Why you should go build a Kinetics/Sonics defender
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2006-03-26 22:15 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Hmmm. So, your sustainable damage as a kin/sonic defender - that is, your personal sustainable damage - is within a hair's breadth of the blasters. And this is before level 32 and Fulcrum Shift... Hmmmmmmmm.
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Specious conclusion. Your premise includes two (2) siphon powers at all times. That means your attack chain is roughly half as efficient as the blaster's...because you need to toss a SP in there throughout your chain to keep yourself doubled.
The rest of your thesis suffers from similar logic errors...but then most class v class comparisons do tend to ignore the little details in order to do a little nerf herding.
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Hmmm. So, your sustainable damage as a kin/sonic defender - that is, your personal sustainable damage - is within a hair's breadth of the blasters. And this is before level 32 and Fulcrum Shift... Hmmmmmmmm.
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Specious conclusion. Your premise includes two (2) siphon powers at all times. That means your attack chain is roughly half as efficient as the blaster's...because you need to toss a SP in there throughout your chain to keep yourself doubled.
The rest of your thesis suffers from similar logic errors...but then most class v class comparisons do tend to ignore the little details in order to stretch to cover the premise in order to do a little nerf herding.
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I wasn't ignoring any details. Note that I didn't intimate parity - I merely pointed out that your damage scale was within a hair's breadth. My conclusion for post-32 damage is much more final, and it is supportable.
First of all, a single Fulcrum Shift takes you to the cap. No real diminution of attack chain for that. The sonic debuffs are automatic to the attacks, so no time lost to those. Siphon Speed need only be cast once every 60 seconds to maintain (though stacking it is a good idea). Also, my end thesis includes the fact that Siphon Speed makes the Defender's attack chain much more efficient than that of the blaster - which is to say, your high-BI attacks will comprise a greater portion of the attack chain.
If you're going to call me illogical, back it up by pointing out specific fallacies. If you don't then you're simply trolling.
~Gabriel
I'm not even going to question you math.... because Simply put... I don't care. But if I were you I'd avoid public displays of how "geat" a power combo is. You're attracting the nerf happy goons who run this game. Now scrap all this talk of defenders almost reaching blaster damage levels and get back to bashing vigilance.
Oh and by the way... those travel powers.
superjump is miles better than that kinetics power that mimics it.
and siphon speed.... see here's the problem with it. it can miss, draws aggro.... and while it gives you comparable speed to superspeed it gives you none of the stealth. making it potentially dangerous to the user. Don't get me wrong... nice powers... but not real replacements for travel powers.
The Kinetics/Sonic is awesome, no question about that. However, it has a couple of serous disadvantages.
* You need to be at melee range to fully benefit from Fulcum Shift
* Sonics lacks the powers to form a real attack chain. You can fill it out with melee pool attacks, but those won't debuff resistance.
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and siphon speed.... see here's the problem with it. it can miss, draws aggro.... and while it gives you comparable speed to superspeed it gives you none of the stealth. making it potentially dangerous to the user. Don't get me wrong... nice powers... but not real replacements for travel powers.
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Siphon speed is really good for two things: (A) Giving Hover a tolerable speed, now that you no longer can 6-slot it, and (B) slowing down opponents who otherwise run all over the map.
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* You need to be at melee range to fully benefit from Fulcum Shift
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Which'll go nicely with Sonics sleep cone attack 
Sonics has a lower accuracy than Electric, I recall.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
Also, you left out defiance.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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Also, you left out defiance.
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Oh my, I nearly busted a rib! You should take that act on the road.
~Gabriel 
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Siphon speed is really good for two things: (A) Giving Hover a tolerable speed, now that you no longer can 6-slot it, and (B) slowing down opponents who otherwise run all over the map.
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Hm, you and I disagree there. Siphon Speed has a nice +recharge component, which is very useful in combination with Hasten. This also solves the problem of Sonics not being very good at maintaining an attack chain. Stacked Siphon Speed + Hasten + a rechred in each attack is mighty fine.
~Gabriel
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Oh and by the way... those travel powers.
superjump is miles better than that kinetics power that mimics it.
and siphon speed.... see here's the problem with it. it can miss, draws aggro.... and while it gives you comparable speed to superspeed it gives you none of the stealth. making it potentially dangerous to the user. Don't get me wrong... nice powers... but not real replacements for travel powers.
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I disagree.
~Gabriel
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Sonics has a lower accuracy than Electric, I recall.
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Meaningless at high levels, when everyone caps accuracy anyway.
At least, I cap accuracy at high levels. If other people don't, that's their problem. 
~Gabriel
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But if I were you I'd avoid public displays of how "great" a power combo is. You're attracting the nerf happy goons who run this game. Now scrap all this talk of defenders almost reaching blaster damage levels and get back to bashing vigilance.
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Actually, surpassing blaster damage levels. And I don't think they're going to nerf anything else. Fulcrum Shift has been the best power in the game forever, and it hasn't been nerfed. And given their recent unwillingness to nerf Energy Melee despite its overwhelming superiority in PvP, I think their nerfing days are done.
Of course, if they want to prove me wrong then I'm more than willing to thumb my nose at them - and cheekily to boot.
~Gabriel
Yer wrong, obviously you want to make a sonic/kin corrupter for real damage output
All the fun of capped damage, with scorge! With a higher base damage I think, but I dunno about that.
You do know that if something adds 100% damage. You don't x 1.00....you x 2.
Solo a blaster will outdamage your kin/sonic. With hasten and three recharges in aim and bu, I have them up almost all the time. My AoEs are better than Sonics. Blaze is better than shout. Fireblast is better than shriek. Bonesmasher is better than shout.
The extra damage in my base BI more makes up for the extra buffing you do. In addition that buffing takes time. In the same time you buff, I will have killed most if not all the spawn.
I love kinetics. I should since I started the Pinball Wizards an all kinetic SG back in August. They are one amazing SG. And in a team we ROCK, you should have heard us laughing at this scrapper who was posturing during a TF we were on. We were nice and kept the laughter to Teamspeak.
But solo, the time element takes its toll. OTOH a kin/sonic has impressive capabilities and is a ton of fun. But it isn't a tank mage.
-Teklord
I have no intention of arguing the merits of a kin/son build. I bet that'd be a hoot to play.
You make a good case, but I'm pretty sure that over X period of time, my sonic/energy blapper is going to out-damage you. Youv'e got nothing in your repetoire to keep up with energy punch, bone smasher and total focus.
As for the no defense side of things, I'll have tough and body armor stacked (around 24%dam-res to s/l), CJ for a touch of defense, 3slotted health, power thrust to keep enemies out of melee range and stun to stop enemies from hitting me in the first place. Looks like I'll be able to fit in Aid Self as well. (My very first character that will be allowed to take it.)
Be well, people of CoH.
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The Kinetics/Sonic is awesome, no question about that. However, it has a couple of serous disadvantages.
* You need to be at melee range to fully benefit from Fulcum Shift
* Sonics lacks the powers to form a real attack chain. You can fill it out with melee pool attacks, but those won't debuff resistance.
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1. Kins will largely be in melee/close combat anyway. Also makes Shout's range a non-issue.
2. Lack of attack chain on a Kin? Seriously? Grab the three single target blast, Howl, and Screech. Toss in Siren's Song as needed and you'll never lack for an attack unless hit with -recharge. There are a number of times where I can get by with 3-4 attacks on my Kin.
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If you're going to call me illogical, back it up by pointing out specific fallacies. If you don't then you're simply trolling.
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I did--your statment that indicates a kinetic's damage is equivalent to a blasters--"that is, your personal sustainable damage - is within a hair's breadth of the blasters"--ignores the very important detail of a less efficient attack chain, and much less AOE potential. It isn't within a hair's breadth, and no juggling of the numbers will make it so.
Impressive for a defender? Of course it is. Ubar Death Smash Highest DPS? Nope, it isn't.
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I'm not even going to question you math.... because Simply put... I don't care. But if I were you I'd avoid public displays of how "geat" a power combo is. You're attracting the nerf happy goons who run this game. Now scrap all this talk of defenders almost reaching blaster damage levels and get back to bashing vigilance.
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Yeah, ZOMG, v1g1l4nc3 sux, u R msut BUFF D3F3nD4rZ, d3vz!1!!!!!111! 
See what I just did? You've got to be doing more of that and less of this "my defender can do almost Blaster damage, and can self-heal, self-endurance heal, and have a second recharge buff besides hasten AND debuff his enemies"
Anyhow, I don't know that a Kin/Sonic can outdo all Blasters (AOE's are a factor that limit Sonic's potential, and a more efficient attack chain that Blasters can have + blaps can be a compensating factor)
But I do see that a Kin/Sonic can be very close to a Blaster (and better than some) with all the buff/debuff advantages you specified.
Heck, just when I read your title, I though about 3/4s of the stuff you talked about in your post before even reading it, given how prone I am to thinking of how to min/max with various sets, and how more min/maxed sets compare to less min/maxed sets and in what situations. And I agree with many of your points, and honestly believe that despite having lower hitpoints, a Kin/Sonic defender can quite possibly be a better overall soloer than a Blaster.
Anyhow, I don't know if the devs'll nerf either Kin/ or /Sonic for defenders, as those sets are balanced the way they are when combined with any other set.
Same way I know they probably won't nerf Fire/ or /Fire for tanks, even though a Fire/Fire Tank (or Brute) can give a Blaster damage a run for its money (Fire/Fire Brutes give BLAPPERS a run for their money, and with powerful aoe to boot!) because they're balanced when combined with other primaries or secondaries.
Anyhow, have fun doing that, but realize that if you're ever on a team with a Blaster, by buffing him with stuff like Speed Boost, siphon power, and debuffing the resistance of the enemies, you're transferring all those buffs you're enjoying solo to him, and that Blaster has a 500% cap.
Arc Salvo: Okay hold one sec guys, we can't just rush in blindly vs these Nemesis, they've got these ranged aoe's tha-
Teammate1(charging in): Shut up, Arc Salvo, you lame*$% Viewtiful Joe wannabe! What do you know?!
Teammate2(also charging): yeah, ST#& arc salvo u PWR RANGR U!
Arc Salvo: *sigh*
Kinetics sonics is a very nice build, but...
<ul type="square">[*]"a self-speed buff that lets you nearly perma-Hasten" - Requires double-stacked Siphon Speed to get a near hasten (5/7) boost. Also requires SOs to double stack this.[*]"Let's compare our prospective kin/sonic to an electric blaster AFTER buffs/debuffs are accounted for" - Ummm, why not compare to a sonic blaster for the most reasonable comparison? Electric is the lowest damage set AFAIK.[*]"Now let's pad our test by assuming that Siphon Power is only being applied twice - which is easy to achieve after you get Siphon Speed at level 6." - Siphon speed is only a 25% boost until you get SOs. I think you'll need some Rech DOs in Siphon Power on top of Siphon Speed to keep this double stacked.[*]"So, for the kin/sonic: 0.65 x 2.45 x 1.15 = 1.831. For the blaster: 1.00 x 1.95 = 1.95. Hmmm. So, your sustainable damage as a kin/sonic defender - that is, your personal sustainable damage - is within a hair's breadth of the blasters. And this is before level 32 and Fulcrum Shift" - Only if you ignore that it takes 15-20 seconds to get double stacked Siphon Power, and that you are spending 2/15 seconds casting siphon Power and 2/30 seconds casting Siphon Speed. That's 3/15 of 1/5 of your cast time going to buffing yourself. Which makes the 1.831 much more like 1.465. A little less, actually, when you take into account the first 15 seconds of each combat being done without double-stacked Siphon Power.[/list]
Your post-fulcrum analysis is close enough to reality that I shan't quibble with it, other than to note that the Blaster's judicious use of his "nova" over the next 8 levels while the Offender is busy getting it/slotting it up will make up for some of that supposed gap in sustained damage.
Another thing worthy of note is that you need to close to melee to cap yourself with fulcrum - which means that the Blasters melee is more relevant than your time spent discussing it would imply.
I would concur that there is no Offender build better than a KIN/SONIC. But it doesn't really begin to push the envelope before 32, and will not really exceed most Blasters in a fair comparison until 38-40, which isn't to far from where a Blaster starts to get a hold of some protection via APPs.
I'd encourage people to roll one, they're fun, but your presentation is a bit skewed, making the Offender seem more effective than he really is and the Blaster less effective than he really is when they both take the same kinds of risks to max their damage potential (closing to melee for at least part of the combat, for example).
You missed the real reason to make a Kin/Sonic:
So I can put one on the team with my Blaster and get all the bonuses with a 50% higher Brawl.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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You missed the real reason to make a Kin/Sonic:
So I can put one on the team with my Blaster and get all the bonuses with a 50% higher Brawl.
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And a higher cap to boot!
Ok, some of you will already know this. No doubt you figured it out on your own. This isn't for you. This is for those who aren't numbers people.
So, why should you build a kinetics/sonics defender?
Kinetics is an awesome primary. It has a lot of utility: two built-in travel powers that totally negate the need to take a travel pool; a self-speed buff that lets you nearly perma-Hasten; and a bunch of team and personal buffs that put everyone at the damage cap. But it's the offensive buffs that I'm going to talk about.
Sonics is generally panned for its lousy sound fx. True, they're horrible. However, it has one thing going for it: damage resistance debuffs built into every attack. Because you're a defender, the damage resistance debuffs will be more effective for you than for a sonics blaster. What this means, in short, is that every one of your blasts will increase the damage of any subsequent hits to that(or those) enemy(-ies) by 15% for a short while - about 7 seconds, I'd say.
So, the numbers. You're a defender, so your damage scale is 0.65 in comparison to the blaster's 1.00. Let's compare our prospective kin/sonic to an electric blaster AFTER buffs/debuffs are accounted for.
You're at 0.65. The multiplier starts out at 1.95 to account for 3-slotted damage. Now let's pad our test by assuming that Siphon Power is only being applied twice - which is easy to achieve after you get Siphon Speed at level 6. That puts you at 2.45. Let's also estimate low and say that on average you'll only get a single application of your -res debuffs - where in reality it's not too hard to stack. So any damage you do is increased by 15%.
The blaster is at 1.00. Our multiplier starts at 1.95...and ends at 1.95. Don't worry, I'll account for Build-Up and Aim later.
So, for the kin/sonic: 0.65 x 2.45 x 1.15 = 1.831
For the blaster: 1.00 x 1.95 = 1.95
Hmmm. So, your sustainable damage as a kin/sonic defender - that is, your personal sustainable damage - is within a hair's breadth of the blasters. And this is before level 32 and Fulcrum Shift... Hmmmmmmmm.
Now, let's give blasters their fair chance. Let's include burst damage.
Defender: 0.65 x 2.95 x 1.5 = 2.205
Blaster: 1.00 x 3.5745 = 3.575
So, the blaster can outdamage you when he needs to. Good, because he's about to get trounced.
Let's calculate for the best-case, high-level scenario for both ATs. This means Fulcrum Shift, Aim, and stacked debuffs for the Defender, and...well, just Aim and Build-Up for the Blaster.
Defender: 0.65 x 4.00 x 1.3 = 3.38
Blaster: 1.00 x 3.575 = 3.575
.... Yes, you're reading that correctly. You'll be doing, sustainably, the same damage that the Blaster can only do with both Aim and Build-Up; both of which are only up about 1/4 of the time.
Now, I haven't taken into account many factors. I have not factored in Siphon Speed. I have not factored in the two extra powers gained by not needing to take a travel pool. I have not calculated the benefit to your team of Speed Boost, Siphon Power, Transfusion, Transference, and Fulcrum Shift. That those powers can easily double the damage output of a team is a matter of statistical fact, and I have not accounted for them. I have only addressed your personal damage potential.
So. You should go roll a Kinetics/Sonics defender. Your damage will rival that of a blaster, and ultimately surpass it. Your buffs, debuffs, heals, and movement powers will make you an unequaled boon to any team you join.
Do it soon, because the devs are probably going to nerf us.
~Gabriel
Disclaimer: I have not mentioned that blaster have those wonderful melee attacks. Before you go claiming that those will allow the blaster to ultimately outdamage the defender, let me remind you that the Kinetics/Sonics defender is always operating at 100% potential, where a blaster is only able to boost himself above 1.95 twice every 45 seconds. Even with the additional attacks, the blaster will be outpaced. Also, remember that blasters have no defense to speak of. Kinetics defenders have heal, debuff, and endurance recovery powers.