[ QUOTE ]
How powerful was Regen? We routinely tanked AVs, Giant Monsters and the Hamidon for hours on end with no external buffage. The maximum healing rate of an I5 Regen is around 50% of what an I2 Regen could acomplish with 6 slots in IH and one in FH.[/LIST]
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That almost seems insane to this newbie!
I am Jack's shocked and awed Regen brain.
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You know the interesting thing is they are saying we're lying by saying that it never had Psi Defense aren't they? I mean I've yet to see a regenner post anything but that it most certainly did have Psi defense and yet here they are saying it never did. Interesting.
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Just popping in to clear up a misconception. This bit is really a semantic issue. We have an Attribute that applies +Defense to Psionic. We usually refer to this as "Psionic Defense" and do not consider other forms of +Defense that MAY cover Psionics. Turning on The Way Back Machine (thanks to Mr. Peabody and Sherman for allowing its use!) to the very first Live version of the data, I see that Moment of Glory did, in fact, offer +Defense to EVERYTHING because it modified Base Defense. Smashing, Lethal, Ranged, Hamidon -- everything. That was TOO effective. So, at some point (I'm not going through hundreds of revisions to fin out when) MoG was changed so that it only covered the bits desired.
So, if we were lying to you, it was an error of omission, rather than an act of malice. When we get a PM saying "Why did you remove Psionic Defense from MoG?" we check specifically for +Psi Def. Sometimes we have the time to do more in depth reseach into changes, but most often we do not.
Whether or not the 'Hole' in Psionic protection makes the power 'gimped' isn't a discussion I am going to get into, however.
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You could just address MoG vs Unstoppable. Seems like they have a similar purpose, except that Unstoppable is completely superior because you can be healed.
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You know the interesting thing is they are saying we're lying by saying that it never had Psi Defense aren't they? I mean I've yet to see a regenner post anything but that it most certainly did have Psi defense and yet here they are saying it never did. Interesting.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just popping in to clear up a misconception. This bit is really a semantic issue. We have an Attribute that applies +Defense to Psionic. We usually refer to this as "Psionic Defense" and do not consider other forms of +Defense that MAY cover Psionics. Turning on The Way Back Machine (thanks to Mr. Peabody and Sherman for allowing its use!) to the very first Live version of the data, I see that Moment of Glory did, in fact, offer +Defense to EVERYTHING because it modified Base Defense. Smashing, Lethal, Ranged, Hamidon -- everything. That was TOO effective. So, at some point (I'm not going through hundreds of revisions to fin out when) MoG was changed so that it only covered the bits desired.
So, if we were lying to you, it was an error of omission, rather than an act of malice. When we get a PM saying "Why did you remove Psionic Defense from MoG?" we check specifically for +Psi Def. Sometimes we have the time to do more in depth reseach into changes, but most often we do not.
Whether or not the 'Hole' in Psionic protection makes the power 'gimped' isn't a discussion I am going to get into, however.
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I was running the hydra portal mission. I activated MoG. They never missed once with thier toxic spit. I didnt take much damage from each one, but every hydra in the group hit me, and took me down. This is my first (only regener) this high. I don't recall fighting too much toxic foes prior to this. Maybe Devoured (DE bosses). If you changed the base DEF to all, to specific damage types, was toxic forgotten? or purposfully left out? (assuming the power always was waek vs toxic)
Personally, I really like MoG. I only got it in i5. Only draw backs are the psi weakness, and caltrops....grrrr i hate those caltrops...only LTs should get them. The "crash" at the end isnt much, IMO, after so long I keep an eye on my status bar, when the MoG icon drops, I pop Dull Pain and Reconstruction, almost at full HP. Of course these are chargeed, as they are useless while MoG is running.
Lazy, there's currently no such thing as TOXIC defense. Since the 'new and deproved' MoG now only gives SMASHING/LETHAL/COLD/FIRE/ENERGY/NEGATIVE defense, instead of before where it used to buff MELEE/RANGE/AOE defense as well, it no longer can defend against Toxic typed attacks. It probably got 'extra' resistance because of this, but that doesn't tend to help much since it nearly caps all your resists anyway.
This is more of an innate problem with the way defense works than a problem with MoG itself - until Force Field got typed with MELEE/RANGE, even it couldn't defend against Toxic damage.
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So, if we were lying to you, it was an error of omission, rather than an act of malice.
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I just want to point out the difference between a lie and a mistake is deliberance. Too many people say others "deliberately lied" as if there is any other form of lying. You can't accidentally lie. You either purposefully mislead someone, or accidentally mislead, but lying is always deliberate. 
I never thought the devs were lying... if anything it just ticked us off because we seemed to know more about their own game than they did.
The MoG "nerf" happened when CuppaJo posted what powers gave DEF to what. When we noticed that MoG was lacking Psi and Toxic DEF, someone commented that it must have had BASE DEF like PFF. I wish I could find the thread, whoever that poster was, hit the nail on the head.
Edit:
Now admit that you nerfed Integration (along with all other mez protection).
Currently roleplaying, badgehunting, and laughing at the PvPers of CoX. lol, PvP.
Truedusk - Human Rogue
Yes, it's so reassuring to know that the developers of this game apparently have written their code so poorly that even they can't find a simple answer in it.
Or, the alternative, where they care so little about the playerbase that they're willing to give an answer that goes straight in contradiction with what the playerbase has been stating for months.
Yah, that reassures me. Glad they weren't just hiding something.
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thanks castle for clearing that up.
could you maybe talk to the others about putting things (like this) in the patch notes? there have become ... well, a lot, of undocumented power changes. sometimes it just looks like they're trying to slip one by us.
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Yes, while you're at it can you put the new 'feature' of Headsplitter where it simply fires off without either hitting OR missing people that are running away, sideways, or in any direction that isn't right towards you?
I love that new feature.
Yesterday i used to watch closer the Regen pool of Stalkers... I saw that Quick Reco disapeared, and that IH was no more toggle...
Then i realized they had nerfed IH for scrappers too... (I didn't played COH since start of September)...
Damn, regen scrappers sucks so much now, and i cannot even respect to reslot my powers.... Crazy how they nerfed the things.... Something like... useless...
:disgusted:
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So, if we were lying to you, it was an error of omission, rather than an act of malice.
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I just want to point out the difference between a lie and a mistake is deliberance. Too many people say others "deliberately lied" as if there is any other form of lying. You can't accidentally lie. You either purposefully mislead someone, or accidentally mislead, but lying is always deliberate.
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Since the power didn't change itself someone changed it. And then that someone (could be a group of someones) also didn't post the change in patch notes so the players could know. Thus at some point it was a choice to not tell the players this had happened and thus it was deliberately deceptive on some level.
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I never thought the devs were lying... if anything it just ticked us off because we seemed to know more about their own game than they did.
The MoG "nerf" happened when CuppaJo posted what powers gave DEF to what. When we noticed that MoG was lacking Psi and Toxic DEF, someone commented that it must have had BASE DEF like PFF. I wish I could find the thread, whoever that poster was, hit the nail on the head.
Edit:
Now admit that you nerfed Integration (along with all other mez protection).
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I was that poster, but I've looked and they've deleted the thread where I spoke of my tests. And the change was most definately an Issue 5 change.
Cool nice to see the winner of the cookie. Yeah it happened in i5 at the same time as the fix for def stacking issues like SR and FF.
Currently roleplaying, badgehunting, and laughing at the PvPers of CoX. lol, PvP.
Truedusk - Human Rogue
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thanks castle for clearing that up.
could you maybe talk to the others about putting things (like this) in the patch notes? there have become ... well, a lot, of undocumented power changes. sometimes it just looks like they're trying to slip one by us.
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Yes, while you're at it can you put the new 'feature' of Headsplitter where it simply fires off without either hitting OR missing people that are running away, sideways, or in any direction that isn't right towards you?
I love that new feature.
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That's an old feature, actually. It was around first when the "hit running foes" code got put in.
I like the new feature of Soaring Dragon / Disembowel. If you hit folks and they get Knocked Upwards, you can't hit them with your other attacks until they come back down (out of range). ESPECIALLY if you slot SD / Disembowel for Knockback, they're out of range for 1-2 seconds now.
Why would I slot for Knockback again????? Oh yeah, cuz Statesmonkey thinks I should be more diverse.
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That's an old feature, actually. It was around first when the "hit running foes" code got put in.
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Oh, I know, but even though they fixed it it's back. It's kind of like how some tanker powers suddenly reverted to knockBACK instead of knockDOWN for awhile in issue 4 or 5 somewhere. Makes me think something's wrong with their development process somewhere.
Like they're randomly using crap old code when working on new stuff... or something?
Maybe they can err and inadvertently slip the 'instant healing is a toggle' 'bug' back in for issue 7...
They do that, and the servers will be brought down until that bug is fixed. Regen would be too powerful otherwise.
Why? Cuz Devs & fanbois have said so.
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
Ahoy regenners, I thought you'd might like my latest attempt at overwrought fiction!
Behold: A I5 and ED fanfic, Starring Scrapper and Tank. (Or a very long way to go for a stupid pun)
O_o
Kung Ru - 50++ MA/Regen Scrapper
Kalleesta - 50 Necro/Dark MM
Hidden Justice - 44 Kin/Psy Defender
Altaholic
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Since the power didn't change itself someone changed it. And then that someone (could be a group of someones) also didn't post the change in patch notes so the players could know. Thus at some point it was a choice to not tell the players this had happened and thus it was deliberately deceptive on some level.
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You're assuming organizational competence on the part of Cryptic Studios. That level of ability is pretty much unheard of - if you've got a dev or PM that can maintain that level of understanding over all aspects of their code, latch onto them, bear their children, and never EVER let them leave your group - they're mythical creatures, rare and wiley and soon-to-be either promoted or burnt out due to exhaustion.
More likely, someone could have simply forgot that they had changed it, or it got pushed down in priority, or the e-mail thread the devs put together was mis-read, or they didn't get the notes up in time for the realease, or any other mydrid of reasons. The phrase "do not attribute to malice what can just as easily be contributed to just about any other emotional state" is a phrase to live by, especially when you're documenting code. (Which is what I do for a living). Things like this happen in every single release, be it beta, RTM, post-rtm doc refresh, point updates, and so on, that I've worked on or heard about someone working on.
That being said, yeah - many devs think that it's ok to not document features, or don't really give it much thought. That's why you don't want to have devs be in charge of documentation or otherwise being the 'face' of your company - things like this happen on a regular basis. They find it very difficult to think of things from the perspective of the end user. On some larger teams I've been on, there has actually been a single person whose sole job it is to tell the devs that certian ideas are dumb, because end users don't think about the product the same way that the developers do. They're called User Advocates, at least here'bouts.
EDIT - oh, also, from a doc standpoint, the choice not to document something rarely comes from a viewpoint of deception - it tends to come from a system of priorities based around the priorities of Quality, Time, and Resources. (aka "Good, Fast, Cheap - choose any two").
<ul type="square">
Quality - how easy something is to read, and how legible it is.
Time - the amount of time the writers have to actually research and put together the docset.
Resources - how many writers you have on the project, and how much access they have to the developers and builds in order to gain the information necessary to doc the product.[/list]
Quite simply, the decision to nodoc usually comes when you're under a deadline and have to start chopping features out of your docset - you simply don't have time to (say) research all of the changes done to the entire product, so you prioritize on the features based on coverage and impact. And by implication, features that don't impact many users tend not to get doc'ed. And yes, undocumented features can stay undocumented for several product cycles, especially if those writing the docs are not intimately involved with using the product and reading the boards. It's a communication issue that's endemic to the entire computing industry, and it's an issue that ought to be addressed - but it's not something specific to Cryptic.
EDIT II - Your argument is also based on the assumption that the doc people have made a promise to document all changes to a feature. They don't, for the above reasons: there's no realisitic way to actually do that, due to time, resource, and quality issues. The attempt that doc people make is to hit all the main features so that the average user has a good understanding of how to use your product. Complete feature coverage is rarely achieved. It's called the "80/20 rule" - you should focus 80% of your energy on the 20% of the features that most users use the most often. The remaining 20% covers the less-used 80% of the product. Although realisically you do spend more than 20% of your time documenting the rest, ratios like that are discussed on a fairly regular basis. This is also known as "hitting the top 10".
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Your argument is also based on the assumption that the doc people have made a promise to document all changes to a feature. They don't,
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Nope my arguement was based on the fact that they claimed no change had been made. Not that they would document all changes. Quite different actually. Also they have come back since and agreed that a change had been made and was missed because of sementic differences in what we call defense and what they were calling it basically. They changed it from base defense, thus working against everything to typed defense working against S/L, Ene, Ele. Not toxic not psi. They made this decsion because they felt it was overpowered as base defense. If that was a topic and reason for the change then really it wasn't just a small tweak that some Dev did on his own but a choice by the heads to have it made. Why it was not documented at that time we can guess at but I was not talking about that but rather the first denial of any change in its defense.
It's one thing to miss something in your documentation but when asked to then not know is quite another. It's even worse when you don't check but rather just give the negative answer. CJ surely asked the devs so she is not likely at fault but whichever dev gave her the unverified no certainly blew it.
Rise from your grave!
just wanted to show you guys this post with some solid build advice for regens from over a year ago. Oh how times change.
From Elvish:/
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Fast Healing - Slotting Fast Healing, or slotting Health, is not an efficient tactic. Both of them 6 slotted with Heals are completely negligible when compared with Instant Healing, which is your Core power for the Regen Primary. I recommend not slotting Fast Healing at all, and not even getting Health as a Regen Scrapper.
Reconstruction - This is a great recovery tool for all levels. It will be what keeps you alive from 1-28, and it is still a useful tool for "Oh ****!" moments after. I recommend putting 3 Heals total in it if you are running perma-Hasten, 1 Recharge 2 Heals if you are not running Hasten.
Quick Recovery - 6 slot this as soon as you can, it is your friend. If you are running a toggle heavy build, you will also want to pick up Stamina. If you have both, 6 slot Quick Recovery first before you put any slots into Stamina, because each individual slot in Quick Recovery provides more marginal benefit than each slot in Stamina. I would recommend leaving Stamina at its single slot until 38+ unless you are having Endurance troubles.
Dull Pain - A powerful tool for any Regen Scrapper. Its primary benefit is not as a heal, but in fact its ability to bolster the regeneration rate for Instant Healing. Instant Healing heals in ticks of 5% of your max health. By increasing your max health, Dull Pain effectively makes Instant Healing heal in ticks of 6.66% Health. Nota Bena: for more Instant Healing information and slotting, see the Instant Healing section. I recommend slotting Dull Pain with 3 slots Recharge if you are running perma-Hasten, 5-6 slots Recharge if you are not using Hasten.
Integration - Get this as soon as you can at level 16. I recommend 2 slots of Endurance Cost Reduction in this power, regardless of your build. Having total immunity from all Status effects is a powerful defense.
Resilience - This power is an important part of your defense. No, it is not as amazing as Instant Healing or even Dull Pain, but I still think of it as a pre-requisite for a great Regen Scrapper. With only 1 Damage Resistance slot in it, it provides 9% resistance to smash/lethal damage, and permanent protection from Disorient Status effect, Auto power. I recommend getting this early in your build, whenever you can work it in.
Instant Healing - This is the cornerstone of the Regen line. It regenerates your health in 5% ticks. Slotting Heal SOs in this power will not increase how much it heals, they will decrease the time between ticks. I recommend using Dull Pain in conjunction with this power, as Dull Pain will increase the amount healed per tick to 6.66% from 5%. The standard complement of slots for this power is 2 Endurance Cost Reduction, 4 Heal. If you have Endurance problems or do not run Stamina, I recommend a 3 End Cost, 3 Heal split.
Revive - This is a "for fun" power only, as it simply does what an inspiration would. Get it at 49 if you really want to, or if it fits your character concept.
Moment of Glory - This power negates everything that makes you a Regen scrapper. When it is activated, none of your powers will work. Read: no Fast Healing, no Health (if you actually took it against my recommendation), no Reconstruction, no Dull Pain, no Instant Healing. It will boost your resistances and defense very high, but drop your health to 10%. As it stands currently (until they change it), I strongly recommend you do not get this power.
Power Pools:
Fighting - Get Boxing and forget about it, if you are a "drawn weapon" Scrapper, because it makes you put away your weapon every time you use it. You may want to slot it out if you are MA or DA. Tough and Weave are great additions to your defense. A 6 slotted Tough with 1 slot in Resilience provides 42% resistance to smash/lethal damage. Weave is great for boosting Defense as well, I recommend 6 slotting it.
Fitness - If you are running an Endurance heavy Primary, or running a lot of toggles, I highly recommend picking up Stamina to help with this. Since you are Regen, do not get Health, pick up Swift and Hurdle instead, but don't slot them at all unless it fits your character concept.
Speed - Hasten is a great power for any Primary, but Katana and Broadsword users will see the greatest benefit from this 58% Recharge Reduction for all of your powers. The 5% Defense boost is icing. If you choose to go the perma-Hasten route, 6 slots is enough to get Hasten to recycle and auto-fire before it runs out. Nota Bena: recently it has come to my attention through testing that you *do* still get the Endurance penalty from Hasten wearing off. This penalty occurs when the 1st Hasten wears off, not when the 2nd Hasten is activated. However, if you are running Quick Recovery and Stamina, the penalty is negligible. Super Speed is a fun and useful power, providing extreme speed and a decent Stealth Boost. Super Speed maxes out at 85mph with 2 Run Speed SOs. With 1 Run Speed and Swift, you are close enough that it doesn-t matter.
Leaping - Combat Jumping is a decent 5% Defense boost and protection from Immobilization, and Combat Jumping used in conjunction with Hurdle is like a mini-travel power all on its own. You do not need Acrobatics as a Regen unless you are building for PvP and want the double Hold/Knockdown resist. Super Jump is an extremely fast and fun travel power. Super Jump maxes out at 85mph with 3 Jump SOs, however the 3rd SO only adds 12 yards to your distance, so if you have Hurdle, only slot it with 2 Jump SOs.
Leadership - I recommend against getting this power pool as a scrapper. Scrappers get the lowest benefit from these powers, so it is simply not worth getting this pool unless it fits your concept.
Concealment - I recommend against getting this power pool unless it fits your play style or character concept. Stealth provides a 7.5% Defense bonus, but lowers your run speed. If you're taking it for Defense, you're better off with Combat Jumping (5% Defense and Immobilization protection). Nota Bena: Stacking Stealth with Super Speed will give you Invisibility to any mob except Snipers, which may be a good enough reason for you to take this pool.
Teleportation - I recommend against taking this power pool unless you are an Invulnerability scrapper (which you aren't, you're Regen!) or if it fits your character concept. I used this power on my first Scrapper and it does not flow well with your other Scrapper powers, and provides no extra defense of any kind (unlike Speed and Leaping).
Flight - This is another power pool I recommend against unless it fits your character concept or you just really want to Fly. Fly maxes at 85mph with 4 Flight Speed SOs.
Presence - If you want to get this pool, you are playing the wrong kind of Scrapper. Re-roll as an Invulnerability if you want to be a mini-tank for your group. Take this only if it fits your specific play style or character concept.
Medicine - I recommend taking this pool only if it fits your specific play style or concept, it is not a very effective tool for a Scrapper to have.
I am not going to list any example builds because different people have different opinions about when to take such powers as Resilience, Dull Pain, Tough, and Weave. I highly recommend you get all four of these powers, but I leave the choice of when you get them and slot them to you, the intelligent Regen Scrapper.
PM me any specific questions, or post them here and I will answer as best I can.
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From Havoc:
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Fast Healing: Don't slot the power till post 40 but if you have the slots post 40 do it. Why? Because when you get mezzed this can be the difference between the 2 seconds of you living and dying while you hit super speed and zoom out till your other toggles come back. It's a strong skill that some folks under utilize.
Reconstruction: I put 1 slot into it and I'll rip it out after respec. Post 30 it lost value to me greatly. It's a decent power but you don't need it to be as powerful as it was. It's useful in surviving Alpha Strikes for everything else I simply get out of range for a sec then get back in the fight. IH is that good for you.
QR: Dead on here but I recommend 6 slotting Stamina I need that end as a Spines Scrapper and I think I'll need it as a BS scrapper too. Some may not like Dark Melee with Dark Consumption. Other lower end cost powers may similarly not need it but for my expensive AoE's and toggles got to have it.
Dull Pain: 4 slot it with recharge with Hasten and make it always on. Too powerful not to.
Integration: 1 slot it the second slot is better spent in Stamina for the quick recovery.
Resilience: Don't slot it till post 40 if you have the slots. It's a great power you should take as soon as you can but it's like icing on the cake as far as slotting goes.
Instant Healing: Ok with Spines I've got an advantage ... shiat dies fast around me so I don't have to slot this as heavily as some ... 2 end and 3 Health is all I've ever needed and with Perma-Dull pain that's all it takes. It's that potent and is the corner stone of the set.
Revive/Mog: What Elvish said.
Power Pools:
Fighting: What Elvish said.
Fitness: If you are spines you better get stamina you will need it. Dark may be able to go without but remember your toggles are the most expensive toggles there are with Integration and IH.
Leaping: I find this set a waste for Regen scrappers take it if you like leaping and hate Super Speed otherwise take Super Speed for the ability to run in and out of combat for quick recovery. Remember for 4-6 seconds of leaving combat you can be back up to pre-fight stats and ready go to for more. SS is much better.
Leadership/Teleportation/Flight/Medicine: Agree with Elvish
Presence: Ok here I'll diverge. Regen Scrappers can sure as [censored] tank! If you've seen me in battle you've seen a Regen scrapper who can tank. 137 pulls, soloed AV's, I've done it and I'm not Invul. You just got to know how to. Takes a little strategy but you can. Personally though don't get Provoke. I don't think you need it.
Stealth: I like stealth and won't knock it. It's handy for getting to key objectives and surviving when you only have 6 minutes to complete a task
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Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
*sits down by the fire*
You mean regen used to have "Health regeneration?" Wowwwwww
*looks all stary-eyed*
Darn Fanboy. I can honestly say I had started to forget how frikken uber Regen could be. 50% Sm, Le; 25% Me; Le defense; 2400% Regeneration.
It does make you wonder what the heck were the devs thinking? 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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It does make you wonder what the heck were the devs thinking?
[/ QUOTE ]
That they were trying to make a superhero, not the jacked up fitness pool secondary we got now. 
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Darn Fanboy. I can honestly say I had started to forget how frikken uber Regen could be. 50% Sm, Le; 25% Me; Le defense; 2400% Regeneration.
It does make you wonder what the heck were the devs thinking?
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i can remember doing a TF in issue 4 with a really good ingame friend of mine. We had a 4 man team and were running one of the shard TFs. About halfway through, I could tell he was typing something in a hallway just after a team wipe.
His message? "you know, 5 months ago, either one of us on our own could have destroyed that room."
I don't know who to feel more sorry for: the people who never played an old Regen or the people who did.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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Thanks Castle. Every AT should be so lucky to have a rep like you. Your attention to community concerns is exemplary.
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scrappers will never get a rep. we'd tear that guy a new ahole in about an hour.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲