[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't write this off just yet.
Yes, it's framing a battle on gaming violence, but it seems some game developers and scholars that are GAME ADVOCATES appear to have participated in this.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Participated" =/= "Agree with what the filmmakers are saying."
Anyone can get an interview with a game designer, sit there for an hour or so, and get them to say all sorts of things in response to specific leading questions. Then you can use clever editing to take comments out of context and throw in dramatic sounding music to make it appear that the person interviewed is saying something very different from what they actually believe.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. See: any local news station interview between candidates in a particularly heated local election. Or cable news channels for that matter. Sound bytes be damned.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just to make it clear, some of the speakers that are game advocates are VERY MEDIA SAVVY GAME ADVOCATES, including notables like professors of media studies at MIT. They aren't easily duped.
And the idiots on the other side have been frequently beat up by flawed references and incorrect assumptions (Jack Thompson's bully crusade and anti-sims comments he had to step back from, for example). The flight sim statement he's used in other places, and while he seems to love it, many anti-game-violence people cringe every time he uses such garbage. He damages their cause.
Look at what was really said and ask yourself how much is patently anti-game and what's neutral or pro-game.
Also, from what I've read, the director of this isn't a known anti-game crusader and has said he'd like to frame the topic for debate, not persuade one side or another.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its very easy, and very common, to have your words and actions manipulated by an shady interviewer/reporter/film maker so they can make their point. When making a hit piece documentary, they don't get people on the opposite side of the issue to sit down with by telling them its a hit piece. They say that they're making a "balanced" look at a serious issue.
The Borat movie is a good exampe of this, and Michael Moore has made a career out of doing this type of interview.
MORAL COMBAT!
/em boombox_technomusic
--------------------
Currently listening to Heather Nova's Siren
Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't write this off just yet.
Yes, it's framing a battle on gaming violence, but it seems some game developers and scholars that are GAME ADVOCATES appear to have participated in this.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Participated" =/= "Agree with what the filmmakers are saying."
Anyone can get an interview with a game designer, sit there for an hour or so, and get them to say all sorts of things in response to specific leading questions. Then you can use clever editing to take comments out of context and throw in dramatic sounding music to make it appear that the person interviewed is saying something very different from what they actually believe.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. See: any local news station interview between candidates in a particularly heated local election. Or cable news channels for that matter. Sound bytes be damned.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just to make it clear, some of the speakers that are game advocates are VERY MEDIA SAVVY GAME ADVOCATES, including notables like professors of media studies at MIT. They aren't easily duped.
And the idiots on the other side have been frequently beat up by flawed references and incorrect assumptions (Jack Thompson's bully crusade and anti-sims comments he had to step back from, for example). The flight sim statement he's used in other places, and while he seems to love it, many anti-game-violence people cringe every time he uses such garbage. He damages their cause.
Look at what was really said and ask yourself how much is patently anti-game and what's neutral or pro-game.
Also, from what I've read, the director of this isn't a known anti-game crusader and has said he'd like to frame the topic for debate, not persuade one side or another.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its very easy, and very common, to have your words and actions manipulated by an shady interviewer/reporter/film maker so they can make their point. When making a hit piece documentary, they don't get people on the opposite side of the issue to sit down with by telling them its a hit piece. They say that they're making a "balanced" look at a serious issue.
The Borat movie is a good exampe of this, and Michael Moore has made a career out of doing this type of interview.
[/ QUOTE ]
That IS true.
It is also common in a debate to lull one side into thinking you're it's advocate, or at least it's "impartial" mediator, while in fact setting up the argument for a slaying. We have some very savvy professionals who've been to congress and back supporting games and we have a few "crusaders" whose cases are almost laughable.
Beyond the trailer... does anyone KNOW if Moral Kombat will be as anti-game as the two soundbites would make it?
People that are anti-game are often so out of ignorance. Many don't know that there even IS self-regulation. They just know that there's a boogyman in the closet, and maybe, once someone turns the light on in the closet, some of them will go "oh, is that all?" and let the issue drop.
That is largely what's happened to the once-very-active anti-music, anti-movie, and anti-TV movements. We still have plenty of idiots out there, but the lost momentum as the rest of the people saw that there were safeguards in place to help parents have some control and make good decisions.
We get THAT message out, and these anti game crusaders become an even smaller fringe. We don't have to shoot down everything they say, just shed enough light on the subject.
[ QUOTE ]
MORAL COMBAT!
/em boombox_technomusic
[/ QUOTE ]
Sen. Joe Liberman launches his Bloody Spear at Satanic_Hamster, "GET OVER HERE!"
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MORAL COMBAT!
/em boombox_technomusic
[/ QUOTE ]
Sen. Joe Liberman launches his Bloody Spear at Satanic_Hamster, "GET OVER HERE!"
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm... Kongressional Kombat: a Mortal Kombat skinned with the faces of real politicians and populated by their best sound bytes....
The potential...
brb...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MORAL COMBAT!
/em boombox_technomusic
[/ QUOTE ]
Sen. Joe Liberman launches his Bloody Spear at Satanic_Hamster, "GET OVER HERE!"
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm... Kongressional Kombat: a Mortal Kombat skinned with the faces of real politicians and populated by their best sound bytes....
The potential...
brb...
[/ QUOTE ]
oooo, I'll play that game.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MORAL COMBAT!
/em boombox_technomusic
[/ QUOTE ]
Sen. Joe Liberman launches his Bloody Spear at Satanic_Hamster, "GET OVER HERE!"
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm... Kongressional Kombat: a Mortal Kombat skinned with the faces of real politicians and populated by their best sound bytes....
The potential...
brb...
[/ QUOTE ]
oooo, I'll play that game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Heck, i´ll buy that game.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, someone with some decent editing skills splice in Superman from Superman the game in place of Statesman and send it back asking for their opinion...
[/ QUOTE ]
Why stop there? With video editing and related software so doable these days, a hobbiest could take that same soundtrack and substitute in various promo-video shots of everything from 'Superman,' to 'ToonTown' to 'Hello Kitty, Online' and make this even more of a alarmist-farce hilarity than it already is.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do it with Care Bears and My Little Pony.
[/ QUOTE ]
you have to keep the techno music though
[ QUOTE ]
We issued a challange to the video game industry, we said don't want to get into this, and have the government regulate video games, and force you to adopt a rating system. But if you don't do it yourself. We will.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow... just simply wow. You don't want to get into this? So don't. Just walk away there... But apparently you DO. So nice contradictary sentence there.
That was my initial thought.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We issued a challange to the video game industry, we said don't want to get into this, and have the government regulate video games, and force you to adopt a rating system. But if you don't do it yourself. We will.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow... just simply wow. You don't want to get into this? So don't. Just walk away there... But apparently you DO. So nice contradictary sentence there.
That was my initial thought.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, it was Lieberman stating what the government did back then, pre ESRB. It's a narrative of historical relevance. Word was spreading about this new medium that was potentially as gory or sexually themed as anything from Hollywood, open to anyone. At the time, there was no ratings board.
Congress held hearings to determine if they should, indeed, get involved. The message was clear: regulate yourselves, like movies and other media, or be ready to be regulated.
-----------------
Ratings were made, it seemed to be OK, but a few high-publicity issues now asks:
- is the ESRB lax in its processes
- are the stores lax in selling to minors
- are developers marketing M-rated games to Teen audiences, much like movie companies we caught marketing R movies to teens?
Those are legitimate issues to ask- and if there are problems, we have to figure out what the heck we can do about them. Oftentimes, just giving publicity to everything that's done to prevent mature content from falling into kids' hands is sufficient to defuse the majority of the ignorant.
The idiots will still howl to the hills that something needs done, but we just need to calm the masses.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(A bit off topic) They do that with global warming too. I think we'll realize that the water level is rising before it's too late... We're not just gonna all drawn one day out of the blue...
[/ QUOTE ]
It was very off topic. Certainly, I am not the ONLY one who prefers we focus on one piece of propaganda at a time (video game "violence"). I saw your point, but I wish folks like you would go start their OWN threads or blogs about Global Warming or the Iraq conflict somewhere ELSE. 
[/ QUOTE ]
When someone claims that a video game, book, movie or even a voice in their head made them commit the crime. I feel that the person should be immediately examined by a psychiatrist no waiting not even a single day would pass. Then if they are proven to have a mental disorder then they would be put in an institution for the criminally insane. If not then they should stand trial and not be able to use that as a defense.
Part of human nature is to pass the buck. Finding a scapegoat to blame other than themselves as teenagers or adults for their actions. Parents that do not truly do their job of raising their children properly because they just do not care want to have something else to blame.
If they stuck Mickey Mouse in with porno movies and said that Walt Disney's toon are just as sexually explicit then Walt Disney would sue. For crying out loud this is a teen rated game. The rest of the games in the mix are either R rated or for Adults only. You can correct me if I am wrong but I think that Best Buy has a policy concerning video games. That policy is that they will have any mature or adult rated titles in there store. There may be other companies like but I just do not know.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, Minnie Mouse DID appear topless in many of her early movies. I think a lot of the early Disney females did, actually.
(Now there's something to quote out of context...)
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
IMHO, the biggest issue is that many parents don't know enough about the ESRB to make an educated decision.
My Story:
I used to work at a national electronics chain, we'll call it CC. When I worked there, I worked for commission (not salary + commission, just commission). Now, in CC you make little commission on media (CDs, games, etc.); your bread & butter are electronics and accessories. In other words, there's little to no incentive for selling an M-rated game to someone so you can make a sale, because you're only going to get $0.20 out of it anyhow.
However, I was wathcing the Games counter for a coworker one day before the holidays while he was using the restroom. A 40-something father comes up to me with a game. He says his 12-year old son "really wants it". He asks me how good it is. I take a look at it.
The title was "Grand Theft Auto Vice City". Rated M, of course. I almost laughed.
Me, being the conscientious person I am, politely tell him that the game contains blood, violence, drive-by shootings, prostitutes, etc. (most of which are clearly labeled on the back of the case). He, obviously, had no idea of this and promptly chose another game with a better rating.
Now, while there was no incentive for me to care so long as I made a sale, it really wasn't a motivation sicne I wasn't going to make alot anyhow. The problem is that many counter-jockeys just don't care. And since there's no law saying they should care, it really doesn't matter what they sell to mom & dad. That's part of the argument, and certain states have actually made laws whereas M-rated games can only be purchased by those over age 18 with a proper photo ID. (Personally, I have no problems with this, being well over 18, and because there is already a precedent with R-rated films at a theater).
Of course, sometimes it's the parents who just don't care. Even if buying M-rated games required a photo ID to prove your age is over 18, they would still buy them and happily give them to their whiny children just to pacify them. Unfortuantely, that's not so easy to control as opposed to controlling how old the purchaser is in the first place.
[ QUOTE ]
Heh. what we should do is put together a trailer villifying congress. Maybe pick a few scenes that dont make sense among all the scenes that might be in theme. Congress raises taxes, congress starts wars, congress has sex.
To bad we dont have tax dollars to distribute it.
[/ QUOTE ]
>cough< YouTube >cough<
Certainly got Brazil's attention, and for a bit more trivial an issue... 
[ QUOTE ]
Rap is ruining our children! That's not music and they shouldn't try and teach them that it is. *frowny face* [/quote/]
I am not a fan of Rap but i don't believe Rap is ruining ideas. sure some of it is basically themed the same way and most people would consider inaproppiate as would i. But the truth is people do not want to live up to their mistakes and take the blame themselves. balming other people for people's problems will always happen it is human nature we do not want to be wrong and or ridiculed for what we have done. But if you live up to mistakes you have made people are more likely to forgive you (depending on the circumstances). And generaly speaking most peoples actions are based on how they were raised and life experiences not VIRTUAL ones.
[/ QUOTE ]
Rap in and of itself is not the problem; the glorification of demeaning/thug-like behavior that often occurs in some rap is a concern, however. The two should not be confused with one another. (Your mileage may vary!)
[ QUOTE ]
Do not bash religions or political affiliations as you can find nuts on either side of the fence.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT. 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm extremely disappointed that an image of Statesman would be used in such a way. I know that we designed City of Heroes to appeal to "children of all ages." My proudest accomplishment with the game is that many parents (including my brother) play with their children...sharing, I hope, the same joy for the comic book world that I've had ever since I was 8. I cannot express the shock that I felt seeing that a character created by Cryptic would be used in the same sentence as Columbine.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can see the shock of it - and agree for the most part with the majority of the comments here. But I also as a parent chose COH as a game I could play with my son, and know what kind of games my kids have. That's responsible parenting.
By the same token - I see games where to score points you're shooting cops, burning people on the street, blowing away people because they don't believe in the same religion as you ... and I have to ask myself as a parent why the heck there's not something being done to limit this kind of thing beyond the efforts I put in.
I won't go so far as to say "If you play those evil games you'll be a drug dealing satanic axe murderer!!". But lets face it - it sure as heck does not shock me if you become one. You sleep with dogs - you have a tendency to wake up with fleas, and sufficient exposure to thinking that sort of thing is cool will affect your outlook.
Responsible adults know what their kids are up to - they don't control them - but they help guide them. Responsible game makers - need to decide if the message they're sending out is one they endorse, or one they plan on making money off of.
I have had some serious issues with CoH's emphasis on CoV for so many issues because I'm really not thrilled with the idea of my kid playing a villian. Let's face it - as corny as it is - CoV is supposed to be about being a successful villain.
And we can all say, "Anyone who can't tell the difference between reality and a game is nuts." and you'll be right. But then - how many sane people kill? How many sane people deal drugs, shoot cops, blow up schools? I'm hoping the answer to that question is zero.
Is it necessary to enjoy a game - to kill a cop? Is it necessary to enjoy a game - to kill someone who did absolutely nothing - they're just there? Well - some say yes, it increases the believablity of the game - allows you to get into the role - allows you to pretend. And that's all it is - it's pretending. Okay I can see that.
Is it necessary to enjoy a game to see somethings blood splatter all over a wall? To see a skull rip open with a chain saw? Why is it better in a game - acceptable in a game - but not in real life? The answer (I'm hoping) is you know you wouldn't ever do that but it's fun to pretend. And the violence - makes it more believable. Makes it more fun.
Gotcha. It's more fun - if you pretend to blow the head off something.
Now - I want you to think about what you would do - if the guy sitting next to you at McDonalds or where ever ... started explaining how chainsaws and blood and blowing the head off cops - was okay - so long as you're only pretending.
Let me know how that works out for you.
We cannot keep claiming that because it's all "pretending" and therefore it's okay. Adults - Parents have to take responsiblity at home - Game Designers have to take responsibility in the market. It's our world - we decide how it's supposed to be shaped.
States and CoH here has been seriously slandered in this clip. CoH and even - regardless of it's design - CoV - do a good job of pushing a positive set of life values. They're one of the very very few games that manages to do that, and Cryptic should seriously look into legal action because it does give people the wrong impression.
Even still - you'd impress even me more if my kids could pay for a Hero expansion that means they don't have to buy CoV to get into SG Bases.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do not bash religions or political affiliations as you can find nuts on either side of the fence.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT.
[/ QUOTE ]
The followers of FSM thank you.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do not bash religions or political affiliations as you can find nuts on either side of the fence.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT.
[/ QUOTE ]
The followers of FSM thank you.
[/ QUOTE ]
There are also opportunists on both sides of the fence as well. An issue like this has almost no down side for the people pushing it, and plenty of benefits. Supporters will be shown to care about the safety and well being of children by the media, earning them votes from the general public. Positive exposure for doing really nothing.
Detractors will be vilified by the press for their support of violence and disregard for children.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do not bash religions or political affiliations as you can find nuts on either side of the fence.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT.
[/ QUOTE ]
While the saner members of their affiliation no doubt wish they could drag the nuts off to a little padded cell. Or simply act as voices of reason, as when John Denver (who I feel safe in assuming was liberal) argued against the music witchhunt by Tipper Gore and co.
The best thing we can do is be voices of reason to the people we know.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm extremely disappointed that an image of Statesman would be used in such a way. I know that we designed City of Heroes to appeal to "children of all ages." My proudest accomplishment with the game is that many parents (including my brother) play with their children...sharing, I hope, the same joy for the comic book world that I've had ever since I was 8. I cannot express the shock that I felt seeing that a character created by Cryptic would be used in the same sentence as Columbine.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can see the shock of it - and agree for the most part with the majority of the comments here. But I also as a parent chose COH as a game I could play with my son, and know what kind of games my kids have. That's responsible parenting.
By the same token - I see games where to score points you're shooting cops, burning people on the street, blowing away people because they don't believe in the same religion as you ... and I have to ask myself as a parent why the heck there's not something being done to limit this kind of thing beyond the efforts I put in.
I won't go so far as to say "If you play those evil games you'll be a drug dealing satanic axe murderer!!". But lets face it - it sure as heck does not shock me if you become one. You sleep with dogs - you have a tendency to wake up with fleas, and sufficient exposure to thinking that sort of thing is cool will affect your outlook.
Responsible adults know what their kids are up to - they don't control them - but they help guide them. Responsible game makers - need to decide if the message they're sending out is one they endorse, or one they plan on making money off of.
I have had some serious issues with CoH's emphasis on CoV for so many issues because I'm really not thrilled with the idea of my kid playing a villian. Let's face it - as corny as it is - CoV is supposed to be about being a successful villain.
And we can all say, "Anyone who can't tell the difference between reality and a game is nuts." and you'll be right. But then - how many sane people kill? How many sane people deal drugs, shoot cops, blow up schools? I'm hoping the answer to that question is zero.
Is it necessary to enjoy a game - to kill a cop? Is it necessary to enjoy a game - to kill someone who did absolutely nothing - they're just there? Well - some say yes, it increases the believablity of the game - allows you to get into the role - allows you to pretend. And that's all it is - it's pretending. Okay I can see that.
Is it necessary to enjoy a game to see somethings blood splatter all over a wall? To see a skull rip open with a chain saw? Why is it better in a game - acceptable in a game - but not in real life? The answer (I'm hoping) is you know you wouldn't ever do that but it's fun to pretend. And the violence - makes it more believable. Makes it more fun.
Gotcha. It's more fun - if you pretend to blow the head off something.
Now - I want you to think about what you would do - if the guy sitting next to you at McDonalds or where ever ... started explaining how chainsaws and blood and blowing the head off cops - was okay - so long as you're only pretending.
Let me know how that works out for you.
We cannot keep claiming that because it's all "pretending" and therefore it's okay. Adults - Parents have to take responsiblity at home - Game Designers have to take responsibility in the market. It's our world - we decide how it's supposed to be shaped.
States and CoH here has been seriously slandered in this clip. CoH and even - regardless of it's design - CoV - do a good job of pushing a positive set of life values. They're one of the very very few games that manages to do that, and Cryptic should seriously look into legal action because it does give people the wrong impression.
Even still - you'd impress even me more if my kids could pay for a Hero expansion that means they don't have to buy CoV to get into SG Bases.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good job on your post. The sad thing is that the only way that game makers will start taking responsibility to the market is only when they have no choice but to do so. I will use a statement from one of Christopher Reeve's superman movies. It was called Quest for Peace. He said that when the people want peace bad enough their leaders will have no choice but to give it to them. Sad but the same is true for video games only when we have decided as a people that we do not find such games as GTA series good and fun, and the game makers make no profits on them then they will have no choice but to stop making them.
Ebony Fists: Level 50 DM/Regen Scrapper, Gloom Piston Robotics/Dark mastermind level 34, QueenFireMare: Level 34 Fire blaster (pure fire),
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We should bad punching bags because they teach you how to hit things. We should ban paintball, waterguns, and penises, because they teach you how to "aim".
[/ QUOTE ]
I am SO tempted to sig this.
[/ QUOTE ]
err... you want to put Biostem's pen1s into your sig? 
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We should bad punching bags because they teach you how to hit things. We should ban paintball, waterguns, and penises, because they teach you how to "aim".
[/ QUOTE ]
Shoot, I'll sig it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Too late, BillZ... Lacuna got to the pen1s first...
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
I look at it this way, my kids are growing up in a gamer's home, bar none. They both like playing games now as well and their usual standard fare is something like GH2 or Pokemon or any of my superhero games. When I play something that's rated T+, I usually play alone and out of their sight in another room.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ahh... good times. Good times.
My little 9-year-old daughter is learning to play games with me, and this child is a [censored] SHARK! She regularly racks up more wins at HeroScape and Fluxx than her Mommy and Daddy combined.
*sniff*.... i'm soo proud...
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
Do it with Care Bears and My Little Pony.
[/ QUOTE ]
Attach razor blades to their paws & hooves first. Now THAT'S quality Family Entertainment!!
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
My son, I keep away from the "graphic" games because he's only 7. He doesn't need to be exposed to that until he's got a firm grasp on the concept that things on TV or movies or video games are not meant to be done in real life. I'm as pleased as punch to buy games like Donkey Kong, Pokemon or Mario Cart till the cows come home for now.
[/ QUOTE ]
And this, ladies and gentlemen, this little statement I've put in bold, is why Sky_Hawke is a good parent. This right here is a parent's job. To teach children the difference between reality and make believe, and to explain that things that happen in 'make believe' aren't neccesarily acceptable in 'reality'.
Good on you, Sky_Hawke.
Anyone who says that video games are responsible for the problems with their children is someone who isn't raising their children.