SinisterThrenody

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> Yes sometimes deaths DO occur but you're blowing through missions so fast that it's gone before you can blink.

You can get away with this on newspaper missions vs the weaker gangs on 8P relentless. The gangs (Council, Freaks, Family, Raiders, etc.) aren't as tough, the map layouts are always the basic office or warehouse, and there's only one ambush - the one you get after killing the hostage spawn.

But try doing that on 8P relentless on a longbow lab, some wailer maps, or arachnos base missions. The gangs are nasty, map layouts are complex and packed with easy near-guaranteed wipe double and triple aggros, and ambushes are frequent and often unannounced. I guarantee you the brutes fury is not worth dealing with 4 +3 longbow bosses at once when you inevitably double aggro.

Herding can be efficient but it's also extremely boring. I run my teams to have fun with the missions, not maximize XP/hour. That means pulling when necessary, and moving at mobs as a whole team otherwise.

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I don't have problems with contact mission. I very rarely (if ever) double or triple aggro. The only time where my SG will have to deal with more than a single spawn is when you have two that are interlaced. For example, we did the respec trial set on relentless yesterday in less than one hour without a hitch. I guess it might be because we regularly play together and know what everyone else is doing.

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I disagree - pulling is very frequently the most efficient method of initiating attack. There is another reason for "pulling" which has not been directly discussed here - to place the mobs in a compact group, near a wall for other obstacle. There are many, many very good AOE based powers which either function much better if enemies are tightly grouped, or don't function at all if they are spread out. For example - soft controls or AOE debuffs (ice slick, earthquake, tar patch), defender debuff toggles (radiation infection, darkest night), tank taunt auras, and blaster AOE damage. All of these can have a huge effect on the speed with which enemies are dispatched, and the safety of doing so.

A good corner pull is usually the ideal way to set up these powers. Enemies will run up until they turn the corner, at which point they will stop and attack. One after another they will group-up nice and tight, right at the corner. As an added bonus, a good corner pull usually has a wall next to the enemies, to contain knockback (if properly directed).

To address the point of the OP, I think the reason why pulling is poorly done, if used at all, is that it's effectiveness is not as obvious to the soloer. Many people learn to play as soloers, and simply carry their solo tactics into the team environment (everbody pick someone and attack; when dead, pick another).

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Oh yeah, corner pulls are definetely nice. Let me clarify and say that what I meant by pulling in my initial post was the 1 by 1 method. Using a debuff toggle and running around a corner to bunch up the mobs is one of my favorite tactics and is definetely beneficial. When no herder is online, I'll usually act as a ghetto herder by putting RI+EF on 2 mobs in 2 spawns and run back towards a choke point where my friends are waiting.

I don't play CoH much but over on CoV, pulling is non-existent because it is never needed or efficient, barring VERY extraordinary circumstances (say lvl10 8 man team facing an AV with a bunch of reds around it. ah!). The "Chaos" of running headlong into the next spawn is actually beneficial in CoV because Brutes get to go in with near full fury and Smash things to bits. As long as there's some blue left (and I very rarely see anyone run out, those blue thingamajigs in your insp tray are meant to be used you know?) you should run to the next spawn as fast as you can. If you're too hurt or out of breath, rest and let your teammates run in. Full team relentless spawns can be easily downed by 3-4 villains without much danger at all anyway. Yes sometimes deaths DO occur but you're blowing through missions so fast that it's gone before you can blink.
Maybe I sound a little antagonistic but I really don't see why you'd want to pull.

Now herding is still effective IMO if you have someone that can defeat the whole herd very quickly. I've seen Stone Brutes in Granite herd a whole room and then the rest of the team attack the mob with single target attacks (that's all we had). What exactly are we achieving by doing this rather than defeating mobs one after the other? Nothing. On the other hand, if you have a couple AoE focused toons (especially Corruptors with their nukes and/or AoE heavy sets) you can kill things so fast that just one herder is not enough and you ideally need 2.

Now what irks me the most is when I play my Rad/Rad Corr (who can defeat a whole herd in less than 10 seconds) and some idiot messes with my /Stone Brute friend's herding. You'll always have a Stalker try to AS a LT (who would have died from the AoEs... that was useful!), a Fire/Fire Brute who wants to be cool just like the Granite Brute (and faceplants repeatedly, maybe he's working on debt badges?) or a Dominator hellbent on using confuse every time it's up on the mobs the Brute is trying to herd (that's useful.... how?). The best way to deal with those people is to simply KICK them. Yep that's right! Don't waste time explaining things over and over, if you tell people "Stay here and wait till X brings the guys over, then use your debuffs but don't attack until Y attacks, then heal Y and mop up whoever is left standing" and they don't do it right within 2-3 herds, kick 'em!

Besides, is it really so hard to find regular teammates that you get along with playstyle-wise? I refused to join a SG for a long time and kept running PuGs or teamming with a few friends I had on Global and I ran into problems regularly but since I joined a VG, I never ever have to team with people who are -BAD-. Yes sometimes we'll have someone from coalition invite a friend and that friend will be a MM who keeps their pets on aggressive all the time and refuse to give them any orders but like I said before, there's a kick button. Don't be afraid to use it.

And as far as finding good tanks that know how to herd, I really don't see what is so hard about running through a couple spawns with your PBAoE damage aura on, using taunt a few times, then running around a corner and wait for the mobs to bunch up and launch one or two AoEs. How can someone mess that up?

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Does anyone know, offhand what the raduis for Supremacy is?

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Supremacy has a pretty large radius of about 60ft.

The more I think about this change, the more I love it for PvE and hate it for PvP. Bodyguard now makes it impossible for Warwolves and Freakshow Tanks to one shot me if I somehow draw aggro which is pretty cool (only way I ever die when I am careless).

In PvP though, meh, I've got very mixed feelings about it. I think the MMs main problem is that PvP is all about MOBILITY and that pets are, as someone ably put, six lead weights. Bodyguard only makes that lead weight more heavy. I'll probably still use Fly and command my pets from 400ft up in the air.

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I've taken down Deathsurge once. It's true he does have a large aggro range and was suprisingly easy to take down (though I died twice from taking too much aggro. I am a brute, then again).

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Deathsurge is incredibly easy. I duoed him with my Rad/Rad and some random brute. Very disapointing :/

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Still more in damage than a MM's HP on high powered attacks. At best, my MM will be two shot instead of one.

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Uh? I'm pretty sure my MM has lots more HP than 40% of an BUed AS...

With all your pets out and on Bodyguard, you'll take only 28.6% of that AS actually (25% if you're Necro and have the Ghost out )

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Just guessing but this doesn't include scrapper/stalker criticals or the unresistable portion of blaster attacks, right? If not, this feature isn't adding much.

Something like 40% from a AIM + BU + Total Focus or a hit from AS is still going to be greater than my MM's HP, so Bodyguard does nothing for me. And if I am reading this correctly, since Henchman will now take additional damage due to Bodyguard from AoE attacks, they'll go down even faster than they already do.

I liked the idea of an AoE Taunt for the henchman better.

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Castle said this earlier in the thread in answer to someone asking about Blaster unresistible damage:
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It takes the entire block of damage and apportions it by the ratios described. For the Mastermind, he then gets his Resistances applied, while the pets get no resistance to the shared damage.

In the case of unresistable damage, therefore, all damage is apportioned, then resists apply normally -- the unresisted portion is still unresisted, but it is reduced by the Bodyguard.

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I'm guessing this will work the same way for Defiance, Criticals, Containment, Assassin Strike and Scourge. It seems to me like Bodyguard just looks at the amount of damage coming in, regardless of type and source, and spreads it amongst your pets.

It'd be real nice if a Dev could confirm it works on ALL those Inherents or which Bodyguard doesn't affect. Will it work on falling damage too?

Alright I gave this some thought over the night and here are my initial impressions:
1) Defensive mode is my favorite mode, I'm a control freak and I hate when my pets run away to attack someone I don't intend to due to being on aggressive. I make extensive use of the "Attack my target // defensive" command when I want them attacking something, maybe I'll just have one or two stay on Follow now...
2) I like to have all my pets focus on one target, it's just so much more efficient. That said, the times I die in PvE and PvP is because I get one-shotted by an attack that does just a bit over my HP, keeping one zombie on Bodyguard duty at all times should take care of that.
3) Supremacy has a very large radius, keeping pets in range should not be a problem in a fight unless you fly way above your pets or stand far far away from them.
4) Pets are slow, very slow. This is my main gripe with Bodyguard (and pets in general) in PvP. With everyone jumping around like a grasshopper on crack, there's no way you can rely on bodyguard if you intend to have any mobility at all. Basically we'll be like Granite Tanks/Brutes, little islands of massive defense. This is probably as intended though.
5) As a few posters before me mentioned, it'll be interesting to see how sensitive Bodyguard is to orders you give. I can definetely see a good micro-manager making use of quick binds to juggle between Attack my Target and Defensive Follow.
6) There's no reason for your pets NOT to be on Defensive/Follow when not in combat in PvP. This means no Stalker can ever one shot you with AS. In fact, with 7 pets on Defensive/Follow, AS will tickle.

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This is interesting. I'm having crazy images of MM's using Provoke.

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That's what I was thinking about too

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STOP NECROPOSTING!!!

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Dude chill, that was the OP saying his planner was updated with current power info :P

Oh wow, the difference with debuffs is much greater than in the graph you posted last week in another thread

I've read about 10 pages of this thread and I didn't see this point brought up anywhere.

In all the other MMORPGs I've played, "assassin" type AT/Classes/Whathaveyou always always always draw the very same comments from the other players: "Getting one shotted by an enemy you can't see is no fun". The "assassins" always answer: "With this very specific build/pick of powers/equipment/whatever, you can hold your own against us". You would think that MMORPG game designers would look at other games, see what is working and isn't and then try to make it better for their game.

The usual fix to the one shot problem is to make the "assassin strike" power hit for a significant amount of damage but not so much to one shot anyone (say down to orange health in CoX). Obviously this cannot work in CoX as characters have such great mobility that they can easily run away.

Stalkers as designed are pretty much an "All or nothing" type of character. Either you cripple/kill your target or you miss and get trounced/have to run. This is great fun for the person doing it as evidenced by the popularity of Stalkers in CoX and this type of thing in games in general but it's not fun at all to be on the receiving end.

Obviously the devs won't roll-back the whole Stalker AT. They should have given some thought to this when making CoV however and not made the class at all. Unfortunately it is a great archetype in superhero/villain mythology and leaving it out would have hurt have been awkward from a conceptual point of view although I think the game would have been better off from a purely mechanical point of view

That said, Stalkers are here and they're here to stay. Deal with it. No amount of fixes and tweaks will make Stalkers fun for the people getting ASed unless they cripple AS/Stealth so much as to make Stalkers themselves not fun.