Aid self getting nerfed?


artphobia

 

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God, that would suck big for several powersets across ATs. That's fixing a fly with a big sledghammer, IMO.

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And I believe that is *exactly* why _Castle_ thinks Aid Self is overpowered.

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The described behavior would break benefits to other interruptable powers for defense sets. Dark/Dark using Moonbeam. Ninja and SR Stalkers using Assissin Strike (or just keeping Placate). My point was that the described solution would be annoying as hell accross multiple ATs, and I am quite certain that +DEF and AS/Placate are very much working as intended.

Any "fix" to Aid Self should not "fix" those other sets. The "fix" I was responding to would.

What you are describing is going to be true so long as Aid Self exists. Aid Self benefits anyone who has defenses or any mitigation already. This is a truism whether the characters have +DEF or not. Aid Self is of great benefit to someone with high DR. It's just not as easy to use reliably.

All that could be changed is that the benefit can be reduced. Past experience shows that such changes tend to make pool powers meaningless across the board. And making yet another pool power have a meaningless benefit is tiresome. Yay, lets make it another Weave! A power that no one in their right mind takes - even the AT that it helps the "most". If the power exists and can be taken, it needs to provide meaningful benefit.

So thanks, but I'm not interested in another Weave.


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Posted

Just to toss in my short comment on this whole topic:

It is hard to consider a power "overpowered" when it is the only heal that can fail to work when you need it.

Stuck in Quicksand by Cot? Better survive until the QS drops (hard for squishies), because Aid Self won't help you there.

Falling after being hit by a -Fly power? Wait to hit the ground and go "ouch", because you can't use it while falling.

Hit hard, low on HPs, and you want to run away, around a corner, while healing so that the last burst of enemy fire doesn't kill you? Out of luck, because you have to stop to use Aid Self.

None of those apply to other self heals. Now, of course, in a "best situation", Aid Self is the strongest self-heal available. But it has both the costs associated with acquiring it (extra power choice, one power pool choice), and the extra disadvantage in that it can fail to work when you need it. And, usually, when you need it THE MOST.

I like heals anytime. But I NEED heals at some times... exactly when Aid Self is hardest to use. When I'm stuck in Quicksand, or in PvP when a Rad has his toggles on me, or when I'm down to 20% health and running for the nearest corner to break LOS. And it's exactly when I need Aid Self the most, that it's the hardest to use.


 

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Yes, yes .. and that post was in reply to? Somoene's speculation. Castle said he would change it if it was up to him, but that he is not going to change it. Feel free to keep waving up one post as your 'proof', but all that is is his opinion of the power. You conveniently leave out the posts where he says he is not changing it.

Enjoy your Speculation, but please - stop trying to pass it off as The Truth.

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As they say where I come from:

There is no worse blind than he who does not want to see.

Enjoy the darkness there, as you like to ignore and twist what castle says on that thread AND this one (you know, that bit where he simply says nerf is not happening because it means changing a bigger thing, not because they really don’t want to?).


 

Posted

That seems to completely ignore the other two things Castle said. That it would be very unpopular and wasn't strictly neccessary.

(Sorry, Castle. You must love having people microanalyze your posts like this. )


Blue
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Posted

OMG! Castle is using a lot of vowels today, that means Aid Self is going to be nerfed two weeks after I7 is released.

DOOOOOOOM!


 

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Castle is an anagram for "As Celt". Because the Celts used broadswords, I am certain that Castle will next be nerfing the Broadsword set.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
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Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
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WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
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Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

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Castle is an anagram for "As Celt". Because the Celts used broadswords, I am certain that Castle will next be nerfing the Broadsword set.

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People in Castles used broadswords too. At least my Lego people did. I think you're on to something.


 

Posted

You tellin me they do will stop nerfs because something may not be popular!!!

Darnit i should had told them how unpopular ED would had been.... oh wait...


 

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Yeah, except they felt that ED was abolutely essential. And in PvP I think it absolutely was. (Which annoys the tar out of me.)

On the other hand, the other thing Castle said ("not strictly neccessary") suggests that they do not feel this way about Aid Self.

Absolutely neccessary > wildly unpopular
Not strictly neccessary < very unpopular

While certainly highly subjective, I don't find those two assertions impossible to accept.

Do I think Aid Self will never change for better balance? No. I do hope that, as a low priority change, it can be rebalanced on the coat tails of some tech change in the game that will allow it to be rebalanced without sucking wind; changed in a way that's not an option now.


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Posted

One of the things I thought when he talked about that was "you know, Recon and especially Healing Flames just kinda suck". I have a fire tank and Healing Flames comes up just too slow to be really useful. I spend a lot of time in battle thinking "cmon, I put three recharges in you, recharge faster!"

Of course I'm also one of those guys who stuck 2 recharges in Aid Self. When I'm taking enough damage that I need healing, I tend to need more healing than HF can provide. Aid Self has a much higher threshold and is more generally useful in that situation.

IMHO, I wouldn't mind if HF and Recon were dropped to 40 second recharges and Aid Self was bumped to a 30 second recharge. That would also put them much more in line with the amount of healing they provide, and the fact that Aid Self is a pool power (although that should be taken up by the fact that Aid Self is interruptable).


 

Posted

Yeah, something like that would be rather nice.


Blue
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Posted

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in it i hear you can even aid self yourself standing in burn. The degree you can lower the interruption of this power is such that many just take 2 interrupt SOs and toss a recharge SO to make an already fast recharging heal even faster.

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I find this very hard to believe. I have it slotted with two interrupts and I cannot use it under the influence of something like and Ice Storm or near a Behemoth running Invincibility. If I can't get it to fire after two or three tries, I give up.

If what you're saying is true then it needs the interrupt time either increased or made less enhancable.

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This morning I was under attack by six freaks with my Ice/Energy Blaster. I never failed to get off Aid Self slotted with two interrupts. I've gotten it off with a DoT on me.

Aid Self allows me to heal approximately 123% of my HP per minute without Power Boost and 165% when I use power boost every time it's up.

My Regen Scrapper can heal at 97% of her HP in one minute with Reconstruction well slotted. My primary regeneration toggle only heals me for 61% of my HP per minute. So two powers that make up my main defenses are beneath this pool power.

I really don't see how that makes any sense at all.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

Posted

Aid self also heals for noticeably more than a fire tanker's healing flames......and recharges in like half the time....or maybe even less.

Makes sense, right?


 

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Aid Self allows me to heal approximately 123% of my HP per minute without Power Boost and 165% when I use power boost every time it's up.

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Honestly, I don't understand the point in mentioning what it can do with PB. That is something that Energy Secondaries and maybe Power Mastery EPP Defenders can take advantage of. (Never met a Defender with Aid Self.)

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My Regen Scrapper can heal at 97% of her HP in one minute with Reconstruction well slotted. My primary regeneration toggle only heals me for 61% of my HP per minute. So two powers that make up my main defenses are beneath this pool power.

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Because they aren't interruptable, do not break your attack chain for 3.3 seconds, and do not require you to be immobile to activate them.

Look, if the problem is that the power's interruptability is not working, I'm all for fixing that. It interrupts for me rather often. Maybe I've been unlucky. I've tried what you describe with an Invulnerability Scrapper and have about 60/40 success/fail rate activating the power under heavy assault. It was usually a mix of slow DoT and multiple melee attacks that I could't time. Melee with one foe? No problem. In the Ice Storm of a Hellfrost? Forget it. With a DE Swarm on my butt? Forget it.

But if it's not working - if the interrupt mechanic is broke, then fix that.

And hey, I'd be ecstatic if they dropped the recharge on reconstruction by 30% or so. I think it takes too damn long to come back.


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Red
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Posted

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Aid self also heals for noticeably more than a fire tanker's healing flames......and recharges in like half the time....or maybe even less.

Makes sense, right?

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We already know that at least Castle thinks that's broken and that Healing Flames is being inspected for improvement.


Blue
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Posted

Wait, you were under the impression that a fire tanker was meant to survive?

Why do you think they gave us Rise of the Phoenix! Because we are MEANT to need it!


 

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Well, there are two possibilities. Castle is lying to us or he isn't...

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No one said he was lying. I was suggesting you placed too much emphasis on balance being the reason it hasn't been nerfed. Like I said ... there are bigger fish to fry (than self-heals).


 

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That's why I always felt guilty about taking Aid Self, back before everyone knew how awesome it is. >_>


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Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as "back before everyone knew how awesome it was".

As a pool power that was under the radar for 5 full Issues, Aid Self was never "awesome". It still isn't "awesome" today.

The effect you are noting is actually "this power was never rebalanced to suck like the Primary/Secondary Defensive powers were".

Really, it should be nerfed. Since Fire Armor isn't going to be overpowered any time soon, all that Aid Self is really accomplishing is a delay in the "day or reckoning" that all the Defese sets so desperately need.

Or to say it more simply; We need to remove the crutches so the sets fall down, go boom, and get improved. Aid Self is a garden-variety crutch.


Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?

 

Posted

Hate to break it to you, GS, but I don't come close to believing that day is coming. Ever.

Over all, our current levels of defense are workable. I have Aid Self on two melee characters; both Invuln, one Scrapper, one Tanker. I may yet change the Tanker over to Tough. My Regen and Dark Armor characters don't have it, and never will. My DA Brute won't have it - he's out of pools. My MA/Regen Stalker... nope.

We don't need Aid Self to survive or function. Is it damn nice to have? You betcha! But nerfing it, or hell, removing it from the game wouldn't cripple my characters.

So I just can't see your logic there. Doesn't flow for me.


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Posted

I'd say healing 125% of your HP every minute is a pretty decent crutch. So maybe the sets won't fall down without it, but they'll sure as hell be doing better with it.

Would you prefer the term "booster seat" or "platform shoes"?


 

Posted

I believe I already said that I agree that Aid Self makes a character more survivable. If it didn't, why on earth would we take it?

Scott was saying that without it our sets would be revealed to be so gimp that the devs would have to boost them. That their true "gimpiness" is being concealed by the benefits of this power.

I disagree. I submitted as evidence the fact that I have characters who lack Aid Self yet do amazing things. Things which which a glance at the game manual would suggest I shouldn't be doing.

It's impossible for Aid Self to both be worth taking and not have it make a character better. It's impossible for any amount of healing worth even having to make more of a difference to someone with mitigation than to someone with none.

I argue that just because I could conceivably stand around and spam Aid Self on myself does not make my Invulnerability Scrapper "more survivable" than my Regen Scrapper, even though my Invul has better +DEF and +DR. Why? Because I argue that while my Invul is standing around animating that power, my Regen is actually fighting. My regen is actually able to deal damage, apply debuffs/buffs, and do other things than just heal. Maybe my Invul could stand around all day and not die. (My practical experience actually tells me he couldn't, but lets say he could.) But he needs to do something else meanwhile. No, he won't actually spend 100% of his time animating Aid Self. But he'll spend roughly 3x as much time doing that than my Regen would spend animating Reconstruction even if Reconstruction and Aid Self had the same recharge times.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
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Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

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Sure. I think, compared to many other self heals, Aid Self is over-powered. Mainly, this is due to how Interrupt powers work, and a scale that is slightly too high, so it would not be an easy change to make. It would also be very unpopular, and, in the end, it isn't strictly necessary. So, it stays as is.
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Of course, that means every AT that has a self heal can now complain that it isn't as effective as Aid Self, and what are they getting to make this fair? Not much, I'm afraid. The only thing I can really say is that taking Aid Self in addition to their normal Self Heal will increase their survivability.

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I wonder when Geko decided that the sets with self heals couldn't be buffed to be at least ON PAR with Aid Self if he remembered this little ditty from ancient times:

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it used to be 20 seconds. I meant to change it to 60 seconds, but accidently made it like 600 or something. That made it 5 times better than the Defender Clear Mind power. Clear mind was 60 seononds, and it is now 90 seconds. Stimulant must not be as good as clear mind.


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Once upon a time with Geko.

Stimulant was adjusted so it didn't step on Clear Mind. It was done in a combo slight nerf to Stimulant and fair buff to Clear Mind. Aid Other and the rez already don't step on their primary and secondary fellows.

Why does Aid Self get the privilege.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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Aid Self allows me to heal approximately 123% of my HP per minute without Power Boost and 165% when I use power boost every time it's up.

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Honestly, I don't understand the point in mentioning what it can do with PB. That is something that Energy Secondaries and maybe Power Mastery EPP Defenders can take advantage of. (Never met a Defender with Aid Self.)

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My Regen Scrapper can heal at 97% of her HP in one minute with Reconstruction well slotted. My primary regeneration toggle only heals me for 61% of my HP per minute. So two powers that make up my main defenses are beneath this pool power.

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Because they aren't interruptable, do not break your attack chain for 3.3 seconds, and do not require you to be immobile to activate them.

Look, if the problem is that the power's interruptability is not working, I'm all for fixing that. It interrupts for me rather often. Maybe I've been unlucky. I've tried what you describe with an Invulnerability Scrapper and have about 60/40 success/fail rate activating the power under heavy assault. It was usually a mix of slow DoT and multiple melee attacks that I could't time. Melee with one foe? No problem. In the Ice Storm of a Hellfrost? Forget it. With a DE Swarm on my butt? Forget it.

But if it's not working - if the interrupt mechanic is broke, then fix that.

And hey, I'd be ecstatic if they dropped the recharge on reconstruction by 30% or so. I think it takes too damn long to come back.

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Yeah, unfortunately, one of the most unbalance builds have access to power boost. Ever fight an Ice/EM with Power boost and Aid self? 700+ hp heals at lvl 50.


 

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Aid Self allows me to heal approximately 123% of my HP per minute without Power Boost and 165% when I use power boost every time it's up.

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Honestly, I don't understand the point in mentioning what it can do with PB. That is something that Energy Secondaries and maybe Power Mastery EPP Defenders can take advantage of. (Never met a Defender with Aid Self.)

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My Regen Scrapper can heal at 97% of her HP in one minute with Reconstruction well slotted. My primary regeneration toggle only heals me for 61% of my HP per minute. So two powers that make up my main defenses are beneath this pool power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they aren't interruptable, do not break your attack chain for 3.3 seconds, and do not require you to be immobile to activate them.

Look, if the problem is that the power's interruptability is not working, I'm all for fixing that. It interrupts for me rather often. Maybe I've been unlucky. I've tried what you describe with an Invulnerability Scrapper and have about 60/40 success/fail rate activating the power under heavy assault. It was usually a mix of slow DoT and multiple melee attacks that I could't time. Melee with one foe? No problem. In the Ice Storm of a Hellfrost? Forget it. With a DE Swarm on my butt? Forget it.

But if it's not working - if the interrupt mechanic is broke, then fix that.

And hey, I'd be ecstatic if they dropped the recharge on reconstruction by 30% or so. I think it takes too damn long to come back.

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Yeah, unfortunately, one of the most unbalance builds have access to power boost. Ever fight an Ice/EM with Power boost and Aid self? 700+ hp heals at lvl 50.

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No but I got one. I've seen what a "regen" Blaster can do.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.