Games dont make Violent Kids, Bad parenting does...bad moral direction produces these "rotten eggs". Its not our fault that nowadays video games are what "bad parents" use to entertain/watch their kids so they dont have to do it themselves. Rewind 20 years, and you will find a similar documentary about televesion..go back another 20 years and you will find another about radio. The blame game is funny, as it never seems to focus on the people that are to blame.
/end dr. phill moment.
without turning this into a mass media lecture hall, it still comes down to basic structures Hyperdermic Needle (Silver Bullet) Model vs. Minimalist Model structure
This is a bit simplistic a comparison but:
Silver Bullet model states that media has a tremendous impact on all individuals on all levels and people will react accordingly
The Minimal Model states that some people will be affected by some things some of the time
Now this is a simplistic view of the two models, but it should be obvious in a lot of the arguments where the two often conflict.
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half of america plays videogames.
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If you take a step back and realise that people sat down at an equivalent of this, a flight simulator, and learned enough to fly jets into the world trade center. What do you think happens when a 9 year old boy plays a first person shooter or plays a videogame that rewards killing cops.
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Funny. If half of america is being warped by videogames one would think that we wouldnt rely on foreign terrorism as our best argument.
This kind of political scape goating makes me sick. This happened with music in the 80s, movies in the 90s, and books in the sixties. Clearly as a society we will never outgrow our urge to blame media for the failings of our system.
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I "loved" the leap of logic when they said the 9/11 terrorists trained on flight sims so therefore a kid who plays GTA will go around killing cops.
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How about instead, we ask "Why are parents letting a nine year old play a game he isn't old enough to play?"
First it was jazz, then it was movies, then heavy metal, then rap, now it's video games that is ruining our children. I think it is parents that are ruining our children. It's harder to adopt a pet from a shelter than it is to become a parent. That alone should point out the core issues.
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Rap is ruining our children! That's not music and they shouldn't try and teach them that it is. *frowny face*
There is so much missing from that trailer in terms of the entire picture as to be laughable. It's propoganda without understanding and that kind of thing bothers me. There are movies that are more violent than games, there are games that are more violent than movies. The difference is that a kid can't get into an "R" rated movie, but you see parents buying GTA III for their 13 year old all the time.
I worked in retail manaing the gaming department for a major electronics chain and I told my employees that if I caught them selling an M rated game to a minor without an adult presnet and without having explained the rating system to the adult that they were fired. This was 4 years ago.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
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The difference is that a kid can't get into an "R" rated movie, but you see parents buying GTA III for their 13 year old all the time.
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Actually any age of child is allowed to acompany a parent into an R rated movie. They just arent allowed to go in themselves. Much like how they cant buy an M or AO game without a parent.
The hypocrisy is strong.
and both are only so long as they are enforced. It is only recently that they have tried cracking down on enforcement again for actually using what's been around for a long time.
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Rap is ruining our children! That's not music and they shouldn't try and teach them that it is. *frowny face*
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I beg to differ!
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The difference is that a kid can't get into an "R" rated movie, but you see parents buying GTA III for their 13 year old all the time.
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Actually any age of child is allowed to acompany a parent into an R rated movie.
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I'm not so sure about that. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe it's a function of Canadian versus American, but I'm fairly certain that it's a "No Admittance" issue.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
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In the words of a classmate of mine- A movie/videogame/song/etc may put an idea into your head, but YOU are the one who decides to act on it.
Heck, people do stupid things after seeing stuff on the news- do we ban news reports? Do we restrict news reports to text-only, or narration, so that nobody gets a visual of something and tries it?
I think parents are a huge part of the problem in some cases- they don't check or care to read video game info and ratings, they don't talk to their kids, or monitor what their kids are reading, listening to, playing, or watching. I'm not blaming all parents- I know there are some out there who do their best to teach their kids right from wrong, and reality from fantasy. But sadly, some can't be arsed. Then their unsupervised, poorly parented kids do something stupid, cries for censorship are heard, and the responsible ones among us suffer.
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Don't get me wrong here: I'm a big advocate of games as an entertainment medium, and I'm making more and more of my living in applying games to learning.
The learning part is also the reason for concern:
Ever hear the old adage that people retain 20% of what they read, 50% of what they hear, but 70% of what they do? (Note, the percentages are made up for the sake of expedience, but the "flavor" is there). Well, we "do" alot more in games, and there is some truth to that.
We build our world view and motivations on all the input/output around us: our parents, our teachers, our friends, our co-workers, what we see, hear- everything.
Games are only part of the equation.
They're the newest part, the part that many people don't yet understand, and they're growing in influence daily. That makes them scarry.
The fact that we're telling people that they may eventually be better tools for learning than books or TV essentially means that they can potentially influence our world views better than books or TV. That makes them scarrier.
Now, we can say all we want that people can filter things, that kids see through the prostitute-solicitation and killing in GTA and only see a "power up." But... it also objectfies women and jokes about violence against women. We wouldn't bar comedians from making such jokes to an adult audience, but we'd often fire a teacher that did it in the classroom.
We can say that "people have the ability and responsibility to filter out their own input" but many of the problems we might learn or develop from a bad parent we DO blame on the parent. They're really just another factor in forming our world-view- quite a few of them are bad, and we try to do something (often overreacting) to protect kids from them.
Now we have a more powerful media element that will spend more time with a kid than that alcoholic dad ever did.
Is there reason to be concerned?
Note that "concerned" doesn't mean "ban em."
We know adults put the bottom line ahead of "the common good" rather often. Can we trust a store that says "we won't sell M games to minors" when there's no penalty? Maybe we can, but until we discuss it openly, fear and ignorance will prevail.
We know that movie companies only recently stopped marketing "r" rated movies to teens. What are game companies doing? Again, they may be acting honorably, but in the absence of responsible dialogue, people think outlandish things.
If we DON'T show up in numbers ready to discuss this issue, only the ignorant will be speaking- seeding that wild speculation further and using it to power legislation based on ignorance.
All emerging media has gone through this.
All media has suffered at least one "backlash" period based on ignorance and fear.
If all we do is shout at the other side and label them extremists, that ignorance and fear cycle will just repeat.
I've killed entire armies.
I've destroyed nations and brought about World War III.
I've robbed thousands of banks.
I've fought against demons until I became one myself.
I've survived alma and her twisted world.
I've sent honest people to their doom, and dishonest people to their deaths.
I've helped a group of freedom fighters free humanity from oppression by killing a third of the remaining human population under the control of the combine.
I've chainsaw'ed zombies in half and laughed maniacly while doing so.
I've seen The Rock go from psychopath to demonic psychopath.
And then just the other day, I pulled over on the highway to call for a tow truck to come help out a family that had engine problems. Was a bit of money out of my pocket but I felt so good doing it.
Videogames have made me pure evil.
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Rap is ruining our children! That's not music and they shouldn't try and teach them that it is. *frowny face*
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I beg to differ!
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I disagree also! Clearly Ghostface Killah is the pinnacle of human musical achievment!
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Rap is ruining our children! That's not music and they shouldn't try and teach them that it is. *frowny face*
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I beg to differ!
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I disagree also! Clearly Ghostface Killah is the pinnacle of human musical achievment!
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Are there a lot of allusions to [censored] drugs and violence against innocents in his songs? Or is my sarcastic meter broken?
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Rap is ruining our children! That's not music and they shouldn't try and teach them that it is. *frowny face*
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I beg to differ!
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Well... I beg to differ to differ on begging!
Currently struggling with youtube's post reply post limit.
Last I checked, 496<500.
The thing is: Even if this is framing a debate, it's doing so in a way that would make the people who should see it figure that they don't have to. They 'know' the content and message just from the soundbites of the trailer.
By presenting a documentary in this way, the sensationalism will actually hurt the issue.
My Motto: "Debt is merely another Goal."
"Wow Abalest--you manage to start a discussion even when you ain't given a topic" -Ghostman
Abalests on Infinity:
Miss Fulcrum
Dark Soul Golem
Power Drain
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The thing is: Even if this is framing a debate, it's doing so in a way that would make the people who should see it figure that they don't have to. They 'know' the content and message just from the soundbites of the trailer.
By presenting a documentary in this way, the sensationalism will actually hurt the issue.
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Which is percisely the way this whole thing is being handled, it would seem. It's not being handled on an intelligent, logical level. It's not being presented as a scientific study that may have implications. It's presented like the latest, greatest problem of society. Frankly, I find it a bit insulting that we are being scared by all of these "facts" and that the whole point of this movie is to concenr and scare the audience into believing something, rather than actually presenting convincing evidence.
"People can learn to fly jets in a state-of-the-art aircraft simulator, so any kid can learn to shoot people in the head off a PSX." That's utter nonsence, but boy is it scary! Our children could be learning how to become mass murderers under our very noses! Let's just ignore the fact that flight school is more than just a simple simulator, and there's a worl of difference between flying a plane and shooting real-life people with a face. It's the scare tactics that matter.
I consider myself an intelligent person, so when someone is trying to feed me scary stories in an attempt to get me to make a rash, illogical decision driven by fear and superstition, then I find that insulting. Movies like this try to approach me in a way as though I'm not smart enough to think for myself and evaluate any evidence, that I need to be fed the conclusions directly.
There is a marked difference between someone telling you a fact and someone trying to convince you of a fact. This movie falls squarely in the latter category.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Rap is ruining our children! That's not music and they shouldn't try and teach them that it is. *frowny face*
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I beg to differ!
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I disagree also! Clearly Ghostface Killah is the pinnacle of human musical achievment!
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Are there a lot of allusions to [censored] drugs and violence against innocents in his songs? Or is my sarcastic meter broken?
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Your sarcasm meter is broken. I hope that post didn't break it. I was being pretty sarcastic.
What's unfortunate is that it will work.
Why can I say that?
Elections since 2000.
The information has been covered up by 'truthiness' (to trot out that increasingly-overused chestnut) that plays not to the logical mind, but to the emotions of the viewer. Facts are boring!
With prejudice and misinformation, extremists have done a great deal of damage to America's economy, morality, and foreign policy.
There's no reason to expect the successful tactics won't work again.
Hmph. That trailer needs a ticker disclaimer, even if it's just the lead-in to a balanced debate.
Documentaries should NOT create bias in any way leading into the program, even if it's intentioned only to get people to watch.
My Motto: "Debt is merely another Goal."
"Wow Abalest--you manage to start a discussion even when you ain't given a topic" -Ghostman
Abalests on Infinity:
Miss Fulcrum
Dark Soul Golem
Power Drain
You know I sent this link to my mom as a part of a larger conversation we were having about using fear to drum up support or outrage. Here is what she wrote back.
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I will look at your site later, as I am on the run with Dad. But just the lastest of dumb, "Don't try this at home" was omitted from Samdam's hanging. So what do you know an American boy, 10 years old imitated the hanging and is now dead.
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Okay, what the [censored] is wrong with our children?!
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Okay, what the [censored] is wrong with our children?!
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Nothing that Natural Selection won't cure.
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Okay, what the [censored] is wrong with our children?!
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Nothing that Natural Selection won't cure.
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I agree. Kid wants to imitate hanging: gets hanged. Sounds to me like the system is working as intended.
Don't want to spam the thread with this message, but please don't paint the entire film as alarmist antigamer based on some of the quotes.
I took a look at the stuff on this- the director isn't an anti-game crusader, and of the speakers he interviewed, more are game advocates, very competent public speakers, and noteworthy for NOT being duped into speaking in something that would take them out of context.
Besides, given that the "best quotes" for the other side are practically ametuerish in their sensationalism, it might be entertaining.
It's about the intent, more so than the content of the message. I'm not sure who the director or the speakers are, but the movied carries an overbearing sense of intent. It WANTS you to be concerned and scared. It was made with that purpuse in mind, and it shows.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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What I have found the most ludicrous about these "moral crusades" is that the connection between fantasy and reality... Just isn't there. You see images on the screen and you go "ZOMG THAT IS SO REALISTIC!!!" Well, it's not. Real life is more than sound and visuals. Real life is perceived much more completely by your mind and body. For example, in a game it's just as easy to commit to jump over a pot hole as it is over a botmless chasm. In real life, not so much.
My own personal experience has been much to that effect. Long before I earned my driver's license, as well as long after I did, I played racing simulators and otherwise car-based games, such as Carmageddon. Sure, they're intense and sure, they're sometimes scary when you crash really bad. But when I sit behind the wheel, it very quickly sinks in that this time, it's my life on the line. If I flip over, I don't just hit Backspace a few times - I die. If I hit someone else, I don't score point - they die and I get in a whole lot of trouble.
And even if I don't really think about it, in the back of my mind there's feeling constantly reminding me. The same one that scares me to death when I see someone do something stupid on the road. I saw an idiot try to overtake a large truck and was this close to having his car sliced in half by another speeding truck in the next lane over. I didn't think "That was so cool!" I thought "Oh, my God! That guy could have died just like that!"
I will go out on a limb and say that most people can feel the world of difference between what goes on on a screen and what happens to you when you actually go out and do something. I'll also say that if people find themselves unable to tell that difference, then they have a problem bigger than what they see on the screen. So if it's not video games, it will be TV. If not, it will be a book, a newspaper, a magazine, a comic book. It might be a story they heard, or a person they saw do something stupid. Or they might just end up continually imagining doing something stupid.
It's pretty silly to compare video games to flight simulators. I wish we could hear from an actual pilot that has trained on a flight simulator, but even then I'll bet my piggy bank that it wasn't just like the real thing and they did have to do some adjusting and adaptation to the real thing. An that's the US Army's simulator that has your seat rolling all over the place, not an office chair and a 17'' flatscreen.