Why you should go build a Kinetics/Sonics defender
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2006-03-26 22:15 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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The duration of Fulcrum Shift is 45 seconds, while with proper slotting and Siphon Speed (usually stacked) several FSs can go off in that time. Meaning that the kineticist can operate at his damage cap indefinitely.
~Gabriel
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Siphon speed and Fulcrum shift putting anyone at a damage cap requires a lot of targets to hit simultaneously. The odds are against such a perfect environment to provide enough bad guys to achieve so many hits without oh, dying from all their damage 
"Indefinitely" is a big exaggeration due to that factor. "for a while when factors coincide" is a lot closer.
In large teams I find it hard to even get Fulcrum shift off versus each spawn of bad guys before the blasters and scrappers have already killed most of em. I'm lucky if the melee folks get 4 buffs from each Fulcrum Shift on average. That is far from keeping me at max damage.
Solo it'd be even harder as I'd have to somehow herd up three or four spawns to fulcrum shift from if I wanted to max my damage.
Not only that but blaster damage max is 5 x 100% = 500% whereas defender max damage is 4 x 66% = 264% -- not much more than half. And blasters can situationally maintain their damage near that cap with Defiance, which is only a little harder to do than to keep 10+ live mobs in Fulcrum-shifting range ... if that.
Wait. That... I thought Sonics had a 95% accuracy!
PERC Supporter
La Pucelle (BS/SR)
Miseria Bella (Sonic/Dark)
Wrangler Annie (SS/Elec)
Coldsmoke (Ice/Dark)
Saber Maid (BS/Regen)
and others...
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Then why do I have such bad accuracy problems on my electricity blaster and defender?? More than any other powersets.
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It's all a matter of perception.
(No, not the Perception ingame.)
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I will admist it SEEMS as if my electric blaster and my storm/electric defender miss more than my other blasters but I tie that in a little bit to visual power effect.. When my NRG hits he often knocks back ( or down cause I hover alot ), Fire I see the DoT working when i hit. Elec really doesnt have an effect like that which reinforces the fact I am hitting.
I would like Castle to answer THIS question though. Why is it when Elec misses it LOOKS like I hit ?? this INFURIATES me to no end at times because it SEEMS like I am hitting a target when I am not. When other targets miss its blatantly obvious that you miss.. Why is Elec different in this aspect and can it be fixed ??
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Though the blast may look like it hit, the enemy was aware of you attack and got properly grounded....
Contrary to what others are saying after your post, my sonic/sonic defender actually seems to miss *much* more than any other set I've ever had. Are the base ACCs for some of the sets higher than 100% in general?
Just curious because having played... well, everything, it seemed like sonics had the worst base ACC of all.
I assumed and accepted it was to mitigate the damage resistance debuffs with every power in the set, to keep it from being unbalanced?
well my 2 cents is, and this is only imo(and most of my friends), but i wouldnt build a defender now if you payed me. The inherent power sux so bad its usless, and the lack of real damage really cripples them for solo. Empathy or a Dark is the only real reason to do a defender now, and Emp isnt really that good anymore. If you want a toon that will be more help in a group then go with a controller. Even solo they are much better. They make up for all those short comings with powers that will help a group much more than any defender ever could.
I figured this out when i played healer for a herding (o no a bad word) tank with my ill/kin controller. He had a lvl 50 hami o'ed Emp/psy healing for him before i took over. He had died a couple times like always happens. But once i took over, not once did he even come close to biting it and he killed much faster. It was a learning exp for both of us, but to this day he prefers controllers to defenders on his missions.
But thats just my 2 cent...
Broomhilda BS/Regen/BM Scrapper, Fiddle Faddle Shield/ElecM/BM Tank,
And many others..
Dev's With all the Great new content, Please!! dont forget to fix the bugs with the old content. There is a storm a brewing because they are not getting fixed. If its a problem that no one is reporting them? Well Maybe you need to look at your tech support then..
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Sonics has a lower accuracy than Electric, I recall.
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Charged Bolt: 100%
Lightning Bolt: 100%
Ball Lightning: 100%
Short Circuit: 130%
Zapp: 120%
Tesla Cage: 100%
Thunderous Blast: 140%
Shriek: 100%
Scream: 100%
Howl: 100%
Shockwave: 90%
Shout: 100%
Sirens Song: 90%
Screech: 100%
Dreadful Wail: 140%
Sonics doesn't have *bad* accuracy, in general, but Electric has very good accuracy.
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Thank you very much for clarifying the lack of Sonic accuracy problems. Very VERY appreciated.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
Q: Why should you build a Kin/Sonics?
A: Because you want to play a Kin/Sonics.
If you don't want to play a Kin/Sonic, then don't build one.
If you are looking to min/max the DPS or Burst damage, then go ahead and be a Spreadsheet GURU and microanalize the differences in Acc, Damage, Recharge, etc.
Most times, I pick my primaries and secondaries for the "funness" and general usefulness of the powersets, not the "who does 0.0054% more damage per second" powersets.
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Sonics has a lower accuracy than Electric, I recall.
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Charged Bolt: 100%
Lightning Bolt: 100%
Ball Lightning: 100%
Short Circuit: 130%
Zapp: 120%
Tesla Cage: 100%
Thunderous Blast: 140%
Shriek: 100%
Scream: 100%
Howl: 100%
Shockwave: 90%
Shout: 100%
Sirens Song: 90%
Screech: 100%
Dreadful Wail: 140%
Sonics doesn't have *bad* accuracy, in general, but Electric has very good accuracy.
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Thank you very much for clarifying the lack of Sonic accuracy problems. Very VERY appreciated.
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Ah vindication!
In an early post (that I can't find anymore - lost to purging) I posted that there wasn't a -5 accuracy penalty applied to sonic (at least for ALL powers).
I had tested Shriek in outbreak with 4000 attacks against even con minions and posting a picture of the hero stats screen (averaging out to 76 percent when I finally quit).
Even with that no one wanted to believe me or run there own tests.
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Sonics has a lower accuracy than Electric, I recall.
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Charged Bolt: 100%
Lightning Bolt: 100%
Ball Lightning: 100%
Short Circuit: 130%
Zapp: 120%
Tesla Cage: 100%
Thunderous Blast: 140%
Shriek: 100%
Scream: 100%
Howl: 100%
Shockwave: 90%
Shout: 100%
Sirens Song: 90%
Screech: 100%
Dreadful Wail: 140%
Sonics doesn't have *bad* accuracy, in general, but Electric has very good accuracy.
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And here's the sets he left out:
Archery
115.5% for all except:
Ranged Shot: 139%
Assault Rifle
105% for all except:
Sniper Rifle: 125%
Flame Thrower: 130%
Full Auto: 135%
Energy
100% for all except:
Sniper Blast: 120%
Power Push: 140%
Nova: 140%
Fire
100% for all except:
Fire Breath: 120%
Blazing Bolt: 120%
Inferno: 140%
Ice
100% for all except:
Frost Breath: 120%
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1) Fulcrum shift does not magicly put you at the cap just because you activate it. It gives about 15% increase for each mob that it effects. So with a standard 3 mob grouping you are only going to get about +45% increase from it. Also it has been a while since i played my kinetic but I am pretty sure it can not be ran perma. which cuts into the whole sustainable thing. In order to max out you need a large number of mobs. which brings me to point 2
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Fulcrum shift is most definitely perma. In fact, you can even stack it with itself without much difficulty. As for the numbers, each mob affected by FS gives 25% damage buff, and the aoe buff centered around caster gives a 40% buff. So even on a 3-person spawn it's quite possible to get a 115% buff. And it can stack with siphon power.
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Thunderous Blast: 140%
[/ QUOTE ]Thunderous Blast has the same bug as TF had for tankers. with 3 acc, build up, and aim popped i miss all the time.
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Then why do I have such bad accuracy problems on my electricity blaster and defender?? More than any other powersets.
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It's all a matter of perception.
(No, not the Perception ingame.)
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lol. I dunno why, but this made me laugh.
Member of:
Repeat Offenders Network - The Largest Coalition Network in the Game, across Virtue, Freedom, Justice and Exalted. Open to all, check us out.
Current Team Project: Pending
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Perhaps I missed it, but did you account for animation csting times? Transfusion, transference, siphon speed/power and fulcrum shift have decent animation times, combined with the fact that they need to eb reapplied slows down your overall attack chain. Also, what level spawns are we fighting? How often are we missing? A missed buff can have a huge impact on the damage chain.
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I was not attempting a damage-over-time comparison. My calculations, you will no doubt have noticed, only account for damage-per-hit. Truth be told, the actual damage potential of a blaster varies greatly depending upon the build and the skill of the player, and much the same (though to a lesser degree) the damage of a defender. Any comparison of actual DPS will include projected attack chains, which is so subjective that it renders any conclusion inapplicable to most cases.
The purpose of this thread was to point out that there was still an offender who could attain blaster-level damage - which the devs have deliberately tried to prevent happening any more. Playing a kin/sonic is a hint of what the game was like pre-I5, so I thought I'd encourage as many people as possible to get their last taste before the devs nerf it. And if they don't nerf it, all the better.
~Gabriel
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Your entire argument is null and void if it doesnt apply to the actual game. Not taking in animation times is just as stupid as not taking in full slotting or so's vs do's vs to's. I mean, who cares if you can get close to baseline blaster damage in an ideal situation that can neer occur in game? Defenders were nerfed before because some could and did easily meet and surpass blaster damage in game, not becasue they could maybe get close if they pissed into he south winds at the same time as spitting into the north.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
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Sonics has a lower accuracy than Electric, I recall.
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Charged Bolt: 100%
Lightning Bolt: 100%
Ball Lightning: 100%
Short Circuit: 130%
Zapp: 120%
Tesla Cage: 100%
Thunderous Blast: 140%
Shriek: 100%
Scream: 100%
Howl: 100%
Shockwave: 90%
Shout: 100%
Sirens Song: 90%
Screech: 100%
Dreadful Wail: 140%
Sonics doesn't have *bad* accuracy, in general, but Electric has very good accuracy.
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What I don't understand is why these numbers (and for all other powers, for that matter) are not in the game to see when you select ATs/Powers/Enhancement slots. If not in the game itself, why not on the website for those who want to look them up. Ultimately, I would like to see the numbers put into an offical hero planner.
I have read in the past that States doesn't want the game to be 'numbers driven' where everyone goes cookie-cutter with their builds for optimization. But I just don't understand what is ok about people putting precious slots and enhancements into powers for practically no effect simply because they don't know any better, and simply saying that more than 3 slots of the same type becomes ineffective:
Combat jumping provides defense!! I'm gonna put 3 Defense Enhancements in it! Right?
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Oh great, this turned into an Accuracy whine thread, just like that.
Want better accuracy? Stop fighting Rikti, Council, and Circle of Thorns. :P
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Actually, it sounds like you're the one doing the whining here.
You think not fighting certain villain groups is the answer to possible powerset accuracy problems?? Think before you post, and come back later with a better comment.
I've been playing since COH beta, have approximately 50 alts, 1 50, 10 in the 30's-40's, 12 in the 20's, 11 in the teens, etc. I've played almost everyday since beta. I think I'm qualified with my observations of this game to give a valuable opinion.
I feel that the electricity blast powerset for blasters, AND defenders is overall less accurate than the other blast powersets. Maybe it is perceived, because of the animations. I dont know. I do know how it feels compared to all the other powersets I've played with. It does need further investigation. I like my lvl 35 dark/elec defender, as well as my lvl 25 elec/energy blaster. It's just discouraging when they seem to miss all the time.
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What I don't understand is why these numbers (and for all other powers, for that matter) are not in the game to see when you select ATs/Powers/Enhancement slots. If not in the game itself, why not on the website for those who want to look them up. Ultimately, I would like to see the numbers put into an offical hero planner.
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Some of them are available here.
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I have read in the past that States doesn't want the game to be 'numbers driven' where everyone goes cookie-cutter with their builds for optimization. But I just don't understand what is ok about people putting precious slots and enhancements into powers for practically no effect simply because they don't know any better, and simply saying that more than 3 slots of the same type becomes ineffective:
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From my understanding, Statesman played another game where all stats where given out, and those stats were completely useless. To paraphrase, it went something like "A Necklace of +4 Wisdom. What does Wisdom do, and why would I want more of it?".
In essence, CoH was supposed to get past that by making all mechanics very transparent and very organic. In some ways, it worked. Fire Tanker powers, for example, are extremely organic, as are current Regeneration powers. In some ways, it failed. Trick Archer or Storm Summoner, not so organic.
I think either the development team or the playerbase needs to band together and come up with a quick, easy way to present the basic statistics about current powers. Currently, the closest is Hero Planners, which aren't always up to date or perfect in concept.
What I'd really like to see is a revival of Featured Powers, but given that the page hasn't been updated since BETA, I doubt we could be so lucky. (seriously, "Lunge"?)
*meh.*
I will chime in as a highly sought after kin/dark.
I have recharges in every power
I stack my siphons
I have hasten.
The problem as I see it is that it takes 3 to 5 power activations to work into a fight. The very first one to get max damage will be Fulcrum Shift. I cannot emphasize enough how many times I have faceplanted trying to fulrcum and blackstar 4 or 5 even level Possessed Scientists. I tried a large variey of tactics.
Your idea works in a perfect world, with a perfect - ish build, versus the post 40 non-existent group of even level non- status effecting minions.
I've lived your theory. Good luck with that. Oh, BTW, by the time you achieve damage cap, you are dead, and then enemies are gone. Oh, and dont forget to actulally GET those stacked siphon speeds you spoke of in there. Between heal, transfer, Fulcrum and siphons, my solo combats are HORRIBLY long. Tortuously. Now toss me a pet stone tanker, though......
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Then why do I have such bad accuracy problems on my electricity blaster and defender?? More than any other powersets.
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It's all a matter of perception.
(No, not the Perception ingame.)
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I will admist it SEEMS as if my electric blaster and my storm/electric defender miss more than my other blasters but I tie that in a little bit to visual power effect.. When my NRG hits he often knocks back ( or down cause I hover alot ), Fire I see the DoT working when i hit. Elec really doesnt have an effect like that which reinforces the fact I am hitting.
I would like Castle to answer THIS question though. Why is it when Elec misses it LOOKS like I hit ?? this INFURIATES me to no end at times because it SEEMS like I am hitting a target when I am not. When other targets miss its blatantly obvious that you miss.. Why is Elec different in this aspect and can it be fixed ??
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Part of the problem is that Electric has NO miss animation. Hits and misses both connect as though the attack hit. The only way you can tell that a Miss occurred is that you did no damage and you see MISS on the screen.
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
if you guys want to outdamage blasters, make yourself a Fire/Kin troller
who lives in a pineapple under the sea?
I have a Sonic/Sonic Def (12), a Kinetic/Sonic Def(10), a Sonic/Kinetic Corr(26) and 2 sonic Blasters around 5. I've seriously thought of slottig brawl for damage since that is the most reliable attack any of them have, Even with the attacks 2 slotted with Acc DOs. Elec is a little better, but neither is as reliable as Dark Blast for accuracy overall. At least for me.
I think maybe Sonic doesn't suffer from the same acc bug that Dark Melee doesn't suffer from. You know where it takes 2 SO acc to hit a +2 minion reliably. 
My first short story (detective fiction) came out in Jan-2012. Other stories and books to follow, I hope. Because of "real writing". COH was a big part of that happening.
Just thought I'd chime in with a bit of psychology:
Humans, being omnivores, able to eat a varied diet, and being subject to predation by other animals, are geared to remember the BAD things that happen, so as to avoid them at alater date. Predators, on the other hand, remember the good hunting spots, the choicest prey, etc.
Thus, we recall when we miss, when we are defeated, etc. We don't remember the 3/4 times we hit, or the times when we kill an enemy in 1 shot, etc.
In short, don't talk about how it *seems* you miss a lot or how you *feel* this set has a lower accuracy. Run hero stats on sever thousand instances against the same enemy and same circumstances, then report your results...
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Siphon speed and Fulcrum shift putting anyone at a damage cap requires a lot of targets to hit simultaneously. The odds are against such a perfect environment to provide enough bad guys to achieve so many hits without oh, dying from all their damage "Indefinitely" is a big exaggeration due to that factor. "for a while when factors coincide" is a lot closer.
In large teams I find it hard to even get Fulcrum shift off versus each spawn of bad guys before the blasters and scrappers have already killed most of em. I'm lucky if the melee folks get 4 buffs from each Fulcrum Shift on average. That is far from keeping me at max damage.
Solo it'd be even harder as I'd have to somehow herd up three or four spawns to fulcrum shift from if I wanted to max my damage.
Not only that but blaster damage max is 5 x 100% = 500% whereas defender max damage is 4 x 66% = 264% -- not much more than half. And blasters can situationally maintain their damage near that cap with Defiance, which is only a little harder to do than to keep 10+ live mobs in Fulcrum-shifting range ... if that.
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I understand what you're saying, but your math is a bit off. A defender's damage cap is 4.00. With 3 dam SOs he'll be at 1.95. The personal boost (the one generated by the kineticist when FS goes off) is double what the others are worth. So that's 0.5 for yourself and 0.25 for every enemy. At that rate it only takes 6 enemies to cap a defender's damage via FS - and that's a single activation. If you have three enemies in two groups and two activations then you're actually over the cap by a fair amount. So it's quite easy to keep yourself capped in a solo mission.
Also, defiance is generally considered worthless. If you have an easy time as a level 30+ blaster keeping your damage perpetually capped via Defiance then you are very skilled indeed. If you want the general opinion about Defiance's usefulness, see the Blaster forum. For my own part: I pretend it doesn't even exist.
~Gabriel
[Edit: Even if you're taking it easy and not pushing things, using FS on a single group of three enemies will net you 1.95 + 0.50 + 0.75 = 3.2. Which still isn't very far from the damage cap. Considering that this is absolutely the very least you'll get out of Fulcrum Shift (assuming you're not totally incompetent)...]
Biostem for president.
My findings are that both my fire and sonics blasters and elec fender hits about as often. Heck my elec was doing a fair jobb in a group going against +4 (without me having any +acc buff) against even con i say it is gold. And i can't say i had to mutch problem with sonics either. Maybe there is something wrong with my game... :P 
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Then why do I have such bad accuracy problems on my electricity blaster and defender?? More than any other powersets.
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It's all a matter of perception.
(No, not the Perception ingame.)
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