Official Thread: Travel Power Changes
By
absinthe182,
Posted on: 2006-11-14 20:49 in Developers' Corner
I just think that the speed cap on flight should be AT LEAST equal to the STARTING speed of SS.
It wouldn't be faster than the (capped) speed of teleport, ss or jump, but at least it wouldn't be the "OMG, we have to wait HOW long for that person now" power that it is.
I like flight, I like being able to point myself in the direction I'm going and get there. My /sr scrapper is actually at the top of the flight cap without slotting much, but she could still stand being faster.
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What should FLIGHT be faster THAN?
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I think maybe you are asking the wrong question.
Perhaps the right question should be "Why should flight, at the cap, be slower than the base speed of the other powers?"
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You need to change teleport so that the rooting hover can be disabled at the player's will by pressing the forward or backward key.
This would still allow them to turn around to find a suitable teleportation target while hovering, but for all other times (such as combat teleporting), we need the ability to break the hover immediately and hit the ground fighting.
The hover is especially annoying when you want to get off an interruptable power but can't until you've already been dropped.
It would be a huge quality of life issue change for my teleportation dedicated characters.
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Something like base speed 56.9, max speed 94.5? At that point, it maxxes out at unenhanced SS, it's still slower than everything else, and it should only take two slots to cap speed (though it needs the full benefit from both to cap, whereas SS and SJ only need 43% and 56% total enhancement).
Follow with a simple tweak to hover -- hover no longer debuffs your base flight speed (meaning you would fly at the same speed as your unenhanced run speed, as base run and base fly speeds are identical). That way, Hover is not the only "travel power" that actually makes you slower.
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Why should fly be "slower than everything else"? Because you can just fly in a straight line unobstructed? That's the same logic Blizzard used when making their first flying mount in WoW's expansion slower than the cheaper epic ground mount; I disagreed with it there and I disagree with the premise here.
First of all, I don't meet many people who don't take both SS and SJ. When you put the two together, you have just as much "straight line" manuverability as fly. Even if there's a building you can't jump straight over, you can run around it. There's literally no obstacle that slows you down going "as the crow flies" from one point to the other unless you're just not paying attention.
Secondly, flight, as a power pool, pales in comparison to both Speed and Leaping. Speed gives Hasten and Acrobatics, Leaping gives Combat Jumping.. Flight gives Hover's anti-knockback and.. uh.. a very situational group fly.
To summarize, SS and SJ are superior travel powers, speed wise, and both pools provide excellent synergy with other powers whereas Fly is slower and the pool provides little to no synergy with other powers. Doesn't this strike anyone else as being just, well, wrong?
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Fly should be slower than everything else as it minimizes risk while maximizing mobility. SJ can land you in nasties and gives less control than flight, as well as less vertical movement and control. SS gives you the highest speed, but with an absolute lack of vertical mobility.
If you look at my numbers, I used base SS speed for capped flight speed, which should be fast enough not to be a burden compared to choosing other travel powers, then set the base speed to the number that two enhancements would put it at cap (just as SS and SJ do), as opposed to the 8 required currently.
I also requested that Hover not remain the only "travel" power that makes you move slower. The most reasonable answer to that is to have it let you fly at "base flight speed", which is your unenhanced running speed, still modified by swift of course, since swift buffs both run and flight speeds.
It maintains the general rule that increased vertical mobility = reduced lateral mobility (hence SS is faster than SJ is faster than flight) but doesn't make flight suck nearly so much. A capped Fly would be a base SS or a partly enhanced SJ.
I figure it's a better answer that wanting things to work in the other direction, and demanding a -jump -run component to Combat Jumping. =p
Are there any new travel powers in the works? I dug out my PS2 this week and started playing the Spider-man games again and thought the web-swinging would be a good addition. Maybe make it variable in appearance so you can do webs, a grapple line, tendrils of dark energy, etc.
Thanx!
can we get some flight aids like a heads up display with Artificial Horizon and an altitude indicator... Something like a jet fighter combo display, anything would be better than nothing...
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Are there any new travel powers in the works? I dug out my PS2 this week and started playing the Spider-man games again and thought the web-swinging would be a good addition. Maybe make it variable in appearance so you can do webs, a grapple line, tendrils of dark energy, etc.
Thanx!
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Never gonna happen, not with the constant threat of lawsuits from Marvel and others. Marvel would be on NCSoft like white on rice if any kind of web-swinging were put in. Or web-shooting control powers, or anything of the kind.
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First of all, I don't meet many people who don't take both SS and SJ. When you put the two together, you have just as much "straight line" manuverability as fly. Even if there's a building you can't jump straight over, you can run around it. There's literally no obstacle that slows you down going "as the crow flies" from one point to the other unless you're just not paying attention.
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Let me get this straight, you are suggesting that taking 2 powers from the Flight pool be equivalent to taking 4 powers between the Leaping and Super Speed pools?
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Secondly, flight, as a power pool, pales in comparison to both Speed and Leaping. Speed gives Hasten and Acrobatics, Leaping gives Combat Jumping.. Flight gives Hover's anti-knockback and.. uh.. a very situational group fly.
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Acrobatics is in Leaping, first off. Other than actually making you go *faster/higher* than your base numbers, Combat Jumping is a lot like Hover. A weaker version of the normal travel power that doesn't suppress and has a DEF buff. Hasten and Acrobatics are very nice powers. Hasten is taken by a lot of players because of how powerful it is, and Acrobatics is great for avoiding being knocked around or Held as often. In comparison, Air Superiority is good for melee characters, as it gets the target somewhere they (or their team) can reach it better. Hover is like Combat Jumping, except that it's the only power in a travel pool that makes you move more slowly. Again, removing the penalty to base fly speed when using Hover would make it tolerable.
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Let me ask you this, Blue Collar:
What should FLIGHT be faster THAN?
And why?
I mean, if it was faster than teleport... no one would take teleport. Except maybe for concept.
If it was faster than SJ, well, people would still take SJ for concept and the other powers in its pool, but why should the characters who might accidentally get thrown into a mob or who might miss their landing and take a load of fall damage be further penalized by also having what would then be the slowest travel power in the game?
If Fly was faster than SS... well, damn. Safe, vertical travel or ground-based and weaving between buildings and getting lost all the time? What would YOU pick? Especially given that the speed pool would then only have ONE good power: Hasten.
Don't get me wrong, i'd LOVE to see Fly's speed increased so that i don't have to 3-slot Fly and Swift or get buffed JUST to reach the cap, which is a really lousy cap, but I just can't see any reason to make flight faster than any of the other travel powers.
Perhaps as a compromise, i think maybe having SS, and keeping it active, should boost your flight speed. Obviously, you drain more endurance doing that, which i think is a fair trade-off.
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Really, your choice of travel powers really *should* come entirely down to concept, but still. We are stuck with the limitation that SJ lacks the safety that Flight has, and SS while keeping the safety (being stealthed while running and being out of range before they can attack if they happen to see you run them over) lacks vertical mobility.
As far as what flight should be faster than, do you consider it fair that an unenhanced SS is noticeably faster than a capped Fly?
What about SJ with a single SO, versus Fly w/3 SOs and Swift w/3 SOs?
What about the fact that it only takes 2 SOs to cap SS and SJ, but slotting both Fly and Swift with several SOs to get there for Fly?
How about that you need only take a total of two powers to SS or SJ at capped speed (SS/SJ and a prereq) versus needing a third power to do so with Fly (Fly, it's prereq, and swift), as you can't slot Fly itself with enough bonus to reach it's own cap?
As far as SS boosting flight, unless it boosted it by the speed you get from SS on the ground (ignoring the normal flight cap in the process), who would take SS/Fly over taking both SS & SJ? The SJ/SS route you would be much faster for an equal number of powers.
Fly needs a speed boost and an adjustment to how it scales. Specifically, it needs to be in the same general league as the other travel powers, although it should probably have the lowest cap of them (but a cap somewhere around where you aren't so slow that people with unenhanced travel powers can still outrace you). It also needs it's scaling adjusted so that it can be capped in the same number of enhancements as SS/SJ.
Hover also needs to stop being the only travel power that makes you go slower than base, non-sprinting run speed. Something as simple as removing the debuff to fly speed from the power would do it. It would still be weaker than Combat Jumping (since Combat Jumping increases your ability to Jump from base numbers), while seeming less like a punishment for daring to want a superhero that can fly.
Fly needs to be slower than the others... it's the only one that you really don't need to be active to use (auto pilot)
I don't neccessarily think that it needs to be substantially slower, but if it were as fast as the risk and attention required by the others? who would bother with any of the others?
Teleport actually is extremely hurt by lagging. A lot of the time I find myself hitting the ground before my next port finishes animating because of the lag, I often am falling when I pop back in.
I will agree that hover is humiliatingly slow. Seeing the mundane NPC pedestrians walk faster than you hover around? and the speed makes it impractical for anything beyond hover/sniping (and using fly between mobs)
pfft heck with fly, i want my rocket boosted unicycle!
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Fly needs to be slower than the others... it's the only one that you really don't need to be active to use (auto pilot)
I don't neccessarily think that it needs to be substantially slower, but if it were as fast as the risk and attention required by the others? who would bother with any of the others?
Teleport actually is extremely hurt by lagging. A lot of the time I find myself hitting the ground before my next port finishes animating because of the lag, I often am falling when I pop back in.
I will agree that hover is humiliatingly slow. Seeing the mundane NPC pedestrians walk faster than you hover around? and the speed makes it impractical for anything beyond hover/sniping (and using fly between mobs)
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You'll note that I agree that fly needs to be slower than the others, provided that both are similarly enhanced. What I'm saying is that the top end of fly should meet up with the bottom end of superspeed (since the midpoint of superjump is at about the bottom of superspeed, and that speed increase should put us into the range that it you might not be competitive in a race with the superjump or superspeed guys, but you can at least pretend that you aren't standing still when they go by) and that flight should require the same number of enhancements to reach cap, instead of four times as many.
Oh, and I, too, think a vehicle set of some kind (even if it's a rocket powered unicycle) would be cool, but I'm not sure how you differentiate it from superspeed on the travel power.
You mean people take other travel powers besides Super Jump? Wierd.
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You mean people take other travel powers besides Super Jump? Wierd.
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Yes, unfortunately jumping does not necessarily fit concept for everyone. =p
You all are going to have to buy me a new pair of pants to replace the pair I ruined when I saw the title of this thread in the "Active Topics" list.
Kicking a comatose horse... but if the flyspeed cap is raised to 75.00mph from 58.63mph (is there a balance explanation for this number?), then I think a lot of people here wouldn't be as disgruntled at the disparity of speed between flight and SS, which caps at 92.50mph.
In summation: My only gripe I can come up with is the gap between 58.63 and 92.50.
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You mean people take other travel powers besides Super Jump? Wierd.
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Yes, unfortunately jumping does not necessarily fit concept for everyone. =p
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Superjump looks silly with wings, for example.
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Those are all good ideas, which I would like to see implemented. I was wondering why heroes can't have the power of vehicle travel. You could make it where the pedestrians can't be hit, because the dodge the oncoming vehicle. Other vehicles colliding into the hero's vehicle would just be bumped over with no damage. You could have the vehicle materialize when the player uses the power. You could have motorcycles, cars, vans and trucks, or maybe even a boat or chopper. Maybe your vehicle could be treated as a summoned creature, able to attack and take damage while you occupy it. Other modes of travel would be an excellent addition.
I think that with the changes being made to the epic sets----specifically the way that mulitple powers will open up in a given level---- that the same should be done with the travel sets.
I've played with all the travel powers over the years, and they all have shortcomings that could be worked on, as well as strengths for why people pick them. An extra power at the 3rd or 4th tier would work wonders for most of them. Some of them need adjustment to the existing powers just to remove sillyness.
I'd also like to comment on the attack powers of Flight, Superjump and Superspeed. I won't argue the reletive value of these powers, some people like them, some don't... I do however think that since they are in the 'travel pools' they should involve travel. This seems more possible now than in previous years, since we are getting attacks in some pools like the new Sheild set, or the one in the Electric (melee?/Armor? I don't play it but I've seen it) that teleport you to your foes and then hit them. Air superiority should give a fast flight ending with the hit to the target---allowing melee's to zip up and smash flying foes out of the air, or allowing a hovering person to quickly close and hit while in the air. Jump Kick should be just that---a jumping kick, not the handstand of ridicule it is now, again, a tool to quickly close with a foe and do some damage. Superspeed should get the same treatment. In all cases, the movement should be shut back off once the attack is delivered. Currently Teleport is the only travel power who's 'attack' involves moving the foe or yourself.
Flight- My personal favorite.
I keep coming back and loving this game for this power alone. Nearly no other game has the freedom and fun of a character with fly. Certainly it's the most intuitive travel power to use, the easiest as people say. It's also the only one that actually debuffs your ability to function with it's early power.
I believe that making Hover equal to base run speed is an outright requirement. Even with the speed bonus it got, and including the fact that swift now affects it, using it in combat before you can slot it and Swift with SO's is a death sentence unless you can effectivly keep the mobs attacking someone else, or you abandon the power when you need to flee----how idiotic is that for a 'travel' power? In similar fashion, Flight's speed should be brought up to be more in line with the other travel powers---I don't mean equal to them, but the suggestion I saw earlier in the thread about making flights capped speed the same as or slightly better than Superspeed's unslotted value seems very reasonable to me.
Group Flight is another silly power in the set---mostly because of the accuracy debuff it gives it's victims. I'd like to see 3 things happen here: First, make it a click AOE buff rather than a toggle--the nature of the power severly hamperes it's usefulness as a toggle, for one thing it leaves the person with the toggle faster than those *attempting* to follow, leaving the intended recipients of the power to plummet to their doom. Secondly, make it suppress if any other travel power is active on a character---people who don't want it can run Sprint (and it's prestige varients),Hover,Combat Jumping, Superspeed, Flight or Superjump to supress it's effects, putting the receiving player back in control of their movement. An Alternate to this would be to have it grant a short duration temporary power, but I think this would be more trouble than it's worth---perhaps if you could make it spawn it's own special button on the screen somewhere so as not to mess up anyone's power trays. Lastly, I'd like to see the Accuracy Debuff removed from it---this has got to be one of the only debuffs in the game that you can victimize people with, I can't understand how it's been allowed to last this long. Even if it means making it supress like flight does, the Acc debuff should go.
Supression on Flight is a last flaw reletive to other travel powers.... simply put, it's too slow. Your flight should supress to standard movement speed. If your running Superjump or Superspeed, when it supresses you are at your standard movement and jump abilities, in fact, since sprint, swift and hurdle do not supress and you happen to be running them, your suppressed to that speed instead---Flight however suppresses to the far too slow of unslotted hover with maybe (I'm not sure) the added speed of swift, which may as well be immobilized for all practical purposes. Of course, I also belive that Hover should also be at standard running speed, so if that change were to be made, having it suppress to that level would likely follow naturally.
For a 5th power, I'd suggest one of 2 actually. First, assuming that flight never gets put on par with the other travel powers, a Supersonic flight sounds great--even with a longish recharge time, and/or restrictions such as the inability to attack this is exactly the improvement needed to the set as a whole if the speed of Flight itself stays where it is. A second suggestion, and my favorite of the 2, is a Grant Flight power that is a single target buff---it would be much better than Group Flight (as it currently stands) for Masterminds (or anyone with a groundbased pet) or those wishing to have something fun to spam on newbies in the Hollows.
Superjump- My second favorite
I have much less to say about superjump, mostly because it's practically perfect as it stands, with it's fast speeds, excellent manuverabiliy, and low End cost. If you happen to have the jump pack from the Good Vs. Evil set, this power almost becomes the supersonic flight that our armchair pilots want since you can at that point jump off from any point, including mid air---there is no come down, only an everlasting fully manuverable up at superjump speeds.
The only sillyness I see in this set is Jump Kick---mostly because it's not a jump kick. I spoke on this earlier however, so won't say more here.
A 5th power is difficult to suggest for this set, given it's overall quality and functionality as a set. A Grant Jump could work (why not, we already have Group Flight and TP friend), or a defensive power similar to Repel (you bounce anything that gets close), but I think best power you could give this set is an Auto-power that makes you immune to falling damage.
Superspeed--The gift that keeps on giving.
You look at this set, and you wonder if whoever designed it and superjump didn't have blackmail material on whoever is in charge of balance. In one set you have Hasten, Superspeed, and Whirlwind. Even after several changes to Hasten, it still remains a staple of powergamers.
Once again, the only power of the set that is at all silly is the attack... underperforming, over priced punches--and never mind that for a 'travel pool' power there is no travel involved. But again, my main problem with these attacks are mentioned above. This one gets an additional note that the sound effect for the punches should sound more like Shadowmaul--a quick *flurry* of punches, not the slow lingering pow...pow...pow... of the current sound effect.
I'd put a vote of sillyness in here for hasten too. For all the attempts at nerfage on this power, people still continue to use this as close to permanantly as makes little difference--- it should be turned back into a toggle again. If not for a Defense bonus on it, I'd say just make the dang thing automatic. My personal feelings are that it should be made a runspeed/defense power, Then turn Fitness:Hurdle/Swift into a single power with the second power turned into a Recharge buffing power (coordination training or something). The recharge boost fits thematically with the powerset, but not it's purpose. I know I'm the lunatic fringe here, but I got sick years ago of being told how gimped I make myself for not taking hasten.
However, unlike superjump, a 5th power for the Speedpool is glaringly obvious... A power that gives you the ability to make medium vertical leaps. Unlike Superjump or Combat Jumping though, make these leaps like Hurdle or the Jump Pack----increased height but no extra manuverability. I would not think that the height of superjump would be needed, but enough so that it's cap (plus a capped hurdle) would nearly equal an unslotted superjump would be reasonable.
Teleport- A very mixxed bag.
I like the teleport pool alot. It fits thematically for nearly everyone, since in the game lore you can buy into the cities' teleport grids and is thus available to anyone with the means or influence regarless of origen or powers. The powers themselves, especially Recall:Friend, are very utilitarian, and I'm personally a very big fan of useful utility type powers.
The Silly vote here comes into play for the whole set really... the red circle of doom thing. Please, please fix this. Others can debate the usefullness of Group Teleport, and of them all, I think it has the least utility, but I don't know about it's being actually silly---I just don't think it's a good option for group travel, especially when you can buy in to the set with Recall:Friend. For people who play together alot and can act as an organized team, Group teleport works well to both start and flee combats, making it more situational than most people like---but compared to something like Group Flight it's a godsend.
As for a 5th power, this set is also an easy one--2 actually. First and probably easiest would be an overland (zone) teleport. Simple copy the code for the Orubourus portal, and give it the selections of every zone available, like a supertram--- the team could use it as well as yourself, and all are happy. A second one, and one I'd rather have: A teleport that took you to the map object you currently have selected---or perhaps that popped up a map of the current zone, with selections for any missions, contacts, stores, etc... I would not allow thumbtacks, since they sometimes go funny places, but any of the default game map markers should be good. Of course, the uber 5th power would be a combo: it pops up the portal which gives those that click on it the map, where you can first select the zone you want, then any default map marker in that zone---yep, I just fell right off the end of the lunatic fringe.
I'm afraid this has nothing to do with what all of you are talking about, I think...
I simply wanted to suggest that super speed be changed so that you actually run on top of water. A friend who never played the game before suggested this and I think it would be awesome.
For that matter, why not create swimming powers allowing those players to do aquatic missions.
If they were going to go aquatic, that would probably be a whole update, or perhaps even a new paid-for Expansion...
City of the Depths
Underwater zones, a city, and Coralax Prestige classes. 
I want... nay, DEMAND... giant seahorses to ride on.
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I still wish to hell that they'd add "Epic"-level 5th-choice powers for Travel sets, and that we'd get the old Teleport back.
Short/Medium Ranged Teleport
Activation: ~0.75 seconds
No Cooldown
No Post-Port Movement Suppression
High Endurance drain
AND/OR
Foe-Targeted SELF Teleportation within melee range
Activation: ~0.75 seconds
Cooldown: ~3 seconds
Post-Port Movement Suppression
High Endurance drain
Think Nightcrawler-esque combat mobility.
Let me ask you this, Blue Collar:
What should FLIGHT be faster THAN?
And why?
I mean, if it was faster than teleport... no one would take teleport. Except maybe for concept.
If it was faster than SJ, well, people would still take SJ for concept and the other powers in its pool, but why should the characters who might accidentally get thrown into a mob or who might miss their landing and take a load of fall damage be further penalized by also having what would then be the slowest travel power in the game?
If Fly was faster than SS... well, damn. Safe, vertical travel or ground-based and weaving between buildings and getting lost all the time? What would YOU pick? Especially given that the speed pool would then only have ONE good power: Hasten.
Don't get me wrong, i'd LOVE to see Fly's speed increased so that i don't have to 3-slot Fly and Swift or get buffed JUST to reach the cap, which is a really lousy cap, but I just can't see any reason to make flight faster than any of the other travel powers.
Perhaps as a compromise, i think maybe having SS, and keeping it active, should boost your flight speed. Obviously, you drain more endurance doing that, which i think is a fair trade-off.
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)