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In PvP, what happens to you now? Presumably, your enemies just ignore your pets and Build Up+Snipe You, or whatever.
Now, if you've got your pets on Defensive/Follow, you're effectively being given up to 75% more HP, drawn from your pets.
Yes, it doesn't really bring your secondary into play, but that's not really different than before, right? Your pets die when you die, and in my experience, it's faster to kill the MM (unless using PFF), and ignore the pets than it is to target the pets.
Is your complaint that bodyguarding won't do anything, or that it won't do enough?
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What I'm saying is that the implementation clearly sets up FF secondary MMs as having huge PvP disadvantages. No other set is having powers bypassed by this implementation. Dark Miasma is actually being BOOSTED tremendously due to their AoE heal. The strength of FF is protection. I don't get the versatility traps, I don't get the offensive load of poison, what I'm supposed to get is defense...not so much for me, but for my minions.
What does this implementation allow heroes to do? They can now bypass all of the bubbles that I put on my pets. Sure, I will live longer. I'm not arguing that. My problem is my secondary is about PROTECTING my minions, and this implementation of Bodyguard allows heroes to bypass all of those defenses, ignore all of my minion's resistances, and simply pour the damage in through ME.
Other MM secondaries will allow you to be doing SOMETHING about it, either fight back, lay traps, use poison, etc. but FF doesn't allow for that, except for forcebolt....a laughably minor damage attack, which if they have acrobatics they can even ignore the knockback effect. Yes, it can detoggle, but even THAT is being nerfed with the detoggling changes...right?? So while Dark Miasma is using their heal, poison is using their various poison attacks, traps can lay down their mortar, triage beacon, poison trap, detonate a minion, etc., Even trick arrow, a set rarely taken, would have ways to fight back.... FF is supposed to do what? I sit there and watch my bots die because my secondary doesn't have any way to fight back...and the defenses it is SUPPOSED to provide are being circumvented by the very power that is keeping me alive. The trouble is 1) I can't run, because I'll run out of bodyguard range of my pets. 2) I can't heal my pets. 3) I can't effectively fight back. Now I get to put up my PFF, run for the safety of the zoneline, just to spend another 5 minutes making and buffing pets again.
Didn't ANYBODY on the design team think this through?
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Are you ignoring the fact that the force fields you apply to your henchmen will still be effective against the AoE attacks targetted against you? They will take their share of damage to you unresisted and undefended in the bodyguard mode, but the part of the AoE attack that targets them will be resisted and defended against. So in this regard forcefield Masterminds will have superior protection against AoE attacks than the other secondary types.
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Against AoE attacks...MAYBE. But we still lack any way to fight back effectively (forcebolt hardly counts) we still don't have a way to keep our pets alive, and remember, AoE attacks are a MINORITY of the attacks in the game. The large majority of what people use in PvP are single target. Knowing you can pump damage through the MM and kill the pets easier and faster than attacking the pets themselves (even with AoE attacks) why should anyone every bother attacking a pet? As I said before, Traps, Poison, even Trick Arrow can fight back....Dark Miasma can heal....FF get to sit there and watch our pets die, because our bubbles are IGNORED, and the protection we provide to ourselves is laughable.
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Against AoE attacks...MAYBE. But we still lack any way to fight back effectively (forcebolt hardly counts) we still don't have a way to keep our pets alive, and remember, AoE attacks are a MINORITY of the attacks in the game. The large majority of what people use in PvP are single target. Knowing you can pump damage through the MM and kill the pets easier and faster than attacking the pets themselves (even with AoE attacks) why should anyone every bother attacking a pet? As I said before, Traps, Poison, even Trick Arrow can fight back....Dark Miasma can heal....FF get to sit there and watch our pets die, because our bubbles are IGNORED, and the protection we provide to ourselves is laughable.
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Ok, don't take this as a flame 
You seem to be complaining that you have no attacks, and having picked up a supporting secondary (FF) as opposed to a more offensive one (traps/DM/Poison) have little you can offer the fight yourself if you are personally under attack...
Well... Newsflash. That was always going to be the case.
BG is NOT a '100% fix all, sit there in complete and utter safety laughing your [censored] off at the enemy whilst he ineffectively plinks at you whilst pets kill him' solution.
BG should be used as an emergency buffer period, where you attempt to place yourself in an advantageous situation - ie. where the enemy is no longer frickin shooting you.
The role of the MM in PvP has not changed - we're never going to be a class that can (or should) stand there toe to toe with a DD class knocking lumps out of each other until one drops. BG should buy you time, and help remove the potential for sudden death - but inevitably, if you're getting hit, you'll want to stop getting hit.
The PRIMARY order given to your pet in PvP should still be an attack order, not a defensive (BG) order. This is how we'll do the majority of our killing. If we start taking hits, then sure, go Def - and run like crazy - then go on the offensive again.
Finally, need I remind you that as a FF user, you have the ultimate option of PFF - massively raising your defense.
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MMs safety comes from hiding behind pets,..
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For starters. The there's your secondary and your power pools powers. The MM secondaries all have some form of control in them. MMs are the best soloing AT out there in PvE, as they combine god-like safety with very nice firepower.
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My level 23 Dom can solo with only slightly less safety then my MM, and goes at about the same speed due to not having to set up at the start of a mission.
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I do a lot of PvP missions, as those are the best xp bang for your time bucks. Scrappers and brutes are about kneck-to-kneck the fastest soloers, but they can have problems with different bosses, depending on their build. MMs, otoh, are setup-time slower, and can deal with bosses in pretty much absolute safety. Even if it's a very tough boss, you can kill and run, come back, and take care of it. Only controllers match that safety, but they lack the firepower.
-Jeff
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Im not sure if that is a fair trade off as seeing that MMs have low hp. It makes more sense to have the MM an inherit -TP much like the PVE bosses.
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Should MMs be allowed to send their pets far ahead while they stay behind? That's the trade off. You as an MM can stand in the middle of the zerg and send your pets into the middle of hero's line, and their only recourse is to tab through all the players to find your or to kill the pets.
I really don't understand all the fuss - the big problem with MMs wasn't TP-Foe - if one person TPs you, you can get away (barring traps). The big problem was that one person could run right up to you and kill you with very little effort. Now if they try that they'll be in for a surprise.
-Jeff
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Personally, I don't really think the PvP concerns will matter much, since PvP isn't balanced based on one Vs. one. If you have something you are particularly weak to, teamup with someone who can help you out.
But anyhow, if they decided they wanted to do it, maybe the Devs could make it so:
If the MM is targetted with a TP Foe type power, each Bodyguard has a chance of being picked as the target instead. So, instead of porting you away from your minions, theres a chance they will just snag one of the bodyguards instead.
Just a thought.
[/ QUOTE ]See, now that makes sense.
There are so many ways to get around this "fix" for an attacker that my decision to shelve my MM remains. Let's consider some of the issues here. The pets have to remain in the supremecy zone... which means they need to be near the MM himself. One attacker can run in aggro the pets and run out, the pets will follow, the MM has a choice, put pets on passive to bring them back or run after his fastly scattering pets. Most now in order to control their pets put them on passive to return them. If he puts them on passive or they leave his area a quick strike will kill him. Simple to do especially on a ninj MM.
TP foe negates this altogether, tp him, hit him hard and stun him or put him in a hold, kill him.. his pets will never get there in time.
I can see putting some sort of limit on the ability of MMs to share hp loss with their pets... otherwise they might actually become a force to reckon with... but this limit makes the rest pointless. Basically just standing there is no protection for a MM nor is actually getting involved in the battle. This is just the sort of gimpy fix I expected from the devs. Nice work guys.
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There are so many ways to get around this "fix" for an attacker that my decision to shelve my MM remains. Let's consider some of the issues here. The pets have to remain in the supremecy zone... which means they need to be near the MM himself. One attacker can run in aggro the pets and run out, the pets will follow, the MM has a choice, put pets on passive to bring them back or run after his fastly scattering pets. Most now in order to control their pets put them on passive to return them. If he puts them on passive or they leave his area a quick strike will kill him. Simple to do especially on a ninj MM.
TP foe negates this altogether, tp him, hit him hard and stun him or put him in a hold, kill him.. his pets will never get there in time.
I can see putting some sort of limit on the ability of MMs to share hp loss with their pets... otherwise they might actually become a force to reckon with... but this limit makes the rest pointless. Basically just standing there is no protection for a MM nor is actually getting involved in the battle. This is just the sort of gimpy fix I expected from the devs. Nice work guys.
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We'll see. I hope I7 comes out sometime soon.
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Against AoE attacks...MAYBE. But we still lack any way to fight back effectively (forcebolt hardly counts) we still don't have a way to keep our pets alive, and remember, AoE attacks are a MINORITY of the attacks in the game. The large majority of what people use in PvP are single target. Knowing you can pump damage through the MM and kill the pets easier and faster than attacking the pets themselves (even with AoE attacks) why should anyone every bother attacking a pet? As I said before, Traps, Poison, even Trick Arrow can fight back....Dark Miasma can heal....FF get to sit there and watch our pets die, because our bubbles are IGNORED, and the protection we provide to ourselves is laughable.
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Ok, don't take this as a flame
You seem to be complaining that you have no attacks, and having picked up a supporting secondary (FF) as opposed to a more offensive one (traps/DM/Poison) have little you can offer the fight yourself if you are personally under attack...
Well... Newsflash. That was always going to be the case.
BG is NOT a '100% fix all, sit there in complete and utter safety laughing your [censored] off at the enemy whilst he ineffectively plinks at you whilst pets kill him' solution.
BG should be used as an emergency buffer period, where you attempt to place yourself in an advantageous situation - ie. where the enemy is no longer frickin shooting you.
The role of the MM in PvP has not changed - we're never going to be a class that can (or should) stand there toe to toe with a DD class knocking lumps out of each other until one drops. BG should buy you time, and help remove the potential for sudden death - but inevitably, if you're getting hit, you'll want to stop getting hit.
The PRIMARY order given to your pet in PvP should still be an attack order, not a defensive (BG) order. This is how we'll do the majority of our killing. If we start taking hits, then sure, go Def - and run like crazy - then go on the offensive again.
Finally, need I remind you that as a FF user, you have the ultimate option of PFF - massively raising your defense.
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I'm not asking to "sit there in complete and utter safety laughing your [censored] off at the enemy ". I'm asking that my secondary have SOME EFFECT on the combat. You are traps, you have things you can do that will effect the outcome of the fight....you can fight BACK using your secondary. My secondary is supposed to effect the outcome of a fight by allowing my pets to have increased longevity. THAT is what FF is all about...not hiding in my PFF as you suggest. I don't want to use PFF all the time, and I couldn't even if I did since the nerf. You tell me to run away....if I do that I lose the protection of my pets since they can never keep up with me...so the only real solution you are offering is....if I am attacked, put up PFF and run.
Again...Every other secondary for MMs is useful with regard to bodyguard. The ONLY real purpose of FF is to extend the life expectancy of my groupmates and minions....Bodyguard as it stands will bypass the entire purpose of my secondary.
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
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Against AoE attacks...MAYBE. But we still lack any way to fight back effectively (forcebolt hardly counts) we still don't have a way to keep our pets alive, and remember, AoE attacks are a MINORITY of the attacks in the game. The large majority of what people use in PvP are single target. Knowing you can pump damage through the MM and kill the pets easier and faster than attacking the pets themselves (even with AoE attacks) why should anyone every bother attacking a pet? As I said before, Traps, Poison, even Trick Arrow can fight back....Dark Miasma can heal....FF get to sit there and watch our pets die, because our bubbles are IGNORED, and the protection we provide to ourselves is laughable.
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Ok, don't take this as a flame
You seem to be complaining that you have no attacks, and having picked up a supporting secondary (FF) as opposed to a more offensive one (traps/DM/Poison) have little you can offer the fight yourself if you are personally under attack...
Well... Newsflash. That was always going to be the case.
BG is NOT a '100% fix all, sit there in complete and utter safety laughing your [censored] off at the enemy whilst he ineffectively plinks at you whilst pets kill him' solution.
BG should be used as an emergency buffer period, where you attempt to place yourself in an advantageous situation - ie. where the enemy is no longer frickin shooting you.
The role of the MM in PvP has not changed - we're never going to be a class that can (or should) stand there toe to toe with a DD class knocking lumps out of each other until one drops. BG should buy you time, and help remove the potential for sudden death - but inevitably, if you're getting hit, you'll want to stop getting hit.
The PRIMARY order given to your pet in PvP should still be an attack order, not a defensive (BG) order. This is how we'll do the majority of our killing. If we start taking hits, then sure, go Def - and run like crazy - then go on the offensive again.
Finally, need I remind you that as a FF user, you have the ultimate option of PFF - massively raising your defense.
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PFF was gimped. FF as a secondary is less than it was a week ago. In addition ice blasters have never had a problem getting through PFF in the past, now they can knock it off you and it takes 2 minutes for you to get it back up. In addition PFF still removes your supremecy which ends the BG advantages.
If no one beleived in the past there was a bias against villians you should now... the pff was nerfed for MMs ONLY. With BG it would be a power I would respec away. It removes your protection from sharing hp loss with your pets AND it is not hard to get through. BU + Aim gets through the majority of the time.
Let me point out another flaw in your argument. If you put your pets on defensive and run away... guess what? You are taking your supremecy with you but not your pets. They will stay and fight. In addition consider this one. Your pets are on defensive, you are on a team, one of your teammates gets attacked... your pets run off. I am not sure if this sort of behavior is a bug or not since it seems to happen infrequently but does so more in PvP. How many MMs have been buffing their pets only to have them run off over the horizon because some teammate is getting attacked far away... it has happened enough for me that when I am spawning and buffing in PvP I put my pets on passive or aggressive to avoid the "defensive" behavior which seems to include teammates... and we all know soloing with a MM is suicide in PvP.
All in all, my opinion that this is a poorly thought out, gimpy fix remains. If this is a preview of what we can expect in I7 then there are most likely going to be some unhappy customers for ncsoft.
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MMs safety comes from hiding behind pets,..
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For starters. The there's your secondary and your power pools powers. The MM secondaries all have some form of control in them. MMs are the best soloing AT out there in PvE, as they combine god-like safety with very nice firepower.
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Incorrect. FF does not have a form of control. All it has is the ability to extend the life expectancy of my group and minions. It doesn't even protect ME all that much. While all of the other secondaries have control or attacks of some sort, FF does NOT. Bodyguard completely bypasses all protection that I can put on my pets, by channeling the damage directly through me.
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I do a lot of PvP missions, as those are the best xp bang for your time bucks. Scrappers and brutes are about kneck-to-kneck the fastest soloers, but they can have problems with different bosses, depending on their build. MMs, otoh, are setup-time slower, and can deal with bosses in pretty much absolute safety. Even if it's a very tough boss, you can kill and run, come back, and take care of it. Only controllers match that safety, but they lack the firepower.
-Jeff
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You do a lot of missions...but how much exp do you have in PvP?
I PvP a LOT...more than any other MM on my entire server. I think I have a right to be more than slightly upset by the fact that my entire secondary is going to be bypassed by players and totally ignored in PvP.
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
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I'm not asking to "sit there in complete and utter safety laughing your [censored] off at the enemy ". I'm asking that my secondary have SOME EFFECT on the combat. You are traps, you have things you can do that will effect the outcome of the fight....you can fight BACK using your secondary. My secondary is supposed to effect the outcome of a fight by allowing my pets to have increased longevity. THAT is what FF is all about...not hiding in my PFF as you suggest. I don't want to use PFF all the time, and I couldn't even if I did since the nerf. You tell me to run away....if I do that I lose the protection of my pets since they can never keep up with me...so the only real solution you are offering is....if I am attacked, put up PFF and run.
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I don't have that much experience with FF, but do Force Bolt, Detetion Field and Force Buble really have no effect on combat?
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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I don't have that much experience with FF, but do Force Bolt, Detetion Field and Force Buble really have no effect on combat?
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Forcebolt....4pts of damage with knockback. Anyone with knockback protection can ignore this attack. The only thing about this attack that is useful currently is the detoggling effect, and detoggling is being nerfed as well. Before you say that not all heroes have knockback protection....anyone who PvPs to any serious extent DOES, and its not hard to get through the leaping pool.
Detention field- I can hold someone...oh wait....its not a hold, it phases them so they can't be hurt. Sure, they're not hurting me, but they also can't be effected by the outside world. Whats more, they can activate any powers they want that are self effecting. Detention field tends to allow your target to have time to heal themselves, or give you time to run. It is not a form of combat control. Whats more, it is single target...Dark Miasma has the same power in an AoE form.
Force Bubble...This is marginally crowd control, but it isn't letting me immobilize or hold people, so they have no trouble running away if they are being hurt. This can prevent many players from getting in to melee me and anyone near me, but not all. It provides NO defense against ranged attacks, which is the majority of what tends to be used. Yes, it can make life miserable for some tanks and some scrappers, but not even all of them.
Does FF have slows? no.
Does FF have immobilizes? no.
Does FF have holds? no.
Does FF have damaging attacks? no.
Does FF have fears? no.
Does FF have heals? no.
What does FF have? It has bubbles witch add defense to those I put them on. But wait.....just attack me, my minions will soak up that damage WITHOUT applying their defenses, WITHOUT applying their resistances....yes, this makes virtually my entire secondary USELESS.
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
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I'm not asking to "sit there in complete and utter safety laughing your [censored] off at the enemy ". I'm asking that my secondary have SOME EFFECT on the combat. You are traps, you have things you can do that will effect the outcome of the fight....you can fight BACK using your secondary. My secondary is supposed to effect the outcome of a fight by allowing my pets to have increased longevity. THAT is what FF is all about...not hiding in my PFF as you suggest. I don't want to use PFF all the time, and I couldn't even if I did since the nerf. You tell me to run away....if I do that I lose the protection of my pets since they can never keep up with me...so the only real solution you are offering is....if I am attacked, put up PFF and run.
Again...Every other secondary for MMs is useful with regard to bodyguard. The ONLY real purpose of FF is to extend the life expectancy of my groupmates and minions....Bodyguard as it stands will bypass the entire purpose of my secondary.
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
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Whats the problem? Your bubbles do exactly what they've always done... End of story.
Under the VERY situational 'oh crap' BG useage, you face the same penalties that all of do, namely that pets get no def or res mitigation of shared damage... But then BG is saving your bacon where you'd normally be toast. If you need to remain under BG for more than a tiny period, you'd have been long dead anyway.
FF is much more group oriented secondary - and its benefits to group members remain unchanged. If your pets are attacked directly, then your bonuses apply - if *you* are being attacked, and order pets into a BG formation, you're in the same situation as any of us - you have a very short amount of leeway now that you should utilise to stop being attacked. And yes, you still have PFF.
Your choice of secondary makes you automatically more suited to group PvP - BG in this situation gives you enough time for group members to help divert the attention of the attackers.
I suggest you group up more.
Hey um...hope This gets answered.
But is this only while the Henchmen are set to the defensive mode.....or does this also apply to when they are set to passive mode?
The reason i ask....is becasue it doesnt sound to good for only the defensive option since it works the exact same way as aggressive but with a smaller radius....passive at least i could be sure they would be next to me or fairly close and most likely within the radius of it to work.
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Let me point out another flaw in your argument. If you put your pets on defensive and run away... guess what? You are taking your supremecy with you but not your pets. They will stay and fight. In addition consider this one. Your pets are on defensive, you are on a team, one of your teammates gets attacked... your pets run off. I am not sure if this sort of behavior is a bug or not since it seems to happen infrequently but does so more in PvP. How many MMs have been buffing their pets only to have them run off over the horizon because some teammate is getting attacked far away... it has happened enough for me that when I am spawning and buffing in PvP I put my pets on passive or aggressive to avoid the "defensive" behavior which seems to include teammates... and we all know soloing with a MM is suicide in PvP.
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First issue - hit the follow/def button again, and the pets will come running. They'll keep doing that until you get hit - after which you press the button again... rinse and repeat.
I totally agree that the Pet AI has a LOT of work that needs doing. My biggest bugbear with the situation at the moment is the range at which pets will respond to you being attacked whilst under a follow/def stance... The enemy has to be virtually on TOP of you before the pets respond. I'm pretty sure this was set originally to prevent AFK XPing, but could use a big tweak for PvP zones.
Finally, on the PFF nerf - yes, a 2 min cooldown just for MMs sucks - I have a feeling this might have been done *because* of BG, where theoretically it could have enabled MMs to be supertanks (when the pets get low, through up PFF, have the pets healed by team, drop PFF, repeat), but it is odd that this was done now before any kind of player testing has taken place.
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Hey um...hope This gets answered.
But is this only while the Henchmen are set to the defensive mode.....or does this also apply to when they are set to passive mode?
The reason i ask....is becasue it doesnt sound to good for only the defensive option since it works the exact same way as aggressive but with a smaller radius....passive at least i could be sure they would be next to me or fairly close and most likely within the radius of it to work.
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Only whilst in Defensive + Follow mode.
Defensive is nothing like Aggressive. Pets will not automatically engage foes that are not attacking - they will respond to enemies that do attack within a small radius.
This is better than having BG only in Passive mode. If it was restricted to Passive, your Pets would not attack back, meaning you only have your own weapons to fight back with if you want the benefit of Bodyguards (if you were to order your pets to attack, you'd lose the BG bonus).
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Personally, I don't really think the PvP concerns will matter much, since PvP isn't balanced based on one Vs. one. If you have something you are particularly weak to, teamup with someone who can help you out.
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Other players can't really solve the travel issues I have, if they recall me and my pets are in range, my pets will make a B-line to me and generally will either get killed on the way by NPCs, bring NPCs with them, or just be unable to get to me. It's also well known that Group Fly and Team TP are bugged, plus they cost loads of end that MMs don't really have a way of dealing with because most of use try not to take stamina.
Only two ATs can solve my long set up issue, and it's not even a solution, it's just a band-aid as it still takes a long time, longer then any other AT, and costs a boat load of end, which is only slightly remedied by AM or SB.
Bodyguard will only slightly remedy being just obliterated on the PvP, as corrs can't help there, I had a dom last night in PvP against a bunch of Tankers and Blasters, a /cold and a /thermal corr, both putting full shields and frost works on me only made it so blasters were three shotting me instead of two shotting.
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But anyhow, if they decided they wanted to do it, maybe the Devs could make it so:
If the MM is targetted with a TP Foe type power, each Bodyguard has a chance of being picked as the target instead. So, instead of porting you away from your minions, theres a chance they will just snag one of the bodyguards instead.
Just a thought.
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Honestly the issue isn't nerfing TP Foe, or bring our minions to us when we get TP Foed, it's allowing our minions to have the travel ability to reach us in the first place.
Having our minions TP with us would be nice, but I'd much rather that be an unintended side effect of a "pets travel with you period," buff to MMs.
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MMs safety comes from hiding behind pets,..
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For starters. The there's your secondary and your power pools powers. The MM secondaries all have some form of control in them. MMs are the best soloing AT out there in PvE, as they combine god-like safety with very nice firepower.
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Incorrect. FF does not have a form of control. All it has is the ability to extend the life expectancy of my group and minions. It doesn't even protect ME all that much. While all of the other secondaries have control or attacks of some sort, FF does NOT. Bodyguard completely bypasses all protection that I can put on my pets, by channeling the damage directly through me.
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FF actually has some fairly substantial control. People just tend to ignore it for some reason.
Let's look at what it has:
- Knockdown: Force bolt is an awesome power, as I'm sure you know. Naturally, doesn't work against people with knockback protection, but hey, holds don't work on people with hold protection either. Also has a substantial chance of toggle-dropping in the current environment.
- More knockdown: Repulsion field knocks down a lot. And toggle drops too. (Which can help get rid of pesky anti-knockdown powers.)
- Disorient: Repulsion bomb does disorient. (sometimes?) in addition to being a brutally efficient toggle dropper. In addition to doing knockdown.
- Repel: Force bubble is SCARY for people who don't have KB protection. You can completely negate entire melee classes, if they haven't taken acrobatics. (Flame tanks and ninja stalkers, for example.)
- Phase: Detention field is an UNRESISTABLE control. "Poof, you're out of the fight for 10 seconds". The ONLY way to resist it is to not get hit by it. If you can land it as a hit (and it has decent built-in accuracy) then they don't get to fight back for a while. Of course, you don't get to hurt them during this time, but this is still an amazing tool for removing a key member of an opponent team. (For example, detention field the ice/em blaster while you take down their healer.) (Cutie Ka and Princess doll would be such a team on Justice, so I know you've seen them.)
In short: Force field has plenty of control, in addition to its formidable defense ability.
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I do a lot of PvP missions, as those are the best xp bang for your time bucks. Scrappers and brutes are about kneck-to-kneck the fastest soloers, but they can have problems with different bosses, depending on their build. MMs, otoh, are setup-time slower, and can deal with bosses in pretty much absolute safety. Even if it's a very tough boss, you can kill and run, come back, and take care of it. Only controllers match that safety, but they lack the firepower.
-Jeff
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You do a lot of missions...but how much exp do you have in PvP?
I PvP a LOT...more than any other MM on my entire server. I think I have a right to be more than slightly upset by the fact that my entire secondary is going to be bypassed by players and totally ignored in PvP.
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
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I dunno, I pvp with my MM a lot on Justice as well. Although you may have me lately, since I've been neglecting my "make people respect masterminds in PvP" crusade in favor of trying to level up my stalker in time for I7. I play a /traps MM myself in PvP, so I don't have your exact experiences, but I know the FF set pretty well (from my 50 controller) and I PvP enough with my Mastermind to feel like I'm at least qualified to comment here:
Your secondary is hardly going to be "completely bypassed by players," and it won't be "ignored in pvp" except by people who don't know what it does.
Yes, your secondary can be partially bypassed by the bodyguard damage. (Welcome to the club!) It's hardly complete though, since if you have dispersion bubble up, they still have to hit you through that. (Yes, I know it's not as protected as the bots, with dispersion bubble + single target bubbles, but it's still a whole lot better than nothing.)
And, of course, you obviously have the option of going into PFF mode, and becoming super-hard to hit. (Although less frequently thanks to the recent nerf.) (Since according to Castle, PFF + bodyguard as it was turned out to be overpoweringly good.)
And again, you still have all the (formidable) control options in force fields to fall back on, which you now have more time to use, even outside of PFF, thanks to bodyguard. (x4 as much time, most likely.)
As a /FF, you're STILL going to be one of the hardest to kill MMs around, I think. You can just hide in PFF, and attack. Assuming you don't get one-shotted through it, (i. e. assasin struck) they'll probalby have to toggle-drop you to kill you. At which point, when they finally DO toggle-drop your PFF, you suddenly start taking 25% normal damage, as bodyguard kicks in.
Don't think of it as canceling each other out, think of bodyguard as a 2nd layer of defenses after they peel off your first. It's like insurance!
(As an asside, I feel like losing minions left and right is just par for the course here. About time they started dying before the MM. Keeping your minions alive should not be the highest priority. Keeping the mastermind alive should be. Minions are easy to resummon. Mid-fight, if need be. (Since they'll bodyguard just as well, even unupgraded.))
Anyway, I'm starting to ramble, so I'll cut this off here. But I think your predictions of doom (or at least of not getting anything good out of it) are a bit unrealistic. It definitely increases the survivability of EVERY mastermind considerably, in PvP.
P. S., do we know for sure that PFF/Invis/Phase shift/etc cut off bodyguard? We know that it cuts off supremacy, but do we know for certain (i. e. red name) that it cuts off bodyguard? We know that (As per Positron) you have to be within "Supremacy range". We've been assuming that it's just tied in to supremacy, and so would get cut off like most PBAoE powers. But what if it's a separate PBAoE power on each minion instead? Which just happens to have the same range as supremacy? Unless a red name has commented on it, I'm not sure I'd completely discount the possibility of bodyguard working while inside of PFF. Of course I wouldn't count on it, either. But it remains a possibility. And of course, if they did let it work through PFF, then FFs would mitigate it at least as much as any other set. (More than most, in fact.) Random musings...
For the record I PvP a couple hours a week. My MM is only 30, so I haven't had much experience with him, but of the 3 times I brought him into PvP (not running missions), twice I got 6k bounty in under an hour. Both times were part of reasonably sized zergs.
It's fascinating to me when I read complaints about how helpless MMs are w/o their pets. I have none of my personal attacks, but with traps, teleport, and phase shift I'm hardly helpless.
If I ever max out my MM, I think i'm going trick arrow next - I see a lot of possibility in that set.
-Jeff
A good analysis of the Force Field Secondary set (one I was going to make myself). The thing is, most MMs who build for PvP forget that, like you said:
Repulsion Bomb and ForceBolt: {edit}Both are{/edit}KB + good detoggler {edit} and RB has a decent Stun (Disorient){/edit}
Force Bubble: Keeps away anyone without significant Repulsion (NOT Knock Back) protection. This means only two builds (*/EnergyAura Brutes/Stalkers) can reliably bypass this. A significant ranged striker (including BU + reds for Claws/Spines people) can bypass this, however.
Repulsion Field: EXCELLENT Detoggler. Pulses 4 times per SECOND. On average, an enemy will lose 3 toggles every five seconds, at the least. The added Knock Down is a great soft control.
Detention Field: Slot for acc. Then prepare.
Between all of that, a FF MM who wants to PvP can certainly build a decent PvP build (but will likely need Stamina...but then, don't most MMs take it?), and TP Foe antics aren't reliable if Force Bubble is up (you Repel enemies before they get to attack, buying time, if nothing else). Also, Force Bubble and Repulsion Field allow careful use of terrain: non-TPers can be trapped. This probably belongs in a PvP discussion thread, but I'm posting it here to show the people complaining about FF and Bodyguard (I hate the PFF nerf too, so be quiet) aren't looking at all of their options.
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I'm not asking to "sit there in complete and utter safety laughing your [censored] off at the enemy ". I'm asking that my secondary have SOME EFFECT on the combat. You are traps, you have things you can do that will effect the outcome of the fight....you can fight BACK using your secondary. My secondary is supposed to effect the outcome of a fight by allowing my pets to have increased longevity. THAT is what FF is all about...not hiding in my PFF as you suggest. I don't want to use PFF all the time, and I couldn't even if I did since the nerf. You tell me to run away....if I do that I lose the protection of my pets since they can never keep up with me...so the only real solution you are offering is....if I am attacked, put up PFF and run.
Again...Every other secondary for MMs is useful with regard to bodyguard. The ONLY real purpose of FF is to extend the life expectancy of my groupmates and minions....Bodyguard as it stands will bypass the entire purpose of my secondary.
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
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Whats the problem? Your bubbles do exactly what they've always done... End of story.
Under the VERY situational 'oh crap' BG useage, you face the same penalties that all of do, namely that pets get no def or res mitigation of shared damage... But then BG is saving your bacon where you'd normally be toast. If you need to remain under BG for more than a tiny period, you'd have been long dead anyway.
FF is much more group oriented secondary - and its benefits to group members remain unchanged. If your pets are attacked directly, then your bonuses apply - if *you* are being attacked, and order pets into a BG formation, you're in the same situation as any of us - you have a very short amount of leeway now that you should utilise to stop being attacked. And yes, you still have PFF.
Your choice of secondary makes you automatically more suited to group PvP - BG in this situation gives you enough time for group members to help divert the attention of the attackers.
I suggest you group up more.
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You are correct in the fact that minions of ALL MMs have their resistance and defenses ignored. What you are blindly overlooking is the fact that other MM secondary sets provide powers that can be used during that combat, either to fight back or to keep yourself and your pets healed. FF doesn't have the offense, or the healing the other sets provide. The one thing it is SUPPOSED to provide is defense, and now it doesn't even do that. So I'm not exactly in the same situation, am I?
As for your comment about getting other group members...yes, I'll definately be doing that...but it doesn't change the inequity of FF with regard to BG as it is currently being defined, does it?
Please address the point, don't try to side track it.
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
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You are correct in the fact that minions of ALL MMs have their resistance and defenses ignored. What you are blindly overlooking is the fact that other MM secondary sets provide powers that can be used during that combat, either to fight back or to keep yourself and your pets healed. FF doesn't have the offense, or the healing the other sets provide. The one thing it is SUPPOSED to provide is defense, and now it doesn't even do that. So I'm not exactly in the same situation, am I?
As for your comment about getting other group members...yes, I'll definately be doing that...but it doesn't change the inequity of FF with regard to BG as it is currently being defined, does it?
Please address the point, don't try to side track it.
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
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I think the previous few posters have made the point quite nicely actually - you have plenty you can be doing (in the way of soft controls) to hold up the enemy for the (very) short period you should be relying on BG.
so you're saying we get 3 powers from our secondary that are decent in pvp?
too bad detention field is hated by 99% of the population
and repulsion bomb sounds too funky for most people to even try it out (including me), plus toggle drops are getting nerfed in i7
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A good analysis of the Force Field Secondary set (one I was going to make myself). The thing is, most MMs who build for PvP forget that, like you said:
Repulsion Bomb and ForceBolt: {edit}Both are{/edit}KB + good detoggler {edit} and RB has a decent Stun (Disorient){/edit}
Force Bubble: Keeps away anyone without significant Repulsion (NOT Knock Back) protection. This means only two builds (*/EnergyAura Brutes/Stalkers) can reliably bypass this. A significant ranged striker (including BU + reds for Claws/Spines people) can bypass this, however.
Repulsion Field: EXCELLENT Detoggler. Pulses 4 times per SECOND. On average, an enemy will lose 3 toggles every five seconds, at the least. The added Knock Down is a great soft control.
Detention Field: Slot for acc. Then prepare.
Between all of that, a FF MM who wants to PvP can certainly build a decent PvP build (but will likely need Stamina...but then, don't most MMs take it?), and TP Foe antics aren't reliable if Force Bubble is up (you Repel enemies before they get to attack, buying time, if nothing else). Also, Force Bubble and Repulsion Field allow careful use of terrain: non-TPers can be trapped. This probably belongs in a PvP discussion thread, but I'm posting it here to show the people complaining about FF and Bodyguard (I hate the PFF nerf too, so be quiet) aren't looking at all of their options.
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My primary is now a EM/Ninj stalker. I was able to hit a merc/ff MM while his force bubble was up with Energy transfer which stunned him. It was not easy and involved a lot of bouncing in and out.
The same MM was tp'd away from his pets by a stormie more than 4 times... I stopped counting. Force Bubble + Dispersion field did not seem to be a problem for tp foe.
No, most MMs don't take stamina. Unless you are dark or trick arrow you are not likely to need stamina... at least not to the point that it is worth the investment.
Repulsion field does detoggle... but you have to be right on the person for it to do so. I did an experiment with a bubbler where marked out how close it took for my toggles to get dropped. It was in AS range. Then we tested a run-by AS where he ran by me and I AS'd him as he passed. I was able to hit him with AS. That type of AS is difficult to perform though and only likely to happen a few times in any night of PvP.
Most PvP builds have Acro and it keeps you from being knocked back quite nicely. If Nullifiers grenades aren't going to knock me down I seriously doubt that a bubbler's force bubble or repulsion field is going to. It has yet to do so.
All that being said, force bubble is still the best in the set. Personal Forcefield is something any bubbler should think of trading in.
We can talk all day about FF as a powerset but the real issue here is if the Body Guard is a "fix" for the MM in PvP and I personally feel it is not. Pets in defensive mode run off... if attacked they follow the attacker... well at least Ninjas do. The passive command is the best way to bring them back to you. Defensive is also not ideal when traveling.
As a MM I had ninjas/FF which is a bad combo however I was able to do just fine in PvP in Siren's call. Warburg as well to a lesser degree since there I have to contend with stalkers as well. I am not happy with Body Guard but I guess any improvement is better than none.. although this is pretty close to the "none" category. As a stalker I can see a thousand holes in it and how to get around it.
Basically with Body Guard a MM will have to be careful of going on the offensive ever. Does Body Guard make bubbles worthless? Not so sure about that. All you have to do to keep out of Body Guard mode is to not go in it. It sounds like it will be something you have to explicitly activate.
Body Guard is not what killed bubbles, it was the devs and their endless nerfs of the powerset. Now they are even getting blatant with their bias and nerfing MMs(Villian ATs) in particular. Basically the claim they made that they were going to "strengthen" the ATs was a lie. Gimpy half measures won't cut it it when you hand it out with a whole lot of nerfs attached... as is bodyguard. Personally I am dreading I7.
how is that going to help against all the blappers in SC or warburg