[ QUOTE ]
A minor point that's bugging the everloving [censored] out of me.
Stop saying a Dominator + X is better than just X as if it's some inherent boon to being a Dominator. ANYTHING is better with more numbers.
ANYTHING.
A Mastermind who doesn't spec in his pets and a Stalker is better than just a Stalker. [censored] Jenkins and a Stalker is better than just a Stalker. It's not a [censored] selling of Dominators that if you pair them up with another AT, things don't get worse.
Breathe. Two. Three. Four.
Okay, continue.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well seeing as a lot of people are saying the Dom's don't bring any benefit to a team, its a valid point to show examples of where they do.
Being as COX PVP is balanced around teams, showing how a Dom can be successful and bring benefits to a team is probably one of the most important topics for PVP Doms.
If you want to argue around in circles that a Dom will have a hard time soloing a lv50 Broadsword/regen scrapper with laser beam eyes, feel free. Won't do you any good as the PVP design is not balanced around that.
[ QUOTE ]
Being as COX PVP is balanced around teams, showing how a Dom can be successful and bring benefits to a team is probably one of the most important topics for PVP Doms.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is exactly the arguement that I used for getting mezz protection for Doms in PvP. Make 2 lists. One for all the AT/Power Sets that can Hold or Stun. Second All the AT's/Power Sets that can buff a Dom so that we can effectively go into melee range to use the one big advantage that we have (Toggle Dropping). Which is Longer by far?
This also doesn't take into account the abundance of mezz producing minions in the PvE 40+ game. Yet, I get shoot down everytime by others.
I'll support you. I too would like mez resistance. Throw it in our PPP shields to make them even more enticing. That way it can stack with Acrobatics too.
Also, while I am sticking my neck out, how about blaster hp?
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
On a PVE topic. I have been following the AV/GM change thread closely. With the purple triangles of Dom doom already in place I was already having my doubts about our inclusions in the AV/Hero teams that, if COV follows the COH pattern, will be the norm in the 40+ game.
The feeling I am getting is that with the boost in regen rates on the AV/Heros a -regen set like rad is almost a must have to overcome the regen rate.
Now on the hero side this makes a /red troller even more popular. Even if they can't hold a AV they can debuff it and buff their team. On the villian side, if we can't hold an AV to over come its regen that way, we also can't buff/debuff much and if a group of brutes/mms and corruptors can't beat the regen rate a Doms attacks aren't going to add much.
So here is what I would like to test. How many Doms does it take to overcome the triangles and hold an AV/Hero and is it even possible? With Domination up and down. Is there a breaking point at which you need X amount of doms to get close to a perma hold situtation, but will that many Doms make a team not damage heavy enough to take down the held AV.
Any other doms on test willing to give this a try? I have the infernal mish on my 40 dom to test against.
[ QUOTE ]
Any other doms on test willing to give this a try? I have the infernal mish on my 40 dom to test against.
[/ QUOTE ]
Quason has a similar but more lofty goal:
Dominator vs. Purple Triangles Challenge
Also (and this may be a good point for your test), Infernal is a hard Hero to hold even on live. Just keep that in mind.
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With the melees getting their PPP ranged attacks based off of their melee modifiers, it gives me some hope that maybe our AoEs will run off the Controller AoE modifiers. Because right now they all suck.
[/ QUOTE ]
What do you mean by Controller AoE modifiers? Are you talking damage or control? Both our melee and range damage modifiers are already higher than Controllers - there is no distinction for AoE's in terms of damage scale. Controller APP attacks have higher base damage, but that is set on an individual power basis and since we share our PPP AoE/Cone attacks with other AT's, that would break the other AT's as they would be getting the same buff.
I'm interested to know if Dominators are actually considered a melee AT for the purposes of this ranged PPP fix they are bringing in. If they are going by melee modifiers versus ranged modifiers then we clearly have a melee bias (0.75 versus 0.65) - it's not as much of a difference as Brutes and Stalkers but it's still a definite difference. Think I'll PM Castle and ask/plead the case - it certainly wouldn't be breaking us to give us a 15% damage boost to the ranged PPP attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was talking about boosting the AoEs so they're as strong as the Controller APP attacks. And last I checked, Disruptor Blast isn't shared by any AT, nor is Dark Obliteration, nor is Chum Spray. Ball Lightning is the only one and I believe it's modified to Patron Power levels 
[ QUOTE ]
This is exactly the arguement that I used for getting mezz protection for Doms in PvP. Make 2 lists. One for all the AT/Power Sets that can Hold or Stun. Second All the AT's/Power Sets that can buff a Dom so that we can effectively go into melee range to use the one big advantage that we have (Toggle Dropping). Which is Longer by far?
This also doesn't take into account the abundance of mezz producing minions in the PvE 40+ game. Yet, I get shoot down everytime by others.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm generally pretty happy with the state of doms, but I agree that some form of status protection would not be out of line. I was fighting an Inv/EM tank a number of times in RV last night, and kept getting dropped. And no wonder why, the tank had:
Way more HP
Way better defenses
Mez protection
Better damage
Status effects in secondary
Ranged attacks (With knockdown) from EPP.
I don't think it is unreasonable at all to say that, with our lowest damage output for any meleeing class, that we get some form of status protection to enable us to survive for a longer period of time.
[ QUOTE ]
A minor point that's bugging the everloving [censored] out of me.
Stop saying a Dominator + X is better than just X as if it's some inherent boon to being a Dominator. ANYTHING is better with more numbers.
ANYTHING.
A Mastermind who doesn't spec in his pets and a Stalker is better than just a Stalker. [censored] Jenkins and a Stalker is better than just a Stalker. It's not a [censored] selling of Dominators that if you pair them up with another AT, things don't get worse.
Breathe. Two. Three. Four.
Okay, continue.
[/ QUOTE ]
At least from a PvE perspective, this isn't always true. Solo, I get spawns of three and LTs instead of bosses. Bring in one additional person, and I get spawns of 5 and full bosses. If that person can carry his weight, I'm fine. If he can't, I'm in trouble.
In particular, I've noticed Stalkers have a hard time carrying their weight PvE. I'd rather team with pretty much anything BUT a Stalker in PvE, as they do nothing to soak up the aggro, and either they die more quickly than I can protect them, or I do.
If I get a very skilled Stalker, this problem goes away, but I tend to play with poor-to-mediocre Stalkers, and they literally cause me more trouble than going it alone.
(which is why I think Stalkers are very overrated. They're good in PvP, but in PvE, where the ability to splatter 1 out of 5 guys before you need to retreat, they're less stellar...)
PvP, though, nothing changes if you take a teammate, but alot of the Dominator's problem is that a very good portion of his powers are dedicated to wide-radius AoE effects meant to lock down large spawns. This is completely useless against a single, high-powered Scrapper or Blaster.
We, like Masterminds, tend to be at our best when fighting large numbers of weak targets, rather than a single powerful target (though this can change once Domination fires off, and it seems the changes to Domination are making the necessary difference in PvP.)
I continue to hold out for Blaster-level HP.
[ QUOTE ]
If I get a very skilled Stalker, this problem goes away, but I tend to play with poor-to-mediocre Stalkers, and they literally cause me more trouble than going it alone.
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I find that's pretty much true of most AT's but you are correct about Stalkers being more troublesome then most.
I think that's because, even seven months into the life of CoV, many people still think of Stalkers as "Evil Scrappers" or "Evil Blappers." BillZBubba made a good observation on the Dominator boards earlier today:
[ QUOTE ]
Got my grav/ene dom to 8 last night. 3rd time I've built him. When I tried to play him like a scrapper or a blaster, he sucked.
Then I decided to play him like a dominator. Everything changed.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's more true than anything I've seen on the boards in a long time. When people forget about trying to play the CoV AT's like they played CoH AT's, their gameplay improves dramatically.
The whole problem I see here is that the majority of the player base doesn't care about PvP. That is the only rational reason we keep getting side tracked from "Wow, we clearly in every measurable way underperform every other AT by a wide margin in Pvp, and our damage sucks rocks in PvE," to "Lets all have a group therepy session saying why we love our dominator and, gol darned it, I don't care if my total focus only takes off a quarter health from an even con Lt."
I too love my dominator. I would like as well to not get sent to the corner of super-hero parties to hang out with Aqua Man. We have gotten side tracked from testing the cosmetic changes to our PvP survivability in favor of further rationalizing our self worth. I get tired of hearing the dom community cry "But he's a good man officer, I just fell on a door knob. Don't take him away!"
Now in Hero Planner, a suspect source of info if ever there was one (although I do thank the makers for it), the PPP sheilds are showing an almost 50% resist level when slotted fully due to an odd double application of 2 different percentages. One seems to be at around 20% the other at 15% or so. If this is correct, then that may go a long way to changing survivability. Unfortunately I'm sure there is no way in hell it is correct.
Which leaves us back at squish squish squish even in relative terms. And even when we get dom up, 100% damage boost equals.....dum dum dum! just under half the health off a even con Lt. with total focus, the most damaging attack available to the AT. This as we all know translates in PvP terms into a completely ignorable attack, not factoring in the stun.
Again, I think that tanker (at least) level base damage would go a long way to detering attacks on us, as it might actually hurt the attacker. Yes I would love mez protection, who wouldn't? I personally don't feel that is the problem with the AT or the changes. The sheilds will put us on par with blaster defense without the fear one has of engaging a blaster due to their damage output. I can't pop a BF and be immune to that bone msasher or Bitter Ice Blast for 30 secs. Likewise, we should have some honest means of remaining a threat to a toon when they are mez protected. Right now, it just isn't the case.
PinguCJL
@Duskhammer
@Fondu
And by the way Czar, I totally agree with that. We are a unique AT that requires a different mind set to play effectively.
That said, I don't think play style affects the main gist of my above comment (which I know you weren't refering to).
PinguCJL
@Duskhammer
@Fondu
[ QUOTE ]
And by the way Czar, I totally agree with that. We are a unique AT that requires a different mind set to play effectively.
That said, I don't think play style affects the main gist of my above comment (which I know you weren't refering to).
[/ QUOTE ]
What level is your Dominator? Because, sad to say, things do seem to get way better at 40 
But if I had things my way, we wouldn't have to wait till 40 to get this good.
[ QUOTE ]
I think that's because, even seven months into the life of CoV, many people still think of Stalkers as "Evil Scrappers" or "Evil Blappers." BillZBubba made a good observation on the Dominator boards earlier today:
Quote:
Got my grav/ene dom to 8 last night. 3rd time I've built him. When I tried to play him like a scrapper or a blaster, he sucked.
Then I decided to play him like a dominator. Everything changed.
That's more true than anything I've seen on the boards in a long time. When people forget about trying to play the CoV AT's like they played CoH AT's, their gameplay improves dramatically.
[/ QUOTE ]
That thinking is the reason I haven't really played a Brute...people want to think of them as tanks...and after playing a Fire/Fire Tank to 50, then trying out a Fire/Fire Brute...it's definitely not the same. So, instead, I rolled a toon unlike ANY I've played...a Grav/Nrg Dom.
I Lock em down and blow em up...Our damage is set the way it is specifically BECAUSE we can lock them down. It takes a little strategy to KEEP the worst Mobs locked down while beating the others into pulp, but not that much. I've found the only thing I have issues with are the occasional Bosses...and Rikti lieutenants...blasted things have mez resistance so it takes 2 holds to lock them down (or an active Domination Hold)...
PvP..that's a whole other issue. Alone....I suck more than a hungry infant...but in a group, where I let THEM jump in to take the "aggro" then quietly slip in and do my magic, whoosh, down they go
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Got my grav/ene dom to 8 last night. 3rd time I've built him. When I tried to play him like a scrapper or a blaster, he sucked.
Then I decided to play him like a dominator. Everything changed.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's more true than anything I've seen on the boards in a long time. When people forget about trying to play the CoV AT's like they played CoH AT's, their gameplay improves dramatically.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can't help but read that and picture a WASPy republican middle aged father saying "Well I finally found a way to get over the fact that I have a homosexual son... which is to just pretend I have a daughter instead"... The fact of the matter is, it's not what any of us envisioned, it doesn't serve a dynamic role, and we're lowering our standards to accept that. Some people are happy with theirs but it doesn't change the fact that it's still an evolutionary dead-end under current circumstances.
Yeah I played a Grav/Nrg too, to 33... it wasn't hard for me but very few things in this game are anymore. But there's also nothing about it that's naturally inticing. From "Assault" I only kept 3 attacks and powerboost... the rest of my secondary can go [censored] itself b/c the last thing villain teams are lacking is a little "extra damage". It's not like a Coruptor or MM where you can take equal amounts of Primary VS secondary and still contribute to your team equally as much. About 80% of my build is powerpools and control and he STILL has major survivability issues... well not me personally... but I can see exact moments in battles where many people would be in perma debt when expected to take on the hordes I'm expected to in larger teams with a Dom. Chainholding everything and only taking on that which you can keep chain-held might work, but it's never been FUN to a majority of players... we've already gone through this with Controllers .
It took over year too and some people seem to conveniently forget it happened whenever their dominators are the focus of discussion, but it happened all the same... Suddenly, fewer Tankers and Scrappers were being rolled, and the controller population grew until it was on equal footing with everyone else once they were finally given real damage in early game too. Nevermind that people like me and Ishtar already had guides and lots of positive encouragement (prior the big change) showing that controllers could also be damage-dealers before getting Pets by taking the right powers. ...No, the big splash was made when people finally saw for themselves a well-rounded AT that wasn't shortsheeted(underpowered) on any of the essentials required to do a majority of the tasks this game called for.
But here we are again, back at square one spending more time talking over the best method of "acceptance" than over what still needs to be changed. ...Metering out the things we can do with them despite the fact that most teams would much rather have a skilled player supporting their team with a Brute, Corruptor or MM. Well snap out of it... there's no guess work involved here and this conundrum has already been answered and proven.
After alot of the discussion, I am getting on board with the increase hp to blaster levels. I would also like the tank level damage, but I don't think that is as important.
Now here is a crazy idea, what if we got some sort of containment like love where the damage is doubled only from our secondary, when applied to a held target? Maybe only during domination?
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
The main benefit to Doms in team PvP (to me) is Domination being able to hold through toggles and neutralize tough to chew targets like Scrappers and Tanks. This is why the devs made it easier to build Domination up in PvP (despite some Assault secondaries being able to do it faster/easier than others).
Doms aren't about big frontloaded attacks, but multiple quick attacks. Unfortunately some of the secondaries aren't built around this, and players rarely build their characters around a fast attack chain concept.
With my mind/fire dom (who is now 34), I can hit domination 3-4 times a mission in PvE using an attack chain of Dom, Fire Blast, Mezmerize, then Levitate. This also happens to do impressive damage with dom and fiery embrace combined. Ice Doms on test RV, if they are in a good team, report having near-perma domination with their quick ice assault attack chain. Once Doms find their role in PvP teams as toggle droppers for gang-up attacks, they will be highly sought after and also highly targeted.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's more true than anything I've seen on the boards in a long time. When people forget about trying to play the CoV AT's like they played CoH AT's, their gameplay improves dramatically.
[/ QUOTE ]
The fact of the matter is, it's not what any of us envisioned, it doesn't serve a dynamic role, and we're lowering our standards to accept that. Some people are happy with theirs but it doesn't change the fact that it's still an evolutionary dead-end under current circumstances.
[/ QUOTE ]
Who is "any of us"?
I never played CoH before picking up CoV.
My dominator does what I expected him to do.
[ QUOTE ]
It took over year too and some people seem to conveniently forget it happened whenever their dominators are the focus of discussion, but it happened all the same... Suddenly, fewer Tankers and Scrappers were being rolled, and the controller population grew until it was on equal footing with everyone else once they were finally given real damage in early game too. Nevermind that people like me and Ishtar already had guides and lots of positive encouragement (prior the big change) showing that controllers could also be damage-dealers before getting Pets by taking the right powers. ...No, the big splash was made when people finally saw for themselves a well-rounded AT that wasn't shortsheeted(underpowered) on any of the essentials required to do a majority of the tasks this game called for.
[/ QUOTE ]
IMO, that's the problem with your comparison. Pretty much every *other* AT is "shortsheeted" somewhere.
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
I agree with your observations on Controllers. What I don't agree with is that Controllers are in a "good place". Are they fun to play? without question. Are more people playing them? certainly. All this sounds good, Controllers went from being unpopular to being very popular because of some changes. The problem is that devs had to go too far to get there. Now, before the flames start spouting, I'm not advocating a change to Controllers nor am I saying they are grossly overpowered. What I am saying is that they are in general somewhat overpowered and with some power combinations very overpowered. Holding up Controllers as a good example of what should be done to Doms will get more people playing the AT. People like to be a the top of the heap, but that doesn't mean that is what is best for the game. Controllers are the most effective hero AT on the hero side for team v team PvP and once they get into their APP's they can also solo in PvP quite effectively. Of course people like them, who wouldn't? (besides people who play Defenders that is)
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
[ QUOTE ]
It took over year too and some people seem to conveniently forget it happened whenever their dominators are the focus of discussion, but it happened all the same... Suddenly, fewer Tankers and Scrappers were being rolled, and the controller population grew until it was on equal footing with everyone else once they were finally given real damage in early game too. Nevermind that people like me and Ishtar already had guides and lots of positive encouragement (prior the big change) showing that controllers could also be damage-dealers before getting Pets by taking the right powers. ...No, the big splash was made when people finally saw for themselves a well-rounded AT that wasn't shortsheeted(underpowered) on any of the essentials required to do a majority of the tasks this game called for.
[/ QUOTE ]
I dont think this will happen to doms without some earth shattering changes. I do not even think it would work if they had earth and illusion dominators now. The problem with doms is it takes forever to solo unless you have fire as your secondary. For me the first 12 levels are a nightmare with my doms. Only when I get DO's my doms become somewhat playable. To me there is no reason why doms should not have controller level holds and tanker level damage. Until these 2 aspects get fixed fully doms will never be popular.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
Controllers are the most effective hero AT on the hero side for team v team PvP and once they get into their APP's they can also solo in PvP quite effectively. Of course people like them, who wouldn't? (besides people who play Defenders that is)
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, you'll remember I commented that */*/Psi controllers become like tank-mages in high level PvP in that thread about Tac's Stalker... But the Changes to Controllers have absolutely nothing to do with that.. infact the I-5 changes litterally nerfed the high level Uber-build controllers.... especially Fire/Kins and now Ill/Rad with the Schedule change to -ACC enhancers and the stealth nerf to E.F. No, I'm talking about Early and Mid game here... that's when people attempt to play Doms and become frustrated with their unjustified weaknesses...and then transfer that frustration into apathy towards doms when recruiting one for a team.
I'm under no dellusions that It's no accident either, they truned out this way b/c the devs were more worried about continuing instances of the same over-powered controllers/builds appearing in CoV than any concerns about ending up with a gimpish AT.
But it's no excuse, and going into Issue-8 here will be the prime time to unify our demmands for real changes that make the AT popular, and less reliance on Domination as a crutch.
[ QUOTE ]
But it's no excuse, and going into Issue-8 here will be the prime time to unify our demmands for real changes that make the AT popular, and less reliance on Domination as a crutch.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bah. Again with this "crutch" nonsense.
Consider a stalker without assassination or a brute without fury, and tell me which AT relies on an inherent as a "crutch".
... or how about a controller without containment?
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
all 3 of those inherents can work on every attack though
domination is situational
[ QUOTE ]
all 3 of those inherents can work on every attack though
domination is situational
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless you're fighting in really peculiar circumstances, Assassination definitely can't benefit every attack you make.
[ QUOTE ]
With the melees getting their PPP ranged attacks based off of their melee modifiers, it gives me some hope that maybe our AoEs will run off the Controller AoE modifiers. Because right now they all suck.
[/ QUOTE ]
What do you mean by Controller AoE modifiers? Are you talking damage or control? Both our melee and range damage modifiers are already higher than Controllers - there is no distinction for AoE's in terms of damage scale. Controller APP attacks have higher base damage, but that is set on an individual power basis and since we share our PPP AoE/Cone attacks with other AT's, that would break the other AT's as they would be getting the same buff.
I'm interested to know if Dominators are actually considered a melee AT for the purposes of this ranged PPP fix they are bringing in. If they are going by melee modifiers versus ranged modifiers then we clearly have a melee bias (0.75 versus 0.65) - it's not as much of a difference as Brutes and Stalkers but it's still a definite difference. Think I'll PM Castle and ask/plead the case - it certainly wouldn't be breaking us to give us a 15% damage boost to the ranged PPP attacks.