[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Step away from the Stalker AT Rep, this is one AT you do not want a war with
[/ QUOTE ]
We've been through this. You scum are simply abberrations of our beloved sets and will suffer your just death in time, curs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Abberrations?!? Bah! Stalkers are the AT that CoH forgot, that should have been there from the start, that are the most fun I've ever had playing this game. If you scrapmongers had your way, all stalkers would be reduced to the mediocre scrappers they would be without things like hide and placate.
I know you were joking. I'm half joking too... I just am tired of stalkers and scrappers being thought of so similarly, when they really shouldn't be. Bah on myself for turning what was meant to be a post in jest into something more serious.
[ QUOTE ]
Scrapper Mez protection abilities were reduced somewhat by intent. I was not involved in the change, so I don't know the specific reasons behind it, so I won't comment further at this time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Since you are the only red name to comment so far perhaps you could chase up the patch notes. Loads of PMs have been sent and still no update.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
[ QUOTE ]
Abberrations?!? Bah! Stalkers are the AT that CoH forgot, that should have been there from the start, that are the most fun I've ever had playing this game. If you scrapmongers had your way, all stalkers would be reduced to the mediocre scrappers they would be without things like hide and placate.
[/ QUOTE ]
pish posh! Even with your cowardly tools, you ARE medicore scrappper-wannabes.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Abberrations?!? Bah! Stalkers are the AT that CoH forgot, that should have been there from the start, that are the most fun I've ever had playing this game. If you scrapmongers had your way, all stalkers would be reduced to the mediocre scrappers they would be without things like hide and placate.
[/ QUOTE ]
pish posh! Even with your cowardly tools, you ARE medicore scrappper-wannabes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Scrappers are nowhere near as cool as stalkers at least we get some cool toys that go with secondaries that are worth two lucks or less 
im just curious if anyone has noticed this. i am not a number cruncher but i just feel likes it happening.
i have been running with a mind dominator the past few nights. i read somwhere that a stalker has a 20% chance to crit a slept opponent. that seems ok.
but, i feel that when a mob is slept i tend to miss them alot more than when they are awake and pounding me.
any other stalkers out there experience this?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Abberrations?!? Bah! Stalkers are the AT that CoH forgot, that should have been there from the start, that are the most fun I've ever had playing this game. If you scrapmongers had your way, all stalkers would be reduced to the mediocre scrappers they would be without things like hide and placate.
[/ QUOTE ]
pish posh! Even with your cowardly tools, you ARE medicore scrappper-wannabes.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll have you know, if I wanted to be a scrapper, I'd play a scrapper! Wait... I tried that. It wasn't any fun. 
[ QUOTE ]
Scrapper Mez protection abilities were reduced somewhat by intent.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tankers have reported this also. I'm sympathetic to the fact that sometimes changes don't make it into the patch notes, but as a customer service person I hope people get their wrists slapped for it. I really puts your CS people in a difficult spot.
[ QUOTE ]
We've reduced base To Hit from 75% to 50% for PvP purposes. This change was made to give Defense sets more effectiveness. With the ED changes, coupled with the prevalence of +To Hit buffs it was necessary.
[/ QUOTE ]
This change might offset the punishment that defensive powers took from ED but it does not address the problem that was there before. Now instead of that blaster having a 175% to-hit, he will have a 150% to hit before subtracting my ca. 30% defense. Whoopee. Between accuracy enhancements (which after ED are much more common), build up, aim, targeting drones, etc., it is not uncommon for defense to not matter whatsoever in a PvP engagement.
Scorus
Speaking of PvP, I wanted to ask you if you are looking at how Hide functions in PvP.
I don't know if this is a result of beta, but back in beta there was a lot of fear mongering, and knee jerk reactions to Stalkers in PvP. The hero communitty in general seemed to think we could one shot anyone, at anytime.
Now I feel we're at the opposite end of the spectrum. There are so many ways to counter Hide, and many of them put the Stalker at a severe disadvantage. Can we get some effectiveness put into Hide? Right now it's as easy as an Insight Inspiration, a Targetting Drone, a mission reward, an aura, etc to reveal us.
I don't think we should have to dip into a pool power to get Hide to function (minimally) in PvP.
Hide is our defining function. I don't want to be _impossible_ to see, but right now I honestly feel we're far too easy to counter. Thoughts?
Nekron: Beam Rifle / Poison Corruptor and Slayer of Evil!! (Exalted)
Intergalaktic: Fire / Time Corruptor (Exalted)
Thanks for replying, Arcana! I appreciate your help in discussing this 
[ QUOTE ]
Defense sets are balanced against even level minions: i.e. villains with base 50% tohit. Reducing players to a similar level makes sense given that: I've been basically asking for precisely that change for quite a while.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't quite understand how it "makes sense"; are we all supposed to just be minions?
[ QUOTE ]
Whenever someone suggests that defense is "working too well" my standard question is, and no vague answers please: just how much can they be allowed to make you miss before its working "too good?"
[/ QUOTE ]
I find if I'm missing more than 80% of the time, especially considering how low my damage output is and the recycle times on pretty much all of my powers, that that is, at the very least, rather unenjoyable. Although, it does seem to be giving defense sets inordinate amounts of protection compared to others (such as resist sets). Also, the effect of 50% toHit seems to be one sided for me. Everyone and their mother can hit through SI + Hover + Maneuvers on me even with 3 slotted defense, yet, I miss even Blasters routinely. I don't know if it's just something on me is bugged, but, nearly perma-whiffing on defense sets and missing routinely on people who have no defense at all seems pretty screwy.
[ QUOTE ]
I ask because I'm generally amazed at the typical responses, when I get a response at all: in the past, people have generally suggested that missing much more than half the time was intolerable: certainly missing 3 times in 4 was horribly broken. Except thats a level of mitigation far under what all other scrapper sets can achieve.
[/ QUOTE ]
PvE is not the same as PvP. It would be a rare occurence to even have 10 players hitting you at once, whereas that could happen in PvE. Trying to justify hit mitigation based on conditions in PvE seems bizarre to me as the net result in PvP may be incongruosly high levels of survivability. In my experient in Warburg thus far, this does indeed appear to be the case.
[ QUOTE ]
Super reflexes can only get about 28% defense maximum, without resorting to elude or inspirations. If you are permanently missing against SR, its either because they popped lucks (in which case that's working as intended - anyone can do that to you), or they are running under elude (in which case that too is working as intended, if elude wasn't making you miss pretty much constantly without heavy tohit buffing, it would be totally worthless).
[/ QUOTE ]
I hit them occasionally, but, it's extremely difficult. To the point that I'm pretty much defenseless against them, and they plow right through my defenses like they aren't even there. Maybe insights should modify toHit, so that I can then actually hit through them. They're seem clearly not antithetical to lucks in their current state, at least based on my experience in this game.
[ QUOTE ]
Most people, if they miss three in a row and then are killed by an SR scrapper, conclude defense is overpowered. Its not: that's defense working correctly. When my blaster gets held, cannot fight back, and is killed by a controller, the conclusion is not that holds are too powerful, and need to be taken away. Or is it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Holds can be mitigated by Break Frees. Insights appear to modify percentage of final toHit (like an Acc enhancement) rather than the base. So while the blaster can essentially shrug off my holds and then pile drive me in seconds, I'm completely helpless against the SR scrapper. The other problem I find is that SR scrappers also enjoy inordinate levels (compared to other sets) of status protection as a result, as well as debuff protection (due to missing).
Maybe toHit should be addressed on a set-by-set or AT-by-AT basis. I don't know. Or, have insights work differently. It's not that I want defense sets to be useless in PvP. It's just that it doesn't seem particularly balanced as it is, especially considering that my toHit has already taken a dive from ED's effect on tactics.
[ QUOTE ]
Now if we could just lure him into our forum...
[/ QUOTE ]
I read the Scrapper forum, too. Just only about 10% as often as I read the Stalker forum. I also glance into the general AT, Tanker, Corruptor and Brute forums, but those even less often than the Scrapper forum.
Yes, I spend a lot of time at home reading.
Hey Castle... I've got some Accuracy issues. I've read the beginning few and scanned the last few pages of this topic so forgive me if I missed something. My Energy/Ninjitsu Stalker seems to have long bouts of missing. At level 12 I just have 1 slot given to Accuracy which I always maintain maxed up as per my level. I can manage to get off an Assassin'sStrike but then if I have to fight anything else afterward I'm missing like 4 and 5 times before another hit when then leads to another 4 or 5 misses. The same thing will happen when I manage to STUN a foe and he started to wander around all dizzy. I'd think that if anything there might be a bonus to accuracy at that point since he's an easier target, but I keep missing 3-4 times. I've tested this at length with Mooks and Cappo's and the results are always the same so I don't even use Assassin's Strike as an opening attack anymore to dwindle a group size down. Is this supposed to be like this or is this a bug or maybe...I hope not... my imagination? 
Now grated, I still have not gotten DO's yet, but should that really matter THAT much at my level or is this level 12 just a touchy level?
Edit: I forgot to mention... I'm not talking about fighting +1's or even +2's. These are even level (White) minions I'm missing so much. And while we're at it. For having Combat Jump, Hide, and Ninja Reflexes on all of the time I sure get hit a lot too. Sometimes it's like a group of 3 even levelled minions can hit every time but I'm swinging at the air. HELP!
[ QUOTE ]
Now grated, I still have not gotten DO's yet, but should that really matter THAT much at my level or is this level 12 just a touchy level?
[/ QUOTE ]
You won't start seeing reliable accuracy until you slots with 4 Trainings, 2 DOs, or 1 SOs. Pre-DOs, on a power I really care about hitting with I will use at least three Training accuracy enhancements. Generally I don't start slotting for damage at all until I hit 12 and start buying DOs. Even then, Damage is often low on my list of priorities if I am short on cash.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No Patch note is an oversight, nothing more.
[/ QUOTE ]
Amazing how often you see this exact same thing posted. Over and Over and Over.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe because it's the truth?
[/ QUOTE ]
Then maybe they need to get their act together. They are supposed to be professionals right?
Hey I sure appreciate that input. But am I the only one here thinking that that is just not right? My Corruptor is slotted Offensively the same way and She hits far more often. As a matter of fact a friend of mine pointed out that it was ironic how it's almost the exact reverse. My Corruptors Fire attacks hit 3-4 times before missing, which I've come to think is about the Norm. This is against the same level and type ( in some cases) foes that I was weighing my Stalker against. Mooks and Cappo's.
I was certain we must be seeing an accuracy bug, but now I wonder if maybe it's some fluke of the random number generator. I played for about 6 hours last night and logged 94% accuracy on a MA/Regen Stalker using two +2 accuracy DOs in relevant attacks (in other words I only looked at my stats for the attacks I'd slotted. This was against mixed +1 and +0 foes, and there were no buffs or debuffs in play (aside from the inherent bonus to accuracy MA has)
Notably I'd had this slotting before and felt like I was missing horribly. Sadly I couldn't log stats at that time to back it up.
;shrug
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
While you're looking at Claws, maybe the Spines graphics can get a badly needed update into somethign more aesthetically pleasing? Ever since COH Beta, there have been on-again, off-again spurts of players bringing up how dissatisfied with the graphics for Spines they are. Let's face it, the set is hideous. The spines look like tree branches with the bark stripped off. They are so huge that they're actually bigger than the character in some cases, I mean they actually clip off of the hands of the character when they're extended. Additionally, the set is really bad for female characters; some of the spines on the upper torso are just... shall we say, uncomfortably situated.
Thorny Assault is similar but vastly improved. No clipping issues, slimmer and sharper spines, and no uncomfortably placed spines for females.
You have the graphical capability. At the very least, change them to something similar to the long shoulder spikes in the Shoulders costume creator menu.
I've got a character concept for a slim, trim young female Spines Stalker. I like the Spines powers, but I just can't stomach the graphics. After more than a year and a half, it's really high time they were fixed.
[/ QUOTE ]
No word on any graphics updates, then?
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
Castle, you are one cool dude. I wish you were the Dominator rep
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
I wish all the dev team was like Castle.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
So I'm not the only one. <whew> Maybe someone will see this. I petitioned it, but I felt stupid doing it thinking it might just be me.
And HEY!!! Aren't DO's just a little more expensive in CoV than in CoH? I'm gonna go check! Edit: Nope... they aren't. Boy! I don't remember it being so difficult to accumulate funds to get DO's. LoL 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No Patch note is an oversight, nothing more.
[/ QUOTE ]
Amazing how often you see this exact same thing posted. Over and Over and Over.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe because it's the truth?
[/ QUOTE ]
Then maybe they need to get their act together. They are supposed to be professionals right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless the devs have photographic memory, I don't blame them for not remembering every little detail when they return after getting called away - there are a decent number of people at Cryptic, but they are still something of a small dev team IIRC. And with Geko being the main powers lead, I don't doubt he gets called away - and then with Castle also being the Stalker rep - the rest probably get to trade off on starbucks runs.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defense sets are balanced against even level minions: i.e. villains with base 50% tohit. Reducing players to a similar level makes sense given that: I've been basically asking for precisely that change for quite a while.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't quite understand how it "makes sense"; are we all supposed to just be minions?
[/ QUOTE ]
When base player accuracy was 75%, that was the base tohit of an Archvillain. The original question was, should all players appear to be archvillains to defense sets only.
In actual fact, the answer is yes, you are supposed to be minions for the purposes of accuracy. Having higher than 50% base tohit is, in a sense, walking around with an automatic tohit buff on constantly. Imagine if all attacks by players did 65% psi damage - all attacks. No one would care much until PvP, when suddenly, resistance sets would be screaming bloody murder.
Precisely the same thing is true for accuracy: when SR scrappers can only get 28% defense *maximum* (without elude), everyone having 75% base tohit didn't make any sense.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whenever someone suggests that defense is "working too well" my standard question is, and no vague answers please: just how much can they be allowed to make you miss before its working "too good?"
[/ QUOTE ]
I find if I'm missing more than 80% of the time, especially considering how low my damage output is and the recycle times on pretty much all of my powers, that that is, at the very least, rather unenjoyable. Although, it does seem to be giving defense sets inordinate amounts of protection compared to others (such as resist sets). Also, the effect of 50% toHit seems to be one sided for me. Everyone and their mother can hit through SI + Hover + Maneuvers on me even with 3 slotted defense, yet, I miss even Blasters routinely. I don't know if it's just something on me is bugged, but, nearly perma-whiffing on defense sets and missing routinely on people who have no defense at all seems pretty screwy.
[/ QUOTE ]
My experience is different than yours in terms of how many people can hit through SR defenses. But lets start with miss rate. It gets a little tricky looking at what a "reasonable" miss rate is, because we are talking about two different situations: the original one with base tohit at 75%, and the new one with base tohit at 50%.
When base tohit was 75%, SR scrappers were looking to roughly equal the mitigation of the other scrapper sets. With ED and I6, the discussion gets very complex (complex enough that I haven't redone all my scrapper mitigation analyses yet: too much time in CoV honestly). But on broad strokes, invuln scrappers can still get smash/lethal resistances around 50%, plus (non-perma) dull pain, plus they can stack power pools. In the case of invuln, you can't simply dismiss power pools outright because tough is easier to get than weave, and stacks more strongly (higher relative value adjusted for defense/resistance stacking). But lets just start with 50% resists and periodic dull pain.
When dull pain is up, it adds effective mitigation of about 28% non-stacking to resistances: net invuln smash/lethal mitigation is about 63%.
For SR to get roughly to that level, with 75% base tohit, requires 47% defense. We have 28%. Granted, this does not take into account non-s/l damage, but contrawise it does not take into account dull pain's periodic self heal. Its not meant to prove anything, just meant to show at least in broad strokes where the numbers were.
At base tohit of 50%, SR defenses now offer 56% mitigation, which is in the same zip code as invuln's. It might be higher, it might be lower, when taking into account all other factors, but at least its in the same ballpark.
Now here's an interesting thing. When they reduced player base tohit, in effect they reduced *everyone's* base damage output from player to player. That's important for looking at just how "bad" missing 80% of the time really is. With no buffs, the average player is already going to miss the average player 50% of the time. How much real mitigation is a defense set offering if you are missing it 80% of the time? Basically, damage is reduced from 50% chance to hit, to 20% chance to hit. That's 60% mitigation ( (50-20)/50 ). Put it this way: out of ten swings, normally you'd hit five. Now, you'd hit two. Defense is protecting the target from 3 out of 5 hits: 60%.
In effect, at base 50% tohit, if you are only hitting one time in five, you are doing the exact same damage over time as if you were attacking someone with zero defense but 60% resistances. Again, this is rough numbers, designed to offer context. They can be argued around the margins, but now we are talking mitigation details, not the broad concept.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most people, if they miss three in a row and then are killed by an SR scrapper, conclude defense is overpowered. Its not: that's defense working correctly. When my blaster gets held, cannot fight back, and is killed by a controller, the conclusion is not that holds are too powerful, and need to be taken away. Or is it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Holds can be mitigated by Break Frees. Insights appear to modify percentage of final toHit (like an Acc enhancement) rather than the base. So while the blaster can essentially shrug off my holds and then pile drive me in seconds, I'm completely helpless against the SR scrapper.
[/ QUOTE ]
Defense doesn't kill anyone, offense does. If breakfrees are a legitimate response to holds, then there are also counters to the SR scrappers *primary*. No SR power does damage, no SR power boosts damage, no SR power improves accuracy, and no SR power mezzes, so (except for quickness) there is nothing in the SR set to "counter."
Meanwhile, as I said, my experience in Warburg isn't exactly the same as yours. There are in fact players in Warburg that can't kill me, because they simply don't possess sufficient tohit buffs. But then again, controller pets still possess pet accuracy, not the player base accuracy: I was feared by the spectral terror right through elude, and PB offers no fear protection. As a melee-only fighter, hurricane makes it all but impossible to defeat some controllers and defenders, unless they are literally asleep at the keyboard. 80% of my MA/SR's defeats were to blasters, including one that was very effective in hover sniping me while simultaneously spamming web grenade to prevent me from getting into the air to counter attack (I only lasted as long as I did by using overpasses as cover). Keep in mind, for me to be -flyed, web grenade has to hit.
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe toHit should be addressed on a set-by-set or AT-by-AT basis. I don't know. Or, have insights work differently. It's not that I want defense sets to be useless in PvP. It's just that it doesn't seem particularly balanced as it is, especially considering that my toHit has already taken a dive from ED's effect on tactics.
[/ QUOTE ]
We come back to the original question: picture in your mind defense working correctly, in your estimation. Now ask yourself what you would do to "counter" defense, when its working correctly in your estimation. Now, as honestly as you can, evaluate how effective your response would be. If it gives you a win more than 50% of the time, that's saying something.
Classic game-balance trick: cut and choose. Take your toon, and my toon (MA/SR). Now, here's the game: you decide how defense and tohit will work. Then I decide which one I will play, and you have to play the other one. Now, come up with a suggestion for defense and tohit you'd be happy with under those conditions.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
Castle, you are one cool dude. I wish you were the Dominator rep
[/ QUOTE ]
I wish defenders had a rep...
[ QUOTE ]
When base player accuracy was 75%, that was the base tohit of an Archvillain. The original question was, should all players appear to be archvillains to defense sets only.
In actual fact, the answer is yes, you are supposed to be minions for the purposes of accuracy. Having higher than 50% base tohit is, in a sense, walking around with an automatic tohit buff on constantly. Imagine if all attacks by players did 65% psi damage - all attacks. No one would care much until PvP, when suddenly, resistance sets would be screaming bloody murder.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is this really a fair comparison? I'm not doing even close to AV damage, or much damage at all, in general. My pet can do damage, but, it is rare for me to be able to stand still long enough to let the pet do so. Phantasm is rather slow, and I'm overwhelmingly vulnerable when standing still due to having essentially no defense and, in Warburg, no resists.
[ QUOTE ]
Precisely the same thing is true for accuracy: when SR scrappers can only get 28% defense *maximum* (without elude), everyone having 75% base tohit didn't make any sense.
[/ QUOTE ]
75% might not; 50% I don't find to make much sense, either, at least on my Ill/Kin. 60-65% would have made more sense, I think.
[ QUOTE ]
My experience is different than yours in terms of how many people can hit through SR defenses. But lets start with miss rate. It gets a little tricky looking at what a "reasonable" miss rate is, because we are talking about two different situations: the original one with base tohit at 75%, and the new one with base tohit at 50%.
When base tohit was 75%, SR scrappers were looking to roughly equal the mitigation of the other scrapper sets. With ED and I6, the discussion gets very complex (complex enough that I haven't redone all my scrapper mitigation analyses yet: too much time in CoV honestly). But on broad strokes, invuln scrappers can still get smash/lethal resistances around 50%, plus (non-perma) dull pain, plus they can stack power pools. In the case of invuln, you can't simply dismiss power pools outright because tough is easier to get than weave, and stacks more strongly (higher relative value adjusted for defense/resistance stacking). But lets just start with 50% resists and periodic dull pain.
When dull pain is up, it adds effective mitigation of about 28% non-stacking to resistances: net invuln smash/lethal mitigation is about 63%.
For SR to get roughly to that level, with 75% base tohit, requires 47% defense. We have 28%. Granted, this does not take into account non-s/l damage, but contrawise it does not take into account dull pain's periodic self heal. Its not meant to prove anything, just meant to show at least in broad strokes where the numbers were.
At base tohit of 50%, SR defenses now offer 56% mitigation, which is in the same zip code as invuln's. It might be higher, it might be lower, when taking into account all other factors, but at least its in the same ballpark.
Now here's an interesting thing. When they reduced player base tohit, in effect they reduced *everyone's* base damage output from player to player. That's important for looking at just how "bad" missing 80% of the time really is. With no buffs, the average player is already going to miss the average player 50% of the time. How much real mitigation is a defense set offering if you are missing it 80% of the time? Basically, damage is reduced from 50% chance to hit, to 20% chance to hit. That's 60% mitigation ( (50-20)/50 ). Put it this way: out of ten swings, normally you'd hit five. Now, you'd hit two. Defense is protecting the target from 3 out of 5 hits: 60%.
In effect, at base 50% tohit, if you are only hitting one time in five, you are doing the exact same damage over time as if you were attacking someone with zero defense but 60% resistances. Again, this is rough numbers, designed to offer context. They can be argued around the margins, but now we are talking mitigation details, not the broad concept.
[/ QUOTE ]
This doesn't take into account the actual dynamics of PvP. Having to hit someone many times before actually getting a successful hit allows for healback (which happens rapidly with spectral wounds, for instance) as well as inability to constantly plug away at the SR long enough to do damage in significant quantity. I'm failing to see how this is a genuinely fair comparison, overall.
[ QUOTE ]
Defense doesn't kill anyone, offense does. If breakfrees are a legitimate response to holds, then there are also counters to the SR scrappers *primary*. No SR power does damage, no SR power boosts damage, no SR power improves accuracy, and no SR power mezzes, so (except for quickness) there is nothing in the SR set to "counter."
[/ QUOTE ]
You brought up holds as being something Controllers have in their favour. I mentioned that it is _easily_ mitigated by break frees, allowing the ice/energy blaster, for instance, to defeat me without much trouble.
SR itself isn't offensive, but, it of course does increase the SR Scrapper's offensive strength against me. Being unable to land hits means I am essentially defenseless as, at least in my experience in PvP, offense and defense are pretty entagled with eachother. With Kinetics, especially, it becomes even more of a problem since it is so reliant on landing hits, including for my heal. As a result, missing 4/5 times makes SR inordinately dangerous to me, with the exception of maybe DA in some cases. In essence, I can't damage quickly enough to be a threat, I can't detoggle, either (since all I have is brawl or multiple applications of transference for that; both of which miss routinely), and I can't protect myself (as MA, at least, cuts right through my defenses and I can't heal myself). These factors also contribute to why I'm having trouble understanding why your calculations for mitigation are particularly representative of real-world conditions in terms of mitigating threat. They may work against pure damage opponents such as blasters, but, they don't seem to represent well for opponents like many controller builds and, I imagine, Defender builds as well.
[ QUOTE ]
Meanwhile, as I said, my experience in Warburg isn't exactly the same as yours. There are in fact players in Warburg that can't kill me, because they simply don't possess sufficient tohit buffs. But then again, controller pets still possess pet accuracy, not the player base accuracy: I was feared by the spectral terror right through elude, and PB offers no fear protection. As a melee-only fighter, hurricane makes it all but impossible to defeat some controllers and defenders, unless they are literally asleep at the keyboard. 80% of my MA/SR's defeats were to blasters, including one that was very effective in hover sniping me while simultaneously spamming web grenade to prevent me from getting into the air to counter attack (I only lasted as long as I did by using overpasses as cover). Keep in mind, for me to be -flyed, web grenade has to hit.
[/ QUOTE ]
It sounds like, then, maybe toHit should be adjusted on a set-by-set basis. Having base 50% on Kinetics primary just seems ludicrously low to me considering that it has no defense or toHit buffs or debuffs in it to mitigate the problem. Maybe the change makes sense on some sets, but, I don't really agree that it's a sensible decision globally. As I noted above, it sounds like your calculations may be at least somewhat accurate against Blasters. They just don't seem to make much sense against something like me
[ QUOTE ]
We come back to the original question: picture in your mind defense working correctly, in your estimation. Now ask yourself what you would do to "counter" defense, when its working correctly in your estimation. Now, as honestly as you can, evaluate how effective your response would be. If it gives you a win more than 50% of the time, that's saying something.
Classic game-balance trick: cut and choose. Take your toon, and my toon (MA/SR). Now, here's the game: you decide how defense and tohit will work. Then I decide which one I will play, and you have to play the other one. Now, come up with a suggestion for defense and tohit you'd be happy with under those conditions.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, as it currently stands, I would be more than happy to switch places with you in PvP, as I'd be surprised if I were to win even 25% of the time. What I think might help is giving Kinetics around a 60-65% toHit to offset the fact that it can't help itself in terms of accuracy. This would at least allow for me to heal myself and hopefully get some help from end drain. I can't do much damage compared to you, though, so I'd still be in a rather precarious state of affairs. For the Ill secondary, maybe having a higher accuracy for Deceive and Blind would help. I'm not asking for a constant win here. Some semblance of balance (such as 50% win/lose) is not only acceptable; it's what I'm hoping for. As it stands right now, winning even 50% of the time is pretty much a pipe dream currently, and I've done everything I can in terms of powers and slotting to try to improve that situation.
I apologise if I'm simply being an imbecile with respect to this subject. I'm trying to understand the game as best I can, but I can imagine I may make mistakes here and there. I really did go on TS, though, and try to test some of these things out with various scrappers earlier in the week, though, including MA/SR. It seems like there's a fine line between enough defense and too much for SR, and I'm not exactly sure where that line is since I haven't had the opportunity to test different levels of defense on their side and toHit on my side. Anyhow, when the MA/SR is hitting through my defenses at greater than 80% success (I actually tested them on and then off; didn't seem to make much of a difference) and I'm hitting him with nearly 80% failure rate, and each of his hits is generally far more deadly to me than my hits to him, there really seems to be a balance problem.
This is becoming much less a discussion of the technical issues of tohit, and more of a PvP balancing discussion, but here goes:
[ QUOTE ]
This doesn't take into account the actual dynamics of PvP. Having to hit someone many times before actually getting a successful hit allows for healback (which happens rapidly with spectral wounds, for instance) as well as inability to constantly plug away at the SR long enough to do damage in significant quantity. I'm failing to see how this is a genuinely fair comparison, overall.
[/ QUOTE ]
Missing, or hitting for less, is from a damage perspective an identical situation. Missing 80% of the time, and hitting someone (base 50% tohit) with 60% resists, it will take exactly the same number of swings to do the same effective damage. I'm not sure why its a difficult concept to convey, but people seem to think there is an inherent penalty to missing - from a damage perspective - and there isn't. Healback happens in ticks and is unaffected by damage per se: if it takes X number of swings to do Y amount of damage, whether all X swings record a small amount of damage, or most miss and some do a lot of damage, the average result is the same.
Spectral Wounds heals back fast enough that realistically, there's no way to "stack" SW and kill before the healback occurs, except at significantly low health levels. That is a marginal issue at best.
What I think you're missing is that if I say X defense is equal to Y resistance, what that means is that it'll take the same number of swings, on average, to strike for the same amount of effective damage. The same. That's the very definition behind computing what defense is equal to what resistance. If I put a character with X defense and one with Y resistance in front of you, and ask you to swing away until you kill them both, statistically, on average, it will take exactly the same amount of time, or I simply haven't done the math correctly. If you think I haven't done the math correctly, then let me know what error you think I've made.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defense doesn't kill anyone, offense does. If breakfrees are a legitimate response to holds, then there are also counters to the SR scrappers *primary*. No SR power does damage, no SR power boosts damage, no SR power improves accuracy, and no SR power mezzes, so (except for quickness) there is nothing in the SR set to "counter."
[/ QUOTE ]
You brought up holds as being something Controllers have in their favour. I mentioned that it is _easily_ mitigated by break frees, allowing the ice/energy blaster, for instance, to defeat me without much trouble.
SR itself isn't offensive, but, it of course does increase the SR Scrapper's offensive strength against me. Being unable to land hits means I am essentially defenseless as, at least in my experience in PvP, offense and defense are pretty entagled with eachother. With Kinetics, especially, it becomes even more of a problem since it is so reliant on landing hits, including for my heal. As a result, missing 4/5 times makes SR inordinately dangerous to me, with the exception of maybe DA in some cases. In essence, I can't damage quickly enough to be a threat, I can't detoggle, either (since all I have is brawl or multiple applications of transference for that; both of which miss routinely), and I can't protect myself (as MA, at least, cuts right through my defenses and I can't heal myself). These factors also contribute to why I'm having trouble understanding why your calculations for mitigation are particularly representative of real-world conditions in terms of mitigating threat. They may work against pure damage opponents such as blasters, but, they don't seem to represent well for opponents like many controller builds and, I imagine, Defender builds as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
The calculations are just a reference point for discussion. In actual play, in the arena, and in PvP zones, in order, the highest threats to my MA/SR are in order (in broad rough terms):
Blasters (if they play smart)
Illusion Controllers (if they have all the pets, especially ST)
Anything else with fear
All other controllers
Broadsword Scrappers
All other scrappers
Defense Debuffing Defenders (solo: any team with one is the defacto highest threat)
Tanks
Controllers have always been among the highest threats, and therefore are the first thing targetted. You might be getting taken out in PvP quickly and often precisely because of that fact.
Now, there will always be exceptions. You mention kinetics. Any set that relies heavily on hitting for secondary effects is going to do worse against SR than other sets. But to attempt to nullify that is to attempt to negate SR's inherent advantages over resistance. Would my blaster have a valid complaint that she needs slow resistance to deal with all kinetics sets?
Kinetics specifically might do worse than other sets. The implication seems to be that if a set needs to hit to work well, it should be allowed to do so. But my SR needs to avoid getting hit to do its job well, and its job is to defend against you. Part of the built in balancing that goes on is that my defense is *supposed* to prevent you from landing your self heal. Other sets have non-targetted self heals, which is their built-in advantage. Radiation toggle debuffs are autohit: SR cannot defend against them at all. Thats an advantage of radiation relative to kinetics, that requires a hit.
Balanced against kinetics, which SR defends well against, there's still tar patch, caltrops, and quicksand, all of which autohit for effect. There's still Aim, which all blasters and a sizeable proportion of defenders have, that cuts through everything including elude. Focused accuracy cuts through everything but elude by itself. Build Up and Rage cuts through SR defenses, even with the lowered PvP base tohit. Pets still have higher accuracy.
If some things are allowed to be much more effective against SR, and everything else is required to be at least equal, then SR will be a worthless set. If not getting hit is SR's purported advantage, then not being able to hit has to be someone's disadvantage.
If *all* tohit buffs were taken away, and *all* defense debuffs were taken away, and *all* pets had player accuracy, so that SR's defenses were in effect equally effective everywhere, then I'd have no problem with saying that no set should be inordinately *penalized* against SR. But as long as rock/paper/scissors is the balance rule, then some sets have to be paper to SR's scissors.
Having said all of that, now that they have made the change that essentially *all* defense advocates have been asking for since practically the dawn of PvP, I'm willing to admit that many sets, like kinetics, might need tweaking to equalize them across the full spectrum of possible opponents.
But you have to remember: there are ATs out there that your kinetics can dominate. Proper balance dictates that either there has to be some that will give you inordinate trouble, like SR, or you yourself have to be reduced relative to those people you give inordinate trouble to.
You can't ask to be sometimes great, and everywhere else even. You can only be sometimes great, and sometimes sad, or even everywhere. And even everywhere is not an easy thing to accomplish.
Right now, SR seems to be in a position where some things have an easier time defeating it, and some things a harder time. Are the two sets roughly even? I'm not sure yet, but even when they are, some people will be in one group, and some people will be in the other group, even though no one wants to be in the second group.
Who is in the second group for kinetics?
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
Step away from the Stalker AT Rep, this is one AT you do not want a war with
[/ QUOTE ]
We've been through this. You scum are simply abberrations of our beloved sets and will suffer your just death in time, curs.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.