I like Kitties. But I am a notorious villain with a rep to maintain so let's keep that between us. 
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This is a tactic for when running doesn't work, when asking them to go away doesn't either.
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I would use your own words against you, since you stated earlier that if anyone attacks you, you just push them into NPC's for debt and that you wanted to give them something to remember you by, but it seems you deleted all your other posts. Neat-O way to CYA. Not even Rove has it so nice.
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>.> other's have it quoted still, and your taking it both out of context, AND changing what I said.. well... I can go back and select words you said and re-order them for the perpose of making you look bad. I deleated those post because I don't care to be mis-represented. What I had been talking about up till I got tired of the mudsligging, was when the person was attacking you. Thus, you are acting in defence of yourself.
<.< and the comment about leaving them something to remember their trouble bye, was after a remark about them not leaving me alone and hounding.
o.o I have to ask, is there a reason your particullarly trying to villainize me? or are you just really board?
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You came in and took a stance that I disagree with. I stated why another person had their outlook. You then called my approach neurotic and proceeded to judge me personally based on my explanation of why another person felt the way they did. I then personally assessed your view based on the statements you have/had made.
You feel "villainized" (word?) because you took the stand of a rude approach. You supported giving other players unnecessary debt. You gave very broad, illogical reasons (if you're just collecting a 5 hr badge, what does it hurt for you to be killed by a Stalker? Obviously nothing) for this and then changed your story when confronted with other ways to avoid that approach.
All of this results in me confronting your stance, arguments, reasons, and insults with my own. Anyone who takes stances I don't agree with, argues points I don't agree with, gives illogical reasoning for the aforementioned stances or points, or insults me gets the same treatment.
- Ping (@iltat, @Pinghole)
Don't take it personally if you think I was mean to you. I'm an ******* to everyone.
It's a penguin thing. Pingu FTW.
You know what bothers me with this thread....is that people are going on....over and over about how they dont think its fair that basically they cant impose rules on an open game zone.
The truth is they could if they would get a clue and do an arena match.
The other thing that bothers me....is that its abovious they the FC players choose the PVP zones becasue they know the map they know the terrain.
They dont choose the Arena because of the random stuff.(positron you need to get a clue and make the maps selectable....that feature is what makes the pvp games fun)
I would really like to see people not bicker and whine about a PVP zone and instead start sending PMs to Positron and some of the developers and maybe start threads saying you want to have some things added to the Arenas.
This entire thing would be totaly moot if there where some way to select the map in an arena match.
Also if players who make the match could select the rules more...like specificy specific powers that could be used...change the way supression works...etc....even making it so they could put specific temp powers on the players of the match...and thats all they get.
I do this at home on a game i play with my firends and we have a heck of a good time....the reason is we know the maps, and we know what to expect...we avoid specific maps unless we play with certain weapons or rules becasue otherwise those maps are meanigless and the games become un-fun.
SO what i am saying is...every single one of you responders on this thread...get a clue...send PMs to Positron and Stateman...and ask them for Arena changes...and stop posting stupidity like this....its the only way you will have a more satisfying game...its too obvious that some of you would rather gripe about some lame small issue then to actually think a little and figure out what it is....that is truly the problem.
And for the record....I truly want a big pirate ship for an Arena Match...that would be neat...=^_^=
And it sounds like the FC group wants maybe a cage they can have eletricity going through or barbed wire on while players are beating up each other in the middle....or a map with a specific building or hill that they can play king of the hill on.
I dont think i am way off base...after playing way too many PVP games i bet i have hit the proverbial nail on the head.
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IDK if this was brought up because i dont feel like reading the whole entire thread, but i acctually thought about it when i just made my post, here it is:
Cuppa, is someone in a PvP zone aloud to Teleport you, hold you, immobilize you, or in any way do something to you that you cant control INTO a PvE mob? Does that count and is acceptable? Because that has happened to me 1000+ times and i HATE getting debt.
Now your probably going to say that this is a PvP zone and it has risks and i understand that. But then why are PvE's in a PvP zone? I can understand for Sirens Call that you need them in there and the meteor guys in BB and the guys in the "web" for WB.
But can a player do that to ya?
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During CoV beta, a player asked:
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So instead of joining right in, I drag my toggle (darkest night) herding up say a few spawns of mobs, and drag them over the battle, hoping to cause a big ruckus, get a few people to drop below 50% hp, and bam SCOURGE!...
Got a tell from a guy afterward saying that I griefed them.
Sure a few guys got killed by NPC damage so they got debt, but it is a valid tactic yes?
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The OFFICIAL response, from Statesman himself (please note the red), was:
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Actually, it's a valid tactic the way you describe it.
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You are also talking about someone that used their GM rights in CoH beta to monster grief a group just because they griefed him. Mage Storm was 100% correct in this thread earlier. Just because you can do something doesn't make it right, Samus.
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okay here is a question regarding mobs. say i am fighting in a hotspot by myself, im at just above 1/2 healthand i have about 12 mobs around me. a villian throws a couple attacks at me and i drop to like 50 hp. say the next attack on me is by a psi spider - lm dead. i just got debt because a villian attacked me.
is this griefing? if not why? if your one villian and 12 mobs. what are the percentages your getting the kill? make it easier, say it was 9 mobs. that gives you a 10 % chance have getting the kill. 9/10 times you will be giving me debt? realistically that should be considered debt.
or how about the other way around. im tp you into a hotspot with my troller. i have minimal dmg output. i hope for the mobs to where you down and get teh killing shot. same scenario. i have 10% chance to get the bounty, but i am trying to kill you, is it griefing?
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No.
Let's turn the situation into mobs only. Let's say you are in the middle of a group of 9 mobs, that are all agro'd on you, and suddenly another mob agro's you and kills you. Did that mob grief you? When you are fighting one group of mobs and agro a second group, are they griefing you?
If you are battling a group of 9 players, and a 10th one shows up just in time to collect the kill, did that player grief you?
If you are battling a group of 9 players and a mob suddenly agros (through no deliberate action of any of the players), did the mob grief you?
In the scenarios you've described, the hot spots, the whole point is for the factions to try to defeat the other faction. Arachnos or Villain, Longbow or Hero, we players are on the same side as the mobs, and part of the bigger "team". If you're a hero and you're fighting a horde of Arachnos and a Villain shows up... it would be just like an Elite Boss spawning in a mission (actually, more like a normal Boss). And last I checked, petitioning an Elite Boss for griefing you because it agro'd on you while you were preoccupied with some minions would get you nothing more than silence as your response.
i don't understand why so many people are so hot about this. there's a forum girl usa pageant going on and people are eating it up like candy. but we're going to gouge each others' eyes out about the finer intricacies of pvp morality and how unfair things can be in open pvp zones. i just don't get it.
so here's another solution. sc is like the wild west. if you guys like fc, and you like to do it in sc, and it's outlaw country with few rules and little law, and that's causing problems...then why not just take the law into your own hands? build a coalition. call it 'fc bouncers' or something. you can form teams and build a perimeter around fc. when people come to disrupt, it's "gank bishes" time. sounds like fun? voila. hell, i'll even pitch in.
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I just sent a PM to cuppa asking if purposefully giving a player debt is considered griefing. Will update when she gets back to me
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The Devs say - No. (Unless something is occurring over and over with the intention to harass, then it may be actioned.)
Ultimately PVE mobs in a PVP zones are hazards of a PVP zone. Players do have control (and options) that will prevent them from being victims of the TP Foe tactic.
Regarding being held, immobilized, slept and then being teleported into a PVE mob: griefing? No.
If a player uses TP Foe and teleports another player into a mob, so that their health is reduced, and then finishes them off with a killing shot
.griefing? No.
If a player intentionally uses a knockback power (or Repel or Dispersion Bubble) on another player from the top of the roof to the street below where there happens to be a PVE mob, and the players presence draws mob aggro and dies
should the player who knocked back the target player off that roof be actioned for griefing? No.
Case closed.
So you can play how ever you like. Just remember you reap what you sow.
now we shall see what this leads us
Ex-Mayor of Champion
I Love all my Championites. I hope to see everyone once again.
SHOWTIME - You guys are like my family!
Nothing good can come of this. *shrug*
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Nothing good can come of this. *shrug*
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Agree.
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Nothing good can come of this. *shrug*
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Agree.
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You can please some of the people most of the time... most of the people some of the time, but never can you please all of the people all of the time.
People, like the mighty chick, won't like this ruling at all. I can symphise, but, come on... it's an open PvP zone with heros versus villans... it SHOULD be no holds bard.
If they'd just drop the debt penelity in the zone, along with XP from the NPC mobs in the open zone, not missions of course, this problem would go away for the most part... save people disrutping you RP events...
That, or make all pvp death carry the debt penetaly, that way, death is death, no matter who's hand it's by, and this whole TPing people into mobs debate will also be resolved.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
Wow.
Starting today I've been trying to read the boards to stay abreast of current events, although not interacting with them; taking a brief break, if you will. I've followed this thread as it grew, and shrank, then grew again. I've listened to both sides make their case, and noted that neither side is interested in compromising ... oh well, sometimes it happens. I had no desire to get involved either, as I've had enough of threads getting mixed up with personal vendettas, and threads that end in flame-wars in general.
But this, I can't pass up ...
Causing debt to another player in PvE is definitely discouraged. If not, there wouldn't be police drones in Portal Corp today. But in PvP it's valid and acceptable? What makes the difference? Why is it unacceptable behavior in one zone, but not even worth a slap on the wrist in another?
It is understandable that PvP zones have no real way of easily policing "right and wrong" within them. GMs must have a hell of a time trying to arbitrate the hundreds (maybe thousands) of "griefing" petitions they get in a day. And it's not easy trying to find a solution that is fair and equitable to both sides of an argument, especially if both sides are paying customers. Taking up a moral stance and sticking to it when you will be damned one way or the other is not a position I envy. But IMO, taking a stance is better than taking no stance at all - it seems like PvP zones are moving towards a "laissez faire" attitude towards what goes on within them.
A very good friend of mine once noted that "PvP will be the death knell for this game." I wouldn't go that far, but I can't argue that it hasn't had a definite detrimental impact from certain perspectives. At this point, PvP is an entirely different game from the original PvE game ... and they don't really gel at all, IMO. That's an entirely different discussion though, and frankly I don't even care to debate it. All I know is that the more time that goes by, the more I see threads like this. And the more experiences I have within PvP zones, the more I see previously agreeable people degenerate into elementary school bullies. All-in-all, the less I want to be involved with open PvP at all.
Back on topic: There's a difference in playing to have fun, and having fun by ruining other people's fun. There's a difference between winning a friendly competition, and dominating an opponent by superior firepower or numbers or some other unfair advantage.
And each of us should damn well understand those differences, whether we admit it here or not.
If for some reason you don't know the difference at this point in your life, there's no point in wasting my time by trying to explain it.
I'm gonna take this opportunity to appologize to thsoe who will get extremely upset with me. I have just been handed a loaded weapon with the ok to go nuts with it. This is something they have not thought through. Maybe when I am done they will rethink it. I have no interest in killing anyone my only intrest is going to be to cause agonyand grief. The Debt shall now flow
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I just sent a PM to cuppa asking if purposefully giving a player debt is considered griefing. Will update when she gets back to me
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The Devs say - No.
Ultimately PVE mobs in a PVP zones are hazards of a PVP zone. Players do have control (and options) that will prevent them from being victims of the TP Foe tactic.
Regarding being held, immobilized, slept and then being teleported into a PVE mob: griefing? No.
If a player uses TP Foe and teleports another player into a mob, so that their health is reduced, and then finishes them off with a killing shot
.griefing? No.
If a player intentionally uses a knockback power (or Repel or Dispersion Bubble) on another player from the top of the roof to the street below where there happens to be a PVE mob, and the players presence draws mob aggro and dies
should the player who knocked back the target player off that roof be actioned for griefing? No.
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See, she stated it clear and simple What I do is neither harassment or griefing! Practically any tactic is valid in PvP.
As for the Devs' stance (not blaming Cuppa), bummer.
I appreciate the apology Helms. I have faith that this thread will now never die, and this will get ugly.
The griefing shall now flow like a river.
Edit: As I said in-game, the only repurcussion now will be player-induced. I know I'll be starting a personal list of folks who I will not team with for PvP now.
- Ping (@iltat, @Pinghole)
Don't take it personally if you think I was mean to you. I'm an ******* to everyone.
It's a penguin thing. Pingu FTW.
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I just sent a PM to cuppa asking if purposefully giving a player debt is considered griefing. Will update when she gets back to me
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The Devs say - No.
Ultimately PVE mobs in a PVP zones are hazards of a PVP zone. Players do have control (and options) that will prevent them from being victims of the TP Foe tactic.
Regarding being held, immobilized, slept and then being teleported into a PVE mob: griefing? No.
If a player uses TP Foe and teleports another player into a mob, so that their health is reduced, and then finishes them off with a killing shot
.griefing? No.
If a player intentionally uses a knockback power (or Repel or Dispersion Bubble) on another player from the top of the roof to the street below where there happens to be a PVE mob, and the players presence draws mob aggro and dies
should the player who knocked back the target player off that roof be actioned for griefing? No.
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Cuppa, any ruling on a hero in Bloody Bay confusing a stalker*, who can with 100% immunity kill any villain they please, even next to arachnos drones, for the duration of the confuse? Is this acceptable also? There is nothing in the code to prevent it, and it does not even have the negative side effect of debt.
If this is ok, then add another notch on my list of reasons why pvp in this game is very broken. My faith in it is already being shaken by the results of this thread. This is layered on top of hovering blasters who can snipe you while you sit at your base talking to the contact, even though there are drones there for a reason one would think - i.e. to keep opposing players from attacking you while you are there.
*This could apply to any AT, though stalkers can elegantly kill someone who isn't suspecting anything with a simple AS and followup attack, and is the way it was done to me.
Enough...
I'd ask Cuppa to lock this, but people don't listen to me anyhow.
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I'm gonna take this opportunity to appologize to thsoe who will get extremely upset with me. I have just been handed a loaded weapon with the ok to go nuts with it. This is something they have not thought through. Maybe when I am done they will rethink it. I have no interest in killing anyone my only intrest is going to be to cause agonyand grief. The Debt shall now flow
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Yes, it is a sad shame. I don't fault you at all. I may have to roll up a character with TP foe(a power I never have taken on a single character), stealth of course, fly to reach the annoying buggers don't get in range, and any other powers which seem to come to mind. My interest in entering a pvp zone is fading even more than it was before.
I still maintain that the devs would like to forbid some of the things discussed here, but have no way of tracking it, and are taking the easy way out and calling it acceptable. I can't prove this of course, but I can't see them honestly believing that intentionally causing xp debt is acceptable. Entering the pvp zones, one accepts being attacked by other players, but that isn't really thought to mean intentional xp debt. Accidental debt is another thing, and it has happened to me on a few occasions in my time in BB, where I died to an accidentally agroed npc after I beat my opponent. But intentionally causing it is altogether different.
As a few have mentioned, the only real solution is to make player-induced and npc-induced deaths cause the same amount of debt, whether that be 0 or standard amount. Otherwise, as you state, this may get a bit nasty in the coming days, and I can't say I blame anyone for it. I just won't be entering a pvp zone with any of my real characters. I'd rather join in on the chaos than fall victim to it. 
CuppaJo came from the mountain and the tablets said:
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Players do have control (and options) that will prevent them from being victims of the TP Foe tactic.
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OK. I've been playing this game a while but I'm sure I must have missed it. The following are all I can come up with to counter the TP Foe attack:
Team with a Kin/* defender or a */Kin controller
They can cast Increase Density on you. Assuming they took this power. Not a given in a low level PvP zone.
Don't be in a PvP zone.
I guess this is the option that Cuppa was referring to.
Have I missed any other way of controlling being the victim of a TP Foe? Inquiring minds want to know.
Thanks,
Z.
"I don't have an angel and a devil on my shoulder, I have Rocky and Bullwinkle." - Lore Sj�berg
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And it sounds like the FC group wants maybe a cage they can have eletricity going through or barbed wire on while players are beating up each other in the middle....or a map with a specific building or hill that they can play king of the hill on.
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Oooooh, maybe we could get our own Monkey Fight Club (like in Sharkshead) for heroes and villains to play in.
Ok, this is the first and last post I will contribute to this thread. buh-bye. 
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There's a difference in playing to have fun, and having fun by ruining other people's fun. There's a difference between winning a friendly competition, and dominating an opponent by superior firepower or numbers or some other unfair advantage.
And each of us should damn well understand those differences, whether we admit it here or not.
If for some reason you don't know the difference at this point in your life, there's no point in wasting my time by trying to explain it.
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I have to agree at this point, T.
Thanks for pointing out the "no rules" in PvP zones, Cuppa. Well, that just set back the PvP interest I was trying to drum up for the zones. Too bad, too. Looks like I am going to have to agree with Wildstar on this one. Kill on sight it is.
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
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I just sent a PM to cuppa asking if purposefully giving a player debt is considered griefing. Will update when she gets back to me
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The Devs say - No.
Ultimately PVE mobs in a PVP zones are hazards of a PVP zone. Players do have control (and options) that will prevent them from being victims of the TP Foe tactic.
Regarding being held, immobilized, slept and then being teleported into a PVE mob: griefing? No.
If a player uses TP Foe and teleports another player into a mob, so that their health is reduced, and then finishes them off with a killing shot
.griefing? No.
If a player intentionally uses a knockback power (or Repel or Dispersion Bubble) on another player from the top of the roof to the street below where there happens to be a PVE mob, and the players presence draws mob aggro and dies
should the player who knocked back the target player off that roof be actioned for griefing? No.
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See, she stated it clear and simple What I do is neither harassment or griefing! Practically any tactic is valid in PvP.
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Indeed. But totally irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. I find your recent behavior asinine, therefore I won't team with you. The 'rules' just don't enter into it for me.
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I just sent a PM to cuppa asking if purposefully giving a player debt is considered griefing. Will update when she gets back to me
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The Devs say - No.
Ultimately PVE mobs in a PVP zones are hazards of a PVP zone. Players do have control (and options) that will prevent them from being victims of the TP Foe tactic.
Regarding being held, immobilized, slept and then being teleported into a PVE mob: griefing? No.
If a player uses TP Foe and teleports another player into a mob, so that their health is reduced, and then finishes them off with a killing shot
.griefing? No.
If a player intentionally uses a knockback power (or Repel or Dispersion Bubble) on another player from the top of the roof to the street below where there happens to be a PVE mob, and the players presence draws mob aggro and dies
should the player who knocked back the target player off that roof be actioned for griefing? No.
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See, she stated it clear and simple What I do is neither harassment or griefing! Practically any tactic is valid in PvP.
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Then stop crying on broadcast when everyone keeps ganking you.
You can be smug all you like. The end result is still the same. A lot of us don't respect you, your tactics, or your attitude. So maybe you can't get banned for your behavior but you certainly can be shunned by those who you have victimized. There is power in numbers. Those numbers, heroes and villains alike are growing against you. It's us you play the game with. Not the Devs. You may want to consider that the next time you intentionally upset another player for some self gratification. Your actions speak far louder than your words.
If something upsets us it upsets us. Not you or the devs have anything to say about it. No one can tell us how we should feel. A lot of us have made it perfectly clear that some of your actions upset us. None of that seems to matter to you.
No law against farting in an elevator full of people either. Doesn't mean the people in the elevator aren't going to find it any less disgusting or upsetting especially if that person goes out of there way to do it as often as they can even after people have explained it was upsetting to them and why.
In other words your behavior in SC stinks and some of us are tired of it. Your attitude is you don't think we can do anything about it so you are going to do it anyway and the hell with how we feel. Yet you whine on broadcast if you get ganked constantly while laughing at us while constantly knocking people off buildings or causing them to get killed by mobs. Like what was said before. You reap what you sow. To whine about it afterwards is hypocritical at best.
What have your actions accomplished. Have you stopped FC? Nope. Has your rating gone up any faster than it would have if you haven't kept disrupting FC? I doubt it. The only thing I have seen you accomplish is several players heroes not wanting to team with you and Villains who want to gank you every time you are spotted. Well if that's your idea of fun congratulations. Personally I always thought you get more bees with honey but I guess hitting their nest with a stick will get you even more.
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Indeed. But totally irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. I find your recent behavior asinine, therefore I won't team with you. The 'rules' just don't enter into it for me.
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I couldnt care less if you chose not to team with me!
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This is a tactic for when running doesn't work, when asking them to go away doesn't either.
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I would use your own words against you, since you stated earlier that if anyone attacks you, you just push them into NPC's for debt and that you wanted to give them something to remember you by, but it seems you deleted all your other posts. Neat-O way to CYA. Not even Rove has it so nice.
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>.> other's have it quoted still, and your taking it both out of context, AND changing what I said.. well... I can go back and select words you said and re-order them for the perpose of making you look bad. I deleated those post because I don't care to be mis-represented. What I had been talking about up till I got tired of the mudsligging, was when the person was attacking you. Thus, you are acting in defence of yourself.
<.< and the comment about leaving them something to remember their trouble bye, was after a remark about them not leaving me alone and hounding.
o.o I have to ask, is there a reason your particullarly trying to villainize me? or are you just really board?
I am Sleepy! Hear me Yawn!!
Veni, Vidi, Dormivi!
-Alpha Kitty of the Guardian chapter of the Legion of Catgirls
Never forget--Sleepy could conquer the world, if she could just stay awake long enough. =) -Llanwe