Why you should go build a Kinetics/Sonics defender
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2006-03-26 22:15 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
[ QUOTE ]
Pilcrow, I don't think my presentation was all that off.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, your pre-fulcrum analysis was.
[ QUOTE ]
All in all, what I was attempting to underline was the fact that this combination can do everything (except AoE damage, really).
[/ QUOTE ]
It's pretty weak at protecting teammates. Heals them well, but that's far from complete protection.
[ QUOTE ]
It has the staying power of a regen scrapper
[/ QUOTE ]
Hyperbole
[ QUOTE ]
the damage of a blaster (or nearly)
[/ QUOTE ]
When solo post fulcrum. On a team a fulcrumed blaster will outpace them significantly.
[ QUOTE ]
and the team-buffs and utility of a radiation defender to boot.
[/ QUOTE ]
MORE utility than a RAD (but less control/debuff)
[ QUOTE ]
To be honest, the whole thing was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I assumed that much of my audience would already be in the know, so I figured I might as well have fun with it. Truth be told, kinetics defenders are tank-mages, and I'm tired of people denying it. 
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, they can join the club:
[*]Spines Scrappers[*]Ice Blasters[*]Fire controllers[*]Kin Defenders <---Just added at the request of Gabriel
I have a kin/sonic. Great combo, I agree. I also have an elec/elec blapper. Both are around the same levels.
Solo under normal situation, even with FS, the blapper outdamages the kin/sonic.
Teamed under normal situation, even with FS, the blapper outdamages the kin/sonic.
This is so, even though my blaster has a supposedly weak damage primary, and has chosen to diversify into some more "supportish" powers which has caused his potential damage output to drop somewhat.
Why is this so? Even though the kin/sonic can achieve higher sustainable damage to reach it requires pre-buffing in its attack chain. The blapper, with aim+buildup up at the start of every battle, delivers a lot more burst damage while lacking sustainable damage. Sustainable damage does not matter if your burst damage has already delivered most of the damage required to bring a spawn down.
However, I will admit that:
Solo under normal situation, kin/sonic is much safer than blapper
Teamed under normal situation, kin/sonic is much safer than blapper
Teamed under normal situation, kin/sonic provides more *group damage* than blapper
Teamed under abnormal situation (ultra high cons) kin/sonic is safer than, provides more group damage, contributes more to the team well-being than the blapper
And:
Teamed under abnormal situation, a kin/sonic can *potentially* outdamage a blapper.
- Abnormal team situation A, not enough damage dealers but lots of damage mitigation. Woohoo, mini-blaster time. I like blowing things up too.
- Abnormal team situation B, cons are too high and team isn't doing well. Kin/sonic will be busy trying to keep everyone alive to spam the sonic blasts with their lousy animations. Shout really locks you up for too long for example. Anyway, just too busy healing, debuffing and buffing to leverage that Fulcrum shift. Do that and soon you'll find everyone in your team dead, and at that point what use is all that damage?
Last of all:
Blapper on same team with kin/sonic will outdamage kin/sonic any time, if the kin/sonic is any good (weirdoes who think they are "kinetic healers" *puke*, and nasties who let the entire team die while they are doing their own soloing do not count)
"Honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty." -- Plato
Playing Gods (51106) - Heroic Lvl 5-20
What Rough Beast (255143) - Villainous Lvl 40-50
[ QUOTE ]
Anyhow, have fun doing that, but realize that if you're ever on a team with a Blaster, by buffing him with stuff like Speed Boost, siphon power, and debuffing the resistance of the enemies, you're transferring all those buffs you're enjoying solo to him, and that Blaster has a 500% cap.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is that before or after he screams "heal me" as he's running for the nearest elevator with 6 +3 mobs in hot pursuit?
Please buff Ice Control.
[ QUOTE ]
It's pretty weak at protecting teammates. Heals them well, but that's far from complete protection.
[/ QUOTE ]
You must be joking. This game is about damage - offense truly is the best defense. With Speed Boost, Siphon Power, and Fulcrum Shift (with Transference from time to time), a kinetics is arguably assuring the success of his team in ways unachievable by any other support character.
It all depends on how you define defense, I suppose. Whether defended or buffed, the end goal is to kill things before they kill you. I'd rather kill things faster than kill them at the same speed more safely.
~Gabriel
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's pretty weak at protecting teammates. Heals them well, but that's far from complete protection.
[/ QUOTE ]
You must be joking. This game is about damage - offense truly is the best defense. With Speed Boost, Siphon Power, and Fulcrum Shift (with Transference from time to time), a kinetics is arguably assuring the success of his team in ways unachievable by any other support character.
It all depends on how you define defense, I suppose. Whether defended or buffed, the end goal is to kill things before they kill you. I'd rather kill things faster than kill them at the same speed more safely.
~Gabriel
[/ QUOTE ]
OK, if you're going to take the "Best Defense is a Good Offense" line, then we're turning protection and defense into semantically null words. Offense != Defense. Killing things quickly may be a great strategy to pursue, but it doesn't turn offense into defense.
Fulcrum can take a huge dent out of an entire spawn's offense. I think we're pretty well in agreement about how powerful a post-fulcrum KIN is.
Pre fulcrum
[*]Great Heal[*]Siphon Power decreases 1 MOB by 25%[*]A decent KB aura, if you can risk melee[*]Slow one opponent[*]Mez protections/limited RES that can't be kept up on a team[*]End drain a single foe
Compare that to any other Defender, there's just no comparison. KIN offers less protection than any other Defender set - which is perfectly appropriate for what it's built to do.
"I'd rather kill things faster than kill them at the same speed more safely" is a perfect motto for KIN. KIN provides very little on the safety side for a Defender set. It speeds up offense, and offers minimal protection for a buff/debuff set. That doesn't make it bad. But it does make my quote above quite true.
You still are going to have to take the superjump pool for acrobatics, or else you are going to be the fastest peep always on your A@#. Even while hover and flying that spin around from knockback/down can be quick death.
Very interesting math, I would like to see how a Kin/sonic defender compares with its corruptor version.
I am PL in RL.
Freedom- Magnet Man, Hott Sauce, Stand-Up Comic
I love Kinetics, and have a Kinetics defender, a Kinetics Controller, and even a Sonic/Kinetics Corruptor.
But this whole thing is hyperbole. You can downplay the fact that Blasters can fill in a chain while the Kinetics guy is buffing all you want, but the fact of the matter is that those extra Blaster attacks will make up the difference and more.
Frankly, I think you are just trolling, yet you accuse others of it.
Sorry Sinistar, quoted you and not the original poster...
What slotting was being used for the Sonic and the Elec blasts?
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, you left out defiance.
[/ QUOTE ]
muwghahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahah ahahahahah *gasp* bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah*wheeze*ha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...
man that's a good one. I wish the dev's had left it out.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyhow, have fun doing that, but realize that if you're ever on a team with a Blaster, by buffing him with stuff like Speed Boost, siphon power, and debuffing the resistance of the enemies, you're transferring all those buffs you're enjoying solo to him, and that Blaster has a 500% cap.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is that before or after he screams "heal me" as he's running for the nearest elevator with 6 +3 mobs in hot pursuit?
[/ QUOTE ]
That doesn't really happen all too often past the Hollows. Seriously.
Especially in the 25+ range. The higher you go, the more you're liable to find paranoid Blasters that won't even stay on your team unless they believe they have enough mitigation and aggro control to allow them to blast safely.
AOE types like Fire/ or Archery/ in those ranges are espeically paranoid about aggro, and will not attack a spawn unless it's been taunted or controlled enough to where they know they'll survive.
Arc Salvo: Okay hold one sec guys, we can't just rush in blindly vs these Nemesis, they've got these ranged aoe's tha-
Teammate1(charging in): Shut up, Arc Salvo, you lame*$% Viewtiful Joe wannabe! What do you know?!
Teammate2(also charging): yeah, ST#& arc salvo u PWR RANGR U!
Arc Salvo: *sigh*
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's pretty weak at protecting teammates. Heals them well, but that's far from complete protection.
[/ QUOTE ]
You must be joking. This game is about damage - offense truly is the best defense. With Speed Boost, Siphon Power, and Fulcrum Shift (with Transference from time to time), a kinetics is arguably assuring the success of his team in ways unachievable by any other support character.
It all depends on how you define defense, I suppose. Whether defended or buffed, the end goal is to kill things before they kill you. I'd rather kill things faster than kill them at the same speed more safely.
~Gabriel
[/ QUOTE ]
I somewhat agree, but have to qualify your statement by saying that Offense is the best defense if you can survive the incoming damage while you're killing them faster.
This can be as little as surviving the alpha strike before flattening everything but the Lt's (or sometimes even the LT's) on a good offensive team, but if you can't survive the incoming damage long enough to leverage your own insane damage potential, I find that defense > offense, which you see more in COV than COH.
Man, the second-rate or nonexistent buff-debuff/control/tanking in COV can make for some very inefficient or outright gimpy teams compared to COH.
And all these ignorant people saying "this mission's too easy, let's add 3 people who don't contribute any damage mitigation whatsoever, but tons of +con enemies AND increase the difficulty level"
...and then they're shocked when the first spawn kills the entire team, even with "pulling".
Sorry, just rambling.
Arc Salvo: Okay hold one sec guys, we can't just rush in blindly vs these Nemesis, they've got these ranged aoe's tha-
Teammate1(charging in): Shut up, Arc Salvo, you lame*$% Viewtiful Joe wannabe! What do you know?!
Teammate2(also charging): yeah, ST#& arc salvo u PWR RANGR U!
Arc Salvo: *sigh*
Actually, Pilcrow, I am indeed saying that Offense = Defense. Blasters know this intuitively - defeating something before it has a chance to inflict damage is often better than defeating it more slowly without risk.
In case you need proof, compare pre-18 claws and broadsword scrappers. You know the rest.
~Gabriel
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, just rambling.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's OK, I prefer your rambling to the peanut gallery calling me a troll. 
~Gabriel
Okay.
Step 1 : Know what you're talking about.
For starters, the resistance debuff on Sonic Blasts is -20% for Defenders and -12 - 13% for Blasters (roughly 1.6 scalar).
Step 2 : Compare similar capabilities.
Last I checked, there were Sonic Blasters. They get 12.5% per debuff, but it's still notable, and a much more apt comparision than generic Blasters.
You'll also find that Sonic Blasters can do 4.468 scalar damage 'burst', compared to a damage-capped Kin/Sonic who will do 3.6 scalar.
Even if you go by average, with an estimate of +100% * 10/45 (Build Up * availability) + 62.5% * 10/45 (Amplify * availability), you'll find the Sonic Blaster doing ~2.8 scalar, and compared to a *normal* value for Kin/Sonic Blast being ~2.5.
Step 3 : Include values that you know.
Er, comparing two full powersets to one full powerset and a single power? Any possible problems here? I hate to point it out, but even FCS vastly shifts this combination, nevermind actually useful powers. And, sure, you can say that you're ignoring Kinetics powers (which alone is a problem), but outside a good FS, the kin/ powers won't buff damage significantly, while Total Focus most definetely will.
Step 4 : Think before typing.
In particular, something that requires you to stand in the middle of ~10 enemies for 3 seconds minimum is not overly sustainable.
Remember that the aggro metric for Defenders is significantly higher than that for Blasters.
And remember that Defenders have 84% of the health of a Blaster, and kinetics defenders have very little survivability through their primary powers against multiple targets.
*that's not to say I don't expect the sonic blast powerset to be nerfed. A viable control in Defender hands won't last long, and neither will the base 70% of Blaster damage Sonic Blast allows.*
EDIT: corrected grammar : mechanic to metric.
Also included more information on resistance debuff in Sonic Blast.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, Pilcrow, I am indeed saying that Offense = Defense. Blasters know this intuitively - defeating something before it has a chance to inflict damage is often better than defeating it more slowly without risk.
In case you need proof, compare pre-18 claws and broadsword scrappers. You know the rest.
~Gabriel
[/ QUOTE ]
Now you're just getting silly. Just because one side effect of good offense is damage mitigation via defeat doesn't make offense and defense equivalent concepts. My anithistamine may causes drowsiness, that doesn't make allerest a sleeping pill.
Sometimes offense > defense, sometimes defense > offense, but never are they exactly the same thing. Offense does not protect you from incoming damage. Defense does not defeate foes.
It's grand you like offense heavy tactics. Get them before they get you is a perfectly valid play strategy. But it doesn't make defense = offense.
In case you need proof, compare a tanker or controller soloing an AV to a Blaster doing it. You know the rest.
[ QUOTE ]
Okay.
Step 1 : Know what you're talking about.
For starters, the resistance debuff on Sonic Blasts is -20% for Defenders and -12 - 13% for Blasters (roughly 1.6 scalar).
Step 2 : Compare similar capabilities.
Last I checked, there were Sonic Blasters. They get 12.5% per debuff, but it's still notable, and a much more apt comparision than generic Blasters.
You'll also find that Sonic Blasters can do 4.468 scalar damage 'burst', compared to a damage-capped Kin/Sonic who will do 3.6 scalar.
Even if you go by average, with an estimate of +100% * 10/45 (Build Up * availability) + 62.5% * 10/45 (Amplify * availability), you'll find the Sonic Blaster doing ~2.8 scalar, and compared to a *normal* value for Kin/Sonic Blast being ~2.5.
Step 3 : Include values that you know.
Er, comparing two full powersets to one full powerset and a single power? Any possible problems here? I hate to point it out, but even FCS vastly shifts this combination, nevermind actually useful powers. And, sure, you can say that you're ignoring Kinetics powers (which alone is a problem), but outside a good FS, the kin/ powers won't buff damage significantly, while Total Focus most definetely will.
Step 4 : Think before typing.
In particular, something that requires you to stand in the middle of ~10 enemies for 3 seconds minimum is not overly sustainable.
Remember that the aggro metric for Defenders is significantly higher than that for Blasters.
And remember that Defenders have 84% of the health of a Blaster, and kinetics defenders have very little survivability through their primary powers against multiple targets.
*that's not to say I don't expect the sonic blast powerset to be nerfed. A viable control in Defender hands won't last long, and neither will the base 70% of Blaster damage Sonic Blast allows.*
EDIT: corrected grammar : mechanic to metric.
Also included more information on resistance debuff in Sonic Blast.
[/ QUOTE ]
I used information on the sonic debuff as provided by the CoH Hero Builder. I don't believe the difference is all that significant - if anything, it only supports my assertion, and I'm usually careful to err on the side of caution.
I did not use Sonic blasters for comparison, this is true. Because, as you will no doubt have noticed, I was not comparing kinetics defenders and blasters. I was comparing Kinetics/Sonics defenders and blasters. It should be obvious that I was more interested in examining whether a kin/sonic defender could attain the level of damage-per-hit which a blaster is capable of in general.
I find your entire post condescending; you don't seem to have made any attempt to be polite. Nothing I said in my original post is untrue. A kinetics/sonics defender can and will compare well with a blaster. That fact is undeniable. I made specific mention when I was using extreme examples, which fact you have ignored.
I did not misrepresent the situations for which I was making calculations. I did not posit situations that are unlikely to occur in casual gameplay. I did not impune your personal honor, nor attack anyone at all in the text of my original post. Your puerile attitude is totally uncalled for.
~Gabriel
I'm an [censored]. Do I need to put it in my signature?
Look, unless you want to claim that Sonic/ Blasters do a full 13% - 25% more damage than any other blast set, you've got to assume that they're doing less damage then normal Blast sets before factoring resistance debuffs in.
Otherwise, you're just being intetionally misleading.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, just rambling.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's OK, I prefer your rambling to the peanut gallery calling me a troll.
~Gabriel
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, don't worry about 'em. Either got agendas they're trying to forward, or have honest differences in perspective that are valid, that you may not be seeing, or they aren't seeing your perspective.
In any case, Pilcrow's talking about how Kinetics isn't as good as other defenders at preventing incoming damage from killing you IF the enemies are powerful enough that Kinetics/'s heal and debuffs aren't enough to keep the team from dying before they can use the uber damage buffing to wipe out the spawn.
In those cases, another Defender with more powerful team damage mitigation would be better.
You seem to be talking about how Kinetics/ is superior to those defenders when the team has enough surviveability already (including what Kinetics/ provides) to where the damage buffing can actually kill the spawn before damage over time becomes a factor.
By Pilcrow's definition (I believe) he's excluding your ideal situation for Kin/. He's not arguing that damage can't be mitigation, just that damage is only mitigation if you can survive long enough to use it as mitigation, as I said.
As for Blueeyed, he's a guy I respect and like in general, but I think he took your post a bit personally, despite its light-hearted intent, and your admission that Sonic/Kin is competitive with Blasters with potentially more versatility and surviveability.
I honestly don't think that this topic is getting worked up over, because there are real problems in the world that are getting worked over about that I think more people should pay attention to, but that's just me. I also believe that we should try to be more civil and understanding towards each other than we are because I honestly think that most of the world's problems stem from the fact that people just don't care about other people as much as they should, and that everyone would be better off if they put more effort into caring for the people around them rather than trying to forward their own agendas.
Not to say that people shouldn't express or opinion or try to prove their points when they think that they have a good point to make, just that they shouldn't care about their opinion so much that they're willing to disdain or act maliciously against other people because they care more about their opinions than they do about other people.
I'm not trying to condemn anyone by saying this, just trying to express that the world'd be a lot better of a place to live in if our biggest priority was trying to help our fellow man or woman, and I guess by association, so would the forums.
Arc Salvo: Okay hold one sec guys, we can't just rush in blindly vs these Nemesis, they've got these ranged aoe's tha-
Teammate1(charging in): Shut up, Arc Salvo, you lame*$% Viewtiful Joe wannabe! What do you know?!
Teammate2(also charging): yeah, ST#& arc salvo u PWR RANGR U!
Arc Salvo: *sigh*
[ QUOTE ]
In any case, Pilcrow's talking about how Kinetics isn't as good as other defenders at preventing incoming damage from killing you IF the enemies are powerful enough that Kinetics/'s heal and debuffs aren't enough to keep the team from dying before they can use the uber damage buffing to wipe out the spawn.
In those cases, another Defender with more powerful team damage mitigation would be better.
[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed. And there's a world of difference in how well Kinetics can debuff pre and post fulcrum. All the debuffs before that point are 1 on 1. If you're having trouble surviving the spawn, a Kinetics is the last defender you want to recruit, minimum protection. But if you're surviving the spawn well, no-one else can augment your offense better.
Kinetics/Sonic is a fabulous offender build, and post-32, its as much offense as anyone could want. That's reason enough to roll one. There's no need to go overboard to make the case for rolling one, there are enough good reasons.
I'd put calling offense defense, glossing over the limitations pre-32, and ignoring relevant factors in a comparison to blasters into "going overboard". That's my only qualm with this whole thread, whose essence (Kin/sonic is a VERY nice build) I completely agree with.
[ QUOTE ]
You seem to be talking about how Kinetics/ is superior to those defenders when the team has enough surviveability already (including what Kinetics/ provides) to where the damage buffing can actually kill the spawn before damage over time becomes a factor.
By Pilcrow's definition (I believe) he's excluding your ideal situation for Kin/. He's not arguing that damage can't be mitigation, just that damage is only mitigation if you can survive long enough to use it as mitigation, as I said.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I'm exclusing the ideal situation, I'm just against calling it defense, much the way many are against calling range defense. Fast kills mitigate damage, but that doesn't make them defense. You have to draw line betwee the two concepts somewhere or you can't speak intelligently. By the definition used here, Blasters have the best defense in the whole game.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, Pilcrow, I am indeed saying that Offense = Defense. Blasters know this intuitively - defeating something before it has a chance to inflict damage is often better than defeating it more slowly without risk.
In case you need proof, compare pre-18 claws and broadsword scrappers. You know the rest.
[/ QUOTE ]
1) How does a "pre-18 claws vs. broadsword" argument help? I'm honestly mystified. Is this "Broadsword is throwing in Parry for safety?" Or "Claws has two of the worst attacks in the game, possibly in the world, before level 18 and is getting a complete restructure in I7?" Go ahead. Spell it out for me.
2) "Blasters know this intuitively"- have you READ the Blaster boards? They've been screaming for nearly two years that their secondaries provide no defense. They're not wrong.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
[ QUOTE ]
Truth be told, kinetics defenders are tank-mages, and I'm tired of people denying it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Personally, I'm always going to deny that ANY AT without status protection is any kind of tank-mage.
Maybe mage. Maybe APV-mage. Maybe mobile artillery battery. Pick anything with a BIT of armor and firepower. But not a Tank.
No matter what the offense, long as you're succeptible to a single mez Holding you in melee range so that the Rikti swords come out as you're thinking "This could hurt a bit", you're not a tank.
I really have little problem with all of the squishy builds that outdamage any melee build, since they lack personal defense (defense that works all the time, no matter what the mob's location, position, or numbers are), and they lack status protection. Well, at least until someone shows me a FF or Sonic Resonance character who has "mage" offense.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I'm exclusing the ideal situation, I'm just against calling it defense, much the way many are against calling range defense. Fast kills mitigate damage, but that doesn't make them defense. You have to draw line betwee the two concepts somewhere or you can't speak intelligently. By the definition used here, Blasters have the best defense in the whole game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, OK. I see our problem.
I tend to look at the Offense/Defense question as part of a larger issue: your damage as a percentage of their survivability versus their damage as a percentage of your survivability. Thus, increasing either Offense or Defense gives you an edge - and I tend to view increasing one or the other as being roughly equal, since the end result is usually the same. In this game, increasing offense is usually preferable.
~Gabriel
[ QUOTE ]
1) How does a "pre-18 claws vs. broadsword" argument help? I'm honestly mystified. Is this "Broadsword is throwing in Parry for safety?" Or "Claws has two of the worst attacks in the game, possibly in the world, before level 18 and is getting a complete restructure in I7?" Go ahead. Spell it out for me.
2) "Blasters know this intuitively"- have you READ the Blaster boards? They've been screaming for nearly two years that their secondaries provide no defense. They're not wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
A broadsword has better survivability pre-18 (at which level Claws gets Focus). Frontloaded damage is a very good form of defense.
And actually, Blasters DO admit that their secondary gives them increased survivability. If they didn't then /nrg and /elec would not be preferable to /fire. I'd be interested to see how well a Blaster would do if they took no powers whatsoever from their secondary.
~Gabriel
Heh..... ask any fire/fire blaster. you'd be suprised what you can do without a secondary.
Pilcrow, I don't think my presentation was all that off. To wit:
- Nearly or equal to blaster damage (not damage over time, perhaps, but per hit).
- Powerful AoE heal.
- Infinite endurance post-28 via Transference.
- Siphon Speed. Needs no comment, yes?
- etc.
All in all, what I was attempting to underline was the fact that this combination can do everything (except AoE damage, really). It has the staying power of a regen scrapper, the damage of a blaster (or nearly), and the team-buffs and utility of a radiation defender to boot.
To be honest, the whole thing was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I assumed that much of my audience would already be in the know, so I figured I might as well have fun with it. Truth be told, kinetics defenders are tank-mages, and I'm tired of people denying it.
~Gabriel