[ QUOTE ]
I think that the main problem with SR, the main thing that is really unacceptable about it, is that 6 3-SO slotted powers out of the 9, all on at the same time (3 toggles and 3 passives), combined, will after ED barely equal a single luck inspiration.
This is tantamount to giving players a "Ranged Energy Blast" inspiration that lets them fire not just a ranged attack, but the best, fully slotted, built up attack an energy blaster can fire. And since that clearly is not reasonable, I don't understand why it is reasonable that the whole population has access an inspiration as good as 2/3rds of our power set at its BEST. Indeed, until the late 30s when you've got your slots all set, Luck is far BETTER than anything the best SR scrapper can do. And that is just not right... extra resistance or not.
F
[/ QUOTE ]I have to agree that this is a peculiar predicament. Exacerbated by the fact that the best +RES inspirations aren't as good as /inv at its best.
I think it feels doubly unfair when you consider that Lucks are defense to all, not just melee or ranged as is true for our powers. But, at the same time, we gain the most benefit from Lucks, though at the low levels, it's probably difficult to notice.
I think this buff is a recognition by the devs of the difficulty in balancing an all +DEF set. I think it was Arcana who pointed out that the point at which +DEF is too good is not very far from the point at which it's not good enough.
The reality to me is that the game designers will constantly battle against contradictory objectives:
Make us feel like super heroes versus making the game a challenge.
With the exception of Kyptonite or Magic wielding villians, Superman was never challenged by anything less than an AV...which he solo's. It's hard to maintain a game from 1-50 when you start out fighting AV's at lvl 1....or even at lvl 20 as is the case with some builds.
[ QUOTE ]
I have to agree that this is a peculiar predicament. Exacerbated by the fact that the best +RES inspirations aren't as good as /inv at its best.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes and here is my stand: if they're gonna nerf our defenses then they should nerf luck. Fair is fair. Drop Luck to 10% or something. Oh wait, they can't do that -- everyone but the SR scrappers and Ice tankers would scream bloody murder. That's because what everyone ELSE can do is have the resistance of a tanker (or near it) from their primary or secondary, and then STACK THAT with Luck. Now they are not, say, an Inv/SS tanker, but an Inv/SR/SS tanker... they are not a Claw/Regen scrapper but a Claw/Regen/SR scrapper.
The flip is not true. An SR scrapper cannot become a */SR/Inv tanker, because (a) we cannot duplicate the best powers in the set with an inspiration (Invincibility, Unstoppable), and (b) the powers we can duplicate cap WAY above where you could get unless you sucked down an entire TRAY full of resist insps all at once. Meanwhile, you can replicate 6 full powers all at once with a single basic luck inspiration, and you can even replicate elude by just stacking a couple of Lucks.
Now, I'm not really saying "nerf everyone" here. What I'm saying is -- fair is fair. I can't think of a single other power set I could duplicate with inspirations. I can heal but I can't come close to what an Empathy healer can do. I can gain End but I can't come close to what things like Fortitude can do. It's not that adding "some defense" is a problem in terms of Luck, but that you can add as much as a level 40+ SR scrapper with a full set of SOs by chewing on a purple pill available to you for 50 influence from any contact starting at level 2. I cannot see how this is remotely justifiable.
SR scrappers either need more defense, or they need something else. It's OK to make us a one-trick pony (as they have) if that trick is REALLY good. If the trick is not any better than what everyone else in the game can have, then we need more tricks. So... defense either needs to go back up, or they need to change our powers around and give us some healing and resistance. If resistance sets can get a lower level dodge (Inv with Invince) then Defense sets should get a constant (not "emergency only") resistance. Indeed, I'd suggest: buff the toggles back to their old levels, and change the passives to resistance powers at whatever level is appropriate 10% base, 20% cap maybe). SR needs something, clearly.
[ QUOTE ]
But, at the same time, we gain the most benefit from Lucks, though at the low levels, it's probably difficult to notice.
[/ QUOTE ]
At low levels, you could say instead, "Our defenses add a slight bonus to Luck, which is our mainstay." Because think about it... 12% defense with no real slots and only trainers = 12% defense. That's nothing... we get hit 4 out of 10 instead of 5 out of 10. Pop a luck... and now you have some actual defense.
Think about it another way. I do not carry many inspirations for my characters for things they can do. I do not generally carry damage insps for my scrappers because they already do damage. When I had a healing defender (I don't anymore) I did not carry heals on him because he could heal himself. When I get my regen scrapper slotted right so reconstruction is ready more often (it will be a few levels) I probably won't carry any heal insps for her either. If I have a to-hit buff like build up, I use that instead of accuracy so I can carry more End for my tanker. I don't bother with resistance for my tanker because she already has it.
But my SR? I have *always* had to carry Luck for her, and until I got Elude, I basically carried a full TRAY of Luck (with one or two heal or end insps just for emergencies). Because she was not playable without it.
This strikes me as incorrect behavior for the game. What you are good at, you should not have to carry whole trays of inspirations for. One or two for the odd boss or AV, sure. But a whole TRAY of Lucks for a character who is already supposed to have amongst the best dodging defense in the game? That's just silly. And yet I learned the hard way that if I didn't pop Luck a lot at the lower levels, I ate a lot of pavement.
It should not be this way. Of anyone, SR scrappers should need luck the least. But it doesn't work this way.
[ QUOTE ]
I think this buff is a recognition by the devs of the difficulty in balancing an all +DEF set. I think it was Arcana who pointed out that the point at which +DEF is too good is not very far from the point at which it's not good enough.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem is that it's unpredictable and the devs do NOT factor that unpredictability in. Something that hits me 1 out of 10 and one-shots me is viewed (by the devs) as being the same danger to me as something that hits the invuln guy 10 out of 10 but only does 10% damage to him. IT'S NOT. Because the slow gradual change is predictable and the one-shot is not. I'm not hit every 10th time, but one out of 10... it could be the 3rd, or the 8th -- or even the 1st. Yes I have had it happen where even with Elude running, I get one-shotted at the start of a battle against an AV. This is not avoidable entirely with SR, and shouldn't be -- but it very much needs to be factored in as a cost. If 10 shots against invuln is acceptable as a difficulty level, then a 10% chance to hit an SR is NOT... because of the unpredictability. This needs to be factored in, somehow. I'm not sure how but they do need to factor it in. Otherwise, SR just ends up going straight from green to dead over and over again and it becomes very frustrating.
[ QUOTE ]
Make us feel like super heroes versus making the game a challenge.
With the exception of Kyptonite or Magic wielding villians, Superman was never challenged by anything less than an AV...which he solo's. It's hard to maintain a game from 1-50 when you start out fighting AV's at lvl 1....or even at lvl 20 as is the case with some builds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, but Superman's main challenges usually weren't fights. After all look at the old 1950s TV show. Most of those were not fisticuffs. He often didn't raise his hand. They were mental challenges, having to out-wit the crook or save the hostage etc. Part of the problem COH suffers from is that straight mindless battle is all you can do. There's no "hostage negotiation" where you have to use your brains instead of your brawn. There are no puzzles or any of that. So some of the problem is, Superman was uber, but he often faced challenges that his uberness did not help him with, so it was OK that in the fisticuff part, he was uber. To be honest, I'm not sure what can be done about this in COH, because they only chose to adapt the fisticuff part of the hero and not all the other stuff.
However that said, I think SR is a special case. I think the devs blindly and inappropriately consider the "statistical odds that you will die in X hits" as the yardstick, when it should not be, because for resistance and regen it means "you will die AFTER X hits", whereas for SR it means "you will die on any one of the next X hits" and those two conditionals play VERY VERY differently. The devs first need to understand this, before we can make any progress -- and as far as I can tell, with geko's stats obsession, he never HAS recognized it, nor has States.
F
Alright, I had a previous post with an "out of the box" suggestion. Now let me try a simple in the box suggestion.
Currently the main issues that most SR players are concerned with (from what I can tell from reading the forums and talking to fellow SR players) is the ever present not-so-fun one shot death. Also the recent ED that reduces our defenses even lower. And Finally the new SR "fix" is viewed too much like scrapper defiance, and people aren't too happy about that.
On to my suggestion:
It's actually almost the same as what the Devs are giving us, only "slightly" modifed.
Instead of giving us resistance when we are near death, which incidentally doesn't do anything to save us from being one shotted. How about only giving us resistance to an attack that does more than 1/3 or 1/2 of our total health in one hit. This would help us against being one shotted, but would not be an "always on" resistance, and we would get it's benefit when we REALLY needed it.
Basically it would play out like so: minions will be pecking away at our health, like normal, and when the big bad AV takes his mighty swing on us, we aren't going to be paying a whole lot of attention to the minion's attacks, thus we don't get resistance to those, but we sure as heck are going to be twisting and turning ten ways to sunday to avoid taking that AV strike full on, hence we get damage resistance to that specific attack because if it hits it will one shot us, or at the very least do more than 1/2 our total health in one hit.
The percentage of damage I tossed out when the resistance kicks in is just an arbitrary number that I used. The Devs would need to come up with a satisfactory percentage at which point the resistance kicks in against a massive one shot attack.
This I feel won't overpower SR scrappers because against normal foes this power will likely NEVER kick in (minions and Leutenants), but against the foes that most SR scrappers seem to complain about the most, (I.E. the ones able to one shot us), then this power will make a difference.
Anyhow, I hope things work out for SR somehow.
"All that crap is grey to me, no XP." - Positron 5/15/05 8:36am . . . The world stopped and silence ensued except for the sound of a crying infant off in the distance.
"Everyone needs to chill the hell out." - BackAlleyBrawler 11/13/08 3:26pm . . . Geeks around the world stopped and blinked.
I like it. At least I'd be willing to try it and see how it plays.
What you're basically saying is that we should get the resistance BEFORE the blow lands, rather than after it has landed and we are (in all likelihood) hitting the "go to hospital" button. That in fact plays in very well with SR in general, kind of like a "Spidey Sense" or how Dove from the old Hawk and Dove comics used to avoid sudden lethal blows.
I like it. It could be fairly decent resistance because it would only kick in for those special cases, and not generally. And it would make a lot of sense and fit within the set.
Nice idea.
F
[ QUOTE ]
Instead of giving us resistance when we are near death, which incidentally doesn't do anything to save us from being one shotted. How about only giving us resistance to an attack that does more than 1/3 or 1/2 of our total health in one hit. This would help us against being one shotted, but would not be an "always on" resistance, and we would get it's benefit when we REALLY needed it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Conceptually, this is worthy thinking, but I believe there'd be technical issues with this.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But, at the same time, we gain the most benefit from Lucks, though at the low levels, it's probably difficult to notice.
[/ QUOTE ]
At low levels, you could say instead, "Our defenses add a slight bonus to Luck, which is our mainstay." Because think about it... 12% defense with no real slots and only trainers = 12% defense. That's nothing... we get hit 4 out of 10 instead of 5 out of 10. Pop a luck... and now you have some actual defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except that that's a misrepresentation of the facts and the math involved. Since +def is a additive property (ok, subtractive) to a function that's then treated as a percentage, it becomes successively more valuable the more total points you have. I'll give some examples.
If you're starting at a 50% chance to get his (even con minnion), then the non-def guy popping a 25% luck will reduce his chance to get hit from 1 in 2, to 1 in 4 (cuts it in half). The SR scrapper, who already has say 25% +def from various powers drops his chance to get hit from 1 in 4 to 1 in 20 (he's floored the mnion at 5%).
The 25% luck inspiration was 4.5 times as valuable to the SR scrapper then it was to the non-def using character. That's quite a bit more then SR adding a small benefit to a luck inspiration.
Of course, the non-def guy could just swallow two lucks and be at the same level, but the point is that the SR guy doesn't have to.
If you're going to use that sort of logic, then powers with increased accuracy are pointless because you can just pop an accuracy inspiration. And powers like practiced brawler are useless because you could just pop breakfrees. And slotting for damage in powers is irrelevant becuase you could just use red inspirations instead. And hey! Why on earth does anyone take stamina as a power? Just pop blues...
In a game like CoH, game balance has a lot to do with how powers combine together as a whole. SR means that you don't need to use purples as often. Just because you *can* use an inspiration to duplicate the power does not make the power useless.
However, SR certainly does need work. But it's not because it can be duplicated with purple pills. It's because of the lack of scaling to increased base to hit of opponents that causes it to have problems. Everything else is really just a band-aid IMO.
[ QUOTE ]
The 25% luck inspiration was 4.5 times as valuable to the SR scrapper then it was to the non-def using character. That's quite a bit more then SR adding a small benefit to a luck inspiration.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let say for the sake of argument I buy into this line of reasoning. Then, the true comparison is this:
SR can get more benefit out of a luck than a non-defense set can, i.e. invuln.
But invuln, with high resistance, gets more benefit out of resistance insps than SR does, also.
And here's the catch: invuln, with two lucks, can floor even minions. SR, no matter how many lucks its stacks on top of its defenses, cannot actually improve on that performance. Invuln can always *equal* SRs mitigation. In fact, with three of the smallest lucks that exist, invuln can equal SRs defensive mitigation against AVs, and SR cannot do better defensively.
On the other hand, its virtually impossible for SR to equal invuln's resistance mitigation numbers. Its difficult even to reach the ~20% resistance to non-smash/lethal that invuln has, much less the 60%+ smash/lethal defense that invuln has. The situation is not symmetric.
But in fact, I don't really buy into the train of thought, for this reason: its precisely because we get such a large benefit, on a relative basis, from lucks, that minimizes the overall benefits of the set.
At low levels, I am very often fighting without SR toggles at all - they are simply too low: they aren't worth the endurance cost. If I get into trouble, its actually better for an SR scrapper to pop a luck than attempt to turn on her toggles. The luck is faster, offers immediate base defense to all attacks, and until you get into the mid 20s, its essentially guaranteed to be better and stronger than all the SR defenses you can possibly possess *combined*.
That's wrong, wrong, wrong.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Having their protection increase as they get injured makes sense from a theoretical standpoint, but visceraly i've heard a lot of negative comments. They need a different sort of mitigation, but a lot of SR are disturbed that they are getting one which requires them to get hit - which the entire purpose of the powerset revolves around not getting hit.
Personally, I think it would be a better idea to add a PBAOE -recharge -slow debuff in there somewhere - that would have the same double-hit feedback of debuffs, and give the SR something of a 'bullet time' effect without requiring them to get torn up.
A no attack "Group-Friendly" Defender is like a "Team Friendly" basketball player who won't dribble, run, or shoot, under any circumstances. "I'm a PASSER."
[ QUOTE ]
I think it would be a better idea to add a PBAOE -recharge -slow debuff in there somewhere
[/ QUOTE ] Yeah, that would be cool, especially if they applied to everyone in the zone 
I think they essentially tried to apply the bullet time power - Quickness. The slow is in there as well with the +speed. In fact, Quickness is like bullet time ..to everyone on the map.
The PBAoE effect I think was already done with Ice's Chilling Embrace. I think Quickness is actually better...it's also got anti-slow...so it it's like bullet time against teammates as well.
[ QUOTE ]
If you're starting at a 50% chance to get his (even con minnion), then the non-def guy popping a 25% luck will reduce his chance to get hit from 1 in 2, to 1 in 4 (cuts it in half). The SR scrapper, who already has say 25% +def from various powers drops his chance to get hit from 1 in 4 to 1 in 20 (he's floored the mnion at 5%).
[/ QUOTE ]
Except that we were talking about newbs with no slots and trainers at best, NOT fully slotted-with-green SO people with 28% (effectively capped) defenses.
And the reality is that Arc is right -- it's not symmetric. Anyone can equal my best defense by popping a couple of pills. No other set works like that.
F
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think it would be a better idea to add a PBAOE -recharge -slow debuff in there somewhere
[/ QUOTE ] Yeah, that would be cool, especially if they applied to everyone in the zone
I think they essentially tried to apply the bullet time power - Quickness. The slow is in there as well with the +speed. In fact, Quickness is like bullet time ..to everyone on the map.
The PBAoE effect I think was already done with Ice's Chilling Embrace. I think Quickness is actually better...it's also got anti-slow...so it it's like bullet time against teammates as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Quickness would be a true SR jewel if it reduced activation time. As it is, its overall effect is much lower than the tohit buffs from invincibility, the endurance recovery of QR, and the everything of DA.
The *concept* of quickness is a good one. The implementation limitation is what borks it.
CE's PBAoE slow is a much more powerful effect overall, although it does have the disadvantage of being degraded by the purple patch, something quickness is inherently unaffected by.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
I think Quickness is actually better...it's also got anti-slow...so it it's like bullet time against teammates as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except it's not bullet time, it's softball time. A +20% to recharge without end cost and without activation is, certainly, a benefit. It is not a benefit that significantly increases our ability to withstand incoming attacks. At all. Now I know as scrappers we're supposed to be more concerned with offense, and that's fine. But we have a secondary for a reason. And after I-5, and after ED, our secondary serves very little purpose. As has been said, the fact that the combination of 6 of the nine powers can be replicated with a single inspiration is just silly.
I do just fine in I-5. I do just fine because of my primary, which gives me survivability as well as doing a decent amount of damage. Between TOF, my darkness master epic pool, and Siphon Life, I can use 'offensive' powers to survive quite effectively. That's nice. But I'd like to think that my secondary serves a purpose.
I think on test I'll run without toggles for awhile, and see if things seem significantly harder. I don't think they will. Well, I might. Don't know how much playtime I'll get in before it goes live.
You should add +def debuff resistance also with the +resistance specail.
It always seems that when you get hit with SR, everything hits you at once, its not spread out evenly & thats why its 1 shots all the time. Bosses will hit your once & def debuff n then tap you n kill u.
for all the ED resistance # Click here where i tested it on test
[ QUOTE ]
Except it's not bullet time, it's softball time.
[/ QUOTE ] lmao.
No, it's not "bullet" time, but when the poster asked about making enemies -slow and -recharge, it occured to me, that's exactly what they were trying to simulate...in manner of speaking.
Real 'bullet-time' was also about +DEF as you could see bullets and dodge them. Quickness doesn't simulate the increased avoidance.
[ QUOTE ]
CE's PBAoE slow is a much more powerful effect overall
[/ QUOTE ] Perhaps. It's kind of hard to compare on a wholistic level since CE doesn't work on mobs out of range. I also find the +speed very valuable for running from fights and chasing down cry-babies in the arena (always play with no travel powers). But certainly for melee, CE is better.
The problem with the posters of having a PBAoE -recharge -slow is that it is fundamentally different (just talking to myself here). "bullet-time" doesn't debuff your enemies, it buffs you. So Quickness is a better mechanic for simulating BT as opposed to a CE type of effect. But they can't really give us BT or it might easily be too good. And the real obstacle, as you point out, is as we talked about way back when, you can't speed up the Activation.
I still like my idea of only slightly boosting defense and giving a comparable amount of RES...greatly protection you have now...half being DEF an half RES.
Also this would fix ED problems because with the power providing equal amounts of both you could grab a 3/3 slot combo. 3 DEF/3 RES.
Something similar should also prolly be done with ice...due to the slippy nature blows would kinda slide off instead of hitting directly.
Like I said this should simulate SR fairly effectively seeing as your fast enough to dodge many blows while others "just" tagged you....such as the cut spiderman reciveved fighting the green goblin in Spiderman the movie :P. He still got hit but got his arm sliced slightly instead of a direct hit.
The extra resistance should also be enough to help vs AV's and such.
I would like to see around 30% resists enhanced. Meaning around 15% base...to complement the a value of around 40% defense...IF you took every defense power and slotted it out.
I'm sure the numbers need tweaking but still....my numbers might actually be a lil high...I dunno.
Forgive me if this has been said before, but I didn't read the whole thread.
Giving damage resistance to SR is like throwing a drowning man a fire extinguisher.
Why can't we just have a reasonable level of defense?
[ QUOTE ]
I would like to see around 30% resists enhanced. Meaning around 15% base...to complement the a value of around 40% defense...IF you took every defense power and slotted it out.
[/ QUOTE ]
To get 30% resists, you'd need a base of about 19%, not 15%. No more 6-slotting, remember? Similarly, no 40% defense either.
Best SR (melee/ranged) defense in I6: 27.5% 3-slot even SOs, 28% 6-slot even SOs.
40% is, as low as that number is, now only a fond memory. FF+dodge+hover+weave all 3-slot for defense is still only 36.5% In mitigation terms, thats about equal to 73% resistances.
Here's invuln, 3-slotting just UNY, RPD, TI, and tough: 67.3% res (smash/lethal). Mitigation during dull pain windows: 76.6%, and there's a self heal in there, and it only requires taking one (really two) power pool powers, compared to the two (really, *four*) power pool powers in the SR build above.
Still looking at SR vs Invuln vs Regen in the New World Order, but so far, my informal look-see doesn't lead me to believe that SR is getting a net boost relative to the other scrapper sets due to ED (but it is getting one - a difficult to account for one - with the passive resists).
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you're starting at a 50% chance to get his (even con minnion), then the non-def guy popping a 25% luck will reduce his chance to get hit from 1 in 2, to 1 in 4 (cuts it in half). The SR scrapper, who already has say 25% +def from various powers drops his chance to get hit from 1 in 4 to 1 in 20 (he's floored the mnion at 5%).
[/ QUOTE ]
Except that we were talking about newbs with no slots and trainers at best, NOT fully slotted-with-green SO people with 28% (effectively capped) defenses.
[/ QUOTE ]
Eh? Let's be consistent here though. Arcana just talked about how res inspirations weren't as useful because we couldn't possibly get the 60-80% resistance values that resistance sets would have. They're not going to have them if we're assuming low levels and training enhancements either though...
It's kinda irrelevant for the really low levels anyway. How many scrappers slot their defences early in the game (or even take them?). Most are going to get their first three attacks ASAP. Then they're worrying about travel powers. Then they're working on the health line. Somewhere in there, they'll add some slots to their defenses in their secondaries.
A +res guy is no more or less effective then a +def guy if neither of them has their toggles turned on because the benefit in comparison to the end cost isn't worth it. And you find that happening a heck of a lot during the first 12-15 levels regardless of which one you're using.
It's an irrelevant point.
[ QUOTE ]
And the reality is that Arc is right -- it's not symmetric. Anyone can equal my best defense by popping a couple of pills. No other set works like that.
F
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree completely on that issue. I never said it was "fair" the way they were set up. I was simply responding to the false statement that SR didn't stack significantly with purple inspirations.
I agree with your point. What I don't agree with is the use of hyperbole and false statements to try to convince people you're right. There is a valid enough case for the discrepancies between +res and +def already. When you toss in bogus facts, you only weaken your argument.
I also absolutely don't understand why in game mechanics +def is considered numerically to be worth double +res for balance purposes, yet the bonuses from the relevant inspirations are totally wrong. Each level of +res inspiration should be worth twice as much +res as the same level +def inspiration. Why on earth they did it backwards is beyond me.
I even agree with your assessment. They should reduce the amount of +def granted by use of a purple, and then adjust the amount given by an orange to met the equivalents used in the rest of the game (every point of +def should equal 2 points in +res).
I was *only* responding to the falsehood of your statement. You don't need to misrepresent the facts to successfully argue your case. You're already right... 
I'm sorry but I made no false statement. I think we've gotten confused. Let's review.
Mieux said:
[ QUOTE ]
But, at the same time, we gain the most benefit from Lucks, though at the low levels, it's probably difficult to notice.
[/ QUOTE ]
Notice: "at the low levels"... he was talking about low levels and that how much we benefit from luck is not as noticeable there. My (admittedly flippant) response was that, heck, at the low levels Luck is so much better than our total defense it's like our defense is the minor inspiration instead... by saying:
[ QUOTE ]
At low levels, you could say instead, "Our defenses add a slight bonus to Luck, which is our mainstay." Because think about it... 12% defense with no real slots and only trainers = 12% defense. That's nothing... we get hit 4 out of 10 instead of 5 out of 10. Pop a luck... and now you have some actual defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
You then said,
[ QUOTE ]
Except that that's a misrepresentation of the facts and the math involved. Since +def is a additive property (ok, subtractive) to a function that's then treated as a percentage, it becomes successively more valuable the more total points you have. I'll give some examples.
If you're starting at a 50% chance to get his (even con minnion), then the non-def guy popping a 25% luck will reduce his chance to get hit from 1 in 2, to 1 in 4 (cuts it in half). The SR scrapper, who already has say 25% +def from various powers drops his chance to get hit from 1 in 4 to 1 in 20 (he's floored the mnion at 5%).
[/ QUOTE ]
So you were talking about a guy with SOs while I was responding flippantly to a comment Mieux made about low level characters.
If you're going to argue about the math with me, that's fine, but let's at least make sure we are talking about the same thing.
In terms of actual math, unless they have changed the formula, minion to hit = 50%. FF is 12% base. With two trainers it's +10% or 13.2 base. This drops a minion's to hit from 50/100 to 36.8/100. Admittedly since I was doing "out of 10", I rounded up to 4/10. Pop a Luck on top of that, now you're at 38.8% base, or you have almost floored the minion (he's at 12.2% to hit). I didn't even say what the with-luck numbers were. I just said, "Now you have some actual defense."
I stand by my statement. At low levels when you have few slots and only trainers, Luck is a much better defense than our entire powerset. That's all I was talking about.
F
[ QUOTE ]
To get 30% resists, you'd need a base of about 19%, not 15%.
[/ QUOTE ]
My mistake I mistakenly used the 33% enhancement in my head :P.
[ QUOTE ]
No more 6-slotting, remember? Similarly, no 40% defense either.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm suggesting having 40% DEF with 3 slotting or 6 slotting if they exclude DEF/RES from ED.
[ QUOTE ]
40% is, as low as that number is, now only a fond memory. FF+dodge+hover+weave all 3-slot for defense is still only 36.5% In mitigation terms, thats about equal to 73% resistances.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm of the opinion that RES is far more powerful due to the many variables involved in DEF.
[ QUOTE ]
Here's invuln, 3-slotting just UNY, RPD, TI, and tough: 67.3% res (smash/lethal). Mitigation during dull pain windows: 76.6%, and there's a self heal in there, and it only requires taking one (really two) power pool powers, compared to the two (really, *four*) power pool powers in the SR build above.
[/ QUOTE ]
KK but if SR had 30% RES and 40% DEF it would be alot closer to that mark....since I beleive RES to be more powerful I would have to give around 60% def and 30% res....But I was trying to compensate for the lowest common denominator....even con minions with no buffs.
I'm also talking about SR getting that 40% with its own powers...not including pool powers....same with RES.
[ QUOTE ]
I also absolutely don't understand why in game mechanics +def is considered numerically to be worth double +res for balance purposes, yet the bonuses from the relevant inspirations are totally wrong.
[/ QUOTE ] The answer to this questions reveals very fundamental aspects of this game. It also explains why +DEF has such challenges in actual game play and why the devs seem to struggle with it.
If I understand your question, it's basically:
Why is 10% +DEF equal to 20% +RES?
Because of this golden rule: three minions = one hero.
10% +DEF against a base to hit of 50% is statistically equal to 20% +RES. 10% +DEF reduces an even level minions incoming damage by 20%. But the comparision has few other pivot points. Because attacks have secondary effects, +DEF provides us with a sort immunity. Can't be debuffed by an attack if it doesn't it. So on this level, one might argue that +DEF is better than statisically equivalent +RES. This argument, while true, is arguably overshadowed by in-game relaties. One is the alpha strike and survivability. +RES gives you more time to react and be healed.
There are also many pro and con arguments depending on how you implement the system. The fact that nearly all attacks have some S/L componenet makes Temp Inv provide a wide range of coverage where Foc Fight leaves /SR with some gapping holes on defense.
There are others, but I'll let others chime in if they so choose.
Defense is also slightly better than resists because of multi typed attacks.
25% defense versus a smashing type attack is equivalent to 50% resist to the same type of attack but if you split the damage type to be smashing AND energy the resist's damage mitigation is halved while the defense's remains the same. At least I'm pretty sure that's how it works
[ QUOTE ]
KK but if SR had 30% RES and 40% DEF it would be alot closer to that mark....since I beleive RES to be more powerful I would have to give around 60% def and 30% res....But I was trying to compensate for the lowest common denominator....even con minions with no buffs.
[/ QUOTE ]
As much as I think SR needs a buff, 60% def and 30% res would be massively overpowered relative to the other sets. Most people seem to have innate prejudices either that Defense is superior to Resistance, and thus Defense numbers should lag Resistance numbers to balance them, or vice versa Resistance is inherently superior to Defense, so Defense numbers should be much higher than Resistance numbers to compensate. The truth is that for reasonable levels of both, Defense and Resistance have reasonably balanced pros and cons to where such tweaking isn't really necessary to balance their net mitigation benefit. At least, its sufficiently balanced that I think anyone who wants to grant Defense or Resistance higher values than the other has a high burden of proof to overcome.
If you were attempting to balance with even level minions, then about 40% defense and no resistance at all gets pretty close: with 30% resistances on top, we'd need slightly less defense (about 37% or so). See my sig for some I5 calibrated comparisons between SR and the other scrapper mitigation sets, particularly against even level minions.
The mitigation gap, in I5 terms, between SR and invuln and regen is on the order of 5-10% defense. In I6 terms, I don't exactly know yet. It might be closer numerically, but it might also be much harder to acquire the additional defense, in effect widening the gap overall.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
This's a horrid thing to say, I know. Apologies in advance.
I turned to SR because, let's face it, SR was fun! Risk-taking, adrenalin-guzzling challenge!
With CoV, I've given up on SR. My SR hit 50 just before I-5 spayed her. Now the new ATs in CoV are too much fun for me to hang around the Defense ghetto.
I first complained to the Devs about SR's PvP performance back in July when I-4 came out. I predicted in August that SR, FF and Ice would end up extinct. Yup! They just cut Ice tankers from CoV. Before I-5 I complained that SR didn't feel like the Flash or Spider-Man... more like Robin. With I-5 I was demoted to "Lois."
Rather than helping, the Devs have cut SR's defenses in half with I-5 and another third with I-6. They have made my signature power (Maneuvers) laughable. Yes, they have given SRs some resistance to defense debuffs (linked to passives not otherwise worth taking) and this weird resistance thing. Yes they upped our damage, but ED neutralizes that and then some.
Finally, ED took away the one thing that gave me hope: stacked PB. I promise to try SR in the post-ED arena but I'm not at all hopeful.
I'm playing CoV ATs that offer resistance and actively -avoiding- defense. I'm turning up my nose at all defensive powers. They're too easily debuffed or countered. Only resistance matters.
Stalkers are fun! Brutes are fun! SR isn't fun anymore. And if the Devs were going to change that, they would have by now.
Call me when SRs have Invincibility, a small but reliable passive resistance power (at least to Smash/Lethal,) the passives consolidated into a single power and some healing put into Quickness. Call me when Aim+Buildup and Luck insps have been cut in half. Maybe I'll stop Smashing and Stalking long enough to try it.