Aid self getting nerfed?
By
artphobia,
Posted on: 2006-04-15 19:23 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I thought that Plutonic was "Of or pertaining to Mickey Mouse's dog."
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Nope, not changed.
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/shameless plug
So, you're buffing alkaloid, right? 
It does have good range and isn't interuptable, but the animation time is long, the heal is weak, and the endurance drain is large.
*Laughs at another item being thrown into Castle's inbox*
_Castle_ said he wanted it nerfed but no pending nerfs were occuring for it.
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I thought that Plutonic was "Of or pertaining to Mickey Mouse's dog."
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yep, that's what the dictionary in my world says too.
(more on-topic: i refuse to look up 'self-fulfilling prophesy')
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Nope, not changed.
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Thanks, Castle. I love it when you do that -- just drop into a thread and squelch unfounded rumours.
. . . or drop hints . . . .
So, now it is safe to respec my Tank into Aid Self? Good!
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Thanks, Castle. I love it when you do that -- just drop into a thread and squelch unfounded rumours.
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Except they weren't unfounded, were they...
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
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I based what I said off of an old post by Castle where he said he felt Aid Self healed too much for it's recharge, and bieng a pool power, and said he'd 'look into it.' And I've been around for a while, and immidiately saw 'nerf.'
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WHY would he ever have a reason to say that? Y'know it's not just Scrappers and Stalkers that use this power, a number of Defenders, Controllers, and Dominators especially have to rely on it for not just healing but stun resist too. So many pure support builds rely on it, Even my Ice-Tank. Shoot he'd never a made it to 30 if he wasn't seeing big numbers when he used Aid-Self. Ask anyone, sets that sacrifice a self heal, don't get back near as much utility and survivability. This shouldn't even be a matter of discussion....
Why don't you ask him?
Plenty of others did. 
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
Mmm. I'd really rather see an AT specific modifier applied to heal self. Except they need to be the reverse of the usual for this kind of thing, stronger for melee sets and weaker for casters.
Either that, or it needs to no longer be affected by powerboost. If you think about it, the ATs Aid Self will not be nerfed to help get no use from power boost anyways.
Here's a few problems I see with Heal Self atm:
1) Powerboosted Heals for blasters. Yep. Wasn't enough they have medium HP, unresistable damage, a strong synergy for suppressionless movement, and are retaining at least some form of detoggling, let's give them resists to all common melee toons damage and then let them have an 80% self heal every once in awhile, in addition to FoN. Oh...no...PFF too.
Cmon...you mean to tell me this was really intended? A heavy ranged damage AT should NOT be healing themselves that well, bottom line, but ESPECIALLY not when you guys have already caved and given them resists and more HP. Gimme a break.
Tank mage, anyone?
Frankly, I think someone should look into powerboosting the self heal on Rads heal as well...it's quite effective atm as well, and rather spammable.
2) Too strong a synergy on many sets, Hasten + Stamina + defenses or phase power make Aid Self very good. In pvp, only toggle debuffs will really interfere with the use of this power, the interupt is avoidable.
3) Obviously benefits all ranged classes more than melee classes. Why? Ranged classes have range...ie..less damage...ie...less incoming attacks, ie, less interupt = more chance to use. We can't gale/hold/phase/PFF/duck around a corner/cage them or w/e else casters can do to get breathing room. We're naturally in the thick of it, taking damage the whole time. The res based sets with no self heal get kinda screwed here too...without defenses they're much more likely to be interupted, even with 3x redux slotting.
I suppose you could remove the interupt for melee toons, and that way Aid Self would be mutually annoying to everyone, and then everyone would ask for the damned thing to get some more balanced attention.
But, let's be real here...the Devs haven't said "there's nothing wrong with Aid Self", they've said, "gee, we're not smart or motivated enough to figure out how to deal with it, so we've decided to just let you deal with it. We'll also be dispensing another stealth fire or regen nerf in i7, we haven't decided which...frankly, we just flip a coin."
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Nope, not changed.
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I think I love you.
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But what am I so afraid of?
@artphobia
To the best dev team ever: I enjoyed meeting you all at the Summits and best of luck in all your future endeavors.
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Dev post.
Without a dev post it's just a rumor... 
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Worse - it's a player's speculation, drawn from an inference that the player took from somethng he read - regarding something he is afraid of. It's not *even* a rumor - until he started posting it as near Fact.
A shining example of self-created player Hysteria.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
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Nope, not changed.
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I think I love you.
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I hope that's plutonic.
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plutonic
Of deep igneous or magmatic origin: plutonic rocks.
...sooo, an Igneous sort of love, huh? 
(you meant "platonic" BTW, but thanks for the laugh)
Tam Lyn Carter, Ialuine, Propitious Puma, Seraf Berylwing, Snowsprite, Damian Newmoon
Chibi Dark Tam, Mr. MacStabbity, Turlin, Frostsprite
And many many more across all servers.
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Dev post.
Without a dev post it's just a rumor...
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Worse - it's a player's speculation, drawn from an inference that the player took from somethng he read - regarding something he is afraid of. It's not *even* a rumor - until he started posting it as near Fact.
A shining example of self-created player Hysteria.
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Unfortunately, this is not self created at all. As posted before, _Castle_ WANTS to nerf it. He may state the truth, that the power has not been changed as of his posting, but that does not changes he wants to nerf the power.
Unless you've learned to read Castle's mind, I think you need to stop waving that post as a banner. A lot of discussion has happened on the forums, about that power and about the pros and cons it has. Castle said that then. He is not carved in stone, and he could have changed his mind. It's worth pointing out that he originally did not want the power nerfed and apparently changed his mind when its recharge was pointed out to him.
And as he pointed out, he isn't changing it. I infer that the change he would liked to have made would have had negative ramifications for various uses of the power outside those Castle was looking at. Either that or there is a direct conflict of balance opinion between Castle and someone further up the chain.
In either case, his stated wish to change the power at that time is not, in my opinion, some sort of battle standard to be waved to incite the masses.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Sure. I think, compared to many other self heals, Aid Self is over-powered. Mainly, this is due to how Interrupt powers work, and a scale that is slightly too high, so it would not be an easy change to make. It would also be very unpopular, and, in the end, it isn't strictly necessary. So, it stays as is.
Of course, that means every AT that has a self heal can now complain that it isn't as effective as Aid Self, and what are they getting to make this fair? Not much, I'm afraid. The only thing I can really say is that taking Aid Self in addition to their normal Self Heal will increase their survivability.
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Aid Self is over-powered.
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ZOMG!
Seriously, though: isn't this all just a merry-go-round at this point? Aren't you (the Dev team) just letting Aid Self fill in the cracks that have appeared in game? Wouldn't it be better to actually get in there and address these sorts of issues so that you can change Aid Self and at the same time point and say, "but look at the changes we made to survivability overall!" when you do it?
Is it really fair that an SR Scrapper with Aid Self is about as effective as a Fire Tank that doesn't stray from their primary? Doesn't Aid Self on a Brute make a mockery of the Brute vs. Tank comparison?
Maybe you can't reply candidly in this venue, but this does seem like a case where everyone's trying very hard not to point out the pink elephant in the room.
*edit*
You're going to tell me to go smash something again, aren't you? 
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Sure. I think, compared to many other self heals, Aid Self is over-powered. Mainly, this is due to how Interrupt powers work, and a scale that is slightly too high, so it would not be an easy change to make. It would also be very unpopular, and, in the end, it isn't strictly necessary. So, it stays as is.
Of course, that means every AT that has a self heal can now complain that it isn't as effective as Aid Self, and what are they getting to make this fair? Not much, I'm afraid. The only thing I can really say is that taking Aid Self in addition to their normal Self Heal will increase their survivability.
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That's why I always felt guilty about taking Aid Self, back before everyone knew how awesome it is. >_>
On one hand, it's not always that easy to just squeeze off in the middle of a fight, though, especially with multiple foes shooting at you and stacking up DoT. Zeus Titans sure don't make it easy on me. And, you DO essentially have to waste a whole power slot to get at your awesome self heal, whereas people with their own self heals don't have to stretch themselves at all.
On the other hand, I do think it was a mistake to shorten the activation time. 2 seconds of interruptability is what really kept the thing from being abusable. You could always push for the old activation time to come back. I've managed to squeeze in a heal in between DoT ticks before.
Arc #41077 - The Men of State
Arc #48845 - Operation: Dirty Snowball
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Sure. I think, compared to many other self heals, Aid Self is over-powered. Mainly, this is due to how Interrupt powers work, and a scale that is slightly too high, so it would not be an easy change to make. It would also be very unpopular, and, in the end, it isn't strictly necessary. So, it stays as is.
Of course, that means every AT that has a self heal can now complain that it isn't as effective as Aid Self, and what are they getting to make this fair? Not much, I'm afraid. The only thing I can really say is that taking Aid Self in addition to their normal Self Heal will increase their survivability.
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Having debated Aid Self with _Castle_ in the past, even offered examples of how this one pool power can potentially give some builds better hit point recovery than many /regen scrappers, I also have to look at it from the other side of the fence.
Primary and secondary powersets have no "minimum investment" required. One could, conceivably, take nothing but a heal from a primary, or the default power + a heal from the secondary. Aid Self, however, still requires first the selection of the Medicine pool (which is one out of your four potential pool options), and second, taking Aid Other or Stimulant before "wanted" power becomes available. Neither of these is a big "sacrifice", but they are still important considerations for anyone creating a character. Will you HAVE room in the build for that pool? If you have the room in the build, do you ALSO have two available power selections at some point to dedicate to it? This isn't always the "no-brainer" that it may seem to be to some. Making this choice may require putting off, or never getting, something else that you may want just as much, such as Air Superiority, or that travel power.
Additionally, Aid Self can often be the ONLY means of damage mitigation avaliable to players. Ask a TA/A defender, or a /SR scrapper, or some other AT or powerset user that has no other significant ability to deal with hit point loss if Aid Self is overpowered. The answer is going to be something along the lines of, "Did you miss your meds today?" For powersets without a self-heal, meager or no defense, and lacking sufficient means of self-protection (hint hint nudge TA/A nudge), Aid Self can easily be the only thing standing between the player and mountains of frustrating debt.
Lastly, I suspect, and this is NOT confirmed, that Aid Self may have an AT modifier attached to it. I HAVE confirmed that Aid Other's heal is AT dependant (a defender heals for significantly more than a scrapper, blaster, or tanker), but I haven't had the opportunity to do enough testing on Aid Self to make a conclusion. IF Aid Self's heal is modified by AT, like Aid Other, the determination of whether it's "overpowered" would be more relative to which ATs benefited the most from it, not how it performs in the best case scenario (such as a blaster hitting Power Boost while running FoN inside PFF).
Is Aid Self overpowered? Maybe, for some builds. But the fact that it's also critical to the basic survivability of some other builds, and that there's more to it than simply adding it to your build (again, pool selection, two power selections, this can be quite a hefty investment in some cases) places it in the realm of "don't touch". And this still doesn't take into account the possibility of an AT modifier (such as if a defender or blaster were healing less than a tanker or scrapper), which could have a significant impact on how the power is viewed.
Well, I have to chime in here that I think the notion of measuring AS as overpowered because of its raw HP/second healed seems overly limited.
I like to compare AS to Reconstruction, which is a 25% heal every 60 seconds. In comparison, AS is a 20% heal every 20 seconds. Normalizing those comes out to:
Recons: 0.416%/sec
AS: 1%/sec
I'll grant that this is a pretty hefty numerical difference. But let's look at it for a second in a more wholistic view.
*) You have to stray into a power pool and take another power. If you're a melee character, you probably have very limited use for this power choice. (Tankers actually make effective healers with Aid Other, however.)
*) Aid Self has a 3+ second activation, where you can do nothing but move (if you reduced the interrupt time)
*) Cannot be activated in motion at all. You have to stop moving to activate it.
*) Cannot be used in most damage fields, other fast DoTs or pulsing effects
Compare that to a Reconstruction
*) In-powerset power with no prerequiste (other than being a certain minimum level)
*) Can be used on the move. The animation does not root the caster
*) < 1 second activation
Do those differences warrant a 2.4 factor in healing/sec? I don't know, but I can see it being better than Reconstruction in that raw metric because of the other differences.
Finally, Aid Self is one of the few self mitigations accessible to some non-armored ATs, such as Blasters. Nerfing it bearing in mind what armored sets can do (which is arguably much more useful to them) would be a hard, hard nerf on these people. And it sounds like that might be one reason they're not doing it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Well, I have to chime in here that I think the notion of measuring AS as overpowered because of its raw HP/second healed seems overly limited.
I like to compare AS to Reconstruction, which is a 25% heal every 60 seconds. In comparison, AS is a 20% heal every 20 seconds. Normalizing those comes out to:
Recons: 0.416%/sec
AS: 1%/sec
I'll grant that this is a pretty hefty numerical difference. But let's look at it for a second in a more wholistic view.
*) You have to stray into a power pool and take another power. If you're a melee character, you probably have very limited use for this power choice. (Tankers actually make effective healers with Aid Other, however.)
*) Aid Self has a 3+ second activation, where you can do nothing but move (if you reduced the interrupt time)
*) Cannot be activated in motion at all. You have to stop moving to activate it.
*) Cannot be used in most damage fields, other fast DoTs or pulsing effects
Compare that to a Reconstruction
*) In-powerset power with no prerequiste (other than being a certain minimum level)
*) Can be used on the move. The animation does not root the caster
*) < 1 second activation
Do those differences warrant a 2.4 factor in healing/sec? I don't know, but I can see it being better than Reconstruction in that raw metric because of the other differences.
Finally, Aid Self is one of the few self mitigations accessible to some non-armored ATs, such as Blasters. Nerfing it bearing in mind what armored sets can do (which is arguably much more useful to them) would be a hard, hard nerf on these people. And it sounds like that might be one reason they're not doing it.
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Yes, this is all true, but recall that you're measuring it against a power from a powerset that's entire defense is based upon healing itself!
It's like saying the Tylenol III you can buy in the store isn't overpowered in comparison to the version a Doctor has access to. Well, sure, but everyone can get it, unlike that specialised version.
Compare the difference between an SR Scrapper with and without. Heck, compare an character with Aid Self to another with SR based solely on how long the two can take incoming damage when not fighting (assuming both have the same HP).
I agree with what UberGuy said.
Too often people think of pool powers only in relation to specific ATs (or even subsets of ATs) rather than all ATs.
Aid Self is not overpowered on my fire blaster that has it. It's a tool that helps him survive and must be used within the limits described above. He has nothing else to fall back on when solo, save for respites, unlike many (but not all) melee characters who may already have a self-heal.
On the other hand, my ice blaster does not use Aid Self because he uses his holds to help mitigate damage in a way that the fire blaster can't.
The system works. Let's leave it as is, please.
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It's like saying the Tylenol III you can buy in the store isn't overpowered in comparison to the version a Doctor has access to. Well, sure, but everyone can get it, unlike that specialised version.
Compare the difference between an SR Scrapper with and without. Heck, compare an character with Aid Self to another with SR based solely on how long the two can take incoming damage when not fighting (assuming both have the same HP).
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Actually, that makes the comparison all the more valid. I did not include anywhere in that analysis that Reconstruction is only a part of /Regen's healing-based mitigation. Had I somehow included Dull Pain or Fast Healing in the analysis then yes, it would be unfair. Comparing Reconstruction and Aid Self as stand-alone powers is completely fair. There is no indication that Reconstruction is somehow godly among self-heal powers simply because it is a component in the Regeneration powerset.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Switching gears here, being that aid self is going to be as is and that other self heals are condsidered below it for balance - how do other self heals compare to each other with aid self taken out of the equation ? Can we expect any "rebalancing" to any of those?
The most well known issue here is that healing flames is considered by players to be subpar when compared to such powers as dull pain( and its variants) and reconstruction.
What is the offical ( or even just your own) stance on the various self heal type powers and their inner balance issues ?
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Aid Self is not overpowered on my fire blaster that has it.
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It depends. If it gives your blaster regeneration comparable to a Scrapper's secondary or a Tanker's primary then yes, one could easily argue it is overpowered -- or more accurately, that the damage mitigation provided by these sets is out of balance compared to Aid Self, and vice-versa.
Of course, then the Tanker/Scrapper could take Aid Self themselves, but if Aid Self improves their performance to the point they are basically forced to take it because not doing so effectively cripples them, or keeps them from performing up to most people's expectations, then that too is a significant problem.
Of course, it all depends on how much extra survivability melee ATs are supposed to have compared to the ranged ATs, which I think is the major question. After GDN and ED, there doesn't seem to be a clear or satisfactory answer to that.
plutonic love is the reason we have winter.at least acording to mytholigy