Aid self getting nerfed?
By
artphobia,
Posted on: 2006-04-15 19:23 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Aid Self is not overpowered on my fire blaster that has it.
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It depends. If it gives your blaster regeneration comparable to a Scrapper's secondary or a Tanker's primary then yes, one could easily argue it is overpowered -- or more accurately, that the damage mitigation provided by these sets is out of balance compared to Aid Self, and vice-versa.
Of course, then the Tanker/Scrapper could take Aid Self themselves, but if Aid Self improves their performance to the point they are basically forced to take it because not doing so effectively cripples them, or keeps them from performing up to most people's expectations, then that too is a significant problem.
Of course, it all depends on how much extra survivability melee ATs are supposed to have compared to the ranged ATs, which I think is the major question. After GDN and ED, there doesn't seem to be a clear or satisfactory answer to that.
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Jackspot!
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Aid Self is not overpowered on my fire blaster that has it.
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It depends. If it gives your blaster regeneration comparable to a Scrapper's secondary or a Tanker's primary then yes, one could easily argue it is overpowered -- or more accurately, that the damage mitigation provided by these sets is out of balance compared to Aid Self, and vice-versa.
Of course, then the Tanker/Scrapper could take Aid Self themselves, but if Aid Self improves their performance to the point they are basically forced to take it because not doing so effectively cripples them, or keeps them from performing up to most people's expectations, then that too is a significant problem.
Of course, it all depends on how much extra survivability melee ATs are supposed to have compared to the ranged ATs, which I think is the major question. After GDN and ED, there doesn't seem to be a clear or satisfactory answer to that.
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Jackspot!
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/signed, all my sorta crippled melee AT's that are forced to run when they used to stand tall and proud ... 
Basically too many 50's to count, but I'm generally a brute/scrapper/tank kind of guy.
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Sure. I think, compared to many other self heals, Aid Self is over-powered. Mainly, this is due to how Interrupt powers work, and a scale that is slightly too high, so it would not be an easy change to make. It would also be very unpopular, and, in the end, it isn't strictly necessary. So, it stays as is.
Of course, that means every AT that has a self heal can now complain that it isn't as effective as Aid Self, and what are they getting to make this fair? Not much, I'm afraid. The only thing I can really say is that taking Aid Self in addition to their normal Self Heal will increase their survivability.
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The problem with Aid Self is that it is overpowered for *some* ATs/builds and almost useless to other ATs/builds. Builds using ATs which have inherently high defense and/or include a lot of defense pools (Stealth/CJ/Weave/Hover) have a distinct advantage in Aid Self usage over builds that do not.
I think Aid Self would be universally better if the interruptability were removed entirely and the amount of aid nerfed to a somewhat smaller percentage than it is currently, or perhaps even a fixed number of HP per level of the caster.
You could even make it equivalent to Reconstruction in every respect except that you need to take medicine power pool and another power beforehand. What's really wrong with that?
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I think Aid Self would be universally better if the interruptability were removed entirely and the amount of aid nerfed to a somewhat smaller percentage than it is currently, or perhaps even a fixed number of HP per level of the caster.
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Um, nerfing it would make it universally better?
Making it fixed W.R.T. caster level and ignoring AT HPs would make it horribly gimp for some ATs and quite nice for others. Besides, they can already achieve this with AT modifiers.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Of course, it all depends on how much extra survivability melee ATs are supposed to have compared to the ranged ATs, which I think is the major question. After GDN and ED, there doesn't seem to be a clear or satisfactory answer to that.
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To stray away from the discussion for a moment...
No AT should be "more survivable" in its native element than other ATs in their native element, with the obvious exception of tanks. That is to say, if the developers make a decision to make scrappers "more survivable" in melee than blasters at range, they're basically going to sign a death warrant for blasters. Or controllers, or defenders, or Kheldians who play at range. Similarly, assigning "higher survivability" to any ranged AT over melee ATs is going to result in an end to melee ATs.
Survivability absolutely must be equivilant across the board, and Aid Self is one of the tools that some ATs require or use to achieve that necessity. And if Aid Self makes the game "too easy" for some builds or ATs, it's a sign of a problem with the ATs and/or powers in use, not Aid Self. "Balancing" Aid Self not only will not fix the problem, it will exacerbate the problem.
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The problem with Aid Self is that it is overpowered for *some* ATs/builds and almost useless to other ATs/builds. Builds using ATs which have inherently high defense and/or include a lot of defense pools (Stealth/CJ/Weave/Hover) have a distinct advantage in Aid Self usage over builds that do not.
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With 3 interrups in it i hear you can even aid self yourself standing in burn. The degree you can lower the interruption of this power is such that many just take 2 interrupt SOs and toss a recharge SO to make an already fast recharging heal even faster.
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Finally, Aid Self is one of the few self mitigations accessible to some non-armored ATs, such as Blasters. Nerfing it bearing in mind what armored sets can do (which is arguably much more useful to them) would be a hard, hard nerf on these people. And it sounds like that might be one reason they're not doing it.
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Don't kid yourself. The importance of balance means less & less as each issue nears release. Now if Aid Self could be directly tied to herding or PLing, by God, watch those mountains move! The bottom line is they're not nerfing it yet because it would take too long and there are bigger fish to fry.
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The bottom line is they're not nerfing it yet because it would take too long and there are bigger fish to fry.
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Yip, just wait till that fish is all fried and they start getting hungry. This little catfish will be hitting the frying pan in no time.
(that is unless some one gets to exploits it in pvp, then the nerf will probably take a weekend)
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in it i hear you can even aid self yourself standing in burn. The degree you can lower the interruption of this power is such that many just take 2 interrupt SOs and toss a recharge SO to make an already fast recharging heal even faster.
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I find this very hard to believe. I have it slotted with two interrupts and I cannot use it under the influence of something like and Ice Storm or near a Behemoth running Invincibility. If I can't get it to fire after two or three tries, I give up.
If what you're saying is true then it needs the interrupt time either increased or made less enhancable.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Don't kid yourself. The importance of balance means less & less as each issue nears release. Now if Aid Self could be directly tied to herding or PLing, by God, watch those mountains move! The bottom line is they're not nerfing it yet because it would take too long and there are bigger fish to fry.
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Well, there are two possibilities. Castle is lying to us or he isn't. I am, frankly, one of the more jaded people on the forums when it comes to the nerfs we've seen in the past. I do not, however, believe that they would flat out lie to us.
Does that mean that, in the future, some new tech or other change to balance might allow them to change this power, and that they might then? Yeah, I buy that. Do I think that, when crunch month is over, they'll just nerf it outright? No, based on what Castle said here, I don't. They could have done that already - that's what he said.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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No AT should be "more survivable" in its native element than other ATs in their native element, with the obvious exception of tanks.
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It depends on whether by "survivable" you mean overall survivability including "dead mobs do no damage", or merely damage mitigation (which is what I was talking about).
Scrappers have a defensive secondary. Blasters' is offensive. Scrappers' damage mitigation should be higher, as Blasters are expected to derive "overall survivability" from range and offense.
If Blasters are deriving overall survivability from damage mitigation (ie. Aid Self) and that gives them mitigation comparable to Scrappers, or greater overall survivability, then there is a problem. (Whether range is an effective defense is possibly another, different but related, problem...)
It is also untrue that "overall survivability" needs be equal for all individual ATs (somehow excluding Tankers), as there is certainly a tradeoff that can be made between risk (ie. survivability) and reward (damage/speed of execution). Whether the balance is correct pretty much amounts to asking "is the survivability of Melee vs. Ranged where it should be".
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Well, there are two possibilities. Castle is lying to us or he isn't. I am, frankly, one of the more jaded people on the forums when it comes to the nerfs we've seen in the past. I do not, however, believe that they would flat out lie to us.
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Things just aren't that simple. If Castle were in actual control of CoH balancing, I might be inclined to take his word as absolute. Since he is part of what I have gathered is a bureaucratic decisionmaking process, I don't really think his honesty even really matters.
That is to say: I don't doubt Castle's honesty, just his ability to predict what's going to happen.
~Gabriel
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I agree with what UberGuy said.
Too often people think of pool powers only in relation to specific ATs (or even subsets of ATs) rather than all ATs.
Aid Self is not overpowered on my fire blaster that has it. It's a tool that helps him survive and must be used within the limits described above. He has nothing else to fall back on when solo, save for respites, unlike many (but not all) melee characters who may already have a self-heal.
On the other hand, my ice blaster does not use Aid Self because he uses his holds to help mitigate damage in a way that the fire blaster can't.
The system works. Let's leave it as is, please. 
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Now give your Ice Blaster Aid Self. Is that now balanced in comparison to your Fire Blaster?
Shouldn't the Fire Blaster be given some benefit such that taking Aid Self isn't required to bring him on par with the Ice Blaster?
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I really do see what you are getting at but I still have my doubts.
I woudln't think the ice blaster is that simple. What 2 powers does the Ice Blaster give up to take the healing path? 1 of those holds that mitigate damage? Or a nice damage attack that mitigate damage by making the damage dealing bad guy go away faster? Ice patch.. hard to give that damage mitigation up I would thinkThe Ice blaster may want 4 other power pools to pull of their design making Med hard to fit in.
I do use it on my Invul Brute (which makes my opinion biased I'm sure) for in-between fight heals and it is very nice for that while soloing. I took it to fill some major defense holes that my invlul tank had post I5-ish, post ED, etc. etc.
While in team.. I hardly touch it because I'm normally interrupted. It seems to be a feast or famine power to me. It certainly is a power I consider "a good power". I really hate seeing good power smashed into bad powers in the name of balance. Balance always seems to tip it more towards the side of too much just so they don't have to nerf again.
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Aid Self is over-powered.
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ZOMG!
Seriously, though: isn't this all just a merry-go-round at this point? Aren't you (the Dev team) just letting Aid Self fill in the cracks that have appeared in game? Wouldn't it be better to actually get in there and address these sorts of issues so that you can change Aid Self and at the same time point and say, "but look at the changes we made to survivability overall!" when you do it?
Is it really fair that an SR Scrapper with Aid Self is about as effective as a Fire Tank that doesn't stray from their primary? Doesn't Aid Self on a Brute make a mockery of the Brute vs. Tank comparison?
Maybe you can't reply candidly in this venue, but this does seem like a case where everyone's trying very hard not to point out the pink elephant in the room.
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You're going to tell me to go smash something again, aren't you?
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QFT, QFE
Eloquently put.
At least _Castle_ doesnt just field the softball topics and sit back and make cute little quips in general chat.
More than I can say for many other dev's.
This power being even remotely close to the caliber of melee powers in effectiveness is a joke, and just further illustrates the sub-mediocre level that melee defenses have been tuned to - on top of being reduced to a trivial concern in PvP for the opposition to overcome.
It also illustrates the continued divorce from comic-book heroics and influence in the game as a whole and in relation to AT's across the board.
What comic book character constantly juices a med-pack in every encounter, between 2-3 attacks to hang with his opponents?
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Aid Self is over-powered.
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ZOMG!
Seriously, though: isn't this all just a merry-go-round at this point? Aren't you (the Dev team) just letting Aid Self fill in the cracks that have appeared in game? Wouldn't it be better to actually get in there and address these sorts of issues so that you can change Aid Self and at the same time point and say, "but look at the changes we made to survivability overall!" when you do it?
Is it really fair that an SR Scrapper with Aid Self is about as effective as a Fire Tank that doesn't stray from their primary? Doesn't Aid Self on a Brute make a mockery of the Brute vs. Tank comparison?
Maybe you can't reply candidly in this venue, but this does seem like a case where everyone's trying very hard not to point out the pink elephant in the room.
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You're going to tell me to go smash something again, aren't you?
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QFT, QFE
Eloquently put.
At least _Castle_ doesnt just field the softball topics and sit back and make cute little quips in general chat.
More than I can say for many other dev's.
This power being even remotely close to the caliber of melee powers in effectiveness is a joke, and just further illustrates the sub-mediocre level that melee defenses have been tuned to - on top of being reduced to a trivial concern in PvP for the opposition to overcome.
It also illustrates the continued divorce from comic-book heroics and influence in the game as a whole and in relation to AT's across the board.
What comic book character constantly juices a med-pack in every encounter, between 2-3 attacks to hang with his opponents?
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None: There is too much healing in CoX. I had a discussion about this a few weeks ago. Although, some characters have healing powers- mostly wizards or cosmically do 'anything' types, it is rare to open a comic and see a character healing another while the other fights against hordes of mobs.
Comic book battles are 1 of 2 types: either hordes of minions AIM, Hydra, Kingpin etc or against other villian groups.
What CoX has made is a modification to the classic 'dungeon crawl' by adding defenders into the game at all or at least at the numbers they currently are. Also when was the last time you opened up an avengers comic and saw someone running around with 'pets'. This is also a variation of a summoner or necromancer instead of a true superhero archtype.
Yeah. But this is a game. It's an MMO. And given the things in this game that are actually fairly novel (no loot to speak of till the very end, Sidekicking, solo friendliness) I don't mind that they appropriated some tried-and-true MMO concepts. People like having pets. A LOT. And like as not, healing is useful. Sometimes overrated, but definitely useful.
In any case, this is a thread about a self heal. And that there is plenty of precedent for.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The only thing I can really say is that taking Aid Self in addition to their normal Self Heal will increase their survivability.
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This is the only way I can play my VULNerable scrapper and I will be adding it to my fire tank as well... if I ever decide to play him again that is.
YMMV---IMO
Ice Ember
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Builds using ATs which have inherently high defense and/or include a lot of defense pools (Stealth/CJ/Weave/Hover) have a distinct advantage in Aid Self usage over builds that do not.
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I'm just brain storming a bit here, but I wonder if they could make a distinction between attacks that miss because the attacker's to hit roll whiffed, and those that miss because of the targets defense. If the target aims about as well as an Imperial Storm Trooper, a miss shouldn't interrupt Aid Self. But if they miss because your "armor deflected it" or because "you dodged it", shouldn't Aid Self be interrupted? (Arguably this should apply to all interrupting powers, not just AS.)
If I understand how ToHit/Defense works, this would mean that even level minions would have approximately 50% chance to interrupt AS if they attack while AS is activating. Your defense wouldn't effect this chance at all, but ToHit buffs and debuffs would.
Is this idea good, fair and fun, and would it help balance out Aid Self?
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Sure. I think, compared to many other self heals, Aid Self is over-powered. Mainly, this is due to how Interrupt powers work, and a scale that is slightly too high, so it would not be an easy change to make. It would also be very unpopular, and, in the end, it isn't strictly necessary. So, it stays as is.
Of course, that means every AT that has a self heal can now complain that it isn't as effective as Aid Self, and what are they getting to make this fair? Not much, I'm afraid. The only thing I can really say is that taking Aid Self in addition to their normal Self Heal will increase their survivability.
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Genius, nobody is happy yet everyone is... i think. _Castle_ needs to get a government job
Infinity: 50
InfernalMachine F/F Tank
Shaugraun MA/Reg
Burning Force Fire/kin
Rancor DM/EA Brute
Triumph:
Phanatique Lvl:30 BS/Regen Scrapper
Mu Machine Lvl 44 SS/ElA Brute
God, that would suck big for several powersets across ATs. That's fixing a fly with a big sledghammer, IMO.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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God, that would suck big for several powersets across ATs. That's fixing a fly with a big sledghammer, IMO.
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LOL, good to have at least one person's opinion on it, though calling my idea a "big sledgehammer" seems a bit excessive.
Remember, this power really isn't supposed to be dependable during combat, but "several powersets" can use this power reliably during combat because of their high defense. My idea would bring them back in line with other power sets that aren't def based (maybe too far back in line, I don't know) without any additional changes to the power itself.
Like I said, I'm just brainstorming here.
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God, that would suck big for several powersets across ATs. That's fixing a fly with a big sledghammer, IMO.
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And I believe that is *exactly* why _Castle_ thinks Aid Self is overpowered.
The devs will either need to remove the benefit of +DEF on interruptable powers (major change), or they will need to nerf/change aid self so that it doesn't benefit +DEF sets much more than other sets (smaller change). If they change it which way do you think they will go?
I have Aid Self on my Brute, and it's the best thing since sliced bread. I'm also thinking about adding it to my Invul Tanker. With 2 interrupt SOs I get nearly a 100% fire rate on it under normal combat conditions, and about 50/50 when under DoT. Issue 7 will make it work even better with defense scaling.
I would never consider putting it on my Blaster. Firing it is too unreliable even with interrupt enhancers due to the lack of defense (I wouldn't put it on my Corrupter or regen Scrapper either, but there is obviously more than one reason in those cases).
_Castle_ says they are not changing Aid Self in I7. I believe him. But I know they will change Aid Self "soon"(tm). They have to, it's too unbalancing to have it work great for some sets and be almost useless for others.
Edit: After thinking about it... the easiest fix (therefore the most likely one to be implemented) would be to remove interrupt enhancements from Aid Self. +DEF sets would still have a better chance of getting it to fire in combat, but it would be a pretty low chance.
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Dev post.
Without a dev post it's just a rumor... 
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Worse - it's a player's speculation, drawn from an inference that the player took from somethng he read - regarding something he is afraid of. It's not *even* a rumor - until he started posting it as near Fact.
A shining example of self-created player Hysteria.
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Unfortunately, this is not self created at all. As posted before, <a href="showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Tanker&Numbe r=5101414&Forum=,,All_Forums,,&Words=& Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Main=5082750&Sea rch=true&where=&Name=134522&daterange= &newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&ol dertype=&bodyprev=#Post5101414" target="_blank">_Castle_ WANTS to nerf it</a>. He may state the truth, that the power has not been changed as of his posting, but that does not changes <a href="showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Tanker&Numbe r=5101414&Forum=,,All_Forums,,&Words=& Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Main=5082750&Sea rch=true&where=&Name=134522&daterange= &newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&ol dertype=&bodyprev=#Post5101414" target="_blank">he wants to nerf the power.</a>
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Yes, yes .. and that post was in reply to? Somoene's speculation. Castle said he would change it if it was up to him, but that he is not going to change it. Feel free to keep waving up one post as your 'proof', but all that is is his opinion of the power. You conveniently leave out the posts where he says he is not changing it.
Enjoy your Speculation, but please - stop trying to pass it off as The Truth.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
You fubared the thread, please fix. Thanks.
Phantom Rose: Ill / Kin / Psi
Soleau: Ice / Icy / Ice / Core: Ice / Fire / Pyre / Wind / Eclipse / Flare / Corona
---------------
Solo Space
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I agree with what UberGuy said.
Too often people think of pool powers only in relation to specific ATs (or even subsets of ATs) rather than all ATs.
Aid Self is not overpowered on my fire blaster that has it. It's a tool that helps him survive and must be used within the limits described above. He has nothing else to fall back on when solo, save for respites, unlike many (but not all) melee characters who may already have a self-heal.
On the other hand, my ice blaster does not use Aid Self because he uses his holds to help mitigate damage in a way that the fire blaster can't.
The system works. Let's leave it as is, please.
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Now give your Ice Blaster Aid Self. Is that now balanced in comparison to your Fire Blaster?
Shouldn't the Fire Blaster be given some benefit such that taking Aid Self isn't required to bring him on par with the Ice Blaster?