[ QUOTE ]
AI critters have always 'cut and run' if they consider themselves unable to win an encounter. The behavior you describe is consistent with that condition.
It is not impossible that the AI is flipping to 'run away' mode too easily for some reason. Reading Aett_Thorns post, it does not sound like this is the case, but if you can get some solid data to back it up it'd definitely be worth looking into.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been seeing them cut and run recently while playing as my dark scrapper. One run through a basic attack chain (Shadow punch, smite, shadow punch, shadow maul) and I've seen bosses take off running -- while they can still easily hit me.
It's annoying how things like having 20% defense will leave the enemies sitting there bashing away, but having 20% -toHit makes them flee. Could it be changed to be consistent at least? Make them do a full calculation on their chances to hit, so toHit debuffs aren't more flee-causing than simple defenses. Then everyone can suffer the pain, and maybe the whole run code will be modified to not include that 
Lately, I think everyone has noticed a lot of runners, but I don't think there has been a change to the AI.
What has changed? The numbers of lieuts and bosses spawning in missions.
Lieutenants in general were recently increased in overall presence on mission maps, and the lieutenants themselves are the ones I notice fleeing for their lives more than others. It isn't with all factions, but it's pretty consistent. Council lieutenants, for example, will almost always take off running when their hit points get low enough. However, this was all *before* the patch that everyone seems to be claiming changed things. Maybe gauntlet's changes are interacting with the AI in an unfavorable manner (where before gauntlet would have stopped them, and now it has a tohit roll and thus less of a chance to hit).
Like others have mentioned, Freakshow bosses are pretty consistent in running for their lives. Most lieutenents seem to do so as well. More lieutenants spawning lately equals more mobs that run, so it could seem to be an AI change, when in fact there hasn't been one, just an increase in the number of enemies that behave that way. Gauntlet suddenly having a chance to fail as opposed to always working will definitely allow for an increased amount of runners that can get away, which is a significant and noticeable difference.
I suppose that the things that concern me are not so much that the mobs are doing this per se. A more sophisticated AI is a Good Thing.
My concerns are the possibility that fleeing mobs may reacquire aggro on new targets other than myself; and that the pathfinding may take them to places where they are hard to find - a serious nuisance in kill-all missions.
You also have many missions in which a hostage will not realize he has been freed until each enemy from that group is defeated. Fleeing minions should break the hold on the victims like dead ones do. If the fleeing minion wanders away behind a wall of crates or is found in the middle of another spawn, this could make those missions much more painful.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Hey everybody!
If you're providing an example of strange behavior, make sure to differentiate between 1.) losing aggro directly to another teammate and 2.) having foes run away. They are two very different things.
Also, a demo file might be helpful, but otherwise, describing the situation in detail might help, too. Things like level and AT of team members, type and level of foes, active powers, etc.
That said, I just sent _Castle_ a demo file with my level 50 Tanker being unable to obtain aggro at all on a Lt in a even-level Carnical mission using Invincibility. I noticed this while i was doing some of my Taunt testing. I have not seen any increase in fear effects so far, even after taking foes down significantly in health.
[ QUOTE ]
Castle, Without any reservation at all, something is very different. I was running missions the day before the patch and missions right after the servers came back with the patch, I am seeing LTs and Bosses really run away...and far in some cases. In one example, a Council LT ran away, I ignored him and continued to beat on the minions. He then ran right by me and kept going in the other direction. I paused my combat to shoot him a taunt and he never flinched....just kept running. I later found him standing around about 40 feet from his original position as if it was where he should be.
Another example was a named CoT boss. He took off in the sewers and I never saw him again until I went looking for him. Lucky for him I was pretty busy with his 2 LTs to worry about it at the time.
It is not a question of being new or different...it is absolutely different....the real question(s) is 1) Is there a non-noted change? 2) Is this an intended reaction? and 3) Why in the world would you make a boss or lt run away like that from a melee AT with taunt enhancements in his aura and has to spam Taunt to keep the bugger in the visible area?
Overwhelming evidence this has changed. Please just acknowledge this and begin reviewing it for an error or just tell me this ridiculous change is intended so I can shelf the tank once again, because I have no interest in chasing down bad guys when I have no immobs or holds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Same thing happened to me yesterday. Chilling embrace wasn't aggroing and gauntlet was off, sometimes enemies even ignored "punchvoke". Missions were done in the new faultline area.
But all this started with the new patch. Something is definitely wrong.
Maybe that was the "fix" to invulnerability!!! Make the AI ignore all tanks "auras" randomly!!! An "extra-nerf" to keep us on our toes!!! 
Edited to include more specific info:
-Rescue girl's dad (the oriental guy's storyarc), don't remember the name mission in faultline.
-Enemies: Lost
-Difficulty: Rugged
-Ice tank level 19, 2 arrow blasters level 19, 1 peacebringer level 19, Katana scrapper level 19
-My active powers: Frozen armor, Chilling embrace, Wet ice, Glacial armor and SS attacks: Jab, Haymaker.
[ QUOTE ]
Or a variation... Now that Gauntlet has a ToHit roll, it's allowing the 'I'm low on health and must flee' mob AI to kick in when there actually is a miss.
[/ QUOTE ]
As I stated in my post above... looking at the patch notes, the tohit check for Gauntlet should be happening ONLY on GM/AVs. Nothing in the patch notes state that Gauntlet requires a tohit check on Bosses or under.
Castle, can you clarify this? Should Gauntlet be making a tohit check against Minions,LTs and Bosses?
[ QUOTE ]
AI critters have always 'cut and run' if they consider themselves unable to win an encounter. The behavior you describe is consistent with that condition.
It is not impossible that the AI is flipping to 'run away' mode too easily for some reason. Reading Aett_Thorns post, it does not sound like this is the case, but if you can get some solid data to back it up it'd definitely be worth looking into.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know the behavior you're referring to, and this is not what's happening. And it's only started since the very last patch.
Tanks are having a much harder time holding aggro, as if their taunt auras aren't working correctly.
Here is a typical example: previous to the last patch an ice tank running chilling embrace can enter a room, make a quick pass past all the mobs so they're hit with CE, and the mobs will then all converge on the tank, despite taking damage from other members of the team.
But this is not happening now. Using the exact same technique results in many of the mobs not being drawn to the tank, even tho you can clearly see them affected by CE (you can see the cold/slow f/x). It's as if either the taunt effect in CE is gone or greatly reduced.
Before, the tank could hold aggro of the entire mob, but now only seems to keep 4 or 5 around him while the rest swarm all over the place attacking whomever they see. Something definitely has changed, and since it's easy to reproduce, you shouldn't have any trouble seeing what we're talking about -- just try tanking for a team for yourself and see how much more difficult it is to keep things under control.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or a variation... Now that Gauntlet has a ToHit roll, it's allowing the 'I'm low on health and must flee' mob AI to kick in when there actually is a miss.
[/ QUOTE ]
As I stated in my post above... looking at the patch notes, the tohit check for Gauntlet should be happening ONLY on GM/AVs. Nothing in the patch notes state that Gauntlet requires a tohit check on Bosses or under.
Castle, can you clarify this? Should Gauntlet be making a tohit check against Minions,LTs and Bosses?
[/ QUOTE ]
That has to be what is occuring.
Juzam
Tanker aficionado
Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.
<QR>
There was a thread about this a couple of weeks ago, also (before the new patch).
Here's a link to my little anecdote, from 11/21 - the thread was started on 11/17: RE: MOB Run Code Change?
I can't say that I've noticed any changes with the recent patch. I've been chasing things with my brute for a bit, but with Air Superiority, Lightning Reflexes, and now Lightning Rod, I can usually catch them pretty easily. 
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
[ QUOTE ]
AI critters have always 'cut and run' if they consider themselves unable to win an encounter. The behavior you describe is consistent with that condition.
It is not impossible that the AI is flipping to 'run away' mode too easily for some reason. Reading Aett_Thorns post, it does not sound like this is the case, but if you can get some solid data to back it up it'd definitely be worth looking into.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been noticing this a lot more...well, I haven't played since before Thanksgiving, but it was definitely more prevalent back then than I remember it being several months ago. While this may be working as intended...it is no fun at all to have to chase down every single mob because they all run once you start laying into them.
<QR>
Mobs are running at the START of the fight too, at least low-level ones. Was on a new Scrapper last night, engaged a typical street group of 3 +1 Hellions and one took off IMMEDIATELY, before I had even HIT anything. Have seen this on my lowbie Tanks as well.
I have seen Bosses run many times, you'd think a Boss would NEVER run, since they're supposed to be setting an example for the rest of the gang. Some Lts (Tsoo Sorcs, Skyraider Porters and Rikti Headmen are NOTORIOUS for this) are supposed to pop in and out of fights in order to hit you from behind as often as possible, but running away? That's messed up.
As far as the "run if we can't win" thing, if that's the case, then WHY would the mobs engage in the first place? If they "know" they can't win, wouldn't they not aggro to begin with?
On a related note, is there a level cap on this run code? I have never seen any Lt or Boss run above about the mid-30s (which isn't saying it hasn't happened). Alternatively, are some factions coded to just not run? Malta, Carnies, and Rikti sure don't IME.
[ QUOTE ]
AI critters have always 'cut and run' if they consider themselves unable to win an encounter. The behavior you describe is consistent with that condition.
It is not impossible that the AI is flipping to 'run away' mode too easily for some reason. Reading Aett_Thorns post, it does not sound like this is the case, but if you can get some solid data to back it up it'd definitely be worth looking into.
[/ QUOTE ]
How about ya just do away with the whole "Cut and Run" thing period? Broken or not, it's annoying as hell. No one likes chasing them down.
For the record, I noticed this behavior amongst +/-0 to +1 Council while streetsweeping solo in IP as a Lv 23 Defender; they were clearly running when before they likely would not have.
Understanding how the AI arrives at the decision to run requires that we know what the AI is supposed to know. My questions are as follows:
1) Does the AI have a similar "consider" ability as players? For example, against my L23 Defender, would the +1 (to me) Council see me as -1 (to him)? If this is the case, the AI should (generally) not run from opponents that are -1 or below unless other factors decree it.
2) Does the AI have the ability to see players' health/end bars, as we do? If this is the case, the AI should (generally) not run from opponents who are at or below 25% health or are completely exhausted of endurance.
3) Does the AI keep track of how much damage an opponent has dealt to it? If so, the AI should (generally) run from an opponent who is able to dish out an average of 50% or more of its REMAINING health in one shot. It should also probably get a strong self-preservationist urge if it's below 10% health.
4) The AI should be smart enough to run from environmental hazards (caltrops, fire, etc.) in a direction AWAY from identified threats. ie If the Council soldier mentioned in the above example suddenly finds himself in the middle of a field of caltrops, he should not make a beeline towards the SS/Inv Tanker who just popped nine red candies. Does this happen already?
5) Some street encounters, specifically "drug deals", often are scripted with one or more of the mobs giving orders for his buddy to bail; the recipient of these orders then flees. This is good behavior (and to the best of my knowledge still working) but I seriously doubt any of the four Jutals that are +5 to my Emp/Arch Defender will feel the need to flee as I casually sneak by. Is it possible for mobs that are sufficiently high-level to "get brave" and ignore the orders to bail?
I'm interested in seeing how this plays out. My Defender is too ditzy to be a threat; nobody should be running from her. Can we roleplay harmlessness, too, or is that just too hard to code for?
some of the people blaming it on the gauntlet fix are short sighted how can it be a gauntlet code fix .. if other scrappers and defenders have posted this in this thread and other threats/forums?
my dark/dark scrapper has NO auto taunt. no taunt at all and no gauntlet ... and again today doing just random hunting in boomtown ive had bosses run away before i can complete my attack chain. i do not have cloak of fear but i DO use my death shroud damage aura.
now ive not notice this behaviour on my villains.. but on several heroes and not only tanks. so honestly the gauntlet to hit code cant be the problem when scrappers and defenders and blasters SOLOING are having problems with LT's and higher suddenly running ALOT more often and before they take signifigant damage.
Street spawns in brickstown have done this for as long as I can remember (even back in issue 5), there is almost always one dedicated "runner" in the crey and freakshow groups. who will do nothing but run or occasionally fire a ranged attack if prodded enough.
QFT,
Im a BS-regen scrapper with no range, ok and mobs, when the get low on health just start running away trying to drag you through other mobs. This has been happening like 90% of the time since issue 8. Something HAS changed because ive been playing since issue 3 and what I have described has NOT been happening (to the degree that we have been seeing) before issue 8 !
Pls Devs, this is very frustrating for us toons that have no range or holds, its not fun!
50 EM / SR Stalker
50 Spines / Regen Stalker
50 Claws / SR Stalker
50 DM / DA Stalker
42 DM / EA Stalker
40 Nin / Nin Stalker
[ QUOTE ]
<QR>
Mobs are running at the START of the fight too, at least low-level ones. Was on a new Scrapper last night, engaged a typical street group of 3 +1 Hellions and one took off IMMEDIATELY, before I had even HIT anything. Have seen this on my lowbie Tanks as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
i've been seeing something similar to this on my (currently) level 12 Mind/Rad controller. When engaging Troll spawns in particular, using confuse on what is apparently the "designated runner" (typically a Gardvord) instead of attacking his allies the mob will instantly take off running until long out of sight. When the runner finally returns, attacking with any power or confusing the mob will make him instantly take off running again. When using non-mezzing attacks (including the permatemp attacks) the mob will occasionally make a single attack before sprinting like mad. This is even with +1 enemies who have not taken any damage or even tried attacking me at all. i've also seen this behavior with Skulls, Council, Outcasts and Hellions. Generally the fleeing mob is a lt., though i've seen minions do it. Bosses usually stay around to fight.
My 28 Ice/EM tanker has been seeing similar running behavior from most enemy types i can recall fighting recently. (Tsoo, Warriors, Council, Fir Bolg and Freaks as best as i can recall.) Generally speaking, the easiest way to make them run is to hit them with taunt. One application of taunt as i charge a fresh group is usually enough to make a lt. take off running. Most of the time targetting the runner with taunt a second time has little effect, he keeps running anyway. Occasionally the second taunt does make him pause long enough to fire off a single ranged attack before continuing to run. Note that this is even when soloing and the only attacks used at that point is Taunt and/or Chilling Embrace.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Got at response from _Castle_ concerning this issue on the Brute board, here.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
are we talking about a single mob running here or a lot of mobs running at 50% now?
if it is one mob running that has always happened when streetsweeping. and if i remember right usually a little extra influence for defeating the runner?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AI critters have always 'cut and run' if they consider themselves unable to win an encounter. The behavior you describe is consistent with that condition.
It is not impossible that the AI is flipping to 'run away' mode too easily for some reason. Reading Aett_Thorns post, it does not sound like this is the case, but if you can get some solid data to back it up it'd definitely be worth looking into.
[/ QUOTE ]
How about ya just do away with the whole "Cut and Run" thing period? Broken or not, it's annoying as hell. No one likes chasing them down.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Cut and run" has been around for awhile, but previously I've only seen this happen in the situations Castle indicated -- when "smarter" foes like LTs, bosses, AVs, etc. get to a low level of health (usually around 25%), or when foes realize their attempts to fight you are futile, either because you're a significantly higher level than they are (take a lvl 50 into a lowbie mish, hit one guy with brawl, and everyone runs for hills) or after repeated attempts at attacking you they don't connect (which can happen if you have high defense or very good debuffs).
Now I'm not entirely sure this exact behavior has been happening more since the patch, I honestly haven't noticed one way or the other.
But what I and others are speaking about is completely different, and seems to be related to taunt auras and/or gauntlet, where mobs that previously would have stuck to the tank like glue aren't anymore, and instead are running around all willy-nilly attacking anything and anyone they can find. It has nothing to due with their health, ability to hit us, or extreme level differences.
It's important to note that we're talking about 2 very different things in this thread, one of which has been around for awhile, and the other which has been only since the last patch (tho I can understand how one can easily been interpreted as the other).
[ QUOTE ]
...but if you can get some solid data to back it up it'd definitely be worth looking into.
[/ QUOTE ]NOt to be a .butthead. here...
It just saddens my heart a tad to think that not everyone who plays this game has the knowledge or a clue as to how to gather "solid data" and the impliations that revolve around that.
I see JOe at work allways chippery and hard working and then one week he is not. DO I really need to be a Doctor or a Therapist to know something is wrong?
Ah well carry on lol
"Does that mean the game is "no fun"? Nope...In other words: meh, it beats hell out of doing the dishes. But it's no where near as fun as it was."-ScionofSatan
Apparently Castle did a bit of data mining on his own and discovered that the Taunt auras are broken at the moment, and the Gauntlet effect from pool attacks has NEVER worked. So I guess he'll be working this weekend.
Virtue:
Rockburner, Fire/Stone Tanker (50)
Doc Disaster, Earth/Storm Controller (44)
Icewall, Inv/Ice Tanker (42)
Wings, MA/Inv Scrapper (42)
Shockblast, Elec/Elec Blaster (36)
..and many others.
I tried to play around with my lvl 10 Brute tonight and my husband and I spent one hour chasing down Lts to finish a mission in Port Oakes.
Mission was defeat PitBull and thugs.
Dark/Elec Brute lvl 10
Ice/Kin Corr lvl 8
I had my husband hang around the corner away from the mooks. I would run into a group of 5 or so with 2-3 Lts. As soon as I got close, 2 or more Lts would take off running. I did not do any damage to the ones that ran.
I realize I do not have taunt or an aura yet. I have never had +1 Mook Lts run just by getting close to them. If I ran after them they would run further. Sometimes all they had to do was see me and they would run. We managed to finish the mission by defeating the minions first then praying AS stuck as we ran after the Lts. 
I hope this is a glitch that will be fixed.
We didn't have any problems with minions. A few ran at low health but that is normal for us. The Lts were the problem.
**Guardian is the cookie capital of CoX!**
50 Fire/Rad Corruptor ~ 50 Dark/Rad Corruptor ~ 50 Rad/Dark Corruptor ~ 50 EM/Elec Brute ~ 45 Mind/Psi Dominator
Many Villains under 40. All of my Heroes are retired.
[ QUOTE ]
AI critters have always 'cut and run' if they consider themselves unable to win an encounter. The behavior you describe is consistent with that condition.
It is not impossible that the AI is flipping to 'run away' mode too easily for some reason. Reading Aett_Thorns post, it does not sound like this is the case, but if you can get some solid data to back it up it'd definitely be worth looking into.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, and we've been surmising that's the problem with Scrapyard and Deathsurge when you have higher level players involved in the fight, although as Giant Monsters they shouldn't, or, if even they should run, they shouldn't do it so quickly.
Is this the problem with MM pets and caltrops? MM pets can target caltrops and be aggroed by caltrops though they can't actually attack them. If the caltrops are attacking the pets, and the pets can't attack back this targetable 'foe', then they 'cut and run' very, very, very, very far away.
Is the 'cut and run' AI the same as the 'run away because I'm Feared' AI?
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
Yeah, I'm wondering if it was an AI thing. I created a brand new Ice/EM tanker last night, and in missions I've done before on other characters, the mob behavior seemed...odd. Lots of Hellions in one mission were doing the boombox emote, for instance (certainly made it easy to find them, I must say). And lots of runners trying to lead me further into the mission, and thus into traps. I'm used to that happening sometimes, but for one mission it was literally every mob, pre-frozen aura at least. I'd chip 'em down in health, and they'd decide to take off. In one case, I knocked out one from a set of three, knocked the second down to a sliver of health, and both he and his *untouched* remaining partner headed for the hills. Once I got my lovely aggro aura, they seemed to stick around fine.
Gauntlet...I'm not sure. Aggro gain is certainly possible (I helped out a lowbie blaster last night with my freeze aura--well, I was level 6 by then, he was 4--by just standing next to the minions who were trying to kill him, not attacking; they came after me fine, and stopped going after him completely), but it's too early for me to tell if my 'punchvoke' is working any differently.