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oh wahhh, its not like its a huge bug even if it is a bug. Again the only way I was able to make it happen was with 2 rad corrupters, hasten, and the temp power for the crey map "objects". I have a feeling you need a whole arnsenal of /rad or /kin to replicate that temporary power.
It was still pretty freaking cool, just wanted to relate a story is all.
Oh and to all those complaining about the game being buggy and lack of dev response that is trolling. This thread was strictly for the discussion of achieving overlapping domniation.
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That was actually my intended point when i said it would rarely be realized in game play. It would take alot of recharge buff to get it, prob atleast 2-3 speed boosts i would get, however im still willing to bet that if it allows us to have perma Domination for running that Recluse TF and the domination actually stacks allowing us to break the purple triangles, that even though maybe 1 team a day might achieve the effect, it will be in the next patch to be fix.
See devs seem to worry much more about taking "Unintended" benefits away from us, rather then fixing the imbalances in the intended aspects and shortcomings of our archtype.
Look at all the ATs boards. Read the kinda of big issues that they report, problems with end, secondary effects, over powered villian groups, etc. Wanna bet that this is in a patch soon before 99 percent of any issue fixes that would provide players benefit. Even though the ability to do it is severly limited to like all the planets lining up just right.
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I have one incidental concern, though. As if Kinetics and Radiation weren't unofficially considered the "best" support sets before, this just makes it even worse. "We ned healr" is slowly going away, but it seems like it's just being replaced with "we ned rad".
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Ain't it the truth. I have a /rad corr, and I have to hide from my own VG if I want to be able to play any other toon 
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Its the regen on AVs making that happen, not double domination. If you cant beat something without those particular powers, or it changes a 3 hour mission to 20 minutes, that makes you required. "Doing fine, but a little faster" is nice, but doesnt make people search you out as much as being the only practical way to finish a mission.
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If you gain all of that.... AND controller level holds.... That will NEVER happen. NEVER! Think about it, you would be able to hold just as much as a controller... and do 500000x the damage. I'd be pretty mad, even though I have a dominator, that just goes WAY too far.
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Why would you be mad, this makes no sense? We already have poor damage. Controllers have superior hold times and awsome secondaries to fall back on if control fails. What do we have if control fails? Absolutely nothing. This is why we should have superior controls compared to controllers. Our domination power should have just been icing on the cake and not just a power we live and die by. Honestly would it have really hurt anything if we had controller length holds, critical mez and domination? No it would not, it would make us a little more wanted on teams. We would have reason to finally take those area holds since now we can get them to last a bit longer. Now I would say we would have a huge problem if they gave us containment, along with the before mentioned stuff. That would be going over board.
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And you don't have awesome secondaries to fall back on? Dominators can hold an enemy, making it unable to act, THEN use some blaster powers to quickly take the enemy down. BUT NOW you want the same holds as controllers, MORE damage, and still have domination to raise your damage AND controls up even higher! Oh and I have heard that "dominators need more hp" So now you want controls that could challenge a CONTROLLER's controls, damage that could eventually challenge a blaster, AND more HP than both of them. Sounds pretty selfish
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Dominators can hold an enemy, making it unable to act, THEN use some blaster powers to quickly take the enemy down.
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If we could actually routinely do that, you wouldn't hear so many complaints about doms.
Dom damage up until mid-30s or so is weak, and even then it's average at best. Dom aoe control isn't any good at all until completely slotted out with SOs. Are there ways of dealing with these problems so that playing a dom can be enjoyable? Yes -- and we spend a great deal of time on this board suggesting and reporting slotting and power selection and usage to make the most of what we have. But the idea that doms are uber tank mages seems to far overestimate what the great majority of dom builds can do over the great majority of their careers.
And that's not even considering the triangles of death which, all by itself, is a huge problem for the AT.
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Dominators can hold an enemy, making it unable to act, THEN use some blaster powers to quickly take the enemy down.
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If we could actually routinely do that, you wouldn't hear so many complaints about doms.
Dom damage up until mid-30s or so is weak, and even then it's average at best. Dom aoe control isn't any good at all until completely slotted out with SOs. Are there ways of dealing with these problems so that playing a dom can be enjoyable? Yes -- and we spend a great deal of time on this board suggesting and reporting slotting and power selection and usage to make the most of what we have. But the idea that doms are uber tank mages seems to far overestimate what the great majority of dom builds can do over the great majority of their careers.
And that's not even considering the triangles of death which, all by itself, is a huge problem for the AT.
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Realize that the triangles are not only your problem. Controllers have the same problem. And with that, farewell.
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Dominators can hold an enemy, making it unable to act, THEN use some blaster powers to quickly take the enemy down.
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If we could actually routinely do that, you wouldn't hear so many complaints about doms.
Dom damage up until mid-30s or so is weak, and even then it's average at best. Dom aoe control isn't any good at all until completely slotted out with SOs. Are there ways of dealing with these problems so that playing a dom can be enjoyable? Yes -- and we spend a great deal of time on this board suggesting and reporting slotting and power selection and usage to make the most of what we have. But the idea that doms are uber tank mages seems to far overestimate what the great majority of dom builds can do over the great majority of their careers.
And that's not even considering the triangles of death which, all by itself, is a huge problem for the AT.
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Not to mention PvP issues for doms....
Low damage (comparatively)
Low hitpoints
Low ability to protect oneself (ie. shields and mez protection)
Easily negated primary set (not to mention Suppression, a game mechanic in place to nerf our means of defense!)
All of those add of up an unfair uphill battle in my opinion. You can point to just about any other AT that has one or two of those, but is usually compensated for it with the others, however only doms seem to be fine in the Devs mind with all of those disadvantages.
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
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I have one incidental concern, though. As if Kinetics and Radiation weren't unofficially considered the "best" support sets before, this just makes it even worse. "We ned healr" is slowly going away, but it seems like it's just being replaced with "we ned rad".
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Ain't it the truth. I have a /rad corr, and I have to hide from my own VG if I want to be able to play any other toon
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Its the regen on AVs making that happen, not double domination. If you cant beat something without those particular powers, or it changes a 3 hour mission to 20 minutes, that makes you required. "Doing fine, but a little faster" is nice, but doesnt make people search you out as much as being the only practical way to finish a mission.
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Another interesting observation, has anyone else noticed that instead of improving lackluster ATs/sets that people generally don't play much the dev's answer is to just give foes more abilities that only those ATs/sets can mitigate?
It's a kind of "forced necessity" that doesn't actually make those underused sets more fun to play, just more desireable to reduce the frustration and aggravation of fighting an AV you can't beat. It's like, "what's going to be the AT du jour this issue?"
In the beginning it was tanks, cause no one else could suck up the aggro. Then when tanks got nerfed and foes buffed to the point that tanks could no longer take the aggro, then it was all about empaths/healers. As the great divide between player and foe strengths continued to chasm (so that, according to Statesman, all ATs feel "useful and needed") it became all about control. Once control was elimited from the controllers (yes, it's an oxymoron, but hey, I only PLAY the game), the new thing was buffing (in a futile attempt to get back all the damage, speed, resistances, regen, and defenses we once had). Unfortunately the chasm continues to grow and divide (much like our current economic state), making debuffing the new requiste, since no amount of buffing, healing, or controlling is enough to deal with the foes we now face.
I'm just wondering when it's going to stop. I mean, what else is left? Are the foes just going to keep getting more and more powerful to the point nothing short of a full team of thug MMs with gang war going to be enough to take on a AV?
It's already to the point that AV-level damage is starting to filter down to bosses, and that very specific team compositions are needed to complete even simple everyday tasks such as mayhem missions. And here's a newflash to the devs: THIS DOES NOT MAKE THE GAME MORE FUN. It just makes the game increasingly more frustrating as I'm constantly reminded how pitiful my characters are in relation to what I fight. And when I sign on to play, I want to PLAY, not spend an hour trying to find just the right types of ATs needed to complete my missions.
But whatev, I don't even know why I bother anymore. Others, including myself, have been saying this for well over a year and it's obvious that no one in charge listens, as it only continues to get worse. Honestly I think the only reason I continue to play is cause CoX is the only superhero game in town. If/when someone comes along and provides and alternative that actually makes me feel "super", hell, I'll be all over it like a fly on [censored].
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If you've ever played defenders or scanned the boards for a while you've see the all-rad and all-kin groups running around who have been doing stuff like this for a while now. I don't see why it's a surprise now. If multiple controllers can hold Hammi I'm not sure why people think the devs will shut down this double domination thing.
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Becaue it isn't working as intended. A power that has a 4 minute recharge AND requires people to attack stuff 50 times (minimum) isn't meant to be perma'ed. That's pretty obvious, right?
We can argue about whether we SHOULD feel like Brutes, kept on our Domination high by solid applications of Corruptor buffs (it's comparable) or not, but I'm pretty sure Domination isn't MEANT to work like that.
So I'm sure it'll get fixed.
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In the end I think it depends on how you view the devs.
<ul type="square">[*]If you think they're morons or mean or anti-fun then a person probably thinks it will be shut down. [*]If you think they're reasonable then the first thing they will probably say is "how is this affecting the game"?[/list]
I just don't see it as any more or less game breaking as what a group of /rad or /kin can do to the game.
In essence I think they "allow" the all-rad or a-kin groups to do sick things because it doesn't happen all that often. I've seen demos where AVs are destroyed in something like 15-20s by such groups, and I'm sure the devs didn't plan it that way, but they let it go because it's not like every other group is built this way.
If tons of people starting doing this, and if it results in normal hard parts of the game becoming insanely easy, then I expect they will look at it. Then again, I don't think the devs are evil morons. 
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If you gain all of that.... AND controller level holds.... That will NEVER happen. NEVER! Think about it, you would be able to hold just as much as a controller... and do 500000x the damage. I'd be pretty mad, even though I have a dominator, that just goes WAY too far.
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Why would you be mad, this makes no sense? We already have poor damage. Controllers have superior hold times and awsome secondaries to fall back on if control fails. What do we have if control fails? Absolutely nothing. This is why we should have superior controls compared to controllers. Our domination power should have just been icing on the cake and not just a power we live and die by. Honestly would it have really hurt anything if we had controller length holds, critical mez and domination? No it would not, it would make us a little more wanted on teams. We would have reason to finally take those area holds since now we can get them to last a bit longer. Now I would say we would have a huge problem if they gave us containment, along with the before mentioned stuff. That would be going over board.
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And you don't have awesome secondaries to fall back on? Dominators can hold an enemy, making it unable to act, THEN use some blaster powers to quickly take the enemy down. BUT NOW you want the same holds as controllers, MORE damage, and still have domination to raise your damage AND controls up even higher! Oh and I have heard that "dominators need more hp" So now you want controls that could challenge a CONTROLLER's controls, damage that could eventually challenge a blaster, AND more HP than both of them. Sounds pretty selfish
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I did not say boost our damage anywhere in that previous post. All I said was we needed controller length holds and the occasional critical mez that they get. I did not say containment, that would be too much considering how many of us have alot of aoes. Domination as I said would be like an extra thing for us, kind of like how corrupters have scourge as an inherrent. The key to this is to have an inherrent that is useful but at the same time not be so dependent on it. That is the problem with doms we have now. We are too dependent on this power.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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I'm pretty sure the solution to this is having the dom bar drop after domination is activated, thereby not allowing you to cast it again even though it recharges before the first one wears off, or possibly even coding the power so it can't be affected by -recharge buffs.
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That would be the ideal fix, IMO, if this is deemed worthy enough for a fix. Why? Because once domination is over with, my dom bar would be half to 2/3 charged again. Trigger dom, hit power boost, hit an AoE, then mash mash mash mash, refresh that AoE once, and mash some more to really reap the benefit of that damage buff. I wouldn't lose the beneficial charge from all this attack mashing.
Of course that would probably prove to be too good eventually, and something else get nerfed in the process.
And since we divorced ourselves from the OP a long time ago:
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Let's face it, an even level boss that can do 1500 hps of damage (basically one-shotting everyone except a brute) would require an insane amount of healing, and I doubt that any toon could keep up with it.
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You could always recruit a good dom and hold that SOB instead.
Edited, to make up for my uber skeelz as an editor
Princess Grace - MA/Inv scrapper
Solana - Mind/Energy dominator
Lyonette - Kat/SR scrapper
Again this doesn't make the power perma, it just made it stackable. It took some time in my first domination burst for the domination icon to be ready again (20 seconds later I died). I would assume that the overlap is going to be brief. I have no idea what kind of buff that crey "object" temp power gave me in terms of recharge ability. Or how it stacked with hasten and 2 doses of AM. If someone could generate the amount of time it would take to recharge domination based on those buffs it would be interesting to see math wise.
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If you gain all of that.... AND controller level holds.... That will NEVER happen. NEVER! Think about it, you would be able to hold just as much as a controller... and do 500000x the damage. I'd be pretty mad, even though I have a dominator, that just goes WAY too far.
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Why would you be mad, this makes no sense? We already have poor damage. Controllers have superior hold times and awsome secondaries to fall back on if control fails. What do we have if control fails? Absolutely nothing. This is why we should have superior controls compared to controllers. Our domination power should have just been icing on the cake and not just a power we live and die by. Honestly would it have really hurt anything if we had controller length holds, critical mez and domination? No it would not, it would make us a little more wanted on teams. We would have reason to finally take those area holds since now we can get them to last a bit longer. Now I would say we would have a huge problem if they gave us containment, along with the before mentioned stuff. That would be going over board.
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And you don't have awesome secondaries to fall back on? Dominators can hold an enemy, making it unable to act, THEN use some blaster powers to quickly take the enemy down. BUT NOW you want the same holds as controllers, MORE damage, and still have domination to raise your damage AND controls up even higher! Oh and I have heard that "dominators need more hp" So now you want controls that could challenge a CONTROLLER's controls, damage that could eventually challenge a blaster, AND more HP than both of them. Sounds pretty selfish
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Umm, dude, have you ever played a dominator past, say, level 20?
And I see you have 2 high-level controllers in your sig, but let me ask you, are those pre or post-containment trollers? If pre, do you remember what it was like back then playing a sub level 32 troller? I do, and it wasn't fun. Trollers were squishy, did little damage, and their defender secondaries were of little use in taking out bosses they couldn't hold for more than a few seconds at best. It was very hard to solo a troller back then, so you were pretty much relegated to teams till you got your pets.
Now with containment trollers can do significantly more damage (at the expense of control) which makes them a lot more soloable. Add in the defender secondaries and now they rock on teams too. What they lack in control they make up with double damage and buffs/healing/debuffs.
But dominators aren't so lucky. The can't control as well as controllers (whose controls now suck as it is), meaning it's just not feasible to "hold" a boss, let alone an EB/AV/GM. Domination helps alot in getting that inital boss hold to stick, but in reality it just doesn't last long enough to be overly useful. If you slot your hold for holds, then they last longer, but do less damage, making it more difficult to actually defeat the boss you're holding. If you slot damage into your holds then you can't hold them as long and you're going to take more damage over time. It's a lose-lose situation, IMO.
Couple in the fact you don't have defender secondaries, but blaster secondaries (perhaps the most reviled sets in the entire game) that don't do anywhere near blaster-level damage, and it's an all around "meh". I mean, most of those secondary attacks are MELEE attacks -- on a toon with sub-par damage, no defenses, and no buffs/debuffs. And the devs wonder why so few people play them and no one wants them on teams? 
IMO I think dominators should have BETTER control ability than controllers to make up for their lacking in everything else. As it is now their control is worse, their damage is perhaps on par (due to their secondaries), but they have none of the benefits of the defender secondaries.
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If you gain all of that.... AND controller level holds.... That will NEVER happen. NEVER! Think about it, you would be able to hold just as much as a controller... and do 500000x the damage. I'd be pretty mad, even though I have a dominator, that just goes WAY too far.
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Why would you be mad, this makes no sense? We already have poor damage. Controllers have superior hold times and awsome secondaries to fall back on if control fails. What do we have if control fails? Absolutely nothing. This is why we should have superior controls compared to controllers. Our domination power should have just been icing on the cake and not just a power we live and die by. Honestly would it have really hurt anything if we had controller length holds, critical mez and domination? No it would not, it would make us a little more wanted on teams. We would have reason to finally take those area holds since now we can get them to last a bit longer. Now I would say we would have a huge problem if they gave us containment, along with the before mentioned stuff. That would be going over board.
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And you don't have awesome secondaries to fall back on? Dominators can hold an enemy, making it unable to act, THEN use some blaster powers to quickly take the enemy down. BUT NOW you want the same holds as controllers, MORE damage, and still have domination to raise your damage AND controls up even higher! Oh and I have heard that "dominators need more hp" So now you want controls that could challenge a CONTROLLER's controls, damage that could eventually challenge a blaster, AND more HP than both of them. Sounds pretty selfish
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Umm, dude, have you ever played a dominator past, say, level 20?
And I see you have 2 high-level controllers in your sig, but let me ask you, are those pre or post-containment trollers? If pre, do you remember what it was like back then playing a sub level 32 troller? I do, and it wasn't fun. Trollers were squishy, did little damage, and their defender secondaries were of little use in taking out bosses they couldn't hold for more than a few seconds at best. It was very hard to solo a troller back then, so you were pretty much relegated to teams till you got your pets.
Now with containment trollers can do significantly more damage (at the expense of control) which makes them a lot more soloable. Add in the defender secondaries and now they rock on teams too. What they lack in control they make up with double damage and buffs/healing/debuffs.
But dominators aren't so lucky. The can't control as well as controllers (whose controls now suck as it is), meaning it's just not feasible to "hold" a boss, let alone an EB/AV/GM. Domination helps alot in getting that inital boss hold to stick, but in reality it just doesn't last long enough to be overly useful. If you slot your hold for holds, then they last longer, but do less damage, making it more difficult to actually defeat the boss you're holding. If you slot damage into your holds then you can't hold them as long and you're going to take more damage over time. It's a lose-lose situation, IMO.
Couple in the fact you don't have defender secondaries, but blaster secondaries (perhaps the most reviled sets in the entire game) that don't do anywhere near blaster-level damage, and it's an all around "meh". I mean, most of those secondary attacks are MELEE attacks -- on a toon with sub-par damage, no defenses, and no buffs/debuffs. And the devs wonder why so few people play them and no one wants them on teams?
IMO I think dominators should have BETTER control ability than controllers to make up for their lacking in everything else. As it is now their control is worse, their damage is perhaps on par (due to their secondaries), but they have none of the benefits of the defender secondaries.
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Do you have any idea what you're talking about? We can't hold a boss? All it takes it 2 applications...thats the same for controllers, its about magnitude. The duration scale difference between controllers and dominators post 20 is nearly insignifigant.
The reason we don't have defender secondaries is .... WE ARE NOT CONTROLLERS. Get over that. We do not have blaster secondaries, we have assualt secondaries which are a combination of blaster primaries, and tank secondaries. There is some overlap in blaster secondaries but not a whole lot (ie fire blaster primary powers (flares, fire blast, fire breath, blazing bolt blaze) that leaves consume, fiery embrace (amazing power) and combustion. Three powers out of 8 gee.) Also since when is /nrg for blasters reviled?
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If you've ever played defenders or scanned the boards for a while you've see the all-rad and all-kin groups running around who have been doing stuff like this for a while now. I don't see why it's a surprise now. If multiple controllers can hold Hammi I'm not sure why people think the devs will shut down this double domination thing.
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Becaue it isn't working as intended. A power that has a 4 minute recharge AND requires people to attack stuff 50 times (minimum) isn't meant to be perma'ed. That's pretty obvious, right?
We can argue about whether we SHOULD feel like Brutes, kept on our Domination high by solid applications of Corruptor buffs (it's comparable) or not, but I'm pretty sure Domination isn't MEANT to work like that.
So I'm sure it'll get fixed.
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In the end I think it depends on how you view the devs.
<ul type="square">[*]If you think they're morons or mean or anti-fun then a person probably thinks it will be shut down. [*]If you think they're reasonable then the first thing they will probably say is "how is this affecting the game"?[/list]
I just don't see it as any more or less game breaking as what a group of /rad or /kin can do to the game.
In essence I think they "allow" the all-rad or a-kin groups to do sick things because it doesn't happen all that often. I've seen demos where AVs are destroyed in something like 15-20s by such groups, and I'm sure the devs didn't plan it that way, but they let it go because it's not like every other group is built this way.
If tons of people starting doing this, and if it results in normal hard parts of the game becoming insanely easy, then I expect they will look at it. Then again, I don't think the devs are evil morons.
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Though my knee jerk reaction is to go with #1, I think it's safe to look at how the devs have reacted to issues of this nature in the past -- and it's always been "fix it ASAP". It has little to do with the problem's scope or whether it's game breaking. It has everything to do with how it's something they never intended to allow.
Now it's entirely possible this issue came up in discussions regardling lowering the recharge time of domination and they gave it a "let's wait and see" approach. It's also possible it came up and they just gave it a green light and called it day. Unfortunately it's also possible that it was a complete oversight (most likely possibility, again, going with history) and now that's it's come to light it's gonna get the axe.
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Actually, I was kinda thinking about the irony of everyone always saying how devs never post or read the dom boards and how they would be happy if one just posted occasionally, and now that one does, its all doom and gloom.
Cant have it both ways.
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It's not "Both ways" to want atleast 1 Dev actually addressing the State of Doms themselves, or responding to some of the major issues effecting us... and then be worried or ANGRY when we see the only thing they're interested in is kicking the crutches out from under us
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If you gain all of that.... AND controller level holds.... That will NEVER happen. NEVER! Think about it, you would be able to hold just as much as a controller... and do 500000x the damage. I'd be pretty mad, even though I have a dominator, that just goes WAY too far.
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Why would you be mad, this makes no sense? We already have poor damage. Controllers have superior hold times and awsome secondaries to fall back on if control fails. What do we have if control fails? Absolutely nothing. This is why we should have superior controls compared to controllers. Our domination power should have just been icing on the cake and not just a power we live and die by. Honestly would it have really hurt anything if we had controller length holds, critical mez and domination? No it would not, it would make us a little more wanted on teams. We would have reason to finally take those area holds since now we can get them to last a bit longer. Now I would say we would have a huge problem if they gave us containment, along with the before mentioned stuff. That would be going over board.
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And you don't have awesome secondaries to fall back on? Dominators can hold an enemy, making it unable to act, THEN use some blaster powers to quickly take the enemy down. BUT NOW you want the same holds as controllers, MORE damage, and still have domination to raise your damage AND controls up even higher! Oh and I have heard that "dominators need more hp" So now you want controls that could challenge a CONTROLLER's controls, damage that could eventually challenge a blaster, AND more HP than both of them. Sounds pretty selfish
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Umm, dude, have you ever played a dominator past, say, level 20?
And I see you have 2 high-level controllers in your sig, but let me ask you, are those pre or post-containment trollers? If pre, do you remember what it was like back then playing a sub level 32 troller? I do, and it wasn't fun. Trollers were squishy, did little damage, and their defender secondaries were of little use in taking out bosses they couldn't hold for more than a few seconds at best. It was very hard to solo a troller back then, so you were pretty much relegated to teams till you got your pets.
Now with containment trollers can do significantly more damage (at the expense of control) which makes them a lot more soloable. Add in the defender secondaries and now they rock on teams too. What they lack in control they make up with double damage and buffs/healing/debuffs.
But dominators aren't so lucky. The can't control as well as controllers (whose controls now suck as it is), meaning it's just not feasible to "hold" a boss, let alone an EB/AV/GM. Domination helps alot in getting that inital boss hold to stick, but in reality it just doesn't last long enough to be overly useful. If you slot your hold for holds, then they last longer, but do less damage, making it more difficult to actually defeat the boss you're holding. If you slot damage into your holds then you can't hold them as long and you're going to take more damage over time. It's a lose-lose situation, IMO.
Couple in the fact you don't have defender secondaries, but blaster secondaries (perhaps the most reviled sets in the entire game) that don't do anywhere near blaster-level damage, and it's an all around "meh". I mean, most of those secondary attacks are MELEE attacks -- on a toon with sub-par damage, no defenses, and no buffs/debuffs. And the devs wonder why so few people play them and no one wants them on teams?
IMO I think dominators should have BETTER control ability than controllers to make up for their lacking in everything else. As it is now their control is worse, their damage is perhaps on par (due to their secondaries), but they have none of the benefits of the defender secondaries.
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Do you have any idea what you're talking about? We can't hold a boss? All it takes it 2 applications...thats the same for controllers, its about magnitude. The duration scale difference between controllers and dominators post 20 is nearly insignifigant.
The reason we don't have defender secondaries is .... WE ARE NOT CONTROLLERS. Get over that. We do not have blaster secondaries, we have assualt secondaries which are a combination of blaster primaries, and tank secondaries. There is some overlap in blaster secondaries but not a whole lot (ie fire blaster primary powers (flares, fire blast, fire breath, blazing bolt blaze) that leaves consume, fiery embrace (amazing power) and combustion. Three powers out of 8 gee.) Also since when is /nrg for blasters reviled?
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Ok, without domination, how long can you realistically hold a boss for? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? And that requires constantly spamming of your hold. What about any minions around the boss? If you're focusing on keeping the boss held, how are you going to have the end to defeat anything else that's beating you to a pulp?
Domination is nice, but my experience has been that it rarely comes up more than once per average solo mish. Ok, so you save it for the "boss", only to find out there is another boss in the next room. Then what? Go back to doing everything on the lowest difficulty setting?
But hey, if you like doms exactly the way they are, have fun. To each their own.
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Ok, without domination, how long can you realistically hold a boss for? 5 seconds? 10 seconds?
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What level is your dom that you can only hold a boss for 5-10 seconds? Off the top of my head, 3 Slotted I can hold a +0 boss for about 30 seconds.
Phantom Rose: Ill / Kin / Psi
Soleau: Ice / Icy / Ice / Core: Ice / Fire / Pyre / Wind / Eclipse / Flare / Corona
---------------
Solo Space
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Ok, without domination, how long can you realistically hold a boss for?
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Personally, forever. With Hasten, I can keep a normal EB held without Domination.
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And that requires constantly spamming of your hold. What about any minions around the boss? If you're focusing on keeping the boss held, how are you going to have the end to defeat anything else that's beating you to a pulp?
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Endurance is not an issue, and as a Plant Dom I'll throw out Seeds every now and then and/or Carrion Creepers to keep stragglers busy/dead.
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Domination is nice, but my experience has been that it rarely comes up more than once per average solo mish. Ok, so you save it for the "boss", only to find out there is another boss in the next room. Then what?
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See above.
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But hey, if you like doms exactly the way they are, have fun.
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Way ahead of you.
*boggle* I can hold a boss forever, as long as I have enough endurance. You only need to stack two holds.
The trick is surviving the time in between the first and second hold.
If you don't have the aoe hold/ST hold combo, your first ST hold will aggro the boss on you, and depending on how high level he is, that might get some very unpleasant damage on you - possibly even killing you before you get the second hold in.
Options? One is to let a teammate aggro first, then get the ST holds in. This is not so useful because once they start hitting, the boss is likely to drop dead anyhow. Normally, pre-empting and holding a second boss in place is better.
Another is to use the scenery. Hold, hide, boss runs towards you, hold before he even sees you to shoot.
Or use a knockdown/knockback power in between ST holds. Water spout, bonfire, ice slick all are nifty for this. I hear things like power push, tk thrust work well too.
If you have buffs on you, or aid self, you can possibly just withstand whatever the boss tosses at you. (Can sometimes be a little dangerous but funny on a succubus boss - hold, she confuses you, your second spammed hold hits someone unintended...OOPS, sorry, uhh, didn't really mean it, yea, it's powerboosted, oh you have no bfs, uh, sorry, uh at least it's not a domination powerboosted hold? )
EBs and hold-resistant bosses are trickier, requiring 3 normal holds or two domination holds to lock down. (As long as they don't have the evil purple triangles. Those completely suck for any class reliant on control.)
I'll normally fight EBs in domination and use boss holding tactics on them to lockdown. Only once domination wears and if the EB is still going strong, is where the problem starts. Normally you -can- keep them held by spamming ST holds as often as they recharge. Just barely. Better with hasten. Crummier if they are higher level than you or have hold resistance. This can put serious crimps on the attack chain (and damage done), as you have to factor in the hold every so often, and drains you dry of end fast, which means no hold then.
So either you have a teammate doing damage, or you hope for a maniacal pet like fire imps. Jack Frost in melee may or may not take an EB out. Or you could pop a Shivan, fight fire with fire (or rad, in this case) and pit EB against EB while you just focus on holding.
Endurance management is also important. You can drain dry very fast holding and attack spamming. Eating blues goes without saying.
Sometimes, I take the insane risk of powerboost stacking two holds, (domination charged for EBs) and I REST in front of the mob. As mentioned, it's insane. If you get the timing correct, and have nether regions of steel, you can normally get away with it with bosses, and the odd EB, but a tough one will break out of the hold and give you that sinking feeling of "drat, why was I so lazy?" as he smacks you into next Thursday.
A safer approach is to just stop attacking and maintain the holds. With stamina, that'll regen your end bar slowly. You might kick in the odd blast attack to offset any mob regen, and your last resort (again normally for EBs) building domination again, which will solve all your end and mez and attack problems in a hurry.
A lot of this is tricks for EBs. Bosses aren't usually a terrible challenge unless they've got something special up their sleeve. (Like an uber longlasting stun grenade and you with no bfs on hand.) Just survive the period in between the one-two punch of ST holds, and done.
Oh, and I will normally kill the minion with the boss first. If I'm patient, I'll tp him to me first and whack him, then go for the boss. If I'm not, I'll toss something like water spout or bonfire at them, and lock the boss while whacking the minion around till he dies, then focus on the boss.
On teams where you get multiple bosses per spawn, those are more of a challenge. You can normally lock one guaranteed. Two if you swap ST holds fast with recharge slotted/hasten going or aoe/ST hold combo. Or you could pop domination and go mad crazy holding every single boss in sight, which is fun.
My personal choice without dom up is to go for a one boss lockdown (on the one the brute/stalkers aren't charging at) and hit the lieutenants with holds. I find in a team that most people will zerg rush the bosses anyhow, so I tend to hold back the lts and soft control the minions.
Invictus Est Level 50 Invul/Fire Tank
Malentis Level 50 Ice/Energy/Leviathan Dom (Freedom)
Black Jeremiah Level 50 Fire/Fire/Mu Dom
Sejanna Level 50 Dark/Dark/Elec Def (Virtue)
Arc #119664 - The MiniMech Cometh - Hess TF Mini-Sequel
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If you gain all of that.... AND controller level holds.... That will NEVER happen. NEVER! Think about it, you would be able to hold just as much as a controller... and do 500000x the damage. I'd be pretty mad, even though I have a dominator, that just goes WAY too far.
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Why would you be mad, this makes no sense? We already have poor damage. Controllers have superior hold times and awsome secondaries to fall back on if control fails. What do we have if control fails? Absolutely nothing. This is why we should have superior controls compared to controllers. Our domination power should have just been icing on the cake and not just a power we live and die by. Honestly would it have really hurt anything if we had controller length holds, critical mez and domination? No it would not, it would make us a little more wanted on teams. We would have reason to finally take those area holds since now we can get them to last a bit longer. Now I would say we would have a huge problem if they gave us containment, along with the before mentioned stuff. That would be going over board.
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And you don't have awesome secondaries to fall back on? Dominators can hold an enemy, making it unable to act, THEN use some blaster powers to quickly take the enemy down. BUT NOW you want the same holds as controllers, MORE damage, and still have domination to raise your damage AND controls up even higher! Oh and I have heard that "dominators need more hp" So now you want controls that could challenge a CONTROLLER's controls, damage that could eventually challenge a blaster, AND more HP than both of them. Sounds pretty selfish
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Umm, dude, have you ever played a dominator past, say, level 20?
And I see you have 2 high-level controllers in your sig, but let me ask you, are those pre or post-containment trollers? If pre, do you remember what it was like back then playing a sub level 32 troller? I do, and it wasn't fun. Trollers were squishy, did little damage, and their defender secondaries were of little use in taking out bosses they couldn't hold for more than a few seconds at best. It was very hard to solo a troller back then, so you were pretty much relegated to teams till you got your pets.
Now with containment trollers can do significantly more damage (at the expense of control) which makes them a lot more soloable. Add in the defender secondaries and now they rock on teams too. What they lack in control they make up with double damage and buffs/healing/debuffs.
But dominators aren't so lucky. The can't control as well as controllers (whose controls now suck as it is), meaning it's just not feasible to "hold" a boss, let alone an EB/AV/GM. Domination helps alot in getting that inital boss hold to stick, but in reality it just doesn't last long enough to be overly useful. If you slot your hold for holds, then they last longer, but do less damage, making it more difficult to actually defeat the boss you're holding. If you slot damage into your holds then you can't hold them as long and you're going to take more damage over time. It's a lose-lose situation, IMO.
Couple in the fact you don't have defender secondaries, but blaster secondaries (perhaps the most reviled sets in the entire game) that don't do anywhere near blaster-level damage, and it's an all around "meh". I mean, most of those secondary attacks are MELEE attacks -- on a toon with sub-par damage, no defenses, and no buffs/debuffs. And the devs wonder why so few people play them and no one wants them on teams?
IMO I think dominators should have BETTER control ability than controllers to make up for their lacking in everything else. As it is now their control is worse, their damage is perhaps on par (due to their secondaries), but they have none of the benefits of the defender secondaries.
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QFT
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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If you gain all of that.... AND controller level holds.... That will NEVER happen. NEVER! Think about it, you would be able to hold just as much as a controller... and do 500000x the damage. I'd be pretty mad, even though I have a dominator, that just goes WAY too far.
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Why would you be mad, this makes no sense? We already have poor damage. Controllers have superior hold times and awsome secondaries to fall back on if control fails. What do we have if control fails? Absolutely nothing. This is why we should have superior controls compared to controllers. Our domination power should have just been icing on the cake and not just a power we live and die by. Honestly would it have really hurt anything if we had controller length holds, critical mez and domination? No it would not, it would make us a little more wanted on teams. We would have reason to finally take those area holds since now we can get them to last a bit longer. Now I would say we would have a huge problem if they gave us containment, along with the before mentioned stuff. That would be going over board.
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And you don't have awesome secondaries to fall back on? Dominators can hold an enemy, making it unable to act, THEN use some blaster powers to quickly take the enemy down. BUT NOW you want the same holds as controllers, MORE damage, and still have domination to raise your damage AND controls up even higher! Oh and I have heard that "dominators need more hp" So now you want controls that could challenge a CONTROLLER's controls, damage that could eventually challenge a blaster, AND more HP than both of them. Sounds pretty selfish
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Umm, dude, have you ever played a dominator past, say, level 20?
And I see you have 2 high-level controllers in your sig, but let me ask you, are those pre or post-containment trollers? If pre, do you remember what it was like back then playing a sub level 32 troller? I do, and it wasn't fun. Trollers were squishy, did little damage, and their defender secondaries were of little use in taking out bosses they couldn't hold for more than a few seconds at best. It was very hard to solo a troller back then, so you were pretty much relegated to teams till you got your pets.
Now with containment trollers can do significantly more damage (at the expense of control) which makes them a lot more soloable. Add in the defender secondaries and now they rock on teams too. What they lack in control they make up with double damage and buffs/healing/debuffs.
But dominators aren't so lucky. The can't control as well as controllers (whose controls now suck as it is), meaning it's just not feasible to "hold" a boss, let alone an EB/AV/GM. Domination helps alot in getting that inital boss hold to stick, but in reality it just doesn't last long enough to be overly useful. If you slot your hold for holds, then they last longer, but do less damage, making it more difficult to actually defeat the boss you're holding. If you slot damage into your holds then you can't hold them as long and you're going to take more damage over time. It's a lose-lose situation, IMO.
Couple in the fact you don't have defender secondaries, but blaster secondaries (perhaps the most reviled sets in the entire game) that don't do anywhere near blaster-level damage, and it's an all around "meh". I mean, most of those secondary attacks are MELEE attacks -- on a toon with sub-par damage, no defenses, and no buffs/debuffs. And the devs wonder why so few people play them and no one wants them on teams?
IMO I think dominators should have BETTER control ability than controllers to make up for their lacking in everything else. As it is now their control is worse, their damage is perhaps on par (due to their secondaries), but they have none of the benefits of the defender secondaries.
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QFT
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If you're QFT then I really wonder if you have ever really played a dominator before. You can't hold bosses? This is some weird new symptom
ANYWAY...
enough of the derail. Who is working on the numbers for the recharge discount of am and sb etc to find out how much it would take to stack domination?
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Becaue it isn't working as intended. A power that has a 4 minute recharge AND requires people to attack stuff 50 times (minimum) isn't meant to be perma'ed. That's pretty obvious, right?
We can argue about whether we SHOULD feel like Brutes, kept on our Domination high by solid applications of Corruptor buffs (it's comparable) or not, but I'm pretty sure Domination isn't MEANT to work like that.
So I'm sure it'll get fixed.
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In the end I think it depends on how you view the devs.
<ul type="square">[*]If you think they're morons or mean or anti-fun then a person probably thinks it will be shut down. [*]If you think they're reasonable then the first thing they will probably say is "how is this affecting the game"?[/list]
I just don't see it as any more or less game breaking as what a group of /rad or /kin can do to the game.
In essence I think they "allow" the all-rad or a-kin groups to do sick things because it doesn't happen all that often. I've seen demos where AVs are destroyed in something like 15-20s by such groups, and I'm sure the devs didn't plan it that way, but they let it go because it's not like every other group is built this way.
If tons of people starting doing this, and if it results in normal hard parts of the game becoming insanely easy, then I expect they will look at it. Then again, I don't think the devs are evil morons.
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I don't agree with your categorization. I like the Devs. I defininetly think they have fun in mind when they design these AT and powers.
But I know how a game designer thinks. If he builds a mechanic to work in a certain way, and it doesn't, it's broken.
And let's be honest, this IS broken.
Are you telling me that we should be balanced around having 2 kinetic corruptors and Hasten? If that's the only way we're really going to shine, then something's WRONG with our design. Double Domination isn't meant to "balance" us.
I think you're right that the Developers will say "Huh, I wonder how this affects the game." They've shown before that they'll let errors stay if it benefits players, or through the error, realized something could use a buff (The Controller Slow value was switched with the Defender. They let that stand, and then boosted the Slow values of Defenders, as a good example of this). I think it's likely that they'll decide that we shouldn't keep Double Domination, but might realize that if Double Domination isn't breaking the game, then maybe we could stand to have a solid boost to our powersets. Or maybe they'll find a way to INSTITUTIONALIZE Double Domination (like the bar drops as soon as you press Domination, but if you can fill it again before it fades, you can pop it again)
But I don't think our entire AT should be balanced around having Hasten and two Kinetics Corruptors. Nor do I want it. I don't want to be forced to take a specific Pool power and get two specific teammates with specific powersets just to be able to compete with other ATs.
If Double Domination is genuinely a good thing in that it doesn't break the game in any way (I haven't done any number crunching to see how I feel about it) and gives us the shiney usefulness we need, I still don't think we should keep it. Rather, I think it highlights our weaknesses and the Devs should use this opportunity to re-examine us, rather than just let us keep a rather convoluted advantage.
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If you gain all of that.... AND controller level holds.... That will NEVER happen. NEVER! Think about it, you would be able to hold just as much as a controller... and do 500000x the damage. I'd be pretty mad, even though I have a dominator, that just goes WAY too far.
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Why would you be mad, this makes no sense? We already have poor damage. Controllers have superior hold times and awsome secondaries to fall back on if control fails. What do we have if control fails? Absolutely nothing. This is why we should have superior controls compared to controllers. Our domination power should have just been icing on the cake and not just a power we live and die by. Honestly would it have really hurt anything if we had controller length holds, critical mez and domination? No it would not, it would make us a little more wanted on teams. We would have reason to finally take those area holds since now we can get them to last a bit longer. Now I would say we would have a huge problem if they gave us containment, along with the before mentioned stuff. That would be going over board.
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And you don't have awesome secondaries to fall back on? Dominators can hold an enemy, making it unable to act, THEN use some blaster powers to quickly take the enemy down. BUT NOW you want the same holds as controllers, MORE damage, and still have domination to raise your damage AND controls up even higher! Oh and I have heard that "dominators need more hp" So now you want controls that could challenge a CONTROLLER's controls, damage that could eventually challenge a blaster, AND more HP than both of them. Sounds pretty selfish
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Umm, dude, have you ever played a dominator past, say, level 20?
And I see you have 2 high-level controllers in your sig, but let me ask you, are those pre or post-containment trollers? If pre, do you remember what it was like back then playing a sub level 32 troller? I do, and it wasn't fun. Trollers were squishy, did little damage, and their defender secondaries were of little use in taking out bosses they couldn't hold for more than a few seconds at best. It was very hard to solo a troller back then, so you were pretty much relegated to teams till you got your pets.
Now with containment trollers can do significantly more damage (at the expense of control) which makes them a lot more soloable. Add in the defender secondaries and now they rock on teams too. What they lack in control they make up with double damage and buffs/healing/debuffs.
But dominators aren't so lucky. The can't control as well as controllers (whose controls now suck as it is), meaning it's just not feasible to "hold" a boss, let alone an EB/AV/GM. Domination helps alot in getting that inital boss hold to stick, but in reality it just doesn't last long enough to be overly useful. If you slot your hold for holds, then they last longer, but do less damage, making it more difficult to actually defeat the boss you're holding. If you slot damage into your holds then you can't hold them as long and you're going to take more damage over time. It's a lose-lose situation, IMO.
Couple in the fact you don't have defender secondaries, but blaster secondaries (perhaps the most reviled sets in the entire game) that don't do anywhere near blaster-level damage, and it's an all around "meh". I mean, most of those secondary attacks are MELEE attacks -- on a toon with sub-par damage, no defenses, and no buffs/debuffs. And the devs wonder why so few people play them and no one wants them on teams?
IMO I think dominators should have BETTER control ability than controllers to make up for their lacking in everything else. As it is now their control is worse, their damage is perhaps on par (due to their secondaries), but they have none of the benefits of the defender secondaries.
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QFT
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If you're QFT then I really wonder if you have ever really played a dominator before. You can't hold bosses? This is some weird new symptom
ANYWAY...
enough of the derail. Who is working on the numbers for the recharge discount of am and sb etc to find out how much it would take to stack domination?
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Base recharge of domination: 200 secs
Duration of domination: 90 secs
(200/90) - 1 = 1.22 this is the amount of recharge necessary
hasten: .7 for 120 secs
speed boost: .5 for 120 secs
accelerated metabolism: .3 for 120 secs
Any combination of hasten, SB, and AM that will give you 1.22 will, in theory, accomplish this.
Example: Hasten + SB + AM = 1.5; will give you 10 seconds of "double domination" (200 / (1 + .7 + .5 +.3))
Two SBs and AM would do it (.5 +.5 +.3)
4 AMs would come thaaaat close, but probably be enough (4 x .3)
Get the idea?
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If you gain all of that.... AND controller level holds.... That will NEVER happen. NEVER! Think about it, you would be able to hold just as much as a controller... and do 500000x the damage. I'd be pretty mad, even though I have a dominator, that just goes WAY too far.
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Why would you be mad, this makes no sense? We already have poor damage. Controllers have superior hold times and awsome secondaries to fall back on if control fails. What do we have if control fails? Absolutely nothing. This is why we should have superior controls compared to controllers. Our domination power should have just been icing on the cake and not just a power we live and die by. Honestly would it have really hurt anything if we had controller length holds, critical mez and domination? No it would not, it would make us a little more wanted on teams. We would have reason to finally take those area holds since now we can get them to last a bit longer. Now I would say we would have a huge problem if they gave us containment, along with the before mentioned stuff. That would be going over board.
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And you don't have awesome secondaries to fall back on? Dominators can hold an enemy, making it unable to act, THEN use some blaster powers to quickly take the enemy down. BUT NOW you want the same holds as controllers, MORE damage, and still have domination to raise your damage AND controls up even higher! Oh and I have heard that "dominators need more hp" So now you want controls that could challenge a CONTROLLER's controls, damage that could eventually challenge a blaster, AND more HP than both of them. Sounds pretty selfish
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Umm, dude, have you ever played a dominator past, say, level 20?
And I see you have 2 high-level controllers in your sig, but let me ask you, are those pre or post-containment trollers? If pre, do you remember what it was like back then playing a sub level 32 troller? I do, and it wasn't fun. Trollers were squishy, did little damage, and their defender secondaries were of little use in taking out bosses they couldn't hold for more than a few seconds at best. It was very hard to solo a troller back then, so you were pretty much relegated to teams till you got your pets.
Now with containment trollers can do significantly more damage (at the expense of control) which makes them a lot more soloable. Add in the defender secondaries and now they rock on teams too. What they lack in control they make up with double damage and buffs/healing/debuffs.
But dominators aren't so lucky. The can't control as well as controllers (whose controls now suck as it is), meaning it's just not feasible to "hold" a boss, let alone an EB/AV/GM. Domination helps alot in getting that inital boss hold to stick, but in reality it just doesn't last long enough to be overly useful. If you slot your hold for holds, then they last longer, but do less damage, making it more difficult to actually defeat the boss you're holding. If you slot damage into your holds then you can't hold them as long and you're going to take more damage over time. It's a lose-lose situation, IMO.
Couple in the fact you don't have defender secondaries, but blaster secondaries (perhaps the most reviled sets in the entire game) that don't do anywhere near blaster-level damage, and it's an all around "meh". I mean, most of those secondary attacks are MELEE attacks -- on a toon with sub-par damage, no defenses, and no buffs/debuffs. And the devs wonder why so few people play them and no one wants them on teams?
IMO I think dominators should have BETTER control ability than controllers to make up for their lacking in everything else. As it is now their control is worse, their damage is perhaps on par (due to their secondaries), but they have none of the benefits of the defender secondaries.
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Yes I have played a dominator past 20, and yes my controllers were both pre containment.I suppose this is odd, but I loved controllers even pre containment. They didn't do much damage, and were barely almost un-soloable until lvl 32, but i loved being able to keep everything from doing any damage to my team. Because I was pretty good at it, I found teams all the time. If I didn't like playing a controller pre-containment, I would have NEVER gotten to lvl 50 with Mech. I probably would not have even gotten to 20. But anyway, even without containment, dominators do more damage (without domination) than controllers and can even have better hold durations (with domination on).
I am sorry, but it seems like most dominators want more and more power until they are like gods. But that is not going to happen, realize that and live with it, or continue asking for more power.
And about the "people play them and nobody wants them on teams", I don't know about everyone else, but I LOVE having dominators on my team. They help a ton by making everything unable to attack. (they may not do a lot of damage, but that isn't their primary) And when I play as a dominator, I can usually get an invite to the team, and if i don't, I can effectively solo or create my own team.
Also, bosses can EASILY be held by my dominator for about 20 seconds, which is usually enough time to kill it. And if it isn't enough time, i can easily throw another hold in there.
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If you've ever played defenders or scanned the boards for a while you've see the all-rad and all-kin groups running around who have been doing stuff like this for a while now. I don't see why it's a surprise now. If multiple controllers can hold Hammi I'm not sure why people think the devs will shut down this double domination thing.
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Becaue it isn't working as intended. A power that has a 4 minute recharge AND requires people to attack stuff 50 times (minimum) isn't meant to be perma'ed. That's pretty obvious, right?
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Yeah, and I think that's the distinction that some are missing here. Giving corruptors team-buff abilities like shields is INTENDED. This is how the set was invisioned, designed, and implemented. That's how it's supposed to work. Can you make toons "godly" with a gaggle of */thermal or */sonic corruptors? Sure, but again, this is INTENDED.
Double domination? I'm willing to bet this is something that slipped by and is NOT intended -- meaning you're getting an unplanned, unexpected, unforseen, "unbalanced" advantage that the devs never considered. History has shown us, time and time again, these things get squashed VERY quickly, regardless of their true overall impact, difficulty in achieving, or relative usefulness. Just the fact you're able to use a power in a way never intended is enough to irk them into "fixing" it so it can't be done.
I'm pretty sure the solution to this is having the dom bar drop after domination is activated, thereby not allowing you to cast it again even though it recharges before the first one wears off, or possibly even coding the power so it can't be affected by -recharge buffs. I'm hoping they don't take the easy route and just increase the recharge back to previous levels. That would suck (but unfortunately wouldn't be inconsistent with previous behavior).