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Hehe... if the arena actually had a good user interface you'd know this is available now. Heroes and villains can use the arena together.
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Actually, I don't use the arena much because I'm not looking for a fair fight most of the time. I want to sneak up on people unawares, or hunt single villians with groups. I only use the arena when I want to battle it out with my friends or test powers.
I agree that the interface is a bit clunky, but therein lies the choice. Put up with a little bit of clunkyness in the arena interface, or police greifers in an open PvP zone. I think I would choose the former if it were my decision.
Thanks for the information though. I've been wanting to see how my brute stacks up against my wife's scrapper for a while now...
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One thing I am curious about, though, is why they just don't remove xp and debt in the PvP zones.
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Because it's part of the game. In particular it's part of Siren's Call. In the other PvP zones the NPCs aren't such a big deal. Siren's Call (at least on Champion) is the most popular PvP zone. So why would they change it? From the Dev's point of view it's the one that seems to be working the best.
Debt really isn't that big a deal, you work it off pretty quickly in PvE, so I don't understand what all the complaining is about.
Fight Club is an effort by players to impose rules that aren't supported by the game itself. As such it needs to be policed by players, you can't expect the Developers to do it.
If people are doing something the Devs disapprove of, they will change the game to prevent it. From they're point of view, any other ruling than the one Cuppa has give us would be a nightmare to implement.
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I agree with all that, but don't see what it's supposed to be saying that hasn't been said.
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If you can level your toon in the zone, that's a reward. You can die and receive debt in that zone too. That's the risk. Can't have one without the other.
Make better sense why now?
It's an open PvP zone. How many times will this have to be repeated, by how many Heroes, Villains, and Dev's before people actually listen.
If you don't want to deal with it don't go there.
If you want to have your safe happy fun time, stay in PvE.
If you want a safe happy fun time against other players in a pre-arranged meeting, go to the arena, or defeat the people attacking you in the PvP zone.
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One thing I am curious about, though, is why they just don't remove xp and debt in the PvP zones.
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Because it's part of the game. In particular it's part of Siren's Call. In the other PvP zones the NPCs aren't such a big deal. Siren's Call (at least on Champion) is the most popular PvP zone. So why would they change it? From the Dev's point of view it's the one that seems to be working the best.
Debt really isn't that big a deal, you work it off pretty quickly in PvE, so I don't understand what all the complaining is about.
Fight Club is an effort by players to impose rules that aren't supported by the game itself. As such it needs to be policed by players, you can't expect the Developers to do it.
If people are doing something the Devs disapprove of, they will change the game to prevent it. From they're point of view, any other ruling than the one Cuppa has give us would be a nightmare to implement.
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I agree with all that, but don't see what it's supposed to be saying that hasn't been said.
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If you can level your toon in the zone, that's a reward. You can die and receive debt in that zone too. That's the risk. Can't have one without the other.
Make better sense why now?
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Hence the original though, eliminate them both. Eliminate the risk and reward. It's not perfect, of course, but I think it's telling the amount of people willing to come to the thread and complain about PvP causing debt and then not comment at all should the xp portion of the equation be taken away.
To compensate for the potential debt to be had, the missions in the zone and the mobs give higher than normal xp return. I don't see this aspect changing.
I guess I wasn't being clear.
I'm not arguing about debt/xp/ratios or rationales. What I'm saying is if people are going to complain that PvPers get them debt by using MOBs in the fight, remove the debt and with it the xp.
Right now there's no xp or debt from PvP kills and no debt from drones. Beyond "I don't like it" why not just make the place 1 big penalty free/reward free free-fire zone.
This was based on the large number of posts in this thread referring to debt and griefing and does not reflect my personal views on debt which happen to be that it's a pretty weak penalty to begin with.
I'm curious if there are any logical arguments for or against such a change. Of course people will or will not like it. I'm not wondering about that at all, I'm wondering what the impact would be.
im actually not sure that that is actually doable. things like the police drones is easy to code to not give debt as the only place they can affect people are in PVP zones.
now if you change say arachnos guys to give no debt in a pvp zone. that would automatically make them give no debt in a PVE zone as well. Sure it could be coded around, but that would be a severe pain in the [censored].
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im actually not sure that that is actually doable. things like the police drones is easy to code to not give debt as the only place they can affect people are in PVP zones.
now if you change say arachnos guys to give no debt in a pvp zone. that would automatically make them give no debt in a PVE zone as well. Sure it could be coded around, but that would be a severe pain in the [censored].
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Yeah. I think just about everything in the game takes hoards of programming, nature of the beast. Wouldn't you just like a little peek at the flowcharting diagrams for the game?
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I guess I wasn't being clear.
I'm not arguing about debt/xp/ratios or rationales. What I'm saying is if people are going to complain that PvPers get them debt by using MOBs in the fight, remove the debt and with it the xp.
Right now there's no xp or debt from PvP kills and no debt from drones. Beyond "I don't like it" why not just make the place 1 big penalty free/reward free free-fire zone.
This was based on the large number of posts in this thread referring to debt and griefing and does not reflect my personal views on debt which happen to be that it's a pretty weak penalty to begin with.
I'm curious if there are any logical arguments for or against such a change. Of course people will or will not like it. I'm not wondering about that at all, I'm wondering what the impact would be.
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Your point is well made. I have mixed feelings on it. I like being able to do the repeatable door missions in the PvP zones. They seem to me to be the most efficient way to level. Exp and mission rewards are higher. Salvage drops for every completed mission and a bonus or debuff is implemented to those folks duking it out in the streets. I like this system ... a lot.
The yang to this ying are the risks and problems inherent with Free for All PvP. I need to expose myself to these risks when I travel to and from mission doors. Can I live without the bennies of the PvP zones? Yes. I did before they were released. Do I want to return to that same old lackluster story arc and street sweeping time? No.
I think the answer lies in a more immersive player involvement in the PvP zones. Want your FC and it's rules observed? Then you'll need active player sentries (call them "Masters at Arms") enforcing your rules and dealing with [censored] that seek to grief for the sake of griefing. The only other options the devs seem to want to give you have been discussed here ad nauseum.
This thread has turned into a ugly and thoughful and lengthy and harmful and uplifting quilt of craziness. If anything good comes from this thread, I hope people realize that anyone can do what ever they want in PvP but ,the person doing what ever they want has to realize that we are entitled to not like you or your actions for doing such said actions if they interfere with our fun. Even if the devs think it's ok for you to do it.
I also hope the Dev's read this forum and realize how craptastic the arena can be at times and fix it. I know you guys(DEV'S) don't like making up stuff just for no one to use.
To the Mighty Miss of Super Strength, you are so much better than holding a grudge. To the Roman religious one, You are so much better than greifing. This Thread is over. Do not post any more to it. 6,000 views for a harmless thread about how to beat getting knocked over a building is too much.
Actually, I believe that mobs in PvP zones currently give increased XP over mobs in PvE zones. 
So, the coding shouldn't be any more difficult than the decreased debt in missions or the increased XP when completing a mission on a higher diffuculty level. 
Now, while the idea is certainly intriguing, I doubt that the DEVs would even consider it.
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I just sent a PM to cuppa asking if purposefully giving a player debt is considered griefing. Will update when she gets back to me
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The Devs say - No.
Ultimately PVE mobs in a PVP zones are hazards of a PVP zone. Players do have control (and options) that will prevent them from being victims of the TP Foe tactic.
Regarding being held, immobilized, slept and then being teleported into a PVE mob: griefing? No.
If a player uses TP Foe and teleports another player into a mob, so that their health is reduced, and then finishes them off with a killing shot
.griefing? No.
If a player intentionally uses a knockback power (or Repel or Dispersion Bubble) on another player from the top of the roof to the street below where there happens to be a PVE mob, and the players presence draws mob aggro and dies
should the player who knocked back the target player off that roof be actioned for griefing? No.
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In other words, act like a complete and utter [censored] as long as you don't violate the language rules. Go ahead and rack up kills on the same person over and over... make them reach their debt cap WE DON'T GIVE A DAMN.
This is why I don't PvP... there is no honor in it. For those of you who enjoy pulling the legs off ants, you've just been told by God himself that it's not only OK, it's ENCOURAGED.
Lovely...
"I swear you could fling a man hole cover across the street and hit more notes than 90% of those idiots on American Idol" -Desmodos
"Every time you post I feel like I been hit with a fist full of smart! Thanks." - Volken re: Sucker Punch
Arc #36984 V'kta A'cha Vox'm
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I just sent a PM to cuppa asking if purposefully giving a player debt is considered griefing. Will update when she gets back to me
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The Devs say - No.
Ultimately PVE mobs in a PVP zones are hazards of a PVP zone. Players do have control (and options) that will prevent them from being victims of the TP Foe tactic.
Regarding being held, immobilized, slept and then being teleported into a PVE mob: griefing? No.
If a player uses TP Foe and teleports another player into a mob, so that their health is reduced, and then finishes them off with a killing shot
.griefing? No.
If a player intentionally uses a knockback power (or Repel or Dispersion Bubble) on another player from the top of the roof to the street below where there happens to be a PVE mob, and the players presence draws mob aggro and dies
should the player who knocked back the target player off that roof be actioned for griefing? No.
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In other words, act like a complete and utter [censored] as long as you don't violate the language rules. Go ahead and rack up kills on the same person over and over... make them reach their debt cap WE DON'T GIVE A DAMN.
This is why I don't PvP... there is no honor in it. For those of you who enjoy pulling the legs off ants, you've just been told by God himself that it's not only OK, it's ENCOURAGED.
Lovely...
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Heh. The dev's have provided the arena for the kind of PvP you'd enjoy. If you don't enjoy PvP at all, you have the whole rest of the game, where you can petition anyone that goes out of there way to get you killed, and rightly you should, because, I don't belive in griefing people.
But this is a PvP zone. Your WARNED OVER AND OVER again that if you go in, your fair game for just about any and everything. And even in PvP zones there ARE some rules that can't be broken, like camping a hospital, teleporting people into places they can't get out of, and LEAVING them there... allthough i'd consider it a vaild tactic if your intend was to just keep them from running away so you could kill them, but just tping them and leaving them stuck is griefing. The Dev's have said as much.
But, anything besides that is fair game, and as it should be. If i'm in a fight with a villan that's going badly, I'll do what i need to to stay alive and win the fight. I'd rather live and subdue the bad guy then DIE an HONERABLE death.
If that means TPing him away from me and into some mobs, that's what i'll do. It's within my power to do it, and it's a valid tactic, and i'll do it if i need to. The fact the dev's have the game set up to give him debt as a result is poor desigh planning on there part.
I'll will use ANY tool i have at my disposile to win a battle, because as a hero, i feel it is my DUTY to bring in the bad guys, by any means nessarity. If i can do it and not cause debt, then i'll defeat them that way. If i'm on the ropes and can get the upper hand with a well placed wormhole into a pack of waiting Longbow, guess what? I'm giving you a one way ticket to meet my buddies.
And it's not griefing, because, i'm not doing it to purpusefully give someone else debt. I'm only using the tactics as a means to win. I have no malice one way or the other.
Which is why the devs have to take this stance. You can't know for sure the guy who TP's you int a pack is doing to it sololy to grief you with debt. It's just as possible he's like me, using what tools he has to win the battle his in.
And as far as RP events go... can a bad guy REALLY be expected to respect the wishes of anyone, let alone a hero? Would a hero REALLY stand by and watch bad guys killing each other and do NOTHING, just letting them GO?
And besides, if everyone in the PvP zone is hold up at one of these RP events, where does that leave the rest of us who want some pvp action but don't feel like being a part of the RP event? SOL? Hardly, i'm afraid.
This game catters to everyone in one way or another. No PvP. Fine Play the other 99% of the game. PvP by YOUR rules? Fine, go to the arena. PvP no holds bard? Fine, you have 3 zones, soon to be 4, knock yourself out.
Why is that so hard to understand, and accept?
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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I just sent a PM to cuppa asking if purposefully giving a player debt is considered griefing. Will update when she gets back to me
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The Devs say - No.
Ultimately PVE mobs in a PVP zones are hazards of a PVP zone. Players do have control (and options) that will prevent them from being victims of the TP Foe tactic.
Regarding being held, immobilized, slept and then being teleported into a PVE mob: griefing? No.
If a player uses TP Foe and teleports another player into a mob, so that their health is reduced, and then finishes them off with a killing shot
.griefing? No.
If a player intentionally uses a knockback power (or Repel or Dispersion Bubble) on another player from the top of the roof to the street below where there happens to be a PVE mob, and the players presence draws mob aggro and dies
should the player who knocked back the target player off that roof be actioned for griefing? No.
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So what this says to me is that everything listed above is a valid combat tactic in a PvP zone.
My question in response to that, however, is....
Should all of those tactics incur debt, even if an NPC is involved in the damage?
Shouldn't there be a little effort to minimize debt from these listed strategies? eg: give a 10 second debt suppression after any player-based power affects you.
This is really a new topic, I'll take it to its own thread.
Well, I would never purposely try to give someone debt, I want to get the kill, not let some stupid NPC get it. But no matter how you get it, debt is really not hard to work off, even at the cap, which is quite low compared to how fast a good team can gain exp.
If you don't want to be attacked by a player, don't go into PvP zones. If you do go into the zone you might get attacked, maybe repeatedly, maybe by the same person, you might even get debt. If you can't handle that then please don't go to the open PvP zones, the last thing we need is people crying over spilt milk when we're trying to have fun.
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Well thats one way to scare away all the casual PVP'ers. there go the easy targets...
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What are you people talking about? Why are there PAGES of this stuff? I'm at best a "casual" PvPer and this dev ruling doesn't deter me from PvP at all.
What is the BIG DEAL about debt? Noooo! I have to play the game MORE now! DOOOOOM!
I team with the Repeat Offenders.
What about pvp dont you people understand?
please, Go watch Animal plant or something, So your logic can be adjusted.
Your perfect world reasoning makes me sick, and you are a carebear that wants mommy to fight your battles.
Stop crying chicken little(the sky is falling)crap.
Welcome to the jungle your gonna die!!!!
Why are you all on my lawn?? Go back to your own servers!!!
Get out of here you young whippersnappers!!!
(Seriously this thread really should be moved to the General or PvP section)
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What about pvp dont you people understand?
please, Go watch Animal plant or something, So your logic can be adjusted.
Your perfect world reasoning makes me sick, and you are a carebear that wants mommy to fight your battles.
Stop crying chicken little(the sky is falling)crap.
Welcome to the jungle your gonna die!!!!
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Actually, it would be you doing the dying if you showed your face on the evening my SG decides to invade a PvP zone. However, you are not on Champion, so go ahead and boast.
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
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im actually not sure that that is actually doable. things like the police drones is easy to code to not give debt as the only place they can affect people are in PVP zones.
now if you change say arachnos guys to give no debt in a pvp zone. that would automatically make them give no debt in a PVE zone as well. Sure it could be coded around, but that would be a severe pain in the [censored].
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Yeah. I think just about everything in the game takes hoards of programming, nature of the beast. Wouldn't you just like a little peek at the flowcharting diagrams for the game?
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omg god no. the flow charts for this game would be freaking huge. just trying to trace the functions would be nightmarish
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Yeah. I think just about everything in the game takes hoards of programming, nature of the beast. Wouldn't you just like a little peek at the flowcharting diagrams for the game?
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omg god no. the flow charts for this game would be freaking huge. just trying to trace the functions would be nightmarish
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Flowcharts? Is it the 1980s again?
I team with the Repeat Offenders.
Dev's will you guys delete this damn thread already!!!!!!!!
do you program? before you start coding you have to have some idea where the program is going first. everyone still uses flow charts to depict this, although they are more commonly referred to as SCATA systems now.
SCATA stands for something but hell if i remember
Uh oh, more reasons to ignore pvp zones....
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The arena has a much nicer setup for 1v1 battles, and we should be getting hero vs. villian functionality in Issue 7.
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Hehe... if the arena actually had a good user interface you'd know this is available now. Heroes and villains can use the arena together.
The problems I see with the arena are the horrible user interface and the lack of choice in combat settings. I like the arena overall, just listing the downers.