uhh..how? if all toggle dropping attacks (except mezzes, of course) are going to stop dropping toggles...what the hell mez does a /ff have? we have a knockback that's ignored by guys with acrobatics, and force bubble, which only repels people out of melee range...controllers can still kick our [censored]
[ QUOTE ]
uhh..how? if all toggle dropping attacks (except mezzes, of course) are going to stop dropping toggles...what the hell mez does a /ff have? we have a knockback that's ignored by guys with acrobatics, and force bubble, which only repels people out of melee range...controllers can still kick our [censored]
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you have read some Dev posts that I haven't (I've been away for a while) - Is there confirmation anywhere that only mezzes will drop toggles now?
they haven't said exactly what they're doing, but they did say toggle drops would be severely cut back, which most interpret to mean entirely, except for mez
Cut back doesn't mean eliminated 
(Yeah, I read Castle's post). Going on the number of tanks still screaming on the PvP forums about detoggles, and worried that the changes won't be enough, I don't think 'most' people think detoggles are going away.
I suspect they'll be reducing the chance of any single hit detoggling, and in cases where abilities dropped multiple toggles, perhaps only have them drop one.
[ QUOTE ]
Incorrect. FF does not have a form of control.
[/ QUOTE ]
Knockback is a "soft control", and /FF offers two powers that provide that: Forcebolt and Repulsion Field.
Then, there's always the single-target Hold, Detention Field.
And arguably, the "very soft control" of the Repel that comes with Force Bubble.
[ QUOTE ]
Detention field- I can hold someone...oh wait....its not a hold, it phases them so they can't be hurt. Sure, they're not hurting me, but they also can't be effected by the outside world.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nor can they affect the world. Slap it down on that annoying Controller, so she stops whacking your team's brute with holds and immob's. Smack it on their Empath, and stem the flow of Heals their way.
Lemme examine FF ...
You've got Force Bolt...in PvP knockdown is a thing of the past especially for the folks like brutes an tanks and even scrappers an stalkers.
Chances of hitting it twice in a row on anyting are also nil considering even blasters seem to have amazing def (yay APPs).
Repulsion bomb. again knockdown/back. Probably not gonna affect alot of people in pvp. Also has a long enough animation to make you a sitting duck.
Force bubble...hahahahaha yeah...who DOESN'T have atleast one ranged attack? Especially by and not long after lvl 38...Even if they don't have a ranged attack there are several powersets that allow the player to walk, albeit slowly, through a FBubble.
As an MM you're best bet is to let your pets heal each other, use inspirations. Toss up PFF an set them to bodyguard. Maybe if you're a thug let your henchmen be bodtguards then call the posse to do the damage.
[ QUOTE ]
Lemme examine FF ...
You've got Force Bolt...in PvP knockdown is a thing of the past especially for the folks like brutes an tanks and even scrappers an stalkers.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's still a detoggler.
[ QUOTE ]
Chances of hitting it twice in a row on anyting are also nil considering even blasters seem to have amazing def (yay APPs).
[/ QUOTE ]
So slot for accuracy. *shrug*
Have it 3 slotted for accuracy. In PvP PCs get a natural Def buff on top of any Def powers...atleast it seems like PCs that aren't my FF Defender do :-p with tactics and 3 ACC in Force Bolt still rarely hit same target twice. And while I'm trying to keep that Corruptor on his butt a Stalker one shots me...Trying to concentrate fire on one person in PvP isn't plausible as a squishy unless you outnumber the opposing team...especially as an MM...
Also the detoggling on Bubble powers is hard to see. First of all many powers will recharge within the time these FF powers that detoggle them do. Not to mention that it's not a huge percentage chance of detoggling to begin with. Brawl has almost as good a chance as FB...
Not to mention that it'll be rare you'll be fighting someone solo in PvP especially as an MM since once people see pets they immediately go for the MM...
[ QUOTE ]
I don't have that much experience with FF, but do Force Bolt, Detetion Field and Force Buble really have no effect on combat?
[/ QUOTE ]
I use Detention Field alot in PvP. It is my favorite power in Siren's Call right now. A pesky Blapper with a pocket Empath giving me trouble? DF the Emp while my Mercs go to town on the Blapper. Right about the time the Blapper goes down, the Emp is coming out of DF so I can finish him off too. FF can be very good at disrupting an opposing team when used correctly. One of the biggest misconceptions I see is that it is only defensive.
The only way I foresee this changing things for me is that is allows me to set up and re-apply my bubbles safer in the field, which I definately like.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lemme examine FF ...
You've got Force Bolt...in PvP knockdown is a thing of the past especially for the folks like brutes an tanks and even scrappers an stalkers.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's still a detoggler.
[/ QUOTE ]
HELLO!!!!! Detoggles are being nerfed!!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Chances of hitting it twice in a row on anyting are also nil considering even blasters seem to have amazing def (yay APPs).
[/ QUOTE ]
So slot for accuracy. *shrug*
[/ QUOTE ]
It wasn't me you were responding to, but I wanted to put in my 5 cents
I have 3 accuracy 1 range and 1 recharge in my forcebolt. Slotting of forcebolt isn't the issue. Please address the issue, which is the fact that Bodyguard is making FF secondary virtually useless.
Funny thing is FF as a primary was made worthless long ago like at launch
However I must say Detention Field rocks in PvP...why? 3 words:
Storm Summoning Defenders
or more specifically one word:
Hurricane
Get up, Detention field the Hurricane using Defender then let teammates get those squishies that were hiding in there...
Often people don't even notice the Defender was detentioned and even the defender might not notice your team has a good 5-10 seconds atleast before the call goes out that he's been bubbled.
Okay, I have only read up to page 15. I still say this power is worthless to melee and a little usefull to ranged. Like Orochi said, ninja need to concentrate on one target, and drop him fast. For that they need to be directed to attack, or they will use those craptastic ranged powers they have.
This is not gonna make the pets the targets of attacks, as it will only take a few more hits to drop the mastermind. A aoe taunt on the pets, or the pets stay alive after you die, and get vengence, would make people think twice about just attacking the mastermind.
In other words, Bodyguard sucks.
Come on devs, art guys, where is my Maid costume for my characters! 5 years now, its a simple request.
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I have only read up to page 15. I still say this power is worthless to melee and a little usefull to ranged. Like Orochi said, ninja need to concentrate on one target, and drop him fast. For that they need to be directed to attack, or they will use those craptastic ranged powers they have.
This is not gonna make the pets the targets of attacks, as it will only take a few more hits to drop the mastermind. A aoe taunt on the pets, or the pets stay alive after you die, and get vengence, would make people think twice about just attacking the mastermind.
In other words, Bodyguard sucks.
[/ QUOTE ]
You should really go back and check some of the posts you skipped. "A few more hits" may be higher than you think, according to the math, which is showing MMs suriving 2500 damage worth of AoEs.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I have only read up to page 15. I still say this power is worthless to melee and a little usefull to ranged. Like Orochi said, ninja need to concentrate on one target, and drop him fast. For that they need to be directed to attack, or they will use those craptastic ranged powers they have.
This is not gonna make the pets the targets of attacks, as it will only take a few more hits to drop the mastermind. A aoe taunt on the pets, or the pets stay alive after you die, and get vengence, would make people think twice about just attacking the mastermind.
In other words, Bodyguard sucks.
[/ QUOTE ]
You should really go back and check some of the posts you skipped. "A few more hits" may be higher than you think, according to the math, which is showing MMs suriving 2500 damage worth of AoEs.
[/ QUOTE ]And that's if I keep them around me, shooting their craptastic bows, and shuriken. Not sending them off to take out the threat, using their awsome melee abilities.
Come on devs, art guys, where is my Maid costume for my characters! 5 years now, its a simple request.
[ QUOTE ]
And that's if I keep them around me, shooting their craptastic bows, and shuriken. Not sending them off to take out the threat, using their awsome melee abilities.
[/ QUOTE ]
You could always walk them into melee yourself. They are on Follow.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And that's if I keep them around me, shooting their craptastic bows, and shuriken. Not sending them off to take out the threat, using their awsome melee abilities.
[/ QUOTE ]
You could always walk them into melee yourself. They are on Follow.
[/ QUOTE ]Hmmm, Dokunoichi stays out of melee range, poisoning her targets, while my ninja concentrate all attacks on that one target, when that one dies, I pick a target, command them to attack, poison it, and kill it. I repeat this process till my enemies are dead. I need all my ninja to be doing this, not hanging around me.
Taunt would be better.
Come on devs, art guys, where is my Maid costume for my characters! 5 years now, its a simple request.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And that's if I keep them around me, shooting their craptastic bows, and shuriken. Not sending them off to take out the threat, using their awsome melee abilities.
[/ QUOTE ]
You could always walk them into melee yourself. They are on Follow.
[/ QUOTE ]Hmmm, Dokunoichi stays out of melee range, poisoning her targets, while my ninja concentrate all attacks on that one target, when that one dies, I pick a target, command them to attack, poison it, and kill it. I repeat this process till my enemies are dead. I need all my ninja to be doing this, not hanging around me.
Taunt would be better.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, sure, if you refuse to change your playstyle.
Have you considered the radius on this? Does anyone know, offhand what the raduis for Supremacy is?
Next time you log in, check for the Supremacy buff icon next to your pets' names, then tell them to stay and back away slowly. I suspect you don't have to be standing right on top of your minions for it to kick in. You've probably got a good distance outside of melee range to work with.
And, heck, if you're standing back so far as to not let Supremacy kick in, then your pets really aren't working at full offensive potential anyway, so you're already shooting yourself in the foot.
[ QUOTE ]
Have you considered the radius on this? Does anyone know, offhand what the raduis for Supremacy is?
[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's the same as the leadership toggles.
Man, I guess people were right about all internet discussions eventually turning into mindless flamefests.
Seriously folks, I'd reply to everything people have gotten wrong in this thread, but it would take all day and double the length of the thread.
Fact: With bodyguard up, MMs are going to be very difficult to kill directly. You have to pump in 4 times as much damage, which is way more than most ATs can burst. I'm still dubious about that EM stalker study too.
Fact: Force Field is a Buff/Control set. Lots of people ignore the control powers (Detention Field, Force Bolt, Repulsion Bomb, Repulsion Field, Force Bubble) to their own peril. If someone says "FF only offers buffs and it totally sux in PvP", you can ignore them because they're an idiot.
Fact: PvP will not be safe and easy for MMs. TP foe, Build Up + 8 Rages + Assassin Strike + Energy Transfer + Total Focus + etc..., Detention field, Black Hole, etc... It's all bad news. If you can't handle this, don't PvP. If you absolutely can't stand dying, then don't PvP. Don't come crying on the boards because you've died more in PvP (in your first time in the zone) than you have in the past 10 levels. PvP is something that requires skill, planning, and most of all, practice. The guys who keep kicking your butt are the ones that PvP all of the time, and have for nearly a year now. Just think how good you'll feel when you start beating them reguarly (they beat each other regularly). MMs have a lot of tricks they can pull out in PvP, and with Bodyguard a lot more of them will be viable.
Fact: PFF got nerfed. I know. It doesn't really affect me much, but I know it hurts a lot of you. I'm sorry, but it really was abusive. Even if we didn't get Bodyguard, it was going to be nerfed anyway.
Fact: No matter how much you whine, the devs aren't going to put back the feature you were exploiting. Just ask /Devices blasters that cried for _months_ over the Smoke Grenade fix. If you find something that makes one set considerably better than anything else, don't be surprised when it's changed later, and don't think that temper tantrums on the forums are going to help.
I think this is going to be my last post in this thread. I've already made my points, and I see no value in the arguments currently running.
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone know, offhand what the raduis for Supremacy is?
[/ QUOTE ]
Supremacy has a pretty large radius of about 60ft.
The more I think about this change, the more I love it for PvE and hate it for PvP. Bodyguard now makes it impossible for Warwolves and Freakshow Tanks to one shot me if I somehow draw aggro which is pretty cool (only way I ever die when I am careless).
In PvP though, meh, I've got very mixed feelings about it. I think the MMs main problem is that PvP is all about MOBILITY and that pets are, as someone ably put, six lead weights. Bodyguard only makes that lead weight more heavy. I'll probably still use Fly and command my pets from 400ft up in the air.
I believe it's 30 meters.
Come on devs, art guys, where is my Maid costume for my characters! 5 years now, its a simple request.
Detention Field is probably the best PvP FF power solely for it's utility.
Repulsion Field and Force bubble are only good at stopping/uncovering stalkers.
Anyone else can either walk through it or has ranged attacks/debuffs.
Also the shear size of FBub means you're gonna bring the wrath of a random mob or 3 if you aren't very careful.
And F Bolt....bah, nice PvE power and ok if you aren't fighting most ay stalker, tanker, brute or scrapper or anyone with the SuperLeap/acrobatics...maybe if Force Bolt had a -Fly...like 10 seconds...
Supremacy has a great range, you just need to make sure you have line of sight on your pets. It is very easy to stand back from the battle and still keep supremacy and leadership powers on your pets.
The problem I have is I have been trying out defensive/follow. Using a low level mastermind, I had two pets. Both set to defensive/follow. I walked up to a group of three yellow-con minion enemies. I could have killed them all fairly quickly, if I just ordered the pets to attack them one at a time, but I wanted to see the fight play out by using defensive to get my pets fighting.
I ended up with three enemies attacking, one of my pets fighting back, and the other one just standing there next to me NOT fighting. I had to order an attack to get them both to fight.
I also tried out the idea of ordering my pets to attack and then quickly order them back to defensive/follow mode. This is no that easy. If you do it too quickly, they never attack. But the longer you wait, you are creating a larger window of bodyguard being down. Bodyguard is starting to seem more like a gamblers power to me.
[ QUOTE ]
so you're saying we get 3 powers from our secondary that are decent in pvp?
too bad detention field is hated by 99% of the population
and repulsion bomb sounds too funky for most people to even try it out (including me), plus toggle drops are getting nerfed in i7
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope. Didn't say that... Just that you have to utilise your soft controls (or primary attacks) if you want to be on the offensive whilst using BG for short periods of time.
Oh, and if you don't take a skill because it 'sounds too funky', then you have far bigger problems.
Edit:
Yes, toggle drops are being nerfed... Guess what, as MMs, we'll still UTTERLY rely on them. As a /FF MM, you're best equipped to take down toggles.