Why you should go build a Kinetics/Sonics defender
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2006-03-26 22:15 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Allright, Gabe, now I'm jealous.
When Issue 6 hit, I posted this kind of post.
The devs stepped on it so hard I'm not sure that anyone read it.
I did really like how it turned out, though - I was fresh out of "uber" and hopping mad; the post was about as harsh as anything I've seen, but technically contained no profanity.
Good luck with your post! 
-> Scott.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
Perhaps I missed it, but did you account for animation csting times? Transfusion, transference, siphon speed/power and fulcrum shift have decent animation times, combined with the fact that they need to eb reapplied slows down your overall attack chain. Also, what level spawns are we fighting? How often are we missing? A missed buff can have a huge impact on the damage chain.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I missed it, but did you account for animation csting times? Transfusion, transference, siphon speed/power and fulcrum shift have decent animation times, combined with the fact that they need to eb reapplied slows down your overall attack chain. Also, what level spawns are we fighting? How often are we missing? A missed buff can have a huge impact on the damage chain.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was not attempting a damage-over-time comparison. My calculations, you will no doubt have noticed, only account for damage-per-hit. Truth be told, the actual damage potential of a blaster varies greatly depending upon the build and the skill of the player, and much the same (though to a lesser degree) the damage of a defender. Any comparison of actual DPS will include projected attack chains, which is so subjective that it renders any conclusion inapplicable to most cases.
The purpose of this thread was to point out that there was still an offender who could attain blaster-level damage - which the devs have deliberately tried to prevent happening any more. Playing a kin/sonic is a hint of what the game was like pre-I5, so I thought I'd encourage as many people as possible to get their last taste before the devs nerf it. And if they don't nerf it, all the better.
~Gabriel
[ QUOTE ]
I did not use Sonic blasters for comparison, this is true.
[/ QUOTE ]
You should. The BI of the Sonic attacks are lower than the rest of the primaries and it is also lacking in the AoE department. I actually think storm/sonic will out damage a kin/sonic becuase of the pets and lots of -def but i haven't ran any numbers. Regardless, kin/sonic is very far from being uber and surpressing blasters in damage.
Edit: Regarding your last post - There was one main reason why kin/ was doing good damage pre ED that would make blasters envy. With FS you could slot your nuke with all recharge and get about the same damage twice as fast as a blaster. It was good enough to take +2s.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I did not use Sonic blasters for comparison, this is true.
[/ QUOTE ]
You should. The BI of the Sonic attacks are lower than the rest of the primaries and it is also lacking in the AoE department. I actually think storm/sonic will out damage a kin/sonic becuase of the pets and lots of -def but i haven't ran any numbers. Regardless, kin/sonic is very far from being uber and surpressing blasters in damage.
Edit: Regarding your last post - There was one main reason why kin/ was doing good damage pre ED that would make blasters envy. With FS you could slot your nuke with all recharge and get about the same damage twice as fast as a blaster. It was good enough to take +2s.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, storm/sonic should do well for itself. In much the same manner that a fire/sonic controller does.
Regardless, you and many other people seem to have misinterpreted what I was about. I didn't use sonic blasters as an example because their damage is not standard for blasters - electric is. Electric blasters have no modifiers that might influence their overall damage scale, and since my goal was to compare kin/sonic with an imaginary "average" blaster, electric was more suitable.
~Gabriel
Electric Blast provides sub-par single-target and AoE damage compared to even Energy Blast.
And I've said it once before, so I'll say it once again : Do you honestly believe that Sonic Blasters do 112.5-125% of the damage done by other blasters?
[ QUOTE ]
Electric Blast provides sub-par single-target and AoE damage compared to even Energy Blast.
And I've said it once before, so I'll say it once again : Do you honestly believe that Sonic Blasters do 112.5-125% of the damage done by other blasters?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to be mean, but you're totally ignoring what I'm saying in every other post. I was comparing damage scalars...which is to say, damage-per-hit, not damage over time. Damage over time is so fluid and difficult to discuss mathematically with any relevancy to the actual performance of any AT or powerset as a whole that I wouldn't even bother with it.
We could discuss maximum outputs, of course, but considering the fact that most players don't know any numbers in-game, why bother? The situations I'm discussing with regard to kinetics and sonics are likely to occur with even the most casual gameplay. Stacking two Siphon Powers can be done by level 6 (once you get Siphon Speed), and Fulcrum Shifts tend to carry over from one group to the next, making it easy to cap your own damage.
Everyone seems to be trying to turn what I said into something I didn't. I was very specific about the parameters involved. If you want to create a thread addressing a different aspect of kinetics/sonics defender, be my guest, but don't try to call me to task for failing to do something I wasn't attempting.
~Gabriel
That's fine, if you want to make an isolated analysis of what a kin/ can or can't accomplish in terms of "damage-per-hit" then just address it as such. But you ended you post with this -
[ QUOTE ]
So. You should go roll a Kinetics/Sonics defender. Your damage will rival that of a blaster, and ultimately surpass it. Your buffs, debuffs, heals, and movement powers will make you an unequaled boon to any team you join.
Do it soon, because the devs are probably going to nerf us.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which to me seems to claim (and correct if i'm wrong) more than just "/kin can get a single target multiplier which is close to a blaster's".
[ QUOTE ]
I was comparing damage scalars...which is to say, damage-per-hit, not damage over time.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
.... Yes, you're reading that correctly. You'll be doing, sustainably, the same damage that the Blaster can only do with both Aim and Build-Up; both of which are only up about 1/4 of the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is true. You will be sustaining the same damage-per-hit that a blaster can only achieve via Build-Up and Aim.
Why is this so difficult?
~Gabriel
Because it looks like your posts are attempting to be deceptive?
You still haven't answered what the folks are fighting, the slotting of various powers, et cetera.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
You compared more than damage scalars, you spoke of sustained damage, noting that a Kineticist could sustain his max damage and the blaster could do it only when BU and AIM are up. That's a damage over time analysis, that you clearly indicated was in the favor of KIN.
Later, you claimed not to be looking at damage over time.
[ QUOTE ]
You compared more than damage scalars, you spoke of sustained damage, noting that a Kineticist could sustain his max damage and the blaster could do it only when BU and AIM are up. That's a damage over time analysis, that you clearly indicated was in the favor of KIN.
Later, you claimed not to be looking at damage over time.
[/ QUOTE ]
When you read the word damage, you think damage over time. That's fine, but that's not what I meant by it. When I compared sustainability, I said that the kinetics could maintain his damage indefinitely in comparison to the blaster, who could only keep his numbers that high while both Build-Up and Aim were active. Since all of my numbers only accounted for adjustments to damage-per-hit, I thought it would be painfully obvious what I was talking about. I don't assume my audience is stupid.
Frankly, you're reading what you want to read, not what I wrote. Start off with the assumption that I said exactly what I intended to, and you'll be on the right track.
~Gabriel
[ QUOTE ]
Because it looks like your posts are attempting to be deceptive?
You still haven't answered what the folks are fighting, the slotting of various powers, et cetera.
[/ QUOTE ]
It looks like I was trying to be deceptive about what? My numbers and my analyses are all totally consistent to what I was talking about. The fact that you want a different sort of analysis is completely not my problem.
I specified that they were both 3-slotted for damage, which even the most cursory glance at my calculations would make obvious. Any numbers person knows what 1.95 means in regards to CoH. Later, I mentioned that I assumed capped accuracy, since everyone and their dog caps accuracy at the later levels. Since I wasn't talking about projected attack chains, I said nothing whatsoever about slotting recharge or endred.
Honestly, this is ridiculous.
~Gabriel
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, this is ridiculous.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, extremist arguments and class v class comparisons on paper always are. But as we've seen, when your original argument doesn't hold up, you backfill desperately. And the tried and true Nerfherding tactic of Argumentum ad nauseam...wear your opponents out with dogged persistence, and no one will remember that your original op (as presented) is, in fact, wrong.
I see a kinetic-sonic as a solid and fun character to play, that may become uber once fulcrium shift is good to go. Of course, Fulcrum shift IS uber, really, all the mobs damage debuffed to oblivion and all the heroe's damage capped? nice.
Trivia: Fulcrum shift was nerfed early on. I believe the first version buffed and debuffed accuracy and defence to the floor/cieling..ON TOP of what it now does with damage! Fulcrum shift is uber now, but was MadcrazyUber in its early days. If my memory is correct.
What I recall of Fulcrum shift, was that it gave a buff for every mob hit in an area around the caster, and in the area around the mob being debuffed(called a barbell shape by many). If the kinetic were standing in melee range, you received two buffs for everything hit, and usually buffs across the screen...
I actually got my kinetic to Fulcrum shift level AFTER they changed it to ONE buff around the caster, plus buffs for every mob hit in melee range only. You still had buffs across the screen in many groups. People still asked, "what the H was that?!?"
<sigh> Ah the days before the AoE cap.
Now, with the caps on how many you can hit, it is much less powerful. Still a lovely power, mind you, but, less powerful than it was. To receive full benefit you have to be in melee range, but, that is very like many of the other kinetic powers like transfusion and transference.
as to sustaining high damage...a kinetic's damage is increased by adding the kin powers to the attack chain. The kinetic powers to no damage on their own. If every other power you strike with is doing no damage(my attack chain includes transference, fulcrum shift, siphon speed, and transfusion when I need it. siphon power when nothing else is available.), how can I be doing more damage than a blaster who has a longer attack chain and more attacks to hit with? I have fun, don't get me wrong, I just don't happen to see how I am aproaching blaster damage over time.
Shae Firewarder
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You compared more than damage scalars, you spoke of sustained damage, noting that a Kineticist could sustain his max damage and the blaster could do it only when BU and AIM are up. That's a damage over time analysis, that you clearly indicated was in the favor of KIN.
Later, you claimed not to be looking at damage over time.
[/ QUOTE ]
When you read the word damage, you think damage over time. That's fine, but that's not what I meant by it. When I compared sustainability, I said that the kinetics could maintain his damage indefinitely in comparison to the blaster, who could only keep his numbers that high while both Build-Up and Aim were active. Since all of my numbers only accounted for adjustments to damage-per-hit, I thought it would be painfully obvious what I was talking about. I don't assume my audience is stupid.
Frankly, you're reading what you want to read, not what I wrote. Start off with the assumption that I said exactly what I intended to, and you'll be on the right track.
~Gabriel
[/ QUOTE ]
No, it's words like sustain and indefinitely that bring in the time element. Words YOU are using, not me.
And I think you must assume your audience is stupid if you think they won't see though such transparent attempts to pretend that you were not drawing a comparison of damage over time when you used such words.
Simply speaking, you are making it entirely clear that you are not interested in any kind of realistic/balanced analysis of a kin/sonic to a blaster, and have gone so far to attack the legitimacy of DoT analysis, tell people to go make another threads, and now a none-too-veiled implication that people who don't agree with you are stupid. All in reaciton to people who insist on giving a fuller picture of how the two stack up.
That's a clear sign of a person with an agenda as opposed to someone who wishes to seek truth.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to be mean, but you're totally ignoring what I'm saying in every other post. I was comparing damage scalars...which is to say, damage-per-hit, not damage over time. Damage over time is so fluid and difficult to discuss mathematically with any relevancy to the actual performance of any AT or powerset as a whole that I wouldn't even bother with it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, you said not long ago that you were comparing damage per hit. So which is it? Meaningless description A, or B? If your model is correct, it must be correct whether the Sonic Blast is in the hands of the Blaser or Defender.
Again, do you think a Sonic blaster does 112.5% - 125% of the damage of other blasters?
If so, we obviously have an overpowered set on our hands, and that'll be reined in anyway. If not, you're blowing smoke out your [censored] just to nerfherd.
I am sorry but your analysis is over simplified.
1) Fulcrum shift does not magicly put you at the cap just because you activate it. It gives about 15% increase for each mob that it effects. So with a standard 3 mob grouping you are only going to get about +45% increase from it. Also it has been a while since i played my kinetic but I am pretty sure it can not be ran perma. which cuts into the whole sustainable thing. In order to max out you need a large number of mobs. which brings me to point 2
2) damage cap: blasters and scrappers have a higher damage cap than all other classes.
3) In order to get a high damage number from fulcrum shift you need to have alot of mobs and kinetics are great at debuffing a single target but does not offer alot to deal with large groups but that is where the cone sleep comes in handy. But to get the most out of the cone sleep you should use only your single target attacks so you dont wake everybody up and AOEs play a huge role in sustainable dps. Since the magic word is sustainable lets go to number 4
4) Attack chains: Lets say you are in a mission running from 3 person mob to next 3 person mob and so on. sonic def is looking at 1 minor, 1 med and 1 high damage. Since the recharges are inverse of the damage you will be shooting off your minor the most followed by your med then high. It would take about 1 high, 2 med and 1 minor to get about the same damage that a blaster gets from 1 total focus. Bone smasher does about as much as a high and medium attack combined. So even if a def had similar multipliers, to match a blasters 3 single target blast + 2 melee attacks a defender would need 3 high 4 medium and 2 low attacks that is 5 blaster attacks vs 9 defender attacks. [note: i did not bother to even include AOEs]
So in conclusion, fulcrum shift is not perma, the only way to survive the number of mobs needed to hit the damage cap with fulcrum shift is on a team and the number of attacks it would take to compensate for a blasters secondary would require much more time.
[ QUOTE ]
No, it's words like sustain and indefinitely that bring in the time element. Words YOU are using, not me.
And I think you must assume your audience is stupid if you think they won't see though such transparent attempts to pretend that you were not drawing a comparison of damage over time when you used such words.
Simply speaking, you are making it entirely clear that you are not interested in any kind of realistic/balanced analysis of a kin/sonic to a blaster, and have gone so far to attack the legitimacy of DoT analysis, tell people to go make another threads, and now a none-too-veiled implication that people who don't agree with you are stupid. All in reaciton to people who insist on giving a fuller picture of how the two stack up.
That's a clear sign of a person with an agenda as opposed to someone who wishes to seek truth.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll say this just once more, and then I'm done.
Sustain. The same level. Of damage. Per hit.
I.E. The blaster boosts himself with Aim and Build-Up. He goes from 1.95 to 1.95 + 1.00 + 62.5. The kineticist, on the other hand, does not have downtime. The duration of Fulcrum Shift is 45 seconds, while with proper slotting and Siphon Speed (usually stacked) several FSs can go off in that time. Meaning that the kineticist can operate at his damage cap indefinitely.
Not addressing you specifically, Pil, but I don't understand how people can assume that I was deliberately being misleading. Aside from being rude, it doesn't reflect what I was saying.
~Gabriel
[ QUOTE ]
Sonics has a lower accuracy than Electric, I recall.
[/ QUOTE ]
Charged Bolt: 100%
Lightning Bolt: 100%
Ball Lightning: 100%
Short Circuit: 130%
Zapp: 120%
Tesla Cage: 100%
Thunderous Blast: 140%
Shriek: 100%
Scream: 100%
Howl: 100%
Shockwave: 90%
Shout: 100%
Sirens Song: 90%
Screech: 100%
Dreadful Wail: 140%
Sonics doesn't have *bad* accuracy, in general, but Electric has very good accuracy.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sonics has a lower accuracy than Electric, I recall.
[/ QUOTE ]
Charged Bolt: 100%
Lightning Bolt: 100%
Ball Lightning: 100%
Short Circuit: 130%
Zapp: 120%
Tesla Cage: 100%
Thunderous Blast: 140%
Shriek: 100%
Scream: 100%
Howl: 100%
Shockwave: 90%
Shout: 100%
Sirens Song: 90%
Screech: 100%
Dreadful Wail: 140%
Sonics doesn't have *bad* accuracy, in general, but Electric has very good accuracy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then why do I have such bad accuracy problems on my electricity blaster and defender?? More than any other powersets.
Oh great, this turned into an Accuracy whine thread, just like that.
Want better accuracy? Stop fighting Rikti, Council, and Circle of Thorns. :P
[ QUOTE ]
Heh..... ask any fire/fire blaster. you'd be suprised what you can do without a secondary.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fire/ is good enough to stand on its own.
~Gabriel