Why, after 2 years, is Barrage still horrible?
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2006-02-10 13:24 in Tankers
IMO, that's what EM gets as a result of having ET and TF. Light damage up front, somre real damage backloaded.
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There's just no excuse for this power to be so lame.
Act: 2
BI: 1.3888 sm/.5 en (1.8888 total)
Horrible.
Let's look at comparable powers, either pool powers available without prerequisites or first powers for other tanker primaries:
Gash is better
Scorch is better
Frozen Fists is better
Stone Fist is better
Jab is better (Although jab is as weak, but has a much faster activation)
Bash is better
Air Superiority is better
Boxing and Kick: both better
Flurry, believe it or not, is better from a dps standpoint (act 3/bi 3.18)
In short: Barrage is the worst attack in the entire game. Fix it, please.
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Im sure Tyrant will say "Working as intended". 
I like Barrage, myself. Couple of punchy fists, makes my tanker look tough. 
I've got it slotted with three damage and one acc, since it doesn't use much endurance, and it recharges fast enough, I'm not going to put more slots into it, when those slots could be more useful on other attacks/defenses.
If I have some "leftover" slots later on (late 30s, in the 40s), then I'll put another slot into it.
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Owe my brain hurts!
To sum this thread :
OP: barrage is a terrible power compared to other 1st tier powers.
Other poster: Uhm no here are numbers. It's not bad really.
OP: well it's not real good in my attack chain.
Leading me to the question, How can any attack chain with powers like energy transfer complain about the tier 1 power?
Really give me ET in SS and I will glady swipe people with speghetti noddles for my tier 1 power.
Sorry how people choose to slot a tier 1 power is not indicitive of how good the power is or is not. Persoanally i think it is more indicitive of of usefull the rest of the set is.
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Owe my brain hurts!
To sum this thread :
OP: barrage is a terrible power compared to other 1st tier powers.
Other poster: Uhm no here are numbers. It's not bad really.
OP: well it's not real good in my attack chain.
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That's a terrible misrepresentation. Try:
OP: Barrage is a terrible tier 1 power
Others posters: here are the numbers, it's not that bad. Plus, [censored] noob, because EM rocks and we don't want attention
OP: Um, the BI and act time are the only important numbers, because recharge and end cost are not relevent here, but I'll [censored] now anyhow since clearly people don't want this to get raised as an issue.
Barrage *is* a horrible attack when taken in the context of how useful first tier powers are at higher levels. Whether that's justified by how good EM is can certainly be debated, but the number posted to "prove" me wrong about how bad it was remain an exercise in sophistry. They are statistics designed to mislead. And no one has really come to Barrage's defense. The responses that say "barrage is ok" fall into one of two categories:
(1) Barrage is okay, because EM is so good, barrage can have a BI of 1.00 and that's fine.
(2) Barrage looks cool, I love it!
My attack chain comments are more to put in perspective why the BI and the activation matter vastly more than the end cost and the recharge time.
barrage is balanced for what it is a fast recharging low lvl attack. Sadly it does a decent job of dps but that only lasts until a player gets AS>BS>EP, if a player uses that chain the dmg is better then in the 30's EM gets ET>TF>BS and then barrage is off the map. This happens in all the tank primaries, once you have haymaker>KoB>footstomp and maybe +AS why would you use jab...
/e shrug
such are all the starting tank attks...
Might I just say that, while you complain about barrage, my ice/mace sits rotting from the sheer suck-ness of the sets? Barrage is not, and should not, be a prime dev concern. There are MANY worse powers out there.
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A buff for EM?
Did I log into the Praetorian dimension or something?
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LOL, my thoughts exactly. You KNOW that 100s of EM board reading tanks are just sitting there SHOUTING at their monitor for this topic to dry up and go away without getting nerf bat aggro.
And in other news Stalkers are complaining that AS doesn't do enough damage. 
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Hell why not Porkchop.........they nerfed all my other powers!!! Might as well finish the job. 
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my email chrismfears99@yahoo.com
I would suggest you roll up an Ice/EM blapper ASAP then Mac so you can really feel the love.
Wow. You're still trying to insult me.
Despite the fact that YOU presented your argument in the style of 'barrage versus every other level 1 tanker secondary' and then revised it after my post to 'but barrage sucks compared to my big hits, despite the fact that this was not, in fact, my original point'.
'Sophistry'. 'Ignorant'.
I give up. I am not talking to you any more because you seem to feel the need to lash out at me despite the fact that a) I'm not the only one disagreeing with you, b) I have left this thread a while ago, and c) you yourself yielded the point earlier.
You tried to shrug off criticism with a 'i give up' and a smiley and then attack me days later. You are a piece of work.
Plasma wrote:
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Barrage *is* a horrible attack when taken in the context of how useful first tier powers are at higher levels.
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See, that's what caught my eye: at higher levels.
Honestly, if you're going to shrug off discussion of Barrage as a leveling tool for lower level tankers, and just discuss its desirability as part of a finished attack chain, in the *ahem* Energy melee set, you've lost me just like you've lost most of the other folks here.
Given the problems various powersets in this game have, and here I'm speaking of all ATs, not just Tankers, calling for an improvement to Energy Melee's high-level attack chain is just laughable. Ask a Trick Arrow Defender if you can have his Dev time to fix that.
It's like complaining about the freshness of the caviar in the fridge of the free nuclear-powered yacht you've been given.
Sailboat
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Fire Bomb - I'm not trying to insult you, and I didn't really want to get back into this thread, but Monay's post sucked me in.
If your numbers were posted to compare L1 attacks AT L1, then my comments just don't apply. But after it was made clear I meant my comments in the context of later game play, it is clear to someone thinking that they're not that relevent, for reasons stated.
Please realize I think your post was, in many respects, excellent, and I didn't intend for my comments to be construed as a personal attack. I just wanted to be clear that those numbers can't be considered relevent in the context that I was trying to say barrage was lacking.
But I posted initially more just to gripe about how useless it was to me at 45, with no way to get rid of it, when I'd have preferred to replace it with any other L1 tanker power or a pool power.... but my post was just a gripe and I didn't really put the needed info into it. I was lazy and started things off poorly. I'm going to try again to exit the thread. Sorry again.
I got a question. Im now level 35 and I have barrage but not Whirling Hands. Next attack I get is Total Focus and I really want it but I also like Whirling hands. Should I swap Barrage with Whirling hands with respec? If so reasons would be appreciated.
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But I posted initially more just to gripe about how useless it was to me at 45, with no way to get rid of it, when I'd have preferred to replace it with any other L1 tanker power or a pool power
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But this is the thing you are missing, Barrage is as useful to you at lvl 45 as Jab is to me at lvl 45.
At those levels we got acces to a lot of better attacks, that if sloted properly for recharge make the first attacks in the chain entirely useless for us.
The issue is not that barrage sucks, but that you have no use for it. Barrage can even still be used as a great filler for a constant attack chain at lvl 45 if you are the type that rather not slot for recharge.
Now, i think yougot the wrong campaign on your hands. Think a lot about asking for damage changes on this set, for you may regret it.
Instead, why not join the already running campaign of switching the first two powers order? The reason is exactly as you noted now, at higher levels the weakest attack in your power is rarely useful, but on the other hand, the second one is almost always useful. So, why not force us to take the one that will always be useful instead? THAT is what you should be asking for, not for them to change the numbers on the attack you think is useless.
Barrage=Low lvl stun attack.
Thats what i use it for,slot it for disorient. Use it for that,not damage.
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But I posted initially more just to gripe about how useless it was to me at 45, with no way to get rid of it, when I'd have preferred to replace it with any other L1 tanker power or a pool power
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But this is the thing you are missing, Barrage is as useful to you at lvl 45 as Jab is to me at lvl 45.
At those levels we got acces to a lot of better attacks, that if sloted properly for recharge make the first attacks in the chain entirely useless for us.
The issue is not that barrage sucks, but that you have no use for it. Barrage can even still be used as a great filler for a constant attack chain at lvl 45 if you are the type that rather not slot for recharge.
Now, i think yougot the wrong campaign on your hands. Think a lot about asking for damage changes on this set, for you may regret it.
Instead, why not join the already running campaign of switching the first two powers order? The reason is exactly as you noted now, at higher levels the weakest attack in your power is rarely useful, but on the other hand, the second one is almost always useful. So, why not force us to take the one that will always be useful instead? THAT is what you should be asking for, not for them to change the numbers on the attack you think is useless.
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I think Stars hit it fairly well.
As a side note, I think anytime you try to say that recharge isn't a factor that should be considered in dps you're in trouble. Also, with CoV you need to consider what effect your changes would have to Brutes (who are very interested in recharge).
The truly sad part of this is that, as I was reading, I had to restrain myself from screaming "STOP!" "Are you trying to get us NERFED??"
It's a truly shabby state of affairs when, despite the fact that there is an oversight in need of correction, we live in terror of the dev team "looking into" a fix for anything.
Stand UP.
FIGHT BACK!
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Barrage is a fine power. I had it on auto for close to 30 levels. No complaints here.
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Yup. I had it on auto for a while, later got out of the habit of using it but am trying to get back in the habit again. You can use it for punch-voke and it helps set up disorients, and it's just always, always there. No, I am not a fanboi and yes I would loveitloveitloveit if every first attack weren't forced choices or at least could take out an AV in a couple shots. I mean, c'mon. 
my first ever character was an Inv/EM. I will agree with the original poster that at higher levels, when barrage is just used as a filler, the damage is not as great as some of the other tier 1 fillers, like stone fist, or even gash.
But, even with you using the BI, recharge and end cost numbers as a back up to your arguement, you did not take into account that it deals smashing and energy damage, rather than just smashing or just lethal, it has a disorient secondary effect, and is nice to have when you run into mobs that debuff your recharge. barrage, and Jab are the quickest recharging tier 1 tanker powers, and when you are trying to hold aggro, having those powers to use for punchvoking when you are slowed is invaluable.
And to the people who said whirling hands is the worst tanker AOE attack power, ....you cant be serious. Once again, smashing AND energy damage, the disorient effect, It has the same BI number as almost all of the other tanker AOE attacks save maybe Foot Stomp and Fire Sword Circle, and those two AOEs carry a much higher end cost to its higher damage. And whirling hands has the fastest activation time of all the Tanker AOEs. Tell me again that whirling hands is the worst AOE tanker power.
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Dairou - 50 Spines/Regen Scrapper
Velshon - 50 Fire/Kinetics Controller
Nakk - 50 Ice/Stone Tank
Velshanta - 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
and like a million non-50 alts
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I got a question. Im now level 35 and I have barrage but not Whirling Hands. Next attack I get is Total Focus and I really want it but I also like Whirling hands. Should I swap Barrage with Whirling hands with respec? If so reasons would be appreciated.
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Barrage has to be taken, you can't respec out of it.
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Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
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A buff for EM?
Did I log into the Praetorian dimension or something?
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LOL, my thoughts exactly. You KNOW that 100s of EM board reading tanks are just sitting there SHOUTING at their monitor for this topic to dry up and go away without getting nerf bat aggro.
And in other news Stalkers are complaining that AS doesn't do enough damage.
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If the things Blasters and Stalkers can do with EM haven't made us Nerf EM yet, absolutely nothing said here will. Carry on.
EDIT: Said Scrappers, meant Stalkers.
Because after 2 years its still a LvL 1 power.
What is so hard to belive that a LvL 1 power is not nor will it ever be uber.
Whirling Hands is far from the worst tanker AoE . . . I used to farm dreck on my Inv/Nrg with just Whirling Hands/Fireball . . . I can still take out a group of orange minions with a few bonesmashers + whirling hands
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A buff for EM?
Did I log into the Praetorian dimension or something?
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL, my thoughts exactly. You KNOW that 100s of EM board reading tanks are just sitting there SHOUTING at their monitor for this topic to dry up and go away without getting nerf bat aggro.
And in other news Stalkers are complaining that AS doesn't do enough damage.
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If the things Blasters and Stalkers can do with EM haven't made us Nerf EM yet, absolutely nothing said here will. Carry on.
EDIT: Said Scrappers, meant Stalkers.
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I want to be able to link to this in-game after I take down a Regen Scrapper (Non-Dull Pain) with Build Up, Assassin Strike, Energy Transfer.
Never do you hear the word 'nerf' more than when an FotM Spine/Regen goes down.
Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.
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I LIKE Barrage ... if for no other reason than its unique look. Meh.
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Had this exact same sentiment in a SG conversation the other night. I like the look of barrage too.