[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What makes Statesman or Recluse Incarnates? What separates a Tank Incarnate from a Tank?
[/ QUOTE ]
I recommend reading up on their history, Statesman and Lord Recluse I mean. I recommend picking up the novel "Web of Arachnos" which pretty much covers that history - should be available in your book stores.
Anyway, to give you a summary (fyi, their story is a bit hazy to me now, pardon me if I may present you with some small minor errors in detail in their story): Statesman and Lord Recluse were once pals, normal people, wanted to look for this mythical island. They found the island, which is basically the Well of Furies, and there, they found the Fountain of Zeus. By drinking out of the Fountain of Zeus, Statesman was reincarnated into Zeus, so he became a demi-god - that would explain Statesman being a Tanker having Lightning powers. Lord Recluse drank from it too and was reincarnated as Tartarus (yes, it's a place in Hades but Tartarus in some mythos is portrayed as a god.) There's some other stuff in there about both of them opening Pandora's Box, thus unleashing the Golden Age of Heroes (and apparently villains) but I'm gonna need to pull the book out for that and I'm not sure where it is. Again, I recommend picking up the book "Web of Arachnos" which talks about their history.
So overall, an Incarnate means you're reincarnated with or to someone.
Now, don't think that just because Statesman and Lord Recluse were reincarnated into demi-gods or personified, that we'll be able to do that too. Remember, they play the lead roles in this game - er, it's story anyway - so we can't be more powerful than they are.
Also note that it's still unknown what the devs are gonna do with the Incarnates.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I've read the book. I think it was a great book. Anyway, I never got that they were reincarnates. That helps. So, now they just have to figure out a way to let any number of people be an incarnate of any number of things...that might prove to be difficult.
[/ QUOTE ]
There are a few things or.. possibilites:
The Incarnates has always been thought of as an EAT, which means a seperate EAT, not a fusion like Statesman (Tanker+Incarnate) and Lord Recluse (MM+Incarnate). So if it were to be seperate, it could either be a whole new.. thing. Like from the beginning, you're able to pick which being you'd be reincarnated with.
Another possibility is the fusion - one solution for that is probably like the Patron system, where you pick one and you're stuck with them from lvl 41-50.
All in all, I do hope that it's a seperate EAT. I don't think anyone should expect them to be 'god-mode' EATs (aka more powerful than other ATs) but I think it would be interesting to see what the devs have come up with. Some speculate that the Incarnates are the EAT coming in the expansion box - I'd rather see the Coralax but.. we'll see.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, I just have to say wow. I don't know how long you've or anyone else has been browsing the forums, reading the interview or whatnot, but I can't imagine how much has been going into it. Kudos to you, because I don't have the time or effort.
Sometimes, I think it's more fun to think about what the possibilities are that are coming out than to actually get them. My antipation for the Kheldians totally overwhelmed how I actually felt when I got them. I just hope that whatever the new archetypes are, they won't disappoint. I really hope that it's like what I read in an interview, that they're going to not just slap some powers together and call it an EAT. I hope they come up with something that combines ATs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, combine is a really strong word. Sometimes it almost isn't fair. In some cases, it can be picked or not picked over certain ATs, just like how some Kheldians complain about getting kicked off the team because another AT can do their job better. Anyway, to me, Epic ATs mean being able to join an Epic story, so I am looking forward to.. unique power sets rather than a combo of two or more, but all in all, the best part of being able to play one is to be part of their story - but ofcourse I'm mostly referring to the Coralax which I'm just very excited about. The Avilans and the Blood of the Black Stream as well.
As far as dev quotes, I just check the Dev Digest and interviews don't really go unnoticed around here in the forums. Once news hit that there's an interview, it'll be the talk of the day. But thanks though. 
[/ QUOTE ] Only one problem with combining AT for incarnates. Wouldn't that mean you could have incarnate kheldians,Avilans,Coralax,BotBS?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not if they're not allowed to, just like how the Kheldians can't access Ancillary powers.
OK, this has been kinda bugging me. Say they add an Incarnate type (or any other powerful EAT), what likelyhood would it be for the type to be able to actually take on one of the signature heroes/villains one-on-one. I understand the "epicness" of the storyline for the Peacebringers, but, call me greedy, but I want more, or at least different(and more). Have a quite decent fight, albeit long lasting(I would hope), battle against Xxxxx Archetype and say, Statesman. Or even Statesman and pals. Or even one on one against an AV. I understand the impact it would have on the game, being that very few people in the PvP zones could actually touch you(unless it would be a toggle power that essentially boots you to the equivalent of a lvl 54, which I believe is what the signature heroes/villains are), but it's hard to imagine that a storyline such as CoX would show that (if you've read the books), lowly heroes like Positron and Synapse, and even someone without even actual powers(Manticore) could attain the power enough to fend off many many level 50 villains. If these were actual events(which yes, I know, there are a LOT of non-realistic things happening in the game), then if a stalker were able to get an AS off on Manticore, it would kill him. He's really just the CoH's Batman. So, are we ever going to see any attainment of that kind that the players can achieve? Does this make any sense to anyone else? (As my brain is in overdrive right now, due to lack of sleep)
First of all, let's analyze a few of your points:
[ QUOTE ]
lvl 54, which I believe is what the signature heroes/villains are
[/ QUOTE ]
Not entirely true. There are plenty of lvl 54 heroes, true. Most heroes are also at least lvl 50, though there are plenty that you'll fight that are just 50 even. Then again, I've got a lvl 20 something Back Alley Brawler. The point?
Heroes, just like ALL NPC ENEMIES have their level, in some way or another, adjusted to YOUR level. The only thing close to an exception to this, is the Freedom Phalanx in the Lord Recluse SF. Which brings me to my next point...
[ QUOTE ]
Or even one on one against an AV.
[/ QUOTE ]
In the strictest sense, this will NEVER be allowed...again...certain AT's used to be able to solo AVs. That being said, the developers have said, over and over again, NO ONE is meant to be able to solo an AV. Soloing an EB even is meant to be a 'no-no' not so much in the sense that you can't as you [/i]shouldn't hope to be able to[/i].
Finally, let's just take a general look at your assumptions, in trying to answer your question...
You assume that the signature characters power level is comparable to ours. This is fundamentally flawed. If you really look at States and Recluse, in game, are they THAT much more powerful then they should be, compared to their counterparts? I say no. More powerful? Surely, but not that much more. Also keep in mind, that they're the 2 'top-dogs' of their factions. Posi, Manticore, Ghost Widow, Black Scorpion, et al...they're 2nd tier. "B-String" compared to States and Recluse, if you will.
So, even assuming you could EVER attain the power of a Freedom Phalanx member, States would still be out of your realm of power.
MORE to the point, however, Epic AT's are not meant to be more powerful then regular AT's. I think the devs are almost shooting themselves in the foot by naming States and Recluse as an EAT that players can, someday, make themselves. It gives people the illusion that someday they can make a character that rivals them for power.
Incarnates, when they come, will almost certainly not be more powerful than any other AT just like Kheldians aren't. If played right, they may, quite likely, be able to do things others can't, and survive situations no one else can, but that can be attributed more to advanced play techniques then a higher level of power.
One more time, to reiterate - EAT's - Incarnates included - are NOT meant to be more powerful than any regular AT. They simply require an "Epic" playstyle, and in return, get to be 'in' on "Epic" level plots.
If you're asking for a powerful Archetype, that will never happend. If it can trump any Arachetype, it will never happend for the reason of balance. Now, as for Epic Archetypes, that may be an exception, but it wouldn't be a drastic change. I'm referring to the Kheldians having a mixture of powers, being diverse in their class - making it seem like they're weaker because "this class can do a Kheldians job better", etc.
I assume we'll be given new classes, something new, like the Mastermind and the Stalker in addition to Blast, Control, Support, Tank, and Melee. But as far as one that's more powerful than the other ATs, no, not even an EAT.
Story-wise, it probably doesn't make sense, but we're in the game now. Certain enemies have to be too powerful for 1 vs 1 combat for the game. With a story, ofcourse 1 vs 1 is very easy to believe, but game mechanics can't really have that becase.. well.. this is the game.
Also, just to remind everyone, the devs still hasn't revealed what they're going to do with the Incarnates yet. It will most likely be introduced to us as full-fledged Incarnates and not a combo like Statesman or Lord Recluse being part Incarnates only.
To both Jannus and Oceanborn:
I figured as much, but I guess there was just some hope that it might eventually happen.
Heh, well, as awesome as that might be, unfortunately that can ruin the balance, so yeah. But the Incarnates still might be that new AT you're looking for, you never know.
Anyway, I decided to drop by my pool, and look who I found hanging out with me:
The place
The company
First, they added the pool, then they made it so you would look like you're swimming, now they added this (lvl 14) Red Coralax-Hybrid drinking coffee. Are the devs hinting something? 
That's awesome!
I still haven't dropped by that pool yet...much as I'd like to. I just haven't gotten my lvl 39 MM that extra level or two he needs. It just got stale playing a MM...
Still, though, I'm tempted. He's my highest level character ever...I've never had a 50, and he's by far my closest...I'm just to hooked on my Ice/Cold Corr right now, though...
I suggest dropping by, you won't get killed. If you're lucky you might see him. When I logged on again, there was a Blue Coralax-Hybrid in his place.
It's just a small pool (you can't miss it) on the NW side of Spider City (the Grandville walls.) You can't miss it because it's the only *clear* water there. The rest of the water (even the ocean) is polluted.
Looked for about 30 minutes, couldn't find it, gave up.
I'm looking forward to have the interest to level up my MM though, so I can see it!
Or maybe just the long haul in leveling up my lvl 14 Corr...either way...
Just don't get your hopes up, it's just a small pool with 1 Coralax-Hybrid in it. Although, I find it weird that they ask how I found them there.. that's a new text.
This is probably totally old news, but it's so deviously simple, maybe no one else thought to look, or at least report it, yet...
You know...in the character creator, in CoV...how there's a space below all 5 ATs, where Peacebringer, and Warshade would go, if you were creating a hero? Has anyone else noticed that if you mouse-hover over it, it says the same "This is an Epic Archetype. This Archetype is unlocked by getting one character up to level 50."?
Again, I'm sure that someone else must've noticed this by now, right? Right??
I don't see it. Although, it's nothing. It probably just got copied over from CoH, just like a villain who reaches 50 sometimes get the "you unlocked an EAT" message.
[ QUOTE ]
One more time, to reiterate - EAT's - Incarnates included - are NOT meant to be more powerful than any regular AT. They simply require an "Epic" playstyle, and in return, get to be 'in' on "Epic" level plots.
[/ QUOTE ]
I too have a hard time imagining how they would balance an Uber AT. From a PvE perspective, I can almost imagine it by setting you at a perma-higher difficulty setting. Just like simply having an Kheld on your team spawns a Void Hunter, having an Incarnate could spawn a set of 3 higher level monsters for every spawn. Or whatever. But that would only work in instances. PvP would instantly become problematic, as well out "shared" PvE (like street-hunting).
But the problem of "But States is an incarnate" is solvable by suggesting that States and Recluse were lords of their pantheons. You're merely members. Naturally, the heir to Aphrodite or Demeter won't compare to the towering might of Zues.
Still, they do have a "Uber" vibe going on with them. I wonder how the Devs will resolve that, and how the Devs will cover their powers in a way made necessary by their design. I can see the need for BotBS because I can't make shapeshifters with the current power-sets. I can see the need for Khelds for a similar reason. I can see the need for Coralax because it's hard to build aquatic characters under the current system (but one could create a Swimming Power Pool to tackle that problem... though there's no reason you couldn't do both).
But what do the Incarnates do that normal heroes and villains can't? Aphrodite? Mind Control/Empathy controller. Loki? Illusion/Kinetic Controller. Geb? Dark/Stone Brute (that's how one of my friends did him, anyway).
I don't see where we need a unique Archtype to cover the godly characters. Story's nice, yes, but there needs to be mechanical, in-game difference, otherwise why bother? I'm curious to see how they handle it.
Oh, and I thought I'd post a picture of the Eye of Horus Oil Spill you guys were talking about before:
The Oil Spill
For reference
I just saw it for myself and thought I would share 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see where we need a unique Archtype to cover the godly characters. Story's nice, yes, but there needs to be mechanical, in-game difference, otherwise why bother? I'm curious to see how they handle it.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's really no story yet though, lol.
But think of it this way, while Epic Archetypes are known for new powers, new animation, concepts, etc. overall, it's a chance for you to play a role in an epic story. Sure we've seen some concepts like Statesman and Lord Recluse, but we still have yet to find out about their story, what they're about, and who they are. But anyway, just to bog down the "godly" status, I have a couple of things:
From the Paragon Times, July 15, 2005: Beyond Contact: Azuria and MAGI:
[ QUOTE ]
Much of what we know remains obscure, to be sure, and highly secretthose who oppose us would very much like to know the extent of our knowledgebut the short version is that we are facing nature spirits who, in the earliest periods of human existence, evolved beyond control of the elements and became gods who needed worship and devotion from mortals.
[/ QUOTE ]
And this story arc - guess who this is:
Guess
Guess
Give up? it's the goddess Hequat, of the Mu people 
. Which sort of demotes them from the 'almighty' rank, but they're still gods. As far as the Incarnates, the devs can do anything with it as far as what the concept is. I mean, they could change the theme from gods to something lower in rank.
Well, overall, my point is, let's just wait for their story to come out before we think poorly or highly of them. I know it's irritating that we can't put them in a certain category yet, but we'll see soon.
[ QUOTE ]
But what do the Incarnates do that normal heroes and villains can't? Aphrodite? Mind Control/Empathy controller. Loki? Illusion/Kinetic Controller. Geb? Dark/Stone Brute (that's how one of my friends did him, anyway).
[/ QUOTE ]
Although, yenno the Kheldians' powers can be substituted by other AT's powers as well. 
Nice screenshots btw.
[ QUOTE ]
Although, yenno the Kheldians' powers can be substituted by other AT's powers as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, they can't. No other AT can shape-shift. Period. You can't play a blaster that suddenly tanks for people. You can't do it. That's rather my point. If a new AT is "Tankers with a unique powerset that isn't all that different from what you already had," it isn't really an epic AT, cool story or no.
[ QUOTE ]
Well, overall, my point is, let's just wait for their story to come out before we think poorly or highly of them. I know it's irritating that we can't put them in a certain category yet, but we'll see soon.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're taking my comment that "I don't see how they'll do it" as "I don't like them."
It's actually "I have no idea how they'll make this AT unique, and I'm curious how they'll do it." It's poorly stated, and for that I apologize, but that's the thrust of my ponderings.
I'm a mechanic monkey. I like systems and seeing how they integrate. Cryptic is really good with unique takes on how systems impact story and vica versa.
It's not enough for Khelds to have a unique story. They need a unique style of play too. The same goes for Incarnates, or any other EAT. I'm not saying that Incarnates DON'T have this. I'm perfectly confident they WILL have it.
I just have no idea HOW they'll do it.
You CAN make gods with current ATs. You can also make aliens. But you can't make Khelds because you can't shape shift, and you can't make Incarnates because... *fill in the blank*
I wanna know what that blank will be. That's what has me sitting on the edge of my seat.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, they can't. No other AT can shape-shift. Period. You can't play a blaster that suddenly tanks for people. You can't do it. That's rather my point. If a new AT is "Tankers with a unique powerset that isn't all that different from what you already had," it isn't really an epic AT, cool story or no.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah I understand, although I was talking about how there were complaints from Kheldians about being not picked over certain ATs because another AT can do their job better. For example, why choose a Kheldian when you can get a Blaster and a Tanker or a Controller?
That's what I meant, you can substitute other normal ATs who are more effective instead of a Kheldian who are combination of these things. This topic just stuck to my mind because I remember reading a long thread about this same topic in the Kheldians' section, lol.
[ QUOTE ]
I wanna know what that blank will be.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, I sure can't wait - although the Incarnates are last EAT I'd like to see, lol.
i think im going to go attempt to find that "deep pool" on my highest villain (33 brute) =P
good discussion everyone.
please please please i dont want to get an EAT based on somthing as irrelevant as badges. Its bad enough that i have to go through all this stuff to obtain accolades but if i have to collect badges to get an EAT i cant imagin how hard it must be.
Just when im close to 50 on CoV and think ill be first in line for an EAT i find out that thats not the requirement.
Woah woah slow down.. where does it say that badges will be the req for unlocking an EAT?
All trials/SF give a badge after completing them. The devs have said that they will no longer make getting to level 50 a requirement for getting any more Epic ATs. Most Future Epic ATs will probably be awarded through a trial/SF. The servers need a way to track who has earned an Epic AT. Therefore, badges are the easiest way to track down who can access an Epic AT.
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
[ QUOTE ]
please please please i dont want to get an EAT based on somthing as irrelevant as badges. Its bad enough that i have to go through all this stuff to obtain accolades but if i have to collect badges to get an EAT i cant imagin how hard it must be.
Just when im close to 50 on CoV and think ill be first in line for an EAT i find out that thats not the requirement.
[/ QUOTE ]
Accolades are different. And depending on what the requirements are, it's not really that hard. If it's just accomplishent and exploration badge, that would be the best thing ever.
But all in all, the devs never said anything about badges. They have mentioned TFs/Trials, but never badges. It's a good idea though.
Anyway, as far as lvl 50 being fair, think of it this way. If you just started playing CoV, and wanted to play an Epic Archetype instead of the other ATs, would you level some AT you don't really want for months and on to get to 50 just to play that EAT? That would cause most players to get bored of the game easily and leave, not to mention that some players that have been here since the game (CoH) opened still doesn't have a lvl 50, therefore not being able to play a Kheldian.
lol it didnt. I was just taking a wild guess. But there cant be that many different possibilities since there wont be the lvl 50 requirement.
Whats left?
I mean some badges are used to get accolades so they would really have to turn it up if the badges were used to get an EAT.
And if their thinking about throwing in some kind of strike force, what is harder than the LRSF?
I have no idea what will be the requirment to get a new EAT but it will have to be something totally new.
[ QUOTE ]
please please please i dont want to get an EAT based on somthing as irrelevant as badges. Its bad enough that i have to go through all this stuff to obtain accolades but if i have to collect badges to get an EAT i cant imagin how hard it must be.
Just when im close to 50 on CoV and think ill be first in line for an EAT i find out that thats not the requirement.
[/ QUOTE ]
The devs said a long, long, time ago that using the Level 50 requirment for an EAT wasn't something they were going to do again.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
[ QUOTE ]
The devs said a long, long, time ago that using the Level 50 requirment for an EAT wasn't something they were going to do again.
[/ QUOTE ]
This has already been discussed at length in this thread, so I'm not going to go into huge detail. I just wanted to point out that technically all the Devs have said is that they're not using the lvl 50 requirement to unlock any NEW EAT's. Hence, being that Warshades (And possibly some other form of Kheldian, who knows?) will be unlockable with I8, they may be the exception to that rule, and be unlocked by getting to lvl 50, as they're not a NEW EAT, but just a ported one.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What makes Statesman or Recluse Incarnates? What separates a Tank Incarnate from a Tank?
[/ QUOTE ]
I recommend reading up on their history, Statesman and Lord Recluse I mean. I recommend picking up the novel "Web of Arachnos" which pretty much covers that history - should be available in your book stores.
Anyway, to give you a summary (fyi, their story is a bit hazy to me now, pardon me if I may present you with some small minor errors in detail in their story): Statesman and Lord Recluse were once pals, normal people, wanted to look for this mythical island. They found the island, which is basically the Well of Furies, and there, they found the Fountain of Zeus. By drinking out of the Fountain of Zeus, Statesman was reincarnated into Zeus, so he became a demi-god - that would explain Statesman being a Tanker having Lightning powers. Lord Recluse drank from it too and was reincarnated as Tartarus (yes, it's a place in Hades but Tartarus in some mythos is portrayed as a god.) There's some other stuff in there about both of them opening Pandora's Box, thus unleashing the Golden Age of Heroes (and apparently villains) but I'm gonna need to pull the book out for that and I'm not sure where it is. Again, I recommend picking up the book "Web of Arachnos" which talks about their history.
So overall, an Incarnate means you're reincarnated with or to someone.
Now, don't think that just because Statesman and Lord Recluse were reincarnated into demi-gods or personified, that we'll be able to do that too. Remember, they play the lead roles in this game - er, it's story anyway - so we can't be more powerful than they are.
Also note that it's still unknown what the devs are gonna do with the Incarnates.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I've read the book. I think it was a great book. Anyway, I never got that they were reincarnates. That helps. So, now they just have to figure out a way to let any number of people be an incarnate of any number of things...that might prove to be difficult.
[/ QUOTE ]
There are a few things or.. possibilites:
The Incarnates has always been thought of as an EAT, which means a seperate EAT, not a fusion like Statesman (Tanker+Incarnate) and Lord Recluse (MM+Incarnate). So if it were to be seperate, it could either be a whole new.. thing. Like from the beginning, you're able to pick which being you'd be reincarnated with.
Another possibility is the fusion - one solution for that is probably like the Patron system, where you pick one and you're stuck with them from lvl 41-50.
All in all, I do hope that it's a seperate EAT. I don't think anyone should expect them to be 'god-mode' EATs (aka more powerful than other ATs) but I think it would be interesting to see what the devs have come up with. Some speculate that the Incarnates are the EAT coming in the expansion box - I'd rather see the Coralax but.. we'll see.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, I just have to say wow. I don't know how long you've or anyone else has been browsing the forums, reading the interview or whatnot, but I can't imagine how much has been going into it. Kudos to you, because I don't have the time or effort.
Sometimes, I think it's more fun to think about what the possibilities are that are coming out than to actually get them. My antipation for the Kheldians totally overwhelmed how I actually felt when I got them. I just hope that whatever the new archetypes are, they won't disappoint. I really hope that it's like what I read in an interview, that they're going to not just slap some powers together and call it an EAT. I hope they come up with something that combines ATs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, combine is a really strong word. Sometimes it almost isn't fair. In some cases, it can be picked or not picked over certain ATs, just like how some Kheldians complain about getting kicked off the team because another AT can do their job better. Anyway, to me, Epic ATs mean being able to join an Epic story, so I am looking forward to.. unique power sets rather than a combo of two or more, but all in all, the best part of being able to play one is to be part of their story - but ofcourse I'm mostly referring to the Coralax which I'm just very excited about. The Avilans and the Blood of the Black Stream as well.
As far as dev quotes, I just check the Dev Digest and interviews don't really go unnoticed around here in the forums. Once news hit that there's an interview, it'll be the talk of the day. But thanks though.
[/ QUOTE ] Only one problem with combining AT for incarnates. Wouldn't that mean you could have incarnate kheldians,Avilans,Coralax,BotBS?