RPG genre consumed by popular culture?
By
Arctic Sun,
Posted on: 2006-01-25 06:06 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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... I think it's too early to tell whether MMOs will have real long-term endurance in mainstream culture ... or whether they'll be more fad-like ... but then 5.5 million WoW players can't be wrong, can they?
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Yes, because their posted concerns are but an insignificant fraction of the total player base.
Oh wait a minute ... Sorry, I had my games mixed up. That's what they say about THIS player base and forum community. Silly me.
I've been playing tabletop RPGs since 1981. They have gone through good times and bad, but I've never seen a huge upswing or downswing in the numbers of people playing. The player base has gotten a lot older, and some are now playing with their (grown) children, but on the whole, I don't see the RPG industry growing or shrinking by a huge amount. Basically, it appeals to some people and not others, and it's hard to change that. The barriers to playing are basically access to materials (books are relatively cheap), and access to a playgroup. The second is a lot harder than the first, but is still very doable. The numbers of people who say to themselves "Man, I've heard about this D&D thing, how do I get involved?" are I suspect quite small. It's mostly recruitment by and of friends. Tabletop RPGs also take time, which has to be scheduled. You have to get 4-7 people together for multiple hours on a regular basis, without distractions, and with a suitable location.
The computer game industry (and by extension the MMO industry) are the other way around. Getting people to play with is trivially easy. Either a game doesn't need other players, or they are available across the globe with the click of a mouse. The barrier here is materials, you have to have a pretty good computer and keep it mostly up to date, you have to buy the games, and you have to pay a subscription fee for some of them. Once you have that, however, you are set any time of day or night. I suspect that many people do indeed try video games because they look neat, rather than having a friend push them into it. After all, once you have bought the computer, why not get a cool game?
The play experience between the two types of game industry is quite different as well. Computer games are generally about reflexes and bright shiny colours, while tabletop games are usually about the socializing. There's stuff in each that you can't get in the other, and that's a good thing. Talking with your teammates online while playing CoH just doesn't compare to the DMs intricately crafted version of Amber, and the machinations leading up to the latest throne war, or to sitting around a basement and whomping orcs and laughing at what the cat's doing.
I play both. I appreciate both. Each appeals for different reasons, and while there's a fair bit of overlap, I wouldn't give up either one. I don't expect the computer game industry to have a significant impact on the RPG industry. It helps and harms it, by introducing new people to the concept, while it eats up the time of others.
--The Canuck
People gather to do things like game for 2 reasons for companionship and for the games themselves. This is where MMOs differ from D&D. In D&D you had no choice but to play as a group. In CoX not only do you have a choice but you can often play with people you've never met before from different parts of the world. Often people you would never associate with in RL.
The need some have for Companionship is much greater than others. This is why you see 1 group of players who always team, do TFs and SFs and are active in SGs and another group who may do those things but also very actively solo. The second group just likes the game and don't really care about the companionship much.
Conflict between "extremists" of these 2 groups of people are fairly easy to understand. The first group sometimes have trouble understanding soloing because company is the main reason they are here. The second group sometimes see others as an obstacle. They are their own social experiment in miniature.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
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I've been playing COH for a year now and reading the boards but haven't made too many posts. I'm wondering what people think of the MMO's if you look at them from the perspective of a popular culture phenomenon. I see a return in many ways to D&D type scenarios with COH/COV, in that people can communicate with one another. Unlike the console based RPG's like Final Fantasy, Zelda, etc on Nintendo, Playstation, and XBOx (the non-online versions). Is this a good thing or does it mean that the genre has been co-opted by mainstream tourists? What do you think?
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There is, I think, a place for some interesting discussion on MMOs in the game space. Traditionally, games have been social activities - you get together with a bunch of friends and have fun. Pen & paper games, board games, card games, sports, etc. are all about that.
For a number of years, though, computer games have been primarily a single-player experience.
MMOs seem to move us at least one step back towards "games as social activities." A good friend of mine & game designer believes that board games are coming back into the mainstream, and aren't just for kids (and families) anymore.
It certainly seems like they (MMOs and online console games) are becoming an accepted sphere in which to play games (have "meaningful fun") with friends.
I think it's too early to tell whether MMOs will have real long-term endurance in mainstream culture ... or whether they'll be more fad-like ... but then 5.5 million WoW players can't be wrong, can they?
cheers,
Arctic Sun
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Sure they can <^,~> WoW stinks! (<,< Hey, I came back to CoH from WoW... TWICE. Take the compliment! >.>
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I am a hard core gamer who grew up with only Marvell (not that good), Champions (a little better but too many numbers to crunch), and Palladium (better than the others) as PnP RPGs.
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<twitch> <twitch> Must... control... inner... geek... Mustn't... deride... Palladium... as... bad... D&D... clone...
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But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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No worries, mate. To each their own. Personally, I found the Palladium system as a step backward in RPG design. We'd worked so hard to get out of the morass of levels and table-lookups, only to have it all brought up again. Sheesh. 
I do find interesting the cross-pollination that Cryptic/NCSoft is engaging in with CoH. MMO to comic to CCG to RPG to... whatever's next. As long as they can keep each genre contained; I would not like to have to buy the CCG just to be able to play the MMO, for example.
I think that MMO's are just the newest genre of game. If you look back at all the games way back you started out with the text based rpg, then along came the side scroller, then you move into 3d with first person shooters. MMO's are just the next leap in 3d games to add in a way for people to socialize via the internet.
For awhile, that advance alone was enough to boggle the mind. I still remember how amazed I was playing Ultima Online for the first time (and subsequently griefed and pked).
Since then though despite the popularity of MMO games, not much original has been done to them. There's always a few new features to any game, but the mechanics stay the same. CoX took an original idea, of comic book villains and heroes, and wrapped it around the very basic, standardized, MMO. Though it's not required to play as a team, you have your standard warrior (tank), rogue (scrapper), mage (blaster), cleric (defender), and bard (controller). The names and looks change, but the game stays the same.
I went into EB games a few days ago, and as I usually do, I looked for the most original game I can find. It honestly looks like the game developers have just run out of ideas now that they've fully tapped into using the internet to make multiplayer games.
Look at most MMO's that come out today, and even older ones that have been updated. In nearly all you have some sort of circular map in the corner, a set of action buttons (usually 10 with breakaway additional layers), some sort of HP bar, some sort of mana or energy bar. You have to talk to NPC's and get quests, then you have to do the quest, then you have to return it for your reward. The engines change, the graphics differ, but aside from those aspects they could be clones.
Now lets limit it to just fantasy MMO's. There's Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Lineage I & II, Final Fantasy, Everquest I & 2, Worlds of Warcraft, the soon to be released D&D Online, Runescape, and about 10,000 other fantasy games that are all MMO's. How many times are they going to rehash beating up some dragons with some elfs and magic and crap?
I guess when things do become popular I move on, but not because everyone else likes them. I want to see games continue to push limits and boundries of what games are capible of, not just see the same games updated and remarketed year after year. City of Heroes was original enough to bring the superhero genre to MMO's, but hasn't pushed the limits of what MMO's are since then because they're just going with what works and what makes money. They don't have to push the limits either, seeing as how they still have the only superhero game and if anyone wants to play a hero they will have to come to Cryptic. Sadly though, that is making this game quite stagnant, at least in my eyes.
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RPG seems to have come to mean 'A game where your character(s) grow(s) in power/ability throughout the course game and that growth is determined, in part, by the player'
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Which is why us RPG "purists" or traditionalists or snobs or whatever you want to call it, don't consider most computer-based "RPGs" to be anything of the sort.
To me, a roleplaying game is a game where each player takes on the role of a character and they work together to tell cooperative stories. But then, I grew up on D&D, Champions, Star Frontiers, Rolemaster, and the like.
F
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One thing that sort of puzzles me, is that in the realm of consoles alot of what are termed RPGs don't actually have you playing a role, they have you controling a party. So, techincally Super Mario Brothers is an RPG (you are playing the role of a plumber thrown headlong into the magical Mushroom Kingdom), but Final Fantasy isn't. RPG seems to have come to mean 'A game where your character(s) grow(s) in power/ability throughout the course game and that growth is determined, in part, by the player'
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Precisely why I dislike the FF games, and many others. If I want an RPG, I want a game where I can create/guide the development of my character and handle situations differently depending upon that development. So, to me, something like the Sims or even the career mode in a wrestling game are more RPG than Final Fantasy-style "RPGs". (I call them playable soap operas.)
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I agree. A lot of computer RPG's, mostly console ones (like the FF-style ones), tend to be more like interactive movies.
But there are a few out there that atleast let you role-play a bit, computer games like the Fallout series, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, even a console RPG like Star Wars:KOTOR. Some of these have branching dialogues and stories, which provide a bit of role-playing and the ability to make decisions within the game.
Though of course these are not close to playing an actual pen-and-paper RPG, where what you say and do is only limited by your imagination, but in my opinion atleast these games try to give the player a semblance, though very limited, of that particular feature of role-playing.
I used to play with a rpg group every Sat. - now that I have moved, CoX is a life saver. I need the social interaction (moved to a new state, not working and don't particularly want to be on the PTA - so my contact for adult conversations is limited).
I think that MMO's are stable and will continue to be here. Mainstream tourists (its a fad) will leave, but there will be other to replace them, or they will get hooked. But just because MMO's are stable, doesn't mean that the old stuff is going to fade away. American society is all about entertainment.
I'm just glad I have the option of playing board games, console games, Pen & paper games and MMO's. Wee I can have it all! (now I just need to find the time to be able to do it all)
Ignorance is being untaught. Stupidity is being unwilling to learn.
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I'm wondering what people think of the MMO's if you look at them from the perspective of a popular culture phenomenon.
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Not even close to popular consciousness, not in the US anyway. Sure, 5 million WoW accounts and what not, but... only time the media pays attention to MMOGs is when some Korean guy keels over in a cafe, and even then the newsblurb only says "Man Dies From Videogame".
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Is this a good thing or does it mean that the genre has been co-opted by mainstream tourists?
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Social interaction is "the big draw" of MMOGs, the reason people pay $15/mo, the idea that there's hundreds, thousands of live players on the same game at the same time that you can talk to an interact with. So it'd be hard for anyone here to argue against it; if someone doesn't like the idea of playing with others, they'd be better off saving their money and playing single-player RPGs on their platform of choice.
As a sidenote, I dislike the implication that just because something is popular with the masses it's somehow devalued/degraded. Someone who only does things as long as they're "obscure" is as much of a bandwagon-jumper as someone who only does things as long as they're popular.
I've got a few concerns about this whole thread in no particular order.
-in what sense was a single player game ever a 'role playing game'? If you're going to say that living out a predestined role written by someone else is roleplaying, then books and storytelling are roleplaying for the readers and listeners. I do no think this is the way most people consider the word. Roleplaying is a specific kind of escapism. Not all escapism is roleplaying. Final fantasy is a game in which you do simple learned-response tasks from a kind of localized perspective around a few characters which are on a railroad track to destiny. I don't have a problem with that, per se, it's just that it's not, nor has it ever been, roleplaying. Grand theft Auto 3 is more roleplaying than final fantasy. I would even go so far as to say games like KOTOR which are basically just a binary choice in terms of the eventual outcome, aren't really roleplaying games, since you don't select the role--they're almost like real-life in the sense that you're stuck picking frmo the options you're given, whereas I think of a roleplaying game as being bound up heavily in choice of where and what you are going to be doing. You may not have a choice once you *get* there, but rolling up that spellsword with a pet ostrich was your idea, and it was your idea to play the flute badly in front of that gnoll, and now you're about to be eaten alive, and it was all a result of your idea. You've just learned that you probably couldn't make it as a member of The Crimson Glamour's Ostrich Cavalry--but at least it was your choice to try.
-'tourism' or any similar concepts meant to separate the 'real' roleplayer from the casual civilian sort of person are elitist and lame. The only thing that separates most people from hardcore roleplayers is social graces. Seriously. Try watching Underworld Evolution on opening night--I think a fat girl dropped a d20 while talking loudly about how a vampire would really drink blood during some quiet on-screen dialogue. Roleplaying (and gaming in general) are fringe activities. They're moving more mainstream, and that just means that a wider assortment of human shortcomings will be on display in the various communities (hooray!) rather than the narrowly defined shortcomings of those who felt outcast in highschool (raises hand).
-MMOs aren't games. I don't mean that they can't be games. It's just that none of them are. So many concessions are made to equal footing for all players, and management of the huge amount of effort required to run one (both computing wise and content wise) that there's no game left. Even City of Heroes, which I like is probably about the equivalent of pong in terms of gaming. It requires you to know when to move, and there's some reaction time involved, and that's really it. Most elements are discreely coded to interact the same way every time (in the sense that x damage vs x resistence will always produce the same result, regardless of when you hit the button, or what direction you're facing or how close or whatever else). MMO's are essentially just chat programs with interesting shared stories (or not interesting as the case may be). It's a place for socialization primarily, and not gaming per se, that's why they're popular. Socializing is what people do, and an MMO exists really only for that point. Even if you're soloing and only come in tangential contact with other people, it's still equivalent to being on the playground with other kids, so to speak. Which is better than being alone.
-People have been playing MMOs long before there was a real concept of computerized entertainment. People who had the money would buy stuff and show it to each other, and have parties, and talk about irrelevant stuff. They'd listen to music together and either discuss it or just relax. People go to restaurants. They follow the career of artists and enjoy the experience of just standinga round in a field while somebody rocks on stage.
These activities are essentially identical to what MMOs provide. Except an MMO does 3 things that normal socialization doesn't do. 1) It provides escapism in the fantastic sense 2) It provides convenience on a level undreamt of even 20 years ago and 3) it provides anonymity and safety in the social environment.
MMOs will probably get more popular and more sophisticated, and less rigidly defined. Some day the online roleplaying experience will probably be more similar to something like GURPS where you join a network of games that take place in different worlds but with similar controls and rules (so that you can easily translate knowledge about one system to another) and then you'll just go with whichever appeals to aesthetically.
but ... 'consumed by popular culture'. That's something the unpopular kid says when she doesn't get invited to the slumber party. Popular culture doesn't consume things. You're talking about human nature. All that acceptance by popular culture betokens is refinement. Is the concept refined and distilled enough for the human animal to appreciate it across a broad base of experiences and attitudes?
Nobody's losing anything. If you want to hang out around a table talking about how half-orcs get made and giggling in your Mountain Dew, you'll always be able to do that.
It's intriguing that three of the "good" RPGs you just listed three were made by Bioware.
Bioware's one the shining examples of a good production company (and Cryptic of course, fact I've been playing this for over a year's testament to that!). Their devs are opinionated, and every single game they put out seems to be a dramatic improvement on their last.
KotOR was frickin awesome, yet Jade Empire totally blew the pants off that with the coolness of it all.
They're currently working on Mass Effect (bit too HALO for my tastes), and Dragon Age. I'd REALLY keep an eye out for Dragon Age, they're touting it as a next gen, better version of NWN. That's sayin a lot since NWN is so good and flexible people are playing it even STILL. Nobody's since been able to get the feel of a low level dungeon crawl right like NWN did. Nothing to save you from a ton of goblins but a dagger, crossbow, and some light armor. Still like the whole guerilla warfare feel you've gotta use there to do well. Straight fights are usually a death sentence.
So anywho! Ya, there's going to be a lot of companies that put out one hit wonders like Guild Wars or WoW (they just don't have the replayability unless you REALLY like PvP), but I think it'd be safe to wager that a few quiet firms like Cryptic and Bioware will continue to silently work in the background, improving on what's gone before and blowing the doors off convention with a game on a totally new level of quality and intrigue.
Both've done it at least twice now, about four times in Bioware's case. So just keep up the good work, dang it!
"I'm flying free with my beautiful butterfly wings!" ~ Randy Marsh
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I think it's too early to tell whether MMOs will have real long-term endurance in mainstream culture ... or whether they'll be more fad-like ... but then 5.5 million WoW players can't be wrong, can they?
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Umm, yes they are and yes they can. ...there's nothing "social" about the same horde of 4-5 million BNET Kiddies who've always bought every Game Blizzard made since WarII... I know b/c I was one of them for over 7 years. 
If you want a examples of progessive social interaction/cooperation in MMOs, then look at games like Eve Online, Runescape, SecondLife, Planetside, etc... Heck even the Modding Communities under FPS games have 10x as many hours a day in actual constructive communication between its players compared to WoW.
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I will laugh in anybodies face if they say they dislike anything simply because it is no longer restricted to a small minority of people. Just because it is popular doesn't mean it instantly sucks.
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I whole-heartedly agree with this (and the inverse is obviously true too - massive popularity doesn't mean quality). Several of my friends that are really in to Indie rock invariabley declare that a band now sucks the moment they are signed to a major label (e.g., Deathcab for Cutie). Sometimes they're right...but most of the time they're just revealing some desparate need to be on the "other side" of popular culture no mater what (as this site demonstrates nicely).
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Hah, great site. I must say I agree with both posts above. I bet there are some in the MMO crowd even that will stop playing MMO's now that they have gone "mainstream". Sad.
On the flipside tho, it really does suck to be ridiculed for your musical tastes. Then a year later find ever fratboy in the TriState area listening to them claiming to be og's. Case in point, ever met a single person who knew anything about NIN beyond Closer? Ever met anyone who realized that the Cure wrote Lovesong, not 311?
At that point, the poser would say that those bands sold out. Rather, I tend to think that the listeners instead sold out to what was currently in fad.
back in june the hotel i work in hosted the 2005 digra conference. this is a conference of a number of different professions including scientists, researchers, coders, etc. all looking at the nature of virtual worlds, interactions and culture. the virtualspace 'second life' is an example of virtual meeting space/open ended roleplaying tourism in an open environment that shifts on a semiregular basis. yes, eleitism has been mentioned, but thats no different than it's ever been really. even in CoX.
the continuing evolvement (um, new word? evolution /development) of these worlds and the technical interfaces required to utilize them are traveling on a path to virtual reality.
where the issue might lie for people in general is the spillover from these virtual cultures into the real world.
q- who here has played for so long at a stretch that once off the system the 'first' reaction to a rl scenario is 'game habitual activity'? a recent wired article focused on several game players of different genres who once back on the road had to mildly fight off the urge to work rl as they would the game. one funny example was pimkin and the actions that game requires. another article (i forget where) discussed several younger gamers and gta type activities. ecg monitoring suggested that several areas of the brain related to empathy had been reduced when considering the actions taken and if a person they had a passing relationship were substituted for the ingame target.
another study showed that people using fps were FAR more likely to shoot a rl weapon with greater speed and accuracy than those never having used a weapon or the game.
wayne gretzky hyockey player extraordinaire always stated his best tool for practicing rl moves, visualization. not too much different than game action really.
anywho, my two cents on a semi tangent.
happy trails.
Kittens give Morbo gas.
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I will laugh in anybodies face if they say they dislike anything simply because it is no longer restricted to a small minority of people. Just because it is popular doesn't mean it instantly sucks.
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I whole-heartedly agree with this (and the inverse is obviously true too - massive popularity doesn't mean quality). Several of my friends that are really in to Indie rock invariabley declare that a band now sucks the moment they are signed to a major label (e.g., Deathcab for Cutie). Sometimes they're right...but most of the time they're just revealing some desparate need to be on the "other side" of popular culture no mater what (as this site demonstrates nicely).
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Well your friends are dorks.
That is true. Just because it is popular doesn't make it good. Though, as someone above you pointed out, popularity means more competition. It means more variety as more people try to get in on the act. You have companies trying to beat the snot out of eachother. That is always good for the consumer! Ok.. sure.. you can get idiots and people turning out crap just for a quick grab of the action, but you just have to filter them out. No big deal. Popularity is still a good thing.
Not to mention, if pen and paper RPGs were massivly popular we wouldn't have a problem finding people to play with.
::Huggles her Exalted book::
Sigh...
CoH, consumed by popular culture? (Go, Hunt, Kill Skuls!)
Never!
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On the flipside tho, it really does suck to be ridiculed for your musical tastes. Then a year later find ever fratboy in the TriState area listening to them claiming to be og's.
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Precisely why I avoid saying what my tastes in music are. When someone asks I usually say "A little bit of everything. I'm never sure if I'll like a particular song or not". It is true enough, but I would rather not go into the "Haha.. they suck" thing. It just makes me feel stupid.
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Precisely why I avoid saying what my tastes in music are. When someone asks I usually say "A little bit of everything. I'm never sure if I'll like a particular song or not". It is true enough, but I would rather not go into the "Haha.. they suck" thing. It just makes me feel stupid.
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I'm the opposite. I'll state my tastes. They are after all MY tastes. It's not up for a vote by other people what I like or don't like.
If anyone says, "Oh they suck" I just smile and file that person away in my mind as not worth paying attention to anymore, on any subject.
For what it's worth, I've not once ever had anyone say that. Usually I just get a blank stare (not many people in the Seattle area know who Deana Carter is, for example, since she's a "country" singer).
F
Its nice to see an intelligent discussion about roleplaying games. I like pie!
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I believe City of Heroes is a phenomenon unlike any the gaming world has seen before (well, except for Star Wars but we won't get into that). You began with an MMORPG Computer game. Then you moved, ever so slightly, into a HeroClix minuratures game. You are now reaching into the CCG world with City of Heroes. Soon, you will be venturing into the Pen and Paper Paragon City.
Only three game-types have I sever seen do this: Star Wars, BattleTech, and Dungeons & Dragons. But these started in other genres and moved into MMOs. City of Heroes is the first MMO that has broken the barriers and is moving into CCGs and PnPs.
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I can't really say as to CCGs, but Everquest has been a PnP RPG for four years or so now, and Warcraft has had two iterations as a PnP RPG (D&D Warcraft and World of Warcraft) for about three years. So, no, City of Heroes isn't the first.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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I've been playing COH for a year now and reading the boards but haven't made too many posts. I'm wondering what people think of the MMO's if you look at them from the perspective of a popular culture phenomenon. I see a return in many ways to D&D type scenarios with COH/COV, in that people can communicate with one another. Unlike the console based RPG's like Final Fantasy, Zelda, etc on Nintendo, Playstation, and XBOx (the non-online versions). Is this a good thing or does it mean that the genre has been co-opted by mainstream tourists? What do you think?
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There is, I think, a place for some interesting discussion on MMOs in the game space. Traditionally, games have been social activities - you get together with a bunch of friends and have fun. Pen & paper games, board games, card games, sports, etc. are all about that.
For a number of years, though, computer games have been primarily a single-player experience.
MMOs seem to move us at least one step back towards "games as social activities." A good friend of mine & game designer believes that board games are coming back into the mainstream, and aren't just for kids (and families) anymore.
It certainly seems like they (MMOs and online console games) are becoming an accepted sphere in which to play games (have "meaningful fun") with friends.
I think it's too early to tell whether MMOs will have real long-term endurance in mainstream culture ... or whether they'll be more fad-like ... but then 5.5 million WoW players can't be wrong, can they?
cheers,
Arctic Sun
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Depends. How many of the 5.5 mil hang out only in the Barrens?
Arc ID: 475246, "Bringing a Lord to Power"
"I'm only a simple man trying to cling to my tomorrow. Every day. By any means necessary."
-Caldwell B. Cladwell
And here comes Kali to smash our itty bitty dreams with reality!
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I can't really say as to CCGs, but Everquest has been a PnP RPG for four years or so now, and Warcraft has had two iterations as a PnP RPG (D&D Warcraft and World of Warcraft) for about three years. So, no, City of Heroes isn't the first.
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RPGing itself seems to be kind of a genre unto itself, whether it starts on paper (as in D&DO), or on computer.
If SWG and MxO are any indication, going cross-franchise into RPG/MMOing seems to have all kinds of difficult propositions attached to it -- in no small part because of the potentially exorbitant and contradictory expectations of both the customer base and licensing agency. Take note of that, DC, Marvel and Star Trek.
So, it kind of begs the question as to who's going to be the next big thing. The initial reports from D&DO seem to be pretty conflicted -- good for PnPers, bad for MMO-experienced gamers. One wonders how Warhammer Online is coming along, and if White Wolf is getting their [censored] in gear.
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A good friend of mine & game designer believes that board games are coming back into the mainstream, and aren't just for kids (and families) anymore.
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Board games are totally the *****