RPG genre consumed by popular culture?
By
Arctic Sun,
Posted on: 2006-01-25 06:06 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Huh?(tm)
......
......
I will laugh in anybodies face if they say they dislike anything simply because it is no longer restricted to a small minority of people. Just because it is popular doesn't mean it instantly sucks.
Next useless post please! 
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I've been playing COH for a year now and reading the boards but haven't made too many posts. I'm wondering what people think of the MMO's if you look at them from the perspective of a popular culture phenomenon. I see a return in many ways to D&D type scenarios with COH/COV, in that people can communicate with one another. Unlike the console based RPG's like Final Fantasy, Zelda, etc on Nintendo, Playstation, and XBOx (the non-online versions). Is this a good thing or does it mean that the genre has been co-opted by mainstream tourists? What do you think?
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As some one that still role-plays regularly* I frequently see the Role-Play tag added to games but have yet to see anything that truely deserves the title.
The software developers have co-opted the title but now use it to mean something different.
* two, three times a year, thats regular. Right?
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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I frequently see the Role-Play tag added to games but have yet to see anything that truely deserves the title.
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Yeah.. that annoys me quite a bit too. Not that misrepresentation is a new thing or limited to labling games as RPGs when they are clearly not. I mean.. look at Fable. That was JUST as advertised. It was the most open ended and revolutionary RPG EVAR! IT BLEW OUR MINDS!
Not.. God I am glad I only rented that piece of crap.
I bought it.
I just liked becoming evil, killing people and running off.
I played it when I'm playing a City of Villains bank mission and their are NPCs in the way.
I stop. Toggle Invisibility. Turn on Fable. Kill some random people. Pause. Toggle off Invisibility. Continue bank mission. Repeat.
50s: Silent Spy - MA/Regen Scrapper | Tinkerhell - SS/Inv Brute | Extrasensory - Psi/Men Blaster | Ana Cruz - DP/PD Corruptor | Sara Thunderbird - Elec/Elec Scrapper | Pinstrike - Spines/SR Scrapper | Cold Feet - Cold/Cold Blaster
@Silent Spy, Champion Server
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As some one that still role-plays regularly*
* two, three times a year, thats regular. Right?
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Um, no hun, that would not count as regular, I am in a funk because I only get to play for about 6 hours every Saturday.
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I've been playing COH for a year now and reading the boards but haven't made too many posts. I'm wondering what people think of the MMO's if you look at them from the perspective of a popular culture phenomenon. I see a return in many ways to D&D type scenarios with COH/COV, in that people can communicate with one another. Unlike the console based RPG's like Final Fantasy, Zelda, etc on Nintendo, Playstation, and XBOx (the non-online versions). Is this a good thing or does it mean that the genre has been co-opted by mainstream tourists? What do you think?
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There is, I think, a place for some interesting discussion on MMOs in the game space. Traditionally, games have been social activities - you get together with a bunch of friends and have fun. Pen & paper games, board games, card games, sports, etc. are all about that.
For a number of years, though, computer games have been primarily a single-player experience.
MMOs seem to move us at least one step back towards "games as social activities." A good friend of mine & game designer believes that board games are coming back into the mainstream, and aren't just for kids (and families) anymore.
It certainly seems like they (MMOs and online console games) are becoming an accepted sphere in which to play games (have "meaningful fun") with friends.
I think it's too early to tell whether MMOs will have real long-term endurance in mainstream culture ... or whether they'll be more fad-like ... but then 5.5 million WoW players can't be wrong, can they?
cheers,
Arctic Sun
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As some one that still role-plays regularly*
* two, three times a year, thats regular. Right?
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Um, no hun, that would not count as regular, I am in a funk because I only get to play for about 6 hours every Saturday.
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Heh. Right there wit'cha, Nox.
I go through periods of feast and famine. I'm either going through gaming withdrawal because no one's running anything, or I'm frantically trying to fit gaming sessions into our already overbooked schedule. Sigh.
As for the RPG label in computer games, I wholeheartedly agree with Jagged. Been doing the RPG thing since the late 70's and I've yet to find a computer game that has captured the same feel as a true RPG. I do admit that CoH has come the closest, but then it is the first MMO I've ever played, and most likely the only one I'll ever play.
One thing that sort of puzzles me, is that in the realm of consoles alot of what are termed RPGs don't actually have you playing a role, they have you controling a party. So, techincally Super Mario Brothers is an RPG (you are playing the role of a plumber thrown headlong into the magical Mushroom Kingdom), but Final Fantasy isn't. RPG seems to have come to mean 'A game where your character(s) grow(s) in power/ability throughout the course game and that growth is determined, in part, by the player'
But, anyhow, back to the general topic raised: I have noticed a rise in the use of computer games in a social context. The introduction of various forms of party games has boosted them to an acceptable part of after-pub routine for a growing number of people. Also, the rise of the internet has led to peoples circles of aquaintences growing exponentially. I know people who have never been out of their State, and yet have close friends in pretty much every corner of the world. Combining these, it seems inevitable that people will use the internet to play games with each other, because human beings like games. I know for a fact that CoH is used by some people more as a social structure, than as a game. that is, they don't belong to the community because they play CoH/V, they play CoH/V so they can belong to the community. I am sure this goes on in other games too.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
Personally MMOs have been great for myself and my old RPG friends. We hang out on teamspeak and play together. Chat is for in character stuff and teamspeak is for the trash talk and tactics discussion that always accompanied our RPG sessions.
I feel much more connected in MMOs that I have to a gaming community in a long long while. I dropped out of playing pen and paper stuff since the time involved was so high. Preperation, planning, coordination and the actual event takes a ton of time and you may not even cover one fight in a session (old gurps player here). We used to dream about computer aided fight computation, heck I know I wrote some code back in those days just to help out with die rolls and computation of an attack round.
So for me I feel I play with a community and it feels a lot like the old RPG sessions even down to the inter-player romance issues causing issues in game.
-Teklord
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MMOs seem to move us at least one step back towards "games as social activities." A good friend of mine & game designer believes that board games are coming back into the mainstream, and aren't just for kids (and families) anymore.
It certainly seems like they (MMOs and online console games) are becoming an accepted sphere in which to play games (have "meaningful fun") with friends.
I think it's too early to tell whether MMOs will have real long-term endurance in mainstream culture ... or whether they'll be more fad-like ... but then 5.5 million WoW players can't be wrong, can they?
cheers,
Arctic Sun
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Well, 5.5 Million Players can be wrong for playing WoW (JOKE - Don't flame!)
For me, one of the advantages of CoH/V is that I can socialize on a weeknight and not have to go out of the apartment. I don't like to go out after a long day of work and living alone, this is a great outlet for me to have fun and still be social.
As a 40 y.o. male, I started pen & paper RPG about 4 years ago and CoH was my first online game, so this is still relatively new to me. Board games, however, are something my friends and I have done for years and continue to do.
I look at MMO's as allowing me to game with my friends while not having to be in the same room. With the addition of things like chat and teamspeak, you don't have to be with them to be with them.
As a side note, in my RL RPG sessions everyone has to bring a laptop. So now we have pen, paper, dice, rules, AND internet.. I feel like an uber-geek when we play! 
You don't hit smiling monsters - Sister Flame
No one asked you, Arctic! *shakes fist* Get off my lawn.
Ahem. Right then.
I'm all for gaming together. I just wish I had a better circle of friends: none of them are gamers, in any sense. *sighs* I miss playing D&D and Champions.
"I see your words..." ~The most menacing thing a forumite could say
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... but then 5.5 million WoW players can't be wrong, can they?
cheers,
Arctic Sun
[/ QUOTE ]yes they can because they arent playing city of heroes 
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... but then 5.5 million WoW players can't be wrong, can they?
cheers,
Arctic Sun
[/ QUOTE ]yes they can because they arent playing city of heroes .
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As long as they play both then they may be forgiven. But if they stop playing CoX then they must be stopped for their own protection.
"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')
*whine*
I WISH I HAD FRIENDS!
Of course, the great thing about being mad is you can have all the friends you want and they don't eat anything EXCEPT MR. FRANKO IF YOU DON'T PUT DOWN THAT JELLO CUP I WILL RIP OFF YOUR FACE AND SHOVE IT RIGHT DOWN YOUR THROAT YOU EVIL GIRRAFE-MAN!
Ahem... um, sorry about that. The bad thing about having all the friends you want in a 6x6 room is they're all over the bloody place and trying to pick at your lunch. Excuse me while I murder Fred, the no-legged zombie from Mars... he's drooling over my peas.
For the record though, I don't believe in subsidising entertainment nor harkening back to 'the good old days'. If new technology gives us a better game then let the old ones die a natural death. The fact that board games continue to exist, (and are getting better and better all the time), as well as traditional, (can I use that term?), RPG's tell me that while MMO's may be a good tool for creating interest they are not the grave-marker for an industry, (yet perhaps).
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...but then 5.5 million WoW players can't be wrong, can they?
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Uh ... Yeah ... They can be.
But I could swear I heard only about 500,000 are Americans (not that there's anything wrong with not being American) ... So it's not like 5 million Americans are playing WoW (or ANY MMO for that matter).
In Asia MMOs are so much bigger than they are here, that their number of players completely throws off the demographics ... Meaning that of that 5 million (I THINK I heard) 4ish or so (80%) are Asians (in Asia).
Now my numbers could be all wrong ... But I know for a fact that just saying 5 million people play WoW is sorta misleading in a 5 million Americans absolutely do not play WoW kinda way.
I think that there is a lot to be said for the social aspect of MMOs. I know that I have only played one non-MMO game since delving into the MMO world (and that was because I was deployed to Iraq and unable to do MMOs).
The immersion aspect of a social game as well as the psydo-friends you make are unlike anything you can experience getting to level 30 on Mario (or whatever is cool on consoles nowdays).
I believe a further aspect of this is PvP. In normal PvE, there is a set level of difficulty that can usually be overcome by sheer effort put in, regardless of skill or tactic. However, in PvP the opponents are other players who want to succeed, or worse dominate, in the game and it requires your failure. When you succeed in PvP it might be said that you have defeated the Ultimate AI. I know that I get a greater sense of satisfaction succeeding in PvP.
Just some thoughts that were hopefully close to on topic.
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
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There is, I think, a place for some interesting discussion on MMOs in the game space. Traditionally, games have been social activities - you get together with a bunch of friends and have fun. Pen & paper games, board games, card games, sports, etc. are all about that.
For a number of years, though, computer games have been primarily a single-player experience.
MMOs seem to move us at least one step back towards "games as social activities." A good friend of mine & game designer believes that board games are coming back into the mainstream, and aren't just for kids (and families) anymore.
It certainly seems like they (MMOs and online console games) are becoming an accepted sphere in which to play games (have "meaningful fun") with friends.
I think it's too early to tell whether MMOs will have real long-term endurance in mainstream culture ... or whether they'll be more fad-like ... but then 5.5 million WoW players can't be wrong, can they?
cheers,
Arctic Sun
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I believe City of Heroes is a phenomenon unlike any the gaming world has seen before (well, except for Star Wars but we won't get into that). You began with an MMORPG Computer game. Then you moved, ever so slightly, into a HeroClix minuratures game. You are now reaching into the CCG world with City of Heroes. Soon, you will be venturing into the Pen and Paper Paragon City.
Only three game-types have I sever seen do this: Star Wars, BattleTech, and Dungeons & Dragons. But these started in other genres and moved into MMOs. City of Heroes is the first MMO that has broken the barriers and is moving into CCGs and PnPs.
The popularity seems to keep growing, as well. How long before we see City of Heroes as a Saturday morning cartoon (either drawn or CGI) or perhaps even (PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE) City of Heroes the Movie!
I am a hard core gamer who grew up with only Marvell (not that good), Champions (a little better but too many numbers to crunch), and Palladium (better than the others) as PnP RPGs. With City of Heroes, I feel I will be getting back into the dice rolling and the ability to do things which make my GM go... "NO! The rules don't cover that!"
Also, with the CCGs... no more Magic: The Dithering, or Pokemon (Demon critters that need to be lined up in front of a Claw/Regen Scrapper)... Now I can play a CCG involving Super Heroes.
Then you have the HeroClix... Well, all I have to say is I make most of the "kids" (I'm 27, so most people who do this are Kids to me) angry when we do HeroClix at the local library. With the Freedom Phanlax, or Arachnos, I can blow their X-Men strike team or DC villains off of the frickin Board!
So please, continue to expand on the game, all aspects of it. Congratulation, good luck, and good hunting!
But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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...but then 5.5 million WoW players can't be wrong, can they?
[/ QUOTE ] Speaking of Pokemon... WoW?!?!?!
Sorry, a little biased... my original SG lost most all of it's members to that game when it came out. Three monthes later, after they reached the highest level and became bored, they all crawled back begging for reinvites. I went from the lowest rank in the SG to the highest, and made the most of it.
It, in my opinion, is similiar to EverCrack... You play it when you get bored, you play it when you want less of a challenge, then you go back to CoH for better game play and a nicer player base.
But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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One thing that sort of puzzles me, is that in the realm of consoles alot of what are termed RPGs don't actually have you playing a role, they have you controling a party. So, techincally Super Mario Brothers is an RPG (you are playing the role of a plumber thrown headlong into the magical Mushroom Kingdom), but Final Fantasy isn't. RPG seems to have come to mean 'A game where your character(s) grow(s) in power/ability throughout the course game and that growth is determined, in part, by the player'
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Precisely why I dislike the FF games, and many others. If I want an RPG, I want a game where I can create/guide the development of my character and handle situations differently depending upon that development. So, to me, something like the Sims or even the career mode in a wrestling game are more RPG than Final Fantasy-style "RPGs". (I call them playable soap operas.)
It's both a good and bad thing.
It's good because the more mainstream it becomes, the more companies you have trying to make them. Competition is always a good thing. The more MMOGs you have to choose from, the better the chance that you're going to find something just right for you. It's also good because it means more people are playing them. Let's face it, games like these aren't as fun if you don't have anyone to play them with.
The bad comes in that as the customer base increases, the developers need to look for ways to appeal to a broader base. This typically means dumbing down the game or making many sloppy features rather then focusing on fewer, well polished ones. It also becomes problematic in that you have companies chasing the money rather than the customer, and then you get more companies like SOE, looking to make a buck anyway they can.
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I miss playing D&D and Champions.
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So do I. Was even invited to join a group while I was at a party on New Year's Eve.
Said thanks for the invite, but knew I'd never make the time.
That's the beauty of CoH/V for me. I get to play Champions (kind of) whenever I want, for as long as I want, and really ahve no reliance on anyone else.
D&D and Champions never allowed that.
Be well, people of CoH.
Interesting topic!
I have been playing tabletop RPG's for 25 years now, and its popularity and place in modern perception has changed significantly over that time. However it was always a bit "geeky" I guess because all the cool places you explored with your character were created in your head. I think that is why paper RPG's have stood the test of time so well. After all, your imagination never gets old.
Computer games in general have been popular because of their "wow" factor. i.e. "what-you-see-on-screen-and-how-you-interact-with-it" but they will never replace the imagination. Games such as Neverwinter Nights really begins to allow a true tabletop feel with a toolset that allows a "DM" to create his or her own world, and then DM it for a group of players online. Having the DM flexibility to replace AI, and to provide commentary text realtime to further the plot and/or interact personally with the characters is a major step towards closing the gap between computer and table. I see games like this as the next step forward in true online roleplaying games, mixing AI with human control and having a flexibility to build the world you want rather than the one someone else has designed.
City Of Heroes stands out I think in that whilst it does not have "GM's" (in the tabletop definition) it does provide an extremely rich environment to roleplay in (should you wish). However, it is primarily designed as a combat game with a lot of pretty baubles on the side, and I personally think that if that doesn't change, then CoH/CoV will go the same way as all the other computer games out there as it naturally ages. The rich background, the different AT's, Supergroup Bases (and what they may become), and PvP allow for more than just "bash the AI until you get to 50, then rinse and repeat until bored". That said though - City Of Heroes is a place I come to to bash villains heads, to team with friends, and to be a hero for a while. When I want to roleplay, I go play something else.
This is not to say that roleplaying doesn't happen here - it does. The game is just not flexible enough to allow a "DM runs a story for players" type scenario, and I very much doubt it ever will be (I don't think that was ever the designers' intention). I have tried it : with heroic and villanous friends in the PvP zones, but you can guess what happened. Not everyone wants to RP
If the designers did ever manage to blend that into what already exists though, then I think that would truly set the game apart (moreso than it is).
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. I see a return in many ways to D&D type scenarios with COH/COV, in that people can communicate with one another. Unlike the console based RPG's like Final Fantasy, Zelda, etc on Nintendo, Playstation, and XBOx (the non-online versions). Is this a good thing
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Most certainly - yes
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or does it mean that the genre has been co-opted by mainstream tourists?
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I think it is aimed at the mainstream tourists. These games aren't created for the tiny minority of roleplayers. They are created to drag in the comparatively massive computer game community out there.
Apologies if I rambled round in circles - I'm not even sure if I made it to a point in the end...
-H
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I will laugh in anybodies face if they say they dislike anything simply because it is no longer restricted to a small minority of people. Just because it is popular doesn't mean it instantly sucks.
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I whole-heartedly agree with this (and the inverse is obviously true too - massive popularity doesn't mean quality). Several of my friends that are really in to Indie rock invariabley declare that a band now sucks the moment they are signed to a major label (e.g., Deathcab for Cutie). Sometimes they're right...but most of the time they're just revealing some desparate need to be on the "other side" of popular culture no mater what (as this site demonstrates nicely).
I've been playing COH for a year now and reading the boards but haven't made too many posts. I'm wondering what people think of the MMO's if you look at them from the perspective of a popular culture phenomenon. I see a return in many ways to D&D type scenarios with COH/COV, in that people can communicate with one another. Unlike the console based RPG's like Final Fantasy, Zelda, etc on Nintendo, Playstation, and XBOx (the non-online versions). Is this a good thing or does it mean that the genre has been co-opted by mainstream tourists? What do you think?