and we thank you for your patience and understanding.
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Out of curiosity just how far does this new balance idea extend? It is clear that rooting times for powers mentioned above were not standardized for balance, no does it appear animation times were/are. The rooting portion seems to be on the fix boards, atleast for the powers you mentioned. However:
1) Can we expect such a fix to trickle down into the attacks also?
2) Is there any thing in on the plate that would suggest the rooting fixes will continue and we will see some sort of animation standard for balance issues?
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It is my understanding that when it comes to attack powers, animation time has been included in the balancing of the power. If a power takes a long time to animate, e.g., then they've already compensated for it in some other way by reducing its END, or Recharge, or increasing its ACC or Damage. So, for attack powers, it's a little bit more difficult to standardize animation time since many other factors come into play.
That's not to say animation times haven't been tweaked in the past or that they won't revisit animations of attack powers and rebalance them in the future. If you think certain powers have inordinately long attack animations, the best thing to do is to find some other attack that has similar END, Recharge, ACC, and Damage but a shorter animation and complain that the one with the longer animation time is unbalanced. Right now, the onus is on the players to make the case that the animation is too long and unbalancing and to do so with numbers, not simply saying 'I wanna shorter animation just because.'
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If it is a click and you don't want it to root, then you're asking for another exception to the rule.
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So?
Really, what would be the problem if IR's description said "unlike other click powers, this power does not root you in place while activiting."
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Well, it seems to fly in the face of the idea of standardizing buffs. If that click self+ally power becomes unrooted, then why not all the other click self+ally powers? There needs to be a compelling reason to except it from the rule.
Which leads me to question why click self+ally powers should root except for healing auras? The healing aura is an exception to the rule. So, in this regard, I'm on your side in questioning the new policy for click self+ally powers. If they want standardization, then standardize. If they start making exception for the team heal buff, then why stop there? Make IR and Group Invisibility and Recovery Aura and Accelerate Metabolism and Vengeance all unrooted, too. If I can heal myself and my teammates while running, why can't I make myself and my teammates invisible while running?
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From my understanding and some of this is based off of replies from Arcanaville, whom I find very knowledgable about stuff pertaining, animations are not (atleast at this time) factored into balance.
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I will give you five cookies if IR is unrooted 
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and I shall match that offer. Anyone else want to add to Lighthouse's cookie bribe?
All rules aside, when you have a travel-related power like IR, it needs to not stop your movement for 2 seconds. It's counter-productive.
If that can't be done, then perhaps IR itself needs an overhaul. Maybe a slightly longer duration, or faster casting time (.3 seconds of rooting would maybe not get noticed), or something.
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Is IR a toggle or a click power?
Group Fly (a toggle) used to root, but it doesn't anymore (under the new toggle rules). If IR is a toggle, it shouldn't be rooted. If it is a click, then it should root.
If it is a click and you don't want it to root, then you're asking for another exception to the rule. Comparing it to Group Fly probably isn't going to help make the case since Group Fly is from a power pool which specializes in travel powers. Travel powers found in AT powersets, on the other hand, (like Siphon Speed or Speed Boost) certainly do root. If IR becomes unrooted, then so should they... which is unlikely to happen.
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IR is a click PbAoE self+ally super jump power. It is not foe targeted.
And yes, I'm asking for another exception to the rule, the same exception that applies to Healing/Radiant Aura and Warmth.
IR is a travel power. It grants nothing but +jump. Tho I have seen kins use it in battle, such use is dubious at best.
Honesly, I would rather see it changed to a self-only buff and made unrooted instead of a PbAoE buff that roots. I am sick and tired of falling out of the sky everytime it needs to be recast mid-leap.
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From my understanding and some of this is based off of replies from Arcanaville, whom I find very knowledgable about stuff pertaining, animations are not (atleast at this time) factored into balance.
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To be specific: its clear they are attempting to be systematic about some elements of cast times and rooting, but the devs do not have any sort of specific rules about individual powers being strength-balanced around their activation times. For example, eagle's claw takes longer to cast than headsplitter, but headsplitter does more damage. This is not considered a problem as far as how those attacks are designed.
Alternatively, when I say evasion takes almost three times longer to activate than the average toggle, and that should be reduced, the devs are very likely to consider that a quality of life suggestion, and not a balance suggestion.
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Well the comaprasion would not be between say eagle claw which has a 12 rchg and head splitter which has a 14 rchg. Each with a different endx cost. This is not the comparison I am speaking of. An example would be:
Ice blast: 4.56 BI, 8 rchg, 8.528 cost and 1 second animation
compared to
Lightning bolt with the same BI, cost and rchg but double the animation time.
Here we see 2x the animation for in effect the same dmg, rchg, and endurance cost and while this is a single power this compounds when we see this trend through a set like ice being quick animaiton and elec being longer thoughout the set. Would this not be a quality issue aswell? This also applies to rooting as many Archery can tell you a 3 second rooting can be the death of you where a 1 second root can make a world of difference.
<QR>
Wow...
It never ceases to amaze me... the extent that people will twist something that should be blantently obvious.
_Castle_, little request next time for you/the animators. Try saying PBAoE Heals instead of AoE heals. That will massively cut down a lot of the confusion here.
Transfusion, Transference, Twilight Grasp, Siphon Life, Dark Regeneration... those are all attacks. Whether they do damage or a debuff doesn't matter. The initial form of the power is an attack, therefore, this change doesn't apply. Come on guys, do they really have to spell this all out for you? They removed the rooting from Warmth for a reason.
Self-heals:
Healing Flames
Dull Pain
Reconstruction
Essence Boost
Reform Essence
Earth's Embrace
(all powers that *only* affect the caster)
And as others have pointed out, interrupt is not the same thing as rooting, so Aid Self doesn't apply to these changes.
That a bit more clear for folks?
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I am sick and tired of falling out of the sky everytime it needs to be recast mid-leap.
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I'm sick of falling out of the sky when its duration ends, never mind if I'm reactivating it or not. 
You said it, though. Seeing as the power is 100% about movement, it could easily qualify to an exception to movement-based rules. I would expect that exception for other movement click powers, too, should there ever be any.
In general, the whole power needs to be reexamined, I think. It's duration is slightly less than it's natural recharge time, which makes it kind of silly as a travel power. Between the time you stand still activating it and the time to get it to recharge, you end up covering less ground in the same time than Superjump does - that doesn't seem right to me considering it's 1) a much higher level power with 2) a larger End cost over that same time than SJ and 3) not going to help you get Acrobatics.
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Hey Castle, crazy idea:
Let's take away -ATTACK- rooting on both players -and- A.I. mobs!
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That way you really couldn't stop kiting.
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It's duration is slightly less than it's natural recharge time, which makes it kind of silly as a travel power.
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Its duration is 60 seconds, as is the base recharge. There is a 2.03 second animation that gets in the way, though.
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2) a larger End cost over that same time than SJ
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IR costs 23.4 endurance every ~60 seconds, or 0.39 end/sec.
SJ costs 0.23 endurance every 0.5 seconds, or 0.46 end/sec. If you're jumping more than 50 seconds but less than 60, it'll save you endurance.
That's not to say I would complain if it, say, got a couple seconds sliced off the recharge, and was turned to a much faster or instant activation (see PeaceBringer Quantum Flight for an example) and dropped in price. Just that it's more a quality of life issue than a balance one.
I mean, if I wanted to add 2 seconds to my escape time, pay lump sums for my travel powers, and plummet from the sky, I would have just picked up Teleport like I do with every other character.
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You may have noticed some click powers that used to root you and now dont. These powers snuck their way into the wrong build (see what happens when we dont root them), and most of these will change back in the next build that makes it to live. Consider this an official heads up.
Again, sorry for the confusion this has caused. Well get it all sorted out shortly and we thank you for your patience and understanding.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's time you guys fixed your development process.
It's broken.
[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously there was confusion or a lack of clarity among the devs over the scope of the changes. When the changes hit Test, we, the players, caught the discrepancies. Within a week, a new patch dealt with most of the discrepancies and we've been informed that the next few patches will deal with the rest.
The Community Rep and a Developer and the animator were all reading and responding to our posts over this. As much as I've been critical of the development and QA process in the past, this round of changes and patches had exemplary responsiveness from NCSoft and Cryptic.
I am well pleased. I wished the development and QA of all the patches and issues went like this.
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This sums up my own point of view as well. I've been critical about the devs' processes before but they've been communicative and responsive over these particular issues and I'm very happy to see it. I offer them virtual cookies in gratitude!
I also want to throw my support behind unrooting Inertial Reduction. It's basically an AoE click version of super jump. Unrooting it will only make it work better as a travel power, it's obvious and primary purpose. I can't see any reason in favor of keeping it rooted apart from consistency -- but the game already has a number of powers that are excepted from rules.
that makes life so much easier.
Been playing quite a bit this weekend and I found something off with Practiced Brawler (click self buff). If you're in motion when the power goes off you don't get an animation, no problem.
But if you're standing still, such as in combat, with Practiced Brawler on auto (as most people I would think have it set) and the animation starts (cause you're not in motion at the time) you can't get another power to activate until the animation is done. Clicking on any other power will just queue it till PB's animation is over.
Anyone finding any other click self buffs doing this? I gotta think this is some kind of bug.
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Clicking on any other power will just queue it till PB's animation is over.
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That is the way it should work. The activation time on these powers have not been removed, they just no longer require you to stay still.
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Another post from the Animation Dept.
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Hey everyone. The changes to toggle power animations and the standardization of what does and doesnt root you should now be up on live. I just wanted to clear up any confusion about some other changes to click powers that also happened at this time. The only intended changes to rooting were supposed to be for toggle powers at this time. Were in the process of standardizing click powers to follow their own set of rules, but theyre not going to be slightly different than the rules for toggles.
Right now, our intent is to use these rules for click powers:
1. AOE Heals will not root
2. Self Buffs will not root
3. Self Heals will not root
4. Everything else will.
You may have noticed some click powers that used to root you and now dont. These powers snuck their way into the wrong build (see what happens when we dont root them), and most of these will change back in the next build that makes it to live. Consider this an official heads up.
Again, sorry for the confusion this has caused. Well get it all sorted out shortly and we thank you for your patience and understanding.
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Minor comment from a bot/dark Mastermind. The AOE heal on the dark set still roots.
The new animation and rooting changes worked great with SR.
All the toggles animated if I kept my scrapper standing still; if I moved while the toggles were activating the animation disappeared (there was no rooting). PB worked just like the toggles...groovy.
I didn't notice the back flips for elude...I don't know if it's because the animation was changed or if it's because I was in scrapper lock.
Anyway, great job!!
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